Italy v England - March 15th

First topic message reminder :

Thought i'd get one of these up and running and I haven't spotted another.

Firstly, congratulations to the boys for a superb performance against Wales, backing up a strong showing versus Ireland. Will the usual complacency be an issue this year? The lat two occasions we've faced Italy it's actually been both a poor performance and a lot closer.

Any changes anyone would like to see made? The full EPS squad available is listed below:

Forwards

David Attwood (Bath Rugby)  
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)  
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)  
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)  
Joe Marler (Harlequins)  
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)    
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)  
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)  
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)  
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mulan (London Wasps)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)  
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)  
Danny Care (Harlequins)  
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)  
Owen Farrell (Saracens)  
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)  
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)  
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)  
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)

I was made very happy by how much the team lauded Nowell when he scored. They are in a good place in terms of fighting for each other and that will set them in good stead. Even though we didnt win I am happy with how this 6N has gone

DaveM wrote:Do the stats suggest Twelvetrees is missing an unusual number of tackles? Genuinely interested to know.

No. This game he missed 1 of 7, Burrel 1 of 3.
"MoM" ODriscoll missed 4 from 12 and Darcy 3 from 16.


Previous week he made 7 missed none, burrel missed 1 from 9


Twelvetrees has been exemplary in that regard over the last couple of weeks at least, I CBA to look up the older games but I dont remember it being a problem.

I thought Burrell was very scrappy today, still a danger with his breaks but struggled when England were trying to force the game, as did Nowell (again).

No one else incredibly angry at Tom Youngs? He has been given enough second chances now. He will cost us a game in the world cup. He stopped our momentum in the Italy game which probably cost us the championship, and if I remember right he threw a couple of stinkers in the France game?

Either way he has consistently proved he cannot handle test rugby. Whos our thirs choice at the moment?

We cant blame one player for that loss Mid.

The team lost focus and organisation last ten.. It wasnt just the team but also SL's subs. Thankfully we learnt very quickly from that mistake and didnt allow other teams back in when they had a sniff.

He's had enough chances though....he cannot throw in the pressure of a test match. How many times has he come on and immediately lost us a line out now? He has become a liability and the pressure is greater every time he does it, we can't risk throwing away field position and momentum because our hooker cant reliably do what his position requires. We need someone else to step up in the next 12 months or he will cost us a chance at a WC....no room for flakiness in our group.

I agree he's not of the standard we need, he's struggled for a while now.

Who to replace him though?

ok so lets look at what happened when hartley started taking the line out and it worked well... He gave away 4 of the 5 kick able pens v Wales mate.

but still did great elsewhere.. As has Tom Youngs..

its about working on individuals and ironing out the flaws..

As an outsider, Tom Youngs throwing really needs to be worked on but the other aspects of his game are really good. His movement around the field is very impressive and he is quite quick.
Definitely one to stick with.

Youngs missed one lineout yesterday. His first one, but it was really bizzare. England didn't even put a jumper in the air. Of course it was overthrown. No one made an attempt to catch it. There was a serious cck up there and I'm not sure it was the hookers fault.

maverickmak wrote:Youngs missed one lineout yesterday. His first one, but it was really bizzare. England didn't even put a jumper in the air. Of course it was overthrown. No one made an attempt to catch it. There was a serious cck up there and I'm not sure it was the hookers fault.

Pretty sure Young's should shoulder much of the blame for that one, but the only ones you can guarantee the hooker is to blame is the not straight. The lineout is about throwing to the right place at the right time. Lineouts are well rehearsed and have trigger movements (amid all that shuffling and moving about) that tell the hooker when to throw. Sometime this goes wrong. Sometimes the call is misunderstood, by the thrower or the person meant to make the trigger movements. Sometimes the wrong call is made and sometimes the hooker just plain gets it wrong.

Not sure how many people noticed yesterday that Launchbury was replaced as a lineout was meant to take place. Lawes forget to recall the lineout - so Youngs stepped in and reminded him. There we had good teamwork that helped.

The lineout when Youngs is on is not reliable enough. Much of the time his first throw is too hard, though equally at times calls have been relayed incorrectly. I believe that Youngs must improve his throwing (I understand why he has issues, but we seem to have very few reliable throwers in NH rugby atm) and worry he is too small in stature (though he actually hooks for the ball as well as anyone I have seen). I also believe people exaggerate his failings. Hell England fans seem to think he is as bad as Ross Ford or Richard Hibbard at throwing

I don't think the International arena is a good place to work on your game. Youngs need to go back to Tigers and nail his throws.

Youngs does nail his throws at the Tigers though, doesn't he?

Youngs has amoung the best lineout stats in Europe for Tigers.

Cyril wrote:Youngs does nail his throws at the Tigers though, doesn't he?

Well he had a really bad day against Gloucester I think. (Though DavyDuck was worse). It is not the strongest part of his game (despite being the only vaguely reliable thrower during the Lions tour) and it needs work. Lineouts are about combinations though - and hard to develop that understanding unless you are in the training squad.

Is it a co-incidence that Hartley does better with Lawes and Wood, than he does with Parling and Croft? (And vice versa for Youngs).


If Youngs throwing is as bad as Pooly believes, then Youngs should be discarded immediately. Mind you not even Rob Vickers is as bad at throwing as Pooly believes Youngs to be

Dug out the stats Opta put on twitter.

@OptaJonny: 91% - Tom Youngs has thrown the most successful lineouts in the league & Europe this season, at a better success rate than the top 10. (Jan 9)

@OptaJonny: 92% - Youngs has a lineout success rate of 92% (103/112) in @premrugby this season, compared to 89% for Hartley (93/105). (Feb 12)

We should stick with youngs in the england set up- His form is clearly good enough at club level(well he has been the best at club level based on the above)

so its a head thing and a system thing with the throws and catches that need ironing out within the England team. All it should take is a lot of training graft and then a few decent performances and it should click into place. If he continues to stay at his international level throwing then we have to get rid- but we have to give him a chance- he was fine in the last game

IIRC Hartley had a reputation for poor throwing(seem to recall Gatland having a go pre game against the Welsh a few years ago, Hartleys response was to have a near perfect throwing game). Not having a go at Hartley just that most Hookers seem to have an off time throwing at some point in their careers

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC Hartley had a reputation for poor throwing(seem to recall Gatland having a go pre game against the Welsh a few years ago, Hartleys response was to have a near perfect throwing game). Not having a go at Hartley just that most Hookers seem to have an off time throwing at some point in their careers

Youngs hasn't had an on time for England.

His problems seems to be:

1. He can't step up to the increase in standard/pressure

2. He can't seem to throw to non club colleagues