Italy v England - March 15th

First topic message reminder :

Thought i'd get one of these up and running and I haven't spotted another.

Firstly, congratulations to the boys for a superb performance against Wales, backing up a strong showing versus Ireland. Will the usual complacency be an issue this year? The lat two occasions we've faced Italy it's actually been both a poor performance and a lot closer.

Any changes anyone would like to see made? The full EPS squad available is listed below:

Forwards

David Attwood (Bath Rugby)  
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)  
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)  
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)  
Joe Marler (Harlequins)  
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)    
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)  
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)  
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)  
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mulan (London Wasps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)  
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)  
Danny Care (Harlequins)  
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)  
Owen Farrell (Saracens)  
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)  
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)  
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)  
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)

England still look like they are building in a good way. I agree with Moody that i would have liked to see Ford on early. England still do not have a well blooded fly half as back up to Farrell. Except Flood, who has his walking papers.

But anyway even if England dont win this- and fair play to Ireland if they can.. I couldn't be happier. And again Manu- wow- allways looks a class above. Great cameo.

Best result in Rome since 2004 (50-9). But so many unforced errors. It's infuriating.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Always a danger when trying to force the game.

Not to worry, never  expected England could do it but they gave it a heck of a go.

It's Ireland's day now surely.  Bod day.

Nice to see you back, Trebell.   

mystiroakey wrote:

Notch wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Notch wrote:The way Italy played, that points target was very achievable for England. Incredibly achievable. A big relief.

nonsense. Italy really were giving it 100% out there. England tried and just fell short. Great effort

Giving it 100% but I think when you rewatch the game you'll see the many, many turnovers Italy gave away under almost no pressure.

they didn't give up- Englands defence is insaning fast out- the pressure England exerted on them leads to mistakes.

Italy made so many tackles they could have gone completely last 20 mins- they didn't and kept going, they held there heads up high and didn't let us get to our target. Lesser teams would have just melted and gifted us much more last quarter

I'm not saying they gave up, I'm just saying they really weren't very good- at all. I mean they were really bad. I want to make it clear that this is no slur on England. After all, Ireland benefited as much from Italian ineptitude as England did. It's just an observation on how Italy couldn't put two phases together and generally looked all over the place.

Duty281 wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:Always a danger when trying to force the game.

Not to worry, never  expected England could do it but they gave it a heck of a go.

It's Ireland's day now surely.  Bod day.

Nice to see you back, Trebell.   

Aye,

Sadly he wasnt around when we needed him during the ashes though!!

I'm so hacked off. All the unnecessary changes cost us 2 tries I reckon.
Why does SL do it??

nobbled wrote:I'm so hacked off. All the unnecessary changes cost us 2 tries I reckon.
Why does SL do it??

I would imaging he's looking at the bigger picture, we only have what 15 games before the World Cup.

We would all be the first ones to moan when we get an injury pre world cup and there isnt any backup.

The substitutions were fine. They needed doing. If anything I would have made them earlier

mystiroakey wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:Always a danger when trying to force the game.

Not to worry, never  expected England could do it but they gave it a heck of a go.

It's Ireland's day now surely.  Bod day.

Nice to see you back, Trebell.   

Aye,

Sadly he wasnt around when we needed him during the ashes though!!

Or the French game for this years Six Nations!

nathan wrote:

nobbled wrote:I'm so hacked off. All the unnecessary changes cost us 2 tries I reckon.
Why does SL do it??

I would imaging he's looking at the bigger picture, we only have what 15 games before the World Cup.

We would all be the first ones to moan when we get an injury pre world cup and there isnt any backup.

I reckon he thought fresh legs would mean more tries. Didn't quite work but England gave it a good go.

nathan wrote:

nobbled wrote:I'm so hacked off. All the unnecessary changes cost us 2 tries I reckon.
Why does SL do it??

I would imaging he's looking at the bigger picture, we only have what 15 games before the World Cup.

We would all be the first ones to moan when we get an injury pre world cup and there isnt any backup.

Make the changes you need - but making them for the sake of it? Win it before you play with the line-up.
Same thing cost us the France game.

Funny. Win by 41 points away to Italy who in the last few years have dragged us into a dog fight out of which we have only just found enough to cross the finish line and it feels slightly disappointing.

We have come a long way.

Peed that we didn't see the Burrell / Manu partnership tried, we know what 36 and Manu can do. Missed opportunity in my opinion.

Did you notice the Italians seemed to get a bit more go when Wood went off, just shows how effective he is. The balanced back row that is Robshaw, and Wood the workers and either BV or Morgan the carriers doesn't seem to work with other backrowers, a perfect blend. England need another player that can play in a harmonious way with them in case either of the worker bees gets crocked.

It would have ben interesting to see the score if England hadn't tried to force it, without the errors made I suspect their normal game would have produced a similar result.

nobbled wrote:

nathan wrote:

nobbled wrote:I'm so hacked off. All the unnecessary changes cost us 2 tries I reckon.
Why does SL do it??

I would imaging he's looking at the bigger picture, we only have what 15 games before the World Cup.

We would all be the first ones to moan when we get an injury pre world cup and there isnt any backup.

Make the changes you need - but making them for the sake of it? Win it before you play with the line-up.
Same thing cost us the France game.

lol, we were 50 points up! i think it was safe to say we won the game.

The subs didn't cost us the game against France - they just got a couple of lucky bounces, thats rugby.

Cheers duty. Nice to get on here for a change.

I can't believe I'm going to say this...

ALLEZ LES BLEUS!

I feel dirty.

That win was impressive and we just have to hope France can hold Ireland off for the draw (or, if needs be, the France win). We should be very happy with that performance

If Ireland win. Hats off to them.

And if they do there will be 2 very content sets of fans..

England are in great shape moving forward.. the win is for the history. But what we see on the pitch is glimpses of the future . England are on course to really start giving the best in the world serious doubts.

I can see us sneaking a win v NZ.

England have become a very good side, and have lots of scope to improve. I think we are going to dominate North Hemisphere rugby over the next few years.

Interesting stuff from Tuilagi. He carries the ball better than any other English back, but his all-round game is way behind Burrell's (in part perhaps because he's much younger). I'd still have him on the wing (instead of May), and leave more rounded players in the centres.

Glad to see Ford got some minutes and Nowell scored. Brown was amazing again, as was Farrell (he's come on so much in the last year).

I am torn for tonight. I've some French and Irish in me and I would be happy for either.

I kind of want to see BOD get the end he deserves.

That was a great result and I agree really shows the progress that has been made. I can't help thinking that the subs cost us a better margin but we'll never know that. I'll be shouting for the French later but as has been said if Ireland win then fair play to them and a fitting end for BOD too.

Yeah I'll be happy either way.

Ireland win - good ending for O'Driscoll.
France win or draw - England get what they deserve.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Peed that we didn't see the Burrell / Manu partnership tried, we know what 36 and Manu can do. Missed opportunity in my opinion.

Did you notice the Italians seemed to get a bit more go when Wood went off, just shows how effective he is. The balanced back row that is Robshaw, and Wood the workers and either BV or Morgan the carriers doesn't seem to work with other backrowers, a perfect blend. England need another player that can play in a harmonious way with them in case either of the  worker bees gets crocked.

It would have ben interesting to see the score if England hadn't tried to force it, without the errors made I suspect their normal game would have produced a similar result.

I agree. Would have been interesting to see Burrell back at 12 and Tuilagi at 13. Italy did appear to pick up the pace a bit with Woody out.

I also thought a comment someone else made was pretty insightful that the last few matches against Italy were real close. But this year a 40 point margin is disappointing. Good stuff.

By the way, has anyone looked back to see who threw the pass which was intercepted and returned for the Try?

Physically i'm not sure how it would be possible for players like Wilson who is from the Mike Ross school of fitness, but England will be absolutely kicking themselves. A lack of basic accuracy and composure may well cost them the championship. And they still hammered the Italians who were absolutely dreadful. Good things are happening in English rugby. The buggers. It's hard to dislike them as well. Take Dylan Hartley out and you might even be likeable. Thank goodness for him. Gives us someone to loath. I forgot about Farrell. He's a nasty piece of work.

Launchbury wasn't it?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Physically i'm not sure how it would be possible for players like Wilson who is from the Mike Ross school of fitness, but England will be absolutely kicking themselves.  A lack of basic accuracy and composure may well cost them the championship. And they still hammered the Italians who were absolutely dreadful. Good things are happening in English rugby. The buggers. It's hard to dislike them as well. Take Dylan Hartley out and you might even be likeable.  Thank goodness for him. Gives us someone to loath. I forgot about Farrell. He's a nasty piece of work.

Well we've got to give you something to hate

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:.........but England will be absolutely kicking themselves.  A lack of basic accuracy and composure may well cost them the championship...............

You talking about the last 5 minutes of the match  against France, the lack of scoring despite all that front foot ball against Wales, or the sloppiness against Italy?  To me, it means there is still a lot of potential yet to realise.  To be fair, so much of the time teams and individuals never reach their potential.  But this Six Nations leaves England fans feeling pretty good about the future, at least for now.  And that has nothing to do with the results in Paris.   Which is probably the best we have felt in quite a while.

Really good play from England, any other year and this would be an outstanding result but it's just a bit gutting we left so many try scoring opportunities out there on the field.

Not sure about Manu's cameo, other then the try which was impressive, he offered very little compared to Burrell. Can't help but feel it sent out the wrong message to take him off like that.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Launchbury wasn't it?

Couldn't tell. Maybe when the match is up on iPlayer we can see.

I was gutted about taking Burrell off. But also really pleased with manu's performance- it wasnt just the try either- he beat quite a few players on quite a few occasions and gained good yards.
1
But to take him of for burrell- who was in truth up there with brown in the first half will hurt him bad..

They should have taken of 36. who also is playing very well. But i think our best team will include Manu and Burreal

But not at 12 and 13.

I think there's been a sloppiness and lack of accuracy from England in every game, doc grey. The scoreline against Wales- flattered Wales. England for some reason gave away some totally unnecessary penalties. There were several tries they left out there too, and the same against Ireland, Scotland and Italy- there were some golden opportunities they let pass them by. Creating the chances but nowhere near clinical enough in finishing them.

By this point they probably should have won at least the championship and probably the Grand Slam if it wasn't for getting things which were within their power to get right wrong. But just imagine how good they'll be if those missed chances start coming good.

Can’t really complain too much after putting 50 on the Italians, in Italy – just look at our previous 3 games there. Anyway IMO Ireland will do enough now, and tbh deserve it – we didn’t lose the championship in the last game but over the series.

For the future though we have to be ruthless and jettison the deadwood: TY, TJ, May and Nowell just don’t have it. Sorry, I know the 2 wingers are willing, but May gets nowhere fast and Nowell makes too many mistakes – what top sides would they actually get in? 12T is struggling a bit – I’d rather see less of him in the ruck and more of him playmaking; anyway he still has work to do. And Stewie lost us momentum with his early subs, altho Ford looked decent when he eventually came on. SL also lost the opportunity of trying Burrell (who certainly has got it) and Manu. The Italians looked pooped by half-time, yet our fresh legs didn’t really put them to the sword.

The way Tuilagi played is exactly how those of us who think he's gifted, but too limited to be a regular in midfield would have expected him to.

I think a big part is the experience Burrell, Nowell and May were all very new. Twelvetrees only had a handful of caps. Forwards have looked very good, backs have looked a bit 'new', which they are. A hard tour to New Zealand, 4 AI should harden them a bit more. Hopefully next year they'll be more cohesive.

Barney McGrew did it wrote: 12T is struggling a bit – I’d rather see less of him in the ruck and more of him playmaking; anyway he still has work to do.

What game were you watching? Twelvetrees was excellent in defence and good in attack. The ball went through his hands on multiple occasions, bar one mis-pass that shouldn't have been, always effectively.

I guess we all see what we want to see.

In my view England are the best side in the NH, and will get a lot better. There is no deadwood in this matchday squad.

12T, bar a couple of hasty offloads that should have stayed in hand, was very good today

He bounced off one tackle at least as well. The sort of thing Ashton was slated for. Fortunately there was someone else to make the tackle.

doctor_grey wrote:By the way, has anyone looked back to see who threw the pass which was intercepted and returned for the Try?

Whoever said Launchbury was correct.

HammerofThunor wrote:He bounced off one tackle at least as well. The sort of thing Ashton was slated for. Fortunately there was someone else to make the tackle.

Ashton was slated for doing it repeatedly.

I usually am

And Twelvetrees has done it repeatedly in the 6 nations. New players in the defensive structure so it's understandable but I still have my doubts. But then I've been happy with the number of missed tackles we've had in the last few years. We've been saved by the covering defence too many times (and not just Ashton)

doctor_grey wrote:By the way, has anyone looked back to see who threw the pass which was intercepted and returned for the Try?

Launchbury

He missed one tackle out wide, but managed to slow the player enough he was caught a couple of metres further on. I think it was Andy Robinson who pointed out what a fine defender he'd become (Farrell has done a great job with the England defence btw) and SCW who said that the 36/Burrell partnership was the big plus of the Championship amongst the backs.

I thought the worst missed tackle of the game was Vunipola on an Italian prop, but I'm not going to be going on about it in 5 games time like some of Twelvetrees' critics do.

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Peed that we didn't see the Burrell / Manu partnership tried, we know what 36 and Manu can do. Missed opportunity in my opinion.

Did you notice the Italians seemed to get a bit more go when Wood went off, just shows how effective he is. The balanced back row that is Robshaw, and Wood the workers and either BV or Morgan the carriers doesn't seem to work with other backrowers, a perfect blend. England need another player that can play in a harmonious way with them in case either of the  worker bees gets crocked.

It would have ben interesting to see the score if England hadn't tried to force it, without the errors made I suspect their normal game would have produced a similar result.

I agree.  Would have been interesting to see Burrell back at 12 and Tuilagi at 13.  Italy did appear to pick up the pace a bit with Woody out.  

I also thought a comment someone else made was pretty insightful that the last few matches against Italy were real close.  But this year a 40 point margin is disappointing.  Good stuff.

36 bloody useless again, ridiculous having a proven (at club level) 12 on the field, who's having a storming game and tournament, and taking him off so that 36 (a guy with 1 good game and a host of errors in the tourney [and game!!] so far) can be left on the field to accommodate Manu.

Got to wonder whether 36 has incriminating photos of SL or something.

DaveM wrote:He missed one tackle out wide, but managed to slow the player enough he was caught a couple of metres further on. I think it was Andy Robinson who pointed out what a fine defender he'd become (Farrell has done a great job with the England defence btw) and SCW who said that the 36/Burrell partnership was the big plus of the Championship amongst the backs.

I thought the worst missed tackle of the game was Vunipola on an Italian prop, but I'm not going to be going on about it in 5 games time like some of Twelvetrees' critics do.

Very rose-tinted way of looking at it, he got completely mugged off (again!) by Mclean and was bailed out by a colleague. He 'slowed down' the 13 in the first half that otherwise ran clean through him, that was slowing someone down, and it still wasn't tackling.

As someone who has travelled to this fixture on a few occasions and seen some dire performances by England, I am not going to complain. 7 tries away from home takes some doing. Compare and contrast how England played today with last seasons fixture. A microcosm of the progress the team is making.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

36 bloody useless again, ridiculous having a proven (at club level) 12 on the field, who's having a storming game and tournament, and taking him off so that 36 (a guy with 1 good game and a host of errors in the tourney [and game!!] so far) can be left on the field to accommodate Manu.

Got to wonder whether 36 has incriminating photos of SL or something.

As the evidence overwhelms you, you are starting to sound a little shrill and desperate....