Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread III

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Historical Banter:

https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
 
A. Edinburgh
 
1. Pre-season
 
Fri 30 Aug 2013, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 15 - 5 Newcastle Falcons
 
Fri 23 Aug 2013, 19:30
Northampton Saints 24 - 6 Edinburgh Rugby
 
2. 2013/2014 Season - Played
 
Sat 7 Sep, 19:15
Munster Rugby 34 - 23 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 13 Sep, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 13 Newport Gwent Dragons
 
Sat 21 Sep, 18:30
Ospreys 44 - 10 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 27 Sep, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 9 - 22 Scarlets
 
Sun 6 Oct, 14:05
Cardiff Blues 29 - 12 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 25 Oct, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 20 - 13 Benetton Treviso
 
Fri 1 Nov 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 25 - 23 Zebre
 
Fri 22 Nov 19:05
Ulster Rugby 41 - 17 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 29 Nov 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 43 - 10 Connacht
 
Fri 20 Dec 19:35
Edinburgh Rugby 11 - 6 Leinster
 
Thu 26 Dec 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors
 
Wed 1 Jan 18:05
Glasgow Warriors P - P Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sat 15 Feb 17:00
Connacht Rugby 11 - 7 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sat 22 Feb 14:30
Scarlets 25 - 21 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 28 Feb 19:35
Edinburgh Rugby 31 - 25 Ospreys
 
Fri 21 Mar 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 3 - 9 Ulster Rugby
 
Sat 29 Mar 19:00
Benetton Treviso 20 - 16 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Thu 3 Apr 18:30
Newport Gwent Dragons 19 - 23 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 11 Apr 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 22 - 29 Cardiff Blues
 
Sat 19 Apr 15:30
Zebre 26 - 13 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sat 26 Apr 19:05
Glasgow Warriors 37 - 34 Edinburgh Rugby
 
3. 2013/2014 Season - Final Games
 
Sat 3 May 17:00
Edinburgh Rugby v Munster Rugby
Meggetland
BBCALBA/TG4
 
Sat 10 May 18:30
Leinster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby
Royal Dublin Society
 
B. Glasgow
 
1. Pre-season
 
Sat 31 Aug 2013, 15:00
Exeter Chiefs 26 - 29 Glasgow Warriors
 
2. 2013/2014 Season
 
Fri 6 Sep, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 22 - 15 Cardiff Blues
 
Fri 13 Sep, 19:05
Ulster Rugby 12 - 13 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 20 Sep, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 12 - 6 Leinster Rugby
 
Fri 27 Sep, 19:30
Zebre 17 - 24 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sat 5 Oct, 18:30
Scarlets 12 - 17 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 25 Oct, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 6 - 13 Munster Rugby
 
Sat 2 Nov, 17:00
Connacht Rugby 12 - 19 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 22 Nov, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 8 - 23 Newport Gwent Dragons
 
Fri 29 Nov, 19:05
Ospreys 16 - 28 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 20 Dec, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors P - P Benetton Treviso
 
Thu 26 Dec 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors
 
Wed 1 Jan 18:05
Glasgow Warriors P - P Edinburgh Rugby
 
Sun 9 Feb 14:00
Glasgow Warriors 8 - 6 Connacht Rugby
 
Sat 15 Feb 18:30
Cardiff Blues 20 - 27 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sun 23 Feb 14:30
Newport Gwent Dragons 24 - 23 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sat 1 Mar 20:30
Leinster Rugby 28 - 25 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sat 22 Mar 18:30
Glasgow Warriors 14 - 6 Scarlets
 
Fri 28 Mar 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 11 - 9 Ospreys
 
Fri 4 Apr 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 29 - 10 Benetton Treviso
 
Sat 12 Apr 18:30
Munster Rugby 5 - 22 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 18 Apr 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 27 - 9 Ulster Rugby
 
Sat 26 Apr 19:05
Glasgow Warriors 37 - 34 Edinburgh Rugby
 
3. 2013/2014 Season - Final Games
 
Fri 2 May 20:00
Benetton Treviso v Glasgow Warriors
Stadio Monigo
Mediast/ALBA
 
Sat 10 May 18:30
Glasgow Warriors v Zebre
Scotstoun Stadium
 
[16/17/18 May
PO Semi Final
[tbc] v [tbc]
Venue TBA]
 
[Sat 31 May
PO Final
[tbc] v [tbc]
Venue TBA]
 
***
 
Any and all patter about these teams is welcome.
 
Any jingoism, sledging or graceless kicking of anyone whilst they are up or down will see posts deleted.
 
Be gracious and be constructive.

[funnyExiledScot]

Now that sounds promising.

A nice contrast to Visser's motto: "if you commit to the tackle you might get hurt or, even worse, damage your looks, so don't".

We could use a bit a "nasty" in our pack. Sean Cox was pleasingly brutal and I can't help but feel we've done away with his services a little hastily. Basilia also had a streak of the nutter about him, and he was never rated appropriately highly by the Edinburgh coaches in my view.

[MacKnocked-on]

Pro contract straight from school, similar to John Barclay and he turned out well.

[RDW]

I'm trying to think what this entire team of SQ under 23s would be:

1 - Dell
2 - Turner
3 - Berghan (23)
4 - Toolis
5 - Toolis
6 - ?
7 - Watson
8 - Ritchie

9 - Kennedy
10 - S-H-C
11 - Farndale
12 - Matt Scott (23)
13 - Dean
14 - Fife (23)
15 - Hoyland

I suppose you could just about do it.  That team would be shafted sideways if it played in the pro 12 mind! Incredibly exciting backline though.

[funnyExiledScot]

The team would be hammered, but it's pleasing that we at least have some young Scottish talent in the squad. The question is whether Solomons will actually play any of them, or whether players like Strauss, Beard and Bezzy will serve to block their development.

[RDW]

Indeed.

The likes of Chris Dean will be the same age as the Messiah was at the start of this season (20), and I hope they treat him in a similar manner - gradually introduce him to games but give him a good crack at things when he's up to speed.

If Beard and Strauss get a lot more gametime than the likes of Dean, Farndale and Hoyland then there's something really wrong.

[RuggerRadge2611]

It's hard enough to get behind Edinburgh when you don't live in the capital, It's worse now. The team are without passion or soul.

Solomons is rebuilding but I feel even more disconnected with Edinburgh these days.

Doesn't look like it's changing.

[funnyExiledScot]

What would be great is if Solomons committed to a XV in one of the first 5 home games of the season that was completely SQ. I'd love to see an Edinburgh side play where each and every player on the pitch qualified to play for Scotland.

I appreciate that is isn't realistic all season, and we have some very good NSQ players in the squad that deserve to be in the XV, but I'd just like to see it once this season.

Another suggestion could be an unwritten rule for the 1872 fixtures to be SQ only. Imagine that, a fixture where all 46 players had to qualify for Scotland.

[EWT Spoons]

Another suggestion could be an unwritten rule for the 1872 fixtures to be SQ only. Imagine that, a fixture where all 46 players had to qualify for Scotland.

We'd get horsed...well more horsed than currently....horsedered (I don't think thats a word)  Glasgow's first xv is nearly all SQ anyway, whereas we're miles away from having that.

[nickj]

That's a cracking idea FES. If only it were possible. In my opinion the 1872 matches have become too important to become a possibles vs probables trial, but I don't see why we couldn't add a fixture like that to the end of the season.

[RuggerRadge2611]

It's not so much about being SQ.

The soap dodgers look like they would crall along a floor covered with broken glass with their zippers down for their coach and each other.

Edinburgh don't look united, and they don't look like they are playing for each other, the badge or the coach.

[funnyExiledScot]

Another suggestion could be an unwritten rule for the 1872 fixtures to be SQ only. Imagine that, a fixture where all 46 players had to qualify for Scotland.

We'd get horsed...well more horsed than currently....horsedered (I don't think thats a word)  Glasgow's first xv is nearly all SQ anyway, whereas we're miles away from having that.

That's true, but it would throw the Edinburgh transfer policy into stark reality.

Glasgow next season:

1.Grant 2.Hall 3.Welsh 4.Swinson 5.Gray 6.Harley 7.Fusaro 8.Wilson 9.Pyrgos 10.Russell 11.Seymour 12.Horne 13.Dunbar 14.Mailtand 15.Murchie

Edinburgh next season:

1.Dickinson 2.Ford 3.Dell 4.Gilchrist 5.Toolis 6.Ritchie 7.Grant 8.Denton 9.Kennedy 10.Tonks 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Fife 14.Hoyland 15.Cuthbert

We may survive in the backs, but our pack would be completely shamed.

[RDW]

Fully SQ might not be possible, but limiting it so that you can only have 3 NSQ players in your 23 would be a bit more realistic.

Edinburgh would have Du Preez, Nel and Bresler (if he's coming), Glasgow would have Strauss, Niko and Nakarawa - don't think anyone would begrudge seeing those 6 players in action surrounded by SQ players.

[jimbopip]

RDW, remember Bluto will be SQ soon enough.

[RDW]

As will Nel, but you get my general point! By the next 1872 games they won't be.

[funnyExiledScot]

I actually think the 1872 becoming SQ only would have a really positive effect. Both sides would need to ensure that the squads are ready for it, and that would mean giving fringe SQ players more gametime ahead of the fixtures. Players like Farndale, Hoyland, Ritchie et al would need to be involved ahead of and in those games. I think it would be great personally, and yes, even though Edinburgh would be spanked (we lose anyway).

[RDW]

The problem is it raises the level of interference the SRU have on Glasgow and Edinburgh to a whole new level.

Would Toonie and Solomons really be happy not being able to play Strauss/Du Preez etc for what is a must win game? And given that an SQ alternative would have to be up to speed leading up to the game, would they be happy giving the SQ player more gametime leading up to it if they are inferior to their NSQ alternative?

Again Glasgow would be OK but we've just seen now that, Denton aside, the next SQ 6/8 in the Edinburgh squad is 17 years old.

[funnyExiledScot]

I personally don't think Toonie would have a big issue with it, and whilst Solomons probably would, the problems Edinburgh have are of their own doing. With this proposal in mind he may have thought twice about ditching Cross, MacAlpine, Rennie, Leonard and NDL.

I think both sides should have a servicable SQ XV. It was the whole point in reducing the club program down to two professional sides - to concentrate Scottish talent to improve standards. I'm pretty sure back in the 90's the SRU did not have in mind that the main function of the two pro sides would be to serve as a retirement home for journeyman players from New Zealand, Australia and South Africa. Each NSQ player absolutely must bring something to the table that just isn't available in Scotland. It's really come to something when one of our two professional sides cannot contemplate having to play two games a season without foreign players, because the side wouldn't be competitive.

[tigertattie]

As has been said, he is a better signing than the likes of Atiga!

This is what I hope solomons leaves Edinburgh with! A bucket load of home grown talent to choose from and a decent academy type set up to continue producing the youngsters!

[BigGee]

Is slightly strange he’s gone straight into a pro contract, but clearly someone rates him and as RDW says, he’s a bit of a unit.

Would he be eligible for the McPhail scholarship or does it need to be EDP players who go on that?

Lets hope he turns out to be Edinburgh's Johnny Gray, who though clearly talented, has come through so much quicker than anyone dared hope. Sometimes if you are good enough you are old enough!

You are right about the McPhail though, just like Johnny it sounds like it would be ideal for him.

[jimbopip]

Actually FES, in all seriousness I think the MFL signing a promising young Scottish forward is a great idea.
How long before you decide he's rubbish and pack him off down the road to Scotstoun?
Al Kellock will be winding down in two or three seasons, by which time your lad will be just about ready foe first team action.

[jimbopip]

Jamie Ritchie?
I was in the Paint Thinner's Arms this afternoon and I asked Asbo if he knew of him. He said he hadn't but he had played rugby with his older brother Mbawsa.

[funnyExiledScot]

Actually FES, in all seriousness I think the MFL signing a promising young Scottish forward is a great idea.
How long before you decide he's rubbish and pack him off down the road to Scotstoun?
Al Kellock will be winding down in two or three seasons, by which time your lad will be just about ready foe first team action.

That's the plan Jimbo. By the time this lad is 20 we'll have packed him off to finishing school, and replaced him with Jappe Bothaberger, or someone with a similar name.

[BigGee]

I actually think the 1872 becoming SQ only would have a really positive effect. Both sides would need to ensure that the squads are ready for it, and that would mean giving fringe SQ players more gametime ahead of the fixtures. Players like Farndale, Hoyland, Ritchie et al would need to be involved ahead of and in those games. I think it would be great personally, and yes, even though Edinburgh would be spanked (we lose anyway).

Its a good idea in the fantasy world of rugby forums, but it totally bonkers one in the real world of league positions and qualification for European competitions as well as in terms of spectacle for spectators and rugby fans!

As a Glasgow fan I want to see our best available team out for these and any games. I am pleased that the team is predominantly Scottish but there is no way that players like Niko. Naka, Strauss and DTH diminish the experience at all, quite the opposite they only enhance it.

It may not be quite so obvious at the moment, though you would have to say that Du Preez was one of the standout players in the first 1872 game, when Edinburgh were very competitive and think of the pleasure Visser has given you all over the past few years, but NSQ have also been of great benefit to Edinburgh over the years as well.

This is a very Scottish trait, other countries don't have the same issues with non-nationals playing for their teams as long as they bring something to the party. Look at Toulon for goodness sake, their fans don't seem to be having this debate. Yes we are in the position of only having two pro teams and we do have to be aware of the need to bring through Scottish players, but to say we should only play them in certain games is madness! Despite what is often said, both Glasgow and Edinburgh squads are predominantly Scottish.

Give Solomans some credit in what he is trying to do, he has brought far more young promising players into the squad than any of his recent predecessors did. I thought that was what everyone wanted!

[funnyExiledScot]

Woah there.

Firstly they are most certainly debating the Toulon situation in France. By my count there were three French players in that side. Saint Andre, despite being a buffoon, is bang on lamenting the fact that there are 14 top sides in France and yet he has barely 2 or 3 players to choose from in certain positions (only one forward was French!). That is not a comparable situation for us. They are bank rolled by an individual willing to lose millions just to fulfil his dream. It is an entirely unsustainable model, even with bloated TV revenues. Yes, the Toulon fans will hardly care, but that's because they are loyal to their club. The Scottish pro sides were established to help the national team, and fans by and large are not tribal to their pro side, but supporters of Scottish rugby on the whole.

Secondly, I am not doubting that NSQ players have added a lot to Glasgow and Edinburgh respectively. That's not in questions from me. They play an important role, as they should. As you say, the key is that they bring something to the party. Too many of Edinburgh's NSQ signings have not done that.

Finally, I'm not sure that the comment about "far more young promising players" is quite true. In the squad perhaps, but he's shown very little inclination towards giving young Scottish players game time. He has more to do in that regard. Picking Sam Beard to start on the wing above the young Scottish wingers champing at the bit for game time was a bad decision.

I'll give Solomons credit when results start to improve, and/or he starts developing Scottish talent in the XV. His statement above is good stuff, and I agree with it. But until we start seeing young players breaking into the side, or the side starts winning, the jury is out for me. I don't question his credentials, but we made next to no progress last season. I realise that this is his first proper crack at it, with a proper pre-season with which to condition the players to his strategy, and he deserves that chance.

[RDW]

I'm with FES on this - he can bring in all the young Scottish players he wants but if he keeps picking Strauss at 12 and Beard or Sam H-C on the wing then there's no point in having them!

[BigGee]

I am not defending some of Solomans team selections last year, though in reality he may sometimes have had less options than seemed obvious to us.

Signing promising young players like Hoyland, Dean, Farndale and Ritchie has got to be the way forward. They are all now on full contracts, not EDP's and I think we will see them being gradually introduced next year. They are all young, all playing in the u20's in New Zealand, they are not all just going straight into the team and the ones that were around this year probably were not ready. He at least seems willing to take the gamble on them rather filling up a squad place with someone who could do a job of sorts in the short term. Edinburgh are not going to be turned around in a day or a year but at least now there seems to be some direction in where they are going and making a genuine investment for their future and that of Scottish rugby.

The thing that really annoyed me here though was this idea about Scottish qualified only teams in the derby games. This just devalues the fixture and the league, do you think the other teams in the league would do that as well, I don't think so. The Rabo does struggle for credibility at times and stuff like this would not help at all. How does it effect the NSQ players in the squad, it kind of makes them seem like second class citizens, again not good for general squad moral nor probably for recruitment.

People who drag themselves out in the cold on a boxing day afternoon to pay to see a rugby match deserve to see the best players in the squads playing each other. It is a chance to appeal to people who may not attend these games regularly. Remember the stink when Bradley rested half his team a few years ago and basically threw the game. It did not go down well, nor would this.

[funnyExiledScot]

It's two games. I really don't see how it devalues the league, or makes NSQ players second citizens. Nor do I think that making two games of the season SQ only would in any way affect recruitment.

As one of the paying people who drags himself out in the cold on a Boxing Day afternoon, I for one would have no objection to the 1872 contest being SQ only and would love to see 46 players involved in a game, all of whom qualify to play for Scotland. I think it would add something to the fixture personally.

Still, what is obvious is that it would never happen.

[justified sinner]

I am not defending some of Solomans team selections last year, though in reality he may sometimes have had less options than seemed obvious to us.

Signing promising young players like Hoyland, Dean, Farndale and Ritchie has got to be the way forward. They are all now on full contracts, not EDP's and I think we will see them being gradually introduced next year. They are all young, all playing in the u20's in New Zealand, they are not all just going straight into the team and the ones that were around this year probably were not ready. He at least seems willing to take the gamble on them rather filling up a squad place with someone who could do a job of sorts in the short term. Edinburgh are not going to be turned around in a day or a year but at least now there seems to be some direction in where they are going and making a genuine investment for their future and that of Scottish rugby.

The thing that really annoyed me here though was this idea about Scottish qualified only teams in the derby games. This just devalues the fixture and the league, do you think the other teams in the league would do that as well, I don't think so. The Rabo does struggle for credibility at times and stuff like this would not help at all. How does it effect the NSQ players in the squad, it kind of makes them seem like second class citizens, again not good for general squad moral nor probably for recruitment.

People who drag themselves out in the cold on a boxing day afternoon to pay to see a rugby match deserve to see the best players in the squads playing each other. It is a chance to appeal to people who may not attend these games regularly. Remember the stink when Bradley rested half his team a few years ago and basically threw the game. It did not go down well, nor would this.

This

[RDW]

Jim Hamilton has been confirmed as being off to Saracans.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9329189,00.html

Good move!

[funnyExiledScot]

Agree - the work ethic at Sarries will be good for Hamilton and put him in a strong position for the World Cup next year. He has seriously stiff competition from the Grays, Gilchrist and Swinson, so we really should be able to field a strong on form boiler room at the World Cup next year.

The competition at Sarries is pretty decent as well, with Botha, Kruis and Hargreaves. He won't have it easy breaking into the wolf pack (cringe).

[George Carlin]

Pleased for Big Jemima. I hope he realises that Paul Gustard isn't going to allow him a nice lie-down between line outs and that he'll actually need to tackle a few people.

He does seem to be a ready made replacement for Borthwick in the line-out though. Good luck to the sly old dog.

[funnyExiledScot]

Yeh, I don't think his tried and tested tactic of getting yellow carded for a 10 minute breather will be popular at Sarries.

[reallybored]

Edinburgh still have a gaping hole at fly-half, have done for years.  

A good 13 wouldn't go a miss, there must be someone with a bit of gas and steady defence out there. Could Fife be a long-term option there?

[George Carlin]

Edinburgh still have a gaping hole at fly-half, have done for years.  

A good 13 wouldn't go a miss, there must be someone with a bit of gas and steady defence out there. Could Fife be a long-term option there?

I think that Fife is definitely the next cab off the rank. I think it is much easier to get a half decent winger (and Edinburgh has a lot of those - Farndale and Fleming being the obvious two, in additio to guys like Brown who are also happy there) than it is to get a decent outside centre.

[RDW]

I've said it a few times but ideally Edinburgh need someone like laulala at 13 - a big physical player that gives you go forward, with a bit of gas.

Matt Scott is building himself into that role, but our backline isn't overly physical (even though visser is humongous)

[George Carlin]

Surely there's a spare Tualagi brother going?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I've said it a few times but ideally Edinburgh need someone like laulala at 13 - a big physical player that gives you go forward, with a bit of gas.

Matt Scott is building himself into that role, but our backline isn't overly physical (even though visser is humongous)

Go wash yer mooth oot wi soap, yer a very naughty boy

[RDW]

As in the role of the big physical ball carrier!

I'm firmly in the Matt Scott 12 camp.

[tigertattie]

Careful there RDW!

One must be clear in ones language when one is talking about outside centres and Matt Scott in the same post!

[jimbopip]

Playing Matt Scott12 at 13 would be par for the course for the Luvvies.
Send him to Scotstoun with the other unemployable misfits you have dumped on us. The competition for a jersey would probably bring out the best in him.

[Totalflanker]

What are the thoughts on Rennie - is the door to Edinburgh really closed?

More injury problems and looks like championship rugby next year if he stays put. Don't see Bristol turning around the deficit against Welsh especially given both Jones and Rennie will no doubt miss the second leg.

[RDW]

“I want to be playing in the top flight and regularly representing my country – I’m confident that I can achieve that playing for Bristol."

He definitely won't be achieving that if Bristol don't overturn the large deficit.

[BigGee]

I would not write Bristol off completely, they have been the form team in that league by a mile but for reasons best known to themselves played a very niave game in the conditions last night. They really have got nothing to lose now and if the weather is half decent next week could certainly score a few tries. They will miss Rennie but not Jones so much, he has only played half a game for them prior to last nights game.

[Totalflanker]

Here's hoping they can turn it around for themselves and selfishly Rennie in particular.

Still don't understand the logic of our two most experienced 7s in Barclay and Rennie in the relative wilderness when it comes to playing their club rugby though.

[George Carlin]

The Scarlets love JB though, don't they? He was voted Scotsman Called John of the Season or something, wasn't he?

[Totalflanker]

True enough and even see a number on their forum suggesting him to captain them next year. If truth be known since he signed I now avidly follow Scarlets results and would call them (albeit with arm twisted behind my back ) 'my favourite welsh team', if as a scot that is not one of the greatest oxymorons since morons have deigned to be oxied.

Doesn't deal with the issues that we let probably the only open side we have able to do this head away.

[Guest]

In other news I am sitting here still waiting in a queue for RWC tickets. Against our better judgement my father and I are planning for a lathering night out in Leeds after watching Scotland take on USA.

If we can get them, we also want to see the Wallabies take out Wales, deciding that it would be better to just "see" the Samoa result than have to watch it, and watch it back if the result is positive!

[Guest]

Anyone else involved? Ended up buying for USA & Samoa games.

[funnyExiledScot]

I missed that RWC tickets were on sale. I was certainly going to try and get tickets for the Scotland games in the North East.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

I also forgot to register. Are they doing another round of sales later on?

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