Italy v England - March 15th

First topic message reminder :

Thought i'd get one of these up and running and I haven't spotted another.

Firstly, congratulations to the boys for a superb performance against Wales, backing up a strong showing versus Ireland. Will the usual complacency be an issue this year? The lat two occasions we've faced Italy it's actually been both a poor performance and a lot closer.

Any changes anyone would like to see made? The full EPS squad available is listed below:

Forwards

David Attwood (Bath Rugby)  
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)  
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)  
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)  
Joe Marler (Harlequins)  
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)    
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)  
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)  
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)  
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mulan (London Wasps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)  
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)  
Danny Care (Harlequins)  
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)  
Owen Farrell (Saracens)  
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)  
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)  
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)  
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Very rose-tinted way of looking at it, he got completely mugged off (again!) by Mclean and was bailed out by a colleague.  He 'slowed down' the 13 in the first half that otherwise ran clean through him, that was slowing someone down, and it still wasn't tackling.

Is that the one where the commentator said "Excellent tackle by Twelvetrees'?

LT, true. It's the best score since 2004 (same margin less points). A better margin was 2000. Considering the quality of England and Italy back then it's decent. But I can't be happy with the number of mistakes and fluffed opportunities be it a 1 point a win or 100 points.

But I do think it's mostly down to a new back line (again) and they should do better with more experience.

DaveM wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Very rose-tinted way of looking at it, he got completely mugged off (again!) by Mclean and was bailed out by a colleague.  He 'slowed down' the 13 in the first half that otherwise ran clean through him, that was slowing someone down, and it still wasn't tackling.

Is that the one where the commentator said "Excellent tackle by Twelvetrees'?

Yeah, Andy Robinson. They guy who picked Noon and Tindall as a centre partnership.

DaveM wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

36 bloody useless again, ridiculous having a proven (at club level) 12 on the field, who's having a storming game and tournament, and taking him off so that 36 (a guy with 1 good game and a host of errors in the tourney [and game!!] so far) can be left on the field to accommodate Manu.

Got to wonder whether 36 has incriminating photos of SL or something.

As the evidence overwhelms you, you are starting to sound a little shrill and desperate....

Rubbish.

Don't remember seeing anything of his much vaunted kicking game today.

In a walk-over game I can only remember him showing one burst of creativity (that set up Vunipola), he missed dangerous tackles, chucked in some appalling passes. Only thing that was missing from a normal 36 performance was a ball fumble.

Fact is taking Burrell off told us absolutely nothing. Trying him at 12 with Manu at 13 WOULD have.

HammerofThunor wrote:

DaveM wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Very rose-tinted way of looking at it, he got completely mugged off (again!) by Mclean and was bailed out by a colleague.  He 'slowed down' the 13 in the first half that otherwise ran clean through him, that was slowing someone down, and it still wasn't tackling.

Is that the one where the commentator said "Excellent tackle by Twelvetrees'?

Yeah, Andy Robinson. They guy who picked Noon and Tindall as a centre partnership.

Exactly.

And yes, it was that one.

If that's a 'tackle' then apparently the laws of the game have changed as his arms had nothing to do with it. He got completely squashed and the Italian just fell over his prostrate body.

Yes I will admit that 12T's defence has improved - so that he's now more or less another Barritt. I thought the whole point was that he added some incisiveness in attack, and in the game I was watching (I'm pretty sure it was the Italy England game because that's what the commentators said) he seemed to be buried in too many rucks to add enough. He is improving but still has some way to go IMO. And we were denied a Burrell Manu combination by Stewie.

Question.

Mike Browns first try - he had the chance to give May a simple run in by drawing the defender and passing. Instead full of confidence he pegged his ears back and scored. However it needed a shoddy effort at a tackle for him to get there.

If you were the coach, would you congratulate him on scoring, or highlight what he could have done instead? Or both.

PS Mike Brown for MotT

LondonTiger wrote:Question.

Mike Browns first try - he had the chance to give May a simple run in by drawing the defender and passing. Instead full of confidence he pegged his ears back and scored. However it needed a shoddy effort at a tackle for him to get there.

If you were the coach, would you congratulate him on scoring, or highlight what he could have done instead? Or both.

PS Mike Brown for MotT

If he scores the try he made the right decision, he if cocks it up he made the wrong one. simple as that.

Is it that simple Nathan. If someone makes the wrong decision but gets lucky (not saying that is correct here) do you not want the coaches to highlight the correct decision? They may not get so lucky next time.

Congratulate him.
He's in the form of his life and full of confidence. He obviously felt he had the power to bust the attempted tackle. (I see what you are saying though... if he had run into a brick wall... then maybe he could have shovelled it to May just before he took the impact)

LondonTiger wrote:Is it that simple Nathan. If someone makes the wrong decision but gets lucky (not saying that is correct here) do you not want the coaches to highlight the correct decision? They may not get so lucky next time.

I would imagine the player looking back at the videos would notice his mitake.

to be fair if the Italian makes the tackle Brown still has time to offload to May doesn't he? I would back him to do that.

Thought Farrell (bar his moment of stupidity - someone should have a word) had an excellent game today. Kicking faultless, nice line for the try, nice offload for Brown's second, varied the attack well (played a part in several other tries). Really growing into his role.

In general I'm very happy with that England performance, when you're forcing the pace you will make a few mistakes, so not too fussed about those. They gave it a go, and did well (is that the highest winnings margin vs Italy this tournament?). The Italian try is a good read by McLeod, but if Launchbury's pass reaches Tuilagi England have a great chance at a score themselves.

Re: the wingers. I think the issue with May right now is that he is a fantastic runner in space and hes smart enough to see if things are on or not. What he isnt at the moment is any good at taking contact. I dont know if things can change there but if he doesnt get space he isnt going to look great. It was depressing when we had the overlap and 36 sent that long pass out to the left wing that it was Hartley who was there and not May. Of the competition, Wade can find space where noone else can see any, and Yarde is strong enough to bounce people off as well as go round them.

Defensively hes not bad at all though. He doesnt get involved that often but he doesnt miss tackles.

Nowell is so clearly a work in progress. He is so young. It is worth remembering the progress made by guys like Marler in just a year. It may be that 2015 is too early but I cant help thinking that yes he will drop out when Yarde and Wade are back, but he will also be back one day.

Nice win by the way, chaps.      

This Aussie also thinks they are a much better team to watch when playing as they have recently. Plenty of reasons to look upwards.
Also, don't worry too much about this player or that in the backs. The main thing is to give them all good exposure to the highest levels of competition, which, baring injuries, SL is doing. Be good to each other.  

How any of you can still slate Twelvetrees is beyond me. SL hadn't tried 36/Manu until today either, you do realise? They linked well together.

EnglishReign wrote:How any of you can still slate Twelvetrees is beyond me. SL hadn't tried 36/Manu until today either, you do realise? They linked well together.

They were club colleagues until this year, so they might just have a little bit of experience of playing with each other....

But yes I did think that 36 is really starting to look the part

LondonTiger wrote:Is it that simple Nathan. If someone makes the wrong decision but gets lucky (not saying that is correct here) do you not want the coaches to highlight the correct decision? They may not get so lucky next time.

I see exactly what you're saying and against Wales two seasons back didn't he do just that? But then the way May's playing at the mo he'd have probably stepped sideways across the pitch and into the last defender.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Rubbish.

Don't remember seeing anything of his much vaunted kicking game today.

In a walk-over game I can only remember him showing one burst of creativity (that set up Vunipola), he missed dangerous tackles, chucked in some appalling passes.  Only thing that was missing from a normal 36 performance was a ball fumble.

Fact is taking Burrell off told us absolutely nothing.  Trying him at 12 with Manu at 13 WOULD have.

He didn't kick the ball because England were trying to play with ball in hand.

He did not miss any dangerous tackles, his defence was excellent, as was his ball handling. Every England player made and will make mistakes. Worst pass of the game was Burrell to Nowell, which should have led directly to a try for Italy. But that doesn't mean Burrell wasn't excellent.

SL doesn't want to learn what Burrell/Tuilagi looks like as far as I can see, because that's not how he wants England to play (incidentally this is the most entertaining England side for at least a decade).

I tell you what though, you believe 36 had a shocker today, I'll believe he'll be England's first choice IC for at least the next couple of years, and we'll both be happy.

I've been gutted with May, genuinely doesn't play like that for Glaws. If there's a glimpse of space on the outside he usually exploits it, rather than stepping inside EVERY time!

HammerofThunor wrote:

DaveM wrote:

Is that the one where the commentator said "Excellent tackle by Twelvetrees'?

Yeah, Andy Robinson. They guy who picked Noon and Tindall as a centre partnership.

Pretty sure it was the commentator rather than Robinson who made that comment actually. It's fallacious anyway: what does Robinson's selection error have to do with his ability to recognise good defence?

Believe it or not, May CAN  burn them on the outside. Wish he would have a go.

It was definitely Robinson. He said good tackle Twelvetrees as the tackle started and you saw Twelvetrees bounce off and let go in slow mention. Robinson is a bad selector, poor commentator and he was wrong in this case.

I think it was the commentator. If you can be bothered to find the clip then go for it.

In any case, it was a good tackle that stopped the move.

Twelvetrees is a top class defender.

Is it significant who it is? Does the fact it was a bad tackle depend on which one made the mistake saying it was a good tackle?

How is a missed tackle ever a good tackle. I think we might as leave it there if you think Twelvetrees is a top class defender given his missed tackles in this competition.

Because Twelvetrees brought him down. The fact he released him before he hit the ground doesn't mean it wasn't an effective tackle.

If you want a bad missed tackle I offer you Burrell's, on his opposite number I think, which led to an Italian break. He still had a good game though and generally defended well.

I don't see any pundits suggesting there is an issue with Twelvetree's defence. He's an excellent defender, and I do think Andy Robinson (who did explicitly complement 36's general defence) knows more about good defence in the centres than you do.

I've not seen an England side that defends as well as this one does in many years. Part of that is the aggression they show, and the inevitable result is the odd missed tackle. If you stop the opposition momentum it doesn't usually matter.

DaveM wrote:Because Twelvetrees brought him down. The fact he released him before he hit the ground doesn't mean it wasn't an effective tackle.

If you want a bad missed tackle I offer you Burrell's, on his opposite number I think, which led to an Italian break. He still had a good game though and generally defended well.

I don't see any pundits suggesting there is an issue with Twelvetree's defence. He's an excellent defender, and I do think Andy Robinson (who did explicitly complement 36's general defence) knows more about good defence in the centres than you do.

I've not seen an England side that defends as well as this one does in many years. Part of that is the aggression they show, and the inevitable result is the odd missed tackle. If you stop the opposition momentum it doesn't usually matter.

Don't bother mate, people only remember Twelvetrees' mistakes for some reason.

There will always be missed tackles. That's why the team practice their scramble defence and Englands is very impressive.

I agree on you that the defence is much better at the moment than it's been under SL before. But I really don't care if someone else says he's a good defender. If they say why they think they're a good defender then they may convince me. It don't care who it is.

And Twelvetrees didn't let go because the tackle had been made. He bounced off. I don't think he's a bad defender and think the issues have most been due to the number of new players. But there's no way what I've seen says Twelvetrees is a top class defender. Doesn't mean he's not one of course, just there is little evidence at the moment.

yappysnap wrote:There will always be missed tackles. That's why the team practice their scramble defence and Englands is very impressive.

The combo Nowell/Farrell tackle is a classic example of that. Stupid pass to Nowell caused all sorts of problems but the way those two combined to kill the threat was outstanding

Exactly Yappy and EnglishReign. People are fixating on, and emphasising, Twelvetrees' errors, whilst ignoring worse errors made by other players.

Rugby players make mistakes. The number and seriousness of the errors made by 36 is nothing special, and he's doing loads of good things.

Why the :cuss does it always have to be one extreme or another? We're talking about one tackle. I've already said I've think the 12 shirt is Twelvetrees but he's not stood out enough that he's absolutely nailed on. I've said that I think he should be given chance to gel with the rest, just as Farrell has and pointed out Farrell HAS grown and gelled. But no, I only see the negative. You can't been critical without being accused on slating a player. It's really annoying.

And just to repeat, in this case I think Twelvetrees bounced off a tackle and missed it. DaveM thinks it was a great tackle. I think Twelvetrees has missed too many tackles (and pointed out it's probably larger due to new caps) to be called top class defender. DaveM thinks he's a top class defender. That's it. We disagree on some other things that are completely independent to Twelvetrees but that's not relevant to this.

HammerofThunor wrote:
And Twelvetrees didn't let go because the tackle had been made. He bounced off. I don't think he's a bad defender and think the issues have most been due to the number of new players. But there's no way what I've seen says Twelvetrees is a top class defender. Doesn't mean he's not one of course, just there is little evidence at the moment.

I didn't say he let go because the tackle was complete. He let go because he'd be run over, but he still brought him down, which is what matters. Burrell has no such excuses. Why aren't you pointing out his mistake?

No way you can defend as well as England are at present without your 12 defending very well.

Do the stats suggest Twelvetrees is missing an unusual number of tackles? Genuinely interested to know.

The missed tackle, he did take all the momentum out of the Italian and he didnt get anything out of it. If only all 'missed' tackles were so painless

Because I didn't see anyone say Burrell was excellent in defence. You said that Twelvetrees was excellent in defence so I pointed the missed tackle (IMO). That's it.

Burrell was excellent in defence. He still missed a bad tackle though.

lostinwales wrote:The missed tackle, he did take all the momentum out of the Italian and he didnt get anything out of it. If only all 'missed' tackles were so painless

Absolutely.

Dave, I think we have different definitions of excellent although I don't remember the specific tackle. I don't expect any straight up tackles to be missed. If you have ground to cover then it may be acceptable.

Many of Ashton's tackles took the Momentum out of the attacker but they got it back again because there wasn't another tackler there.

Ok so ignoring the centres for a minute. Ford's cameo was good and his step, burst of speed and dummy were refreshing for a 10.

On the down side would people say Mako let himself down at the scrum this game and Marler Is comfy as the starter?

HammerofThunor wrote:Dave, I think we have different definitions of excellent :)although I don't remember the specific tackle. I don't expect any straight up tackles to be missed. If you have ground to cover then it may be acceptable.

Many of Ashton's tackles took the Momentum out of the attacker but they got it back again because there wasn't another tackler there.

Second half, down his channel, went low and missed him. Led to Italy getting at our back 3 for almost the only time in the game.

Twelvetrees stopped the momentum allowing others to complete the tackle and the other players did the rest.

But England are defending excellently as a team. We rarely concede clear chances. In my view missed tackles only matter if they lead to a chance.

yappysnap wrote:Ok so ignoring the centres for a minute. Ford's cameo was good and his step, burst of speed and dummy were refreshing for a 10.

On the down side would people say Mako let himself down at the scrum this game and Marler Is comfy as the starter?

Yes. Mako did make some nice carries but he looks like he is nowhere near the fitness levels of his little brother. Still, Italy are a decent scrummaging side (or were until they brought they subs on)

But you don't know if they lead to a chance when they're missed. If you miss tackles because we keep our wingers back to cover kicks and breaks and therefore you have more ground to cover then that's acceptable. If they run at you it should be made, no doubt in my mind.

But it was made. The momentum ended there. There was no chance. Sometimes players get run over, but do they get run over cleanly or bring the player down with them is what matters.

I think I'll wait until I seen it again as it's almost as if we're talking about different tackles

Fair enough.

lostinwales wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Ok so ignoring the centres for a minute. Ford's cameo was good and his step, burst of speed and dummy were refreshing for a 10.

On the down side would people say Mako let himself down at the scrum this game and Marler Is comfy as the starter?

Yes. Mako did make some nice carries but he looks like he is nowhere near the fitness levels of his little brother. Still, Italy are a decent scrummaging side (or were until they brought they subs on)

I thought they'd been poor at the scrum all tournament?

Mako was very good in the loose but I worry that with him and Youngs on the bench we end up with two extra sudo-flankers but lose a lot at the set piece.

Talking about fitness Morgan lasted well again, is Tom Woods repeat subbing due to his foot injury and the risk of it getting damaged again? Or a pre planned move by Stu? Or because of the sheer amount of work he's getting through?

well, if we had scored a couple more tries we'd have won - that puts the emphasis on the handling errors.

You mean as opposed to retaining possession through a functioning set piece? I would say both were pretty useful... You'll struggle to have that ball to handle if you keep losing it at the lineout and scrum.

After the first line out (Sigh....) Tom Youngs threw in pretty well

lostinwales wrote:After the first line out (Sigh....) Tom Youngs threw in pretty well

Strange one that first one. Did we even get a jumper in the air? Didn't see a replay.