Jared Payne turns Irish

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/26634497

A MIGHTY TANIWHA becomes Irish.   

Sin é wrote:
Keith Earls signed a new 2 year central contract in January which will keep him with Ireland & Munster until June 2016.
http://www.setanta.com/ie/earls-signs-new-two-year-contract/

Nice one. How many central contracts are there now? Over 20?

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Keith Earls signed a new 2 year central contract in January which will keep him with Ireland & Munster until June 2016.
http://www.setanta.com/ie/earls-signs-new-two-year-contract/

Nice one. How many central contracts are there now? Over 20?

Here they are (as far as I know)
Healy, Best, Ross
POC, Ryan (DOC lost his recently)
POM, SOB & Heislip
Murray, No. 10
Earls, Trimble, Bowe & Rob Kearney (BOD's one is up at end of season).

Most of them are fairly recent. Bowe's one is up in 2015.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I don't see how any bad message is being sent out. The guy has quality throughout and is a huge asset to Ulster Rugby. He has qualities that will absolutely transfer to international rugby and I would stake my mortgage on it. The fact that he would be playing top flight european rugby and eventually international rugby was why he signe on the dotted line. It's poaching talent yes but we'd be mad to refuse on 'moral' grounds.

No one should be given a central contract before they are capped for Ireland. It is a slap in the face to players who have been toiling for years to get one. Also it smacks of favoritism to reward someone before they have done anything. What if he get a long term injury between now and November? Doesnt make business sense.

In most cases I would agree Guns but Payne's case is a little different. He's a classier player at 13 or 15 than anyone else we have IMO.
Yes I know opinions are like A-holes etc but in Payne we have an amazing utility player on the books. He is not another Bent.

Well Payne will be either main man 13 or he'll be cover for Kearney.  But I doubt he'll be taking Kearney's role or sitting on a bench as 13 cover.


I think Kearney though must become more................... more relaxed and more adventurous when trying to move out of his own half.  I think he doesn't have many ideas about escape when faced with a solid defensive line and he is man in possession.  That part of his game must improve - if he can improve it - not so certain he has the skills to do so.

The closer he gets to the opposition tryline, however, the more lethal he becomes as he readily joins prepared moves and always looks dangerous and predatory.  But I'd really like to see him become more unpredictable when forced into possession in his own half.

So therefore, despite me saying nobody will take his place, I'd like him also to stay behind on the tour to Argentina.  Let's see what someone else might bring to the role.  Too early for Payne.  But let's see what we've got that might charge up the 15 role, like Brown has done for England.

GunsGerms wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It's more a case of the whole project player thing being a union sanctioned/controlled system to bring players into Ireland with the aim of them getting Irish qualified.  If he had a central contract it just ties the union directly up with it even more.

It's not too bad at the moment because the project players don't tend to be THAT good (a lot of international games these days mean that most decent players are capped by their home country if show much early promise) and are from countries with a surplus of players.

At least in England the players move to England because it's a great place to live, not that they're on a union sponsored programme to come into the England team

There is no difference in English project players and irish ones except that there are more English ones.

Do they have any? I don't think they have any centrally contracted players, clubs hire on their own regard.

In terms of their current foreign born legion

M. Vunipola - childhood.
B. Vunipola - childhood.
M. Tuilagi - childhood.
Hartley - childhood & ancestral.
Corbisiero - childhood.

Any others? Hardly project though (Mike Brown does look like he's from another planet at the moment but that's another story!!)

Yes on chaps like M. Botha but given he was dropped by Boland, disgarded for scrap by SA and rebuilt his career in the English lower leagues you could hardly say he was project.
Perhaps in the past with chaps like Henry Paul and a few league converts few now.... most of those type are now playing in France.

Now if someone shops a chap like Timo Swiel then perhaps (although again I think he has English parents and refused SA JRWC last years as he was unsure who he wanted to represent).

Tommie Allan wanted to play for the boks but apparently they refused him on his background. I.e. only resident.

fa0019 wrote:
Do they have any? I don't think they have any centrally contracted players, clubs hire on their own regard.

In terms of their current foreign born legion

M. Vunipola - childhood.
B. Vunipola - childhood.
M. Tuilagi - childhood.
Hartley - childhood & ancestral.
Corbisiero - childhood.

Any others? Hardly project though (Mike Brown does look like he's from another planet at the moment but that's another story!!)

Yes on chaps like M. Botha but given he was dropped by Boland, disgarded for scrap by SA and rebuilt his career in the English lower leagues you could hardly say he was project.
Perhaps in the past with chaps like Henry Paul and a few league converts few now.... most of those type are now playing in France.

Now if someone shops a chap like Timo Swiel then perhaps (although again I think he has English parents and refused SA JRWC last years as he was unsure who he wanted to represent).

Tommie Allan wanted to play for the boks but apparently they refused him on his background. I.e. only resident.

It doesnt matter who hires them or how they come into the country if they play for England because of the 3 year residency rule they are effectively the same as a so called project player.

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I don't see how any bad message is being sent out. The guy has quality throughout and is a huge asset to Ulster Rugby. He has qualities that will absolutely transfer to international rugby and I would stake my mortgage on it. The fact that he would be playing top flight european rugby and eventually international rugby was why he signe on the dotted line. It's poaching talent yes but we'd be mad to refuse on 'moral' grounds.

No one should be given a central contract before they are capped for Ireland. It is a slap in the face to players who have been toiling for years to get one. Also it smacks of favoritism to reward someone before they have done anything. What if he get a long term injury between now and November? Doesnt make business sense.

In most cases I would agree Guns but Payne's case is a little different. He's a classier player at 13 or 15 than anyone else we have IMO.
Yes I know opinions are like A-holes etc but in Payne we have an amazing utility player on the books. He is not another Bent.

Favoritism in other words?

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:
Do they have any? I don't think they have any centrally contracted players, clubs hire on their own regard.

In terms of their current foreign born legion

M. Vunipola - childhood.
B. Vunipola - childhood.
M. Tuilagi - childhood.
Hartley - childhood & ancestral.
Corbisiero - childhood.

Any others? Hardly project though (Mike Brown does look like he's from another planet at the moment but that's another story!!)

Yes on chaps like M. Botha but given he was dropped by Boland, disgarded for scrap by SA and rebuilt his career in the English lower leagues you could hardly say he was project.

Perhaps in the past with chaps like Henry Paul and a few league converts few now.... most of those type are now playing in France.

Now if someone shops a chap like Timo Swiel then perhaps (although again I think he has English parents and refused SA JRWC last years as he was unsure who he wanted to represent).

Tommie Allan wanted to play for the boks but apparently they refused him on his background. I.e. only resident.

It doesnt matter who hires them or how they come into the country if they play for England because of the 3 year residency rule they are effectively the same as a so called project player.

I'd disagree on the terminology. Someone like Josh Strauss.... an obvious project player. Someone like Mouritz Botha.... I don't even think Worcester had him on their radar when he walked through Heathrow let alone the RFU.

If they were tapped up beforehand yes I agree, if after say 5 years someone said, by jove!!! You dear chap can play for "xyz" then its simply just one of those things... like the old days where you represented the country you lived in... not the country you're from (well most of the time at least).

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I don't see how any bad message is being sent out. The guy has quality throughout and is a huge asset to Ulster Rugby. He has qualities that will absolutely transfer to international rugby and I would stake my mortgage on it. The fact that he would be playing top flight european rugby and eventually international rugby was why he signe on the dotted line. It's poaching talent yes but we'd be mad to refuse on 'moral' grounds.

No one should be given a central contract before they are capped for Ireland. It is a slap in the face to players who have been toiling for years to get one. Also it smacks of favoritism to reward someone before they have done anything. What if he get a long term injury between now and November? Doesnt make business sense.

In most cases I would agree Guns but Payne's case is a little different. He's a classier player at 13 or 15 than anyone else we have IMO.
Yes I know opinions are like A-holes etc but in Payne we have an amazing utility player on the books. He is not another Bent.

Favoritism in other words?

You say favoutirism I say smart recruitment. We could pick out many instances of blatant favouritism in the Irish squads of the past throughout history but at least in this case it's well targeted favouritism

Payne had a good negotiating position at the time. He was wanted back in NZ (who are very short of players who can play in the centre). The Chiefs wanted Casey Laulala on loan at the end of last season because of all their injuries (he was refused permission by the NZ because the request was too late).

Whatever about Ireland wanting him in the future, Ulster would have missed him something cronically (as you can see from what Ulster fans say about him). They would also be losing Afoa & Muller at the end of this season, so they probably need to retain as much quality as possible.

Sin é wrote:Payne had a good negotiating position at the time. He was wanted back in NZ (who are very short of players who can play in the centre). The Chiefs wanted Casey Laulala on loan at the end of last season because of all their injuries (he was refused permission by the NZ because the request was too late).

Whatever about Ireland wanting him in the future, Ulster would have missed him something cronically (as you can see from what Ulster fans say about him). They would also be losing Afoa & Muller at the end of this season, so they probably need to retain as much quality as possible.

Its the Nick Evans effect.. the very very best stay in NZ, get a decent salary and the honour of being an AB... the not quite good enough go to Europe and seek their fortune.

Not bad really, ok you won't get an AB cap but you'll probably earn 4 times as much as you would in NZ/SA/AUS/SAM/FIJI/TONGA etc..

Notch wrote:They do pay the players, aye. The difference is who stumps up the cash at the end of the day. But there is so much overlap between the IRFU and its branches its not a big distinction. For instance if one province had troubles with its wage bill the IRFU might increase their funding.

In a rugby sense there is no distinction; all players are contracted to the IRFU.

The IRFU have more direct input on the central group in terms of how often they play and their training programs/load.

Sean O'Brien for example initially turned down a central contract, in favour of a provincial one because he felt the IRFU would reduce his game time with Leinster if he signed with the IRFU.

Another thing is the non-central players get paid an additional appearance fee when on International duty whereas the IRFU contacted ones don't as they are contractually obliged to perform national duties.

SecretFly wrote:Oh God................ we're gonna marmalise the ABs in the WC final!!!!!!!!!!

An exciting time to be Irish...................... and em............... Kiwi.

Thinking of which...maybe the ABs should simply annex us or we should annex New Zealand.  You know it makes sense folks - let's have a meeting in Moscow about the technicalities.

I know Russia have been doing it again but are we allowed to annex countries now? If so, would you boys like any hints?

You mean us Annexing England?

Nah, Chequered - too big and unwieldy and having to take the blame for The X Factor would destroy our Irish souls.

No, I think we might try annexing America next month - sometime on April 13th around about teatime - but after the tea,

You have already heavily "contributed" to the X factor through Louis "worse than Cowell" Walsh, the Irish one in One Direction Phillips wanted to fight and JedWood...

Sin é wrote:Whatever about Ireland wanting him in the future, Ulster would have missed him something cronically (as you can see from what Ulster fans say about him). They would also be losing Afoa & Muller at the end of this season, so they probably need to retain as much quality as possible.

No doubt, he's probably been the best performing outside back in the Pro12 of late. He's that good. He's like our Isa Nacewa.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Whatever about Ireland wanting him in the future, Ulster would have missed him something cronically (as you can see from what Ulster fans say about him). They would also be losing Afoa & Muller at the end of this season, so they probably need to retain as much quality as possible.

No doubt, he's probably been the best performing outside back in the Pro12 of late. He's that good. He's like our Isa Nacewa.

Bit harsh on Johne Murphy.

ChequeredJersey wrote:You have already heavily "contributed" to the X factor through Louis "worse than Cowell" Walsh, the Irish one in One Direction Phillips wanted to fight and JedWood...

Why do you think we shipped them all over there? There's more of their type here if you want them????

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I don't see how any bad message is being sent out. The guy has quality throughout and is a huge asset to Ulster Rugby. He has qualities that will absolutely transfer to international rugby and I would stake my mortgage on it. The fact that he would be playing top flight european rugby and eventually international rugby was why he signe on the dotted line. It's poaching talent yes but we'd be mad to refuse on 'moral' grounds.

No one should be given a central contract before they are capped for Ireland. It is a slap in the face to players who have been toiling for years to get one. Also it smacks of favoritism to reward someone before they have done anything. What if he get a long term injury between now and November? Doesnt make business sense.

In most cases I would agree Guns but Payne's case is a little different. He's a classier player at 13 or 15 than anyone else we have IMO.
Yes I know opinions are like A-holes etc but in Payne we have an amazing utility player on the books. He is not another Bent.

Favoritism in other words?

Nope Ireland give central contracts to plays they consider will contribute the most going forward - Payne is no different in that regard

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:
Do they have any? I don't think they have any centrally contracted players, clubs hire on their own regard.

In terms of their current foreign born legion

M. Vunipola - childhood.
B. Vunipola - childhood.
M. Tuilagi - childhood.
Hartley - childhood & ancestral.
Corbisiero - childhood.

Any others? Hardly project though (Mike Brown does look like he's from another planet at the moment but that's another story!!)

Yes on chaps like M. Botha but given he was dropped by Boland, disgarded for scrap by SA and rebuilt his career in the English lower leagues you could hardly say he was project.

Perhaps in the past with chaps like Henry Paul and a few league converts few now.... most of those type are now playing in France.

Now if someone shops a chap like Timo Swiel then perhaps (although again I think he has English parents and refused SA JRWC last years as he was unsure who he wanted to represent).

Tommie Allan wanted to play for the boks but apparently they refused him on his background. I.e. only resident.

It doesnt matter who hires them or how they come into the country if they play for England because of the 3 year residency rule they are effectively the same as a so called project player.

I'd disagree on the terminology. Someone like Josh Strauss.... an obvious project player. Someone like Mouritz Botha.... I don't even think Worcester had him on their radar when he walked through Heathrow let alone the RFU.

If they were tapped up beforehand yes I agree, if after say 5 years someone said, by jove!!! You dear chap can play for "xyz" then its simply just one of those things... like the old days where you represented the country you lived in... not the country you're from (well most of the time at least).

Simple question how many players have played for England in the last 12 years who only qualify through residency
For Ireland the answer is 1 - Strauss, Payne will be the 2nd

Also to repeat myself

'Also lets put this grooming players for Ireland nonsense to bed.
What used to be called Project players were brought over to fill in skill gaps at the Provinces concerned they were not brought in to become Irleand players - that is a very very occassional by product.
Think about it If it was about grooming players for Ireland then it would be a complete and utter sign of gross incompetance.
1 players, who is not key, playing a couple of games over a 12 year period - thats the total sum of Project International appearance.
Does that seem like part of a master plan - hardly !!'

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Whatever about Ireland wanting him in the future, Ulster would have missed him something cronically (as you can see from what Ulster fans say about him). They would also be losing Afoa & Muller at the end of this season, so they probably need to retain as much quality as possible.

No doubt, he's probably been the best performing outside back in the Pro12 of late. He's that good. He's like our Isa Nacewa.

Bit harsh on Johne Murphy.

Right enough he does remind me a lot of Johne Murphy.

Geoff wrote:'Also lets put this grooming players for Ireland nonsense to bed.
What used to be called Project players were brought over to fill in skill gaps at the Provinces concerned they were not brought in to become Irleand players - that is a very very occassional by product.
Think about it If it was about grooming players for Ireland then it would be a complete and utter sign of gross incompetance.
1 players, who is not key, playing a couple of games over a 12 year period - thats the total sum of Project International appearance.
Does that seem like part of a master plan - hardly !!'.

Then why distinguish between NIQ players and NIQ player that may gain Irish qualification? Why not just have 6 NIQ limit rather than 5+1? Just being the system hasn't brought in any players good enough for Ireland doesn't mean it's there. The RFU have a system for getting excellence at elite level but we're not winning many championships. Tigers have a system for being the best domestic team in the World but they're not.

Hammer we no longer make that distinction, the 5+1 concept has been dropped.
We on here use the term as a legacy.

Would have to trawl back elsewhere but as I have posted it is no longer hard and fast more a case of negotiation between Provinces and IRFU. The IRFU did try to bring in new rules re 1 NIQ per position but the 3 senior provinces rebelled leading to no clear defined rules.
The IRFU reserve the right to block any NIQ players getting a contract but that is about it.

The history is that the IRFU brought in the limit on NIQ of 4 players but the Provinces asked what about the situation where we simply have no one coming through in a particular position over and above that what can we do. The IRFU essentially said ok you can have one more but they cannot be  a full international. This was many years ago and the key point is it was driven by the needs of the Province not the needs on the National team.

If a Provinces is particularly weak in an area I can see them being allowed more players ala Connaught.
If for example Murray, JJ, Earls and Zebo all had career ending injuries or simply left I suspect Munster would be allowed more NIQ for a couple of years to recover so that there performances did not drop through the floor.

I hate the term "project player", lets be honest, would Jared Payne get into the New Zealand side ? I would have to say NO. This is why he is in Ireland, he wants to make a living out of playing rugby and he can get more out of that living by playing in and for Ireland, otherwise he would not be here, the fact of the matter is the term "project player" is just another way of poaching, except the term project player sounds nicer.

Just to clear up, Payne was not originally signed with a view to become BODs successor. Ulster (David Humphreys) had lined up Cory Jane - an established AB, but he flaked out so they lined up Payne instead.

"lets be honest, would Jared Payne get into the New Zealand side" ?

The ABs tried in vain to get him to return. He wouldn't have been a first choice player but an occasional bench option covering 13 and 15.
If he wanted to play at all levels then Ireland was the place to be, if he wanted club rugby with the odd chance at international then the return home was the option. As a player it's a bit of a no-brainer really as someone who wants a better financial return for their career, once again a no-brainer. The fact he has now been penciled in as BODs successor is a bonus.

To embellish Toml comment Payne was brought in because Ulster had a weakness at 15 following from Bryn Cunningham retiring earlier than expected.
D'Arcy was brought in the as a stop gap measure but was not considered good enough.

Prior to joining Ulster Payne won 2 player of the month awards in the Super15 in the same year - that was some feat.
I reckon he would have been a squad player for NZ but not a regular international.
Playing for Ireland was not his motivation for moving, simple matter of better salaries here - the possibility of playing for Ireland has emerged later.
This goes back to the point that residency based players are not here, primarily, to bolster Ireland, but to enhance the Provinces.
Playing for Ireland is a by product, not the driver

I think the IRFU panicked in giving him a central contract. There is so much bruhaha and obsession over who will replace O'Driscoll as if it has to be a like for like replacement. Whatever happens we wont be able to replace him but that doesnt mean we cant have a stronger team without him. Play to your strengths elsewhere, play as a strong team.

No one should be offered a central contract before they have played a game for Ireland.

LordDowlais wrote:I hate the term "project player", lets be honest, would Jared Payne get into the New Zealand side ?

The NZRFU were pretty upset publically about Payne going as they had planned on calling him up as cover for Conrad Smith. Payne basically felt he'd missed his chance with the AB's so signed to come to Ulster.

I do wonder if he hadn't have had that year off with the cruciate injury would he have returned to try and push for the ABs after the 2 years... non the less NZs loss is Ulster and Ireland gain.

how many players in Ireland get central contracts.. are they preferred over club contracts.

In SA its better because the players salaries are part funded by the union under the guise that they won't be over utilised in the Currie Cup for instance.

Pete, I am not blaming the player for getting as much as he could, as you said it is a no-brainer, what I do not like is the fact that if a player can see he is not good enough in their own country, then instead of perhaps trying harder, he choses to switch is nationality and become something else, this is what is wrong in so many ways within rugby union, and the phrase "project player" is just a sugar coated way of saying poaching.

GunsGerms wrote:I think the IRFU panicked in giving him a central contract. There is so much bruhaha and obsession over who will replace O'Driscoll as if it has to be a like for like replacement. Whatever happens we wont be able to replace him but that doesnt mean we cant have a stronger team without him. Play to your strengths elsewhere, play as a strong team.

No one should be offered a central contract before they have played a game for Ireland.

There was no panic - the IRFU had invested a lot of hope in Keith Earls and to a lesser extent Fergus McFadden and eventually lost patience with both so decided to look elsewhere and the obvious candidate was Payne - given his prior form and experience at outside centre. He was approached and indicated his desire to play there for Ireland so it was a no brainer.

The number of kiwi's in the game both players and coaches is mind boggling.

Yes talented but its a stop gap and a recipe for long term disaster.

Before we accepted peaks and troughs of talent... now we plug the gap as much as possible to maintain a certain competitiveness.... but at what cost???

Who would you rather have on your line. A man defending his home, his land or a hired soldier???? Mercenaries only take so much even if he is higher skilled.

Lord Dowlais please read what I said - playing for Ireland was not the reason he came here.


Rodders makes an excellent point - that injury was crucial.
It put him back a year and probably considerably lessened any chance of returning to stake a claim on an AB jersey.
He also went public and said the support he got from Ulster during his injury was wonderful and he felt it would have been a dishonourable thing for him to leave and not pay the team back in some way for their support.
I suspect that was when he first considered the possibility of playing for Ireland.

If you listen to Schmidt the 13 jersey seems to be a head to head between - Henshaw, Cave and Payne.
Strong hints Henshaw and Cave will get a game each in the summer

fa0019 wrote:The number of kiwi's in the game both players and coaches is mind boggling.

Yes talented but its a stop gap and a recipe for long term disaster.

Before we accepted peaks and troughs of talent... now we plug the gap as much as possible to maintain a certain competitiveness.... but at what cost???

Who would you rather have on your line. A man defending his home, his land or a hired soldier???? Mercenaries only take so much even if he is higher skilled.

Which is why Ireland have an upper limit on how many NIQ players the 3 senior provinces can have each year.
Ulster will have 3 or 4 next year, in the squad - how many English teams can match that.

Allied to the fact very few players leave Ireland - only Sexton at the moment - the system works very well.

Is there any player who left SA or NZ prior to getting a cap and returned before achieving one???

I can't think of  one off the top of my head.

If you're not on the radar by the time you're 24, you're not going to make it.

geoff998rugby wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The number of kiwi's in the game both players and coaches is mind boggling.

Yes talented but its a stop gap and a recipe for long term disaster.

Before we accepted peaks and troughs of talent... now we plug the gap as much as possible to maintain a certain competitiveness.... but at what cost???

Who would you rather have on your line. A man defending his home, his land or a hired soldier???? Mercenaries only take so much even if he is higher skilled.

Which is why Ireland have an upper limit on how many NIQ players the 3 senior provinces can have each year.
Ulster will have 3 or 4 next year, in the squad - how many English teams can match that.

Allied to the fact very few players leave Ireland - only Sexton at the moment - the system works very well.

 

Does this include chaps like Payne who are not yet qualified for Ireland as a NIQ? I see Ulster has 7 SH players in their first team squad at the moment.

Yes it does we will only have, at most, 4 NIQ players in the squad next year.

As for this year - we have 4 Internationals - Muller, Pienaer, Afoa, Williams
                                     1 not eligible - Payne
                                     1 who has qualified through residency - Diack
                                     I assume the others you are thinking of are Doyle and Herring who qualify via family members
Muller and Afoa are retiring or leaving and Payne will become eligible
We will sign  an NIQ Lock and, maybe, a TH
Any other signings will be IQ

fa the only players Ulster have who are not qualified to play for Ireland are Pienaar, Muller, Afoa, Williams and Payne.

Everybody else could be picked for an Ireland test tomorrow.

fa0019 wrote:Is there any player who left SA or NZ prior to getting a cap and returned before achieving one???

I can't think of  one off the top of my head.

If you're not on the radar by the time you're 24, you're not going to make it.

Brad Thorn.

Sonny Bill played for Toulon before he got AB caps too.

LordDowlais wrote:Pete, I am not blaming the player for getting as much as he could, as you said it is a no-brainer, what I do not like is the fact that if a player can see he is not good enough in their own country, then instead of perhaps trying harder, he choses to switch is nationality and become something else, this is what is wrong in so many ways within rugby union, and the phrase "project player" is just a sugar coated way of saying poaching.

I know what you mean but my point is that he WAS good enough for the ABs who made a fuss when he left NZ and tried to entice him back some time after.
I watched Payne playing for the Blues and he was on the Super Rugby XV of the season on some sites along with non other than John Afoa, someone else who was Ulster bound. The rest is history. It may be looked upon as poaching but if we can poach a potential AB I would take them every time.

I am not even a bit ashamed to say so

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I think the IRFU panicked in giving him a central contract. There is so much bruhaha and obsession over who will replace O'Driscoll as if it has to be a like for like replacement. Whatever happens we wont be able to replace him but that doesnt mean we cant have a stronger team without him. Play to your strengths elsewhere, play as a strong team.

No one should be offered a central contract before they have played a game for Ireland.

There was no panic - the  IRFU had invested a lot of hope in Keith Earls and to a lesser extent Fergus McFadden and eventually lost patience with both so decided to look elsewhere and the obvious candidate was Payne - given his prior form and experience at outside centre. He was approached and indicated his desire to play there for Ireland so it was a no brainer.

Kidney wouldnt know what to do with Earls or McFadden or any other fringe back if the angel gabriel appeared and told him they were the second coming.

Schmidt will get the best out of them.

I hope so Guns, I always had high hopes for Earls but he seems to have been badly managed. Some solid guidance could do wonders for him as he has superb skills that need tapped correctly.

Pete330v2 wrote:I hope so Guns, I always had high hopes for Earls but he seems to have been badly managed. Some solid guidance could do wonders for him as he has superb skills that need tapped correctly.

100%. Earls is a guy that could be incredible with the right guidance.

Geoff, didn't realise it had changed. Cheers

When did it change? Was it 2013 when those other crazy changes were supposed to (one NIQ player in each position, no renewed contracts, etc) but got changed?

Yep the 2013 discussions were the IRFU proposal t replace the old 4+1.
As the 3 big boys rebelled what we are left with is no defined number just an effective IRFU power of veto on any NIQ contract.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I hope so Guns, I always had high hopes for Earls but he seems to have been badly managed. Some solid guidance could do wonders for him as he has superb skills that need tapped correctly.

100%. Earls is a guy that could be incredible with the right guidance.

Even the archangel Gabriel himself couldn't guide Keith Earls into a top outside centre.  

I reckon Joe Schmidt might be able to though. I dont think its time to send Earls to London irish yet.

LordDowlais wrote: the fact of the matter is the term "project player" is just another way of poaching, except the term project player sounds nicer.

That I would agree with.