Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

I agree youngs needs something. Great time to give him a rest. Look what it did for robshaw and Hartley during the lions tour.

Youngs has had so much time out with injuries he has had breaks. Problem is, he is a player who needs games to gain and maintain form. As someone who has been outside of the England squad, he will be desperate to be involved again. He needs to tour more than he needs any rest.

Will Greenwood is talking up Cipriani again:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/dannycipriani/10774729/Danny-Cipriani-has-stopped-being-the-showman-and-is-becoming-the-conductor-we-always-hoped-he-would-be.html

I'm not sure I agree with Greenwood that Cipriani has become the player we wanted him to be. I wanted a more experienced version of the pre-injury Cips but he really has never recaptured that spark. He's a different kind of player now.

How come nobody has mentioned the constant crabbing by Care? When Youngs was in the driving seat for England it was constantly mentioned as a bad thing?

Haskell is getting some good press after his tries yesterday. Not a bad time to be putting his hand up but it sounds like defence was optional at times during that match, so it's difficult to judge.

On the AB watch...

This will be the 10 backs bar injury...
Aaron Smith
Aaron Cruden
Julian Savea
Ma’a Nonu
Conrad Smith
Ben Smith
Israel Dagg
Tawera Kerr-Barlow
Beauden Barrett
Charles Piutau

Colin Slade in if Cruden still injured, possibly to start, depending on his continued Saders form.

All are playing very well, perhaps KB and Dagg slightly off the rest but thats a pretty sharp backline at the mo.

When going to NZ, you have to have a range of experienced options in the back row and whilst there are plenty of players with caps, established combinations are a thin on the ground.
Haskell will go and would like to see Fearns go and see if he can knock everything over in range like he normally does - if he can match the inevitable high pace of the game.

Across the rest of the park, there are plenty of good combinations. This could also well be Cipriani's time. It wouldn't surprise me.

Recwatcher wrote:When going to NZ, you have to have a range of experienced options in the back row and whilst there are plenty of players with caps,  established combinations are a thin on the ground.
Haskell will go and would like to see Fearns go and see if he can knock everything over in range like he normally does - if he can match the inevitable high pace of the game.

Across the rest of the park,  there are plenty of good combinations. This could also well be Cipriani's time. It wouldn't surprise me.

I think there's a real benefit to having haskell in the squad. Not necessarily for his playing ability, but strategically. He's played in nz in super rugby. He will have insights no one else has just through experience and familiarity. Even if he doesn't play he can add to the mix.

nathan wrote:How come nobody has mentioned the constant crabbing by Care? When Youngs was in the driving seat for England it was constantly mentioned as a bad thing?

You're on your own there Nath

After this weekend I think we could see Haskell, Ward, Synckler, Wallace and Slater all with a foot on the plane.

I would like to see Ward go to NZ as I have always been impressed with his workrate. He should never have left Bath but along with Hawkins and Brooker, his opportunities at hooker were limited as Lee Mears was so consistent and injury free at club level.

Julian Savea is in ominous form. I think he is going to be NZ's main strike weapon against England. Not just for scoring tries but also setting up players around him. Ben Smith, if he plays on the right wing, will be a marked man. But Savea can be a marked man and still do damage. Who can be that man for England out wide? Tuilagi did the damage in 2012 but NZ are good at adjusting to setbacks. Who are England's main backline threats to NZ? Are Yarde or Wade likely to play any matches?

Kia can't see why the back 3 wouldnt be Smith Savea and Piatau. Dagg just isnt doing it anymore and hes really getting shown up defensively lately, he's not collecting the attacking high balls either. Smith at FB offers more attacking threats off Nonu, Barrett and C Smith and as you say Savea is just in amazing form.

I think Slade will end up as the no. 1 10 by next years world cup as well. If he can keep his head out of silly positions I think he's got all the goods as playmaker, is tops on defence and has vision.

Dagg, even on one leg looked the business on the weekend. Held the crusaders together when read was injured and the composure was lost.

yappysnap wrote:After this weekend I think we could see Haskell, Ward, Synckler, Wallace and Slater all with a foot on the plane.

Would agree with much of that Yappy.

Sinckler, Ward and Slater especially must now be in the drivers seat in positions where new faces will need to be on this tour. Cipriani could be added to the list as well after another very strong showing by all reports.

1.Marler, Mako, Mullan, Waller
2.Hartley, Youngs, Webber, Ward
3.Wilson, Thomas, Sinckler, Brookes
4.Launchbury, Slater
5.Lawes, Attwood, Kitchener
6.Wood, Johnson, Haskell
7.Robshaw, Kvesic, Wallace
8.Billy V, Morgan

9.Care, Youngs, Dickson, Robson
10.Farrell, Ford, Burns, Cipriani

11.Yarde, May
12.Twelvetrees, Barritt
13.Tuilagi, Burrell, Daly
14.Nowell, Ashton - Assuming Wade isn't going to be fit
15.Brown, Foden, Watson - Watson to cover the whole back 3

Players in bold are the ones who are really fighting for a place on the plane I'd say with the others pretty much nailed on to feature in the squad at some point. Would love to see a squad with that sort of potential travel though.

Only guy I'd say I've been harsh on who will likely travel is Goode, but I've included Watson as he offers the versatility to cover the back three. I apologise in advance to Beshocked for it but I'd also be tempted to leave out Barritt and have Burrell as a 12. That way we could have a proper look at Daly as a outside centre option and also fit Eastmond in the squad.

12.Twelvtrees 13.Tuilagi and 12.Burrell 13.Daly are two centre partnerships I'd love to see tried if possible on this tour.

Tman it'd be silly to throw Dagg on the test scrap heap based on Super form. Even without a RWC looming. I think he'll start but will have the thought of having to deliver or be axed at test level. Seems to work for Nonu. Dagg doesn't have to score tries but he needs to enter the line and create opportunities for players around him. He had a horror game against Ireland but he wasn't the only one who didn't look solid that day either. Won't get rid of Richie just yet for similar reasons in Super rugby and the Ireland test. If he fails to deliver at test level then by all means a switch similar to what happened with Muliaina can occur but he still has to play to figure that out.

Piutau is a welcome addition and much like Barrett offers impact off the bench. Cruden seems to be unlucky with the injuries as Slade was so Slade's rise is both timely and comforting.

More pressing for me is some further front row options. We're looking a bit bare at hooker and the props.

yeah front row isnt good. Woodcock and Faumuina get there by default, possibly Coles...big Ben perhaps? locks look to be back ok now and healthy fringe options at loosie as well.

Backs look the richest we've had for a while except for second five and Centre where we've only Nonu and Smith as specialists- time to try Fekitoa? to allow for he and SBW as back up next year. Crotty's a steady without being spectacular type- how come Cantab specialise in those sort of midfielders?

Just not sold on Dagg. Keeps getting turned like he doesnt want to tackle and not as decisive on attack anymore. Its an energy thing for me, just doesnt spark as much anymore.

The front row is soon to be a thing of the past.
An international sport simply can't survive with the farce and debacle of the scrum at the centre of it.

The six nations saw an average of just 32 minutes of rugby per game, with almost the same in scrum resets. Only 22% of scrums completed without an infringement.

The irb's tinkering will soon turn to a hatchet.

GloriousEmpire wrote:The front row is soon to be a thing of the past.
An international sport simply can't survive with the farce and debacle of the scrum at the centre of it.

The six nations saw an average of just 32 minutes of rugby per game, with almost the same in scrum resets.  Only 22% of scrums completed without an infringement.

The irb's tinkering will soon turn to a hatchet.

Na don't think so. Crap pitches at half the venues didn't help and that is being kind to Muddyfield.

The scrum is a thing of beauty and will continue to develop and evolve as the signature piece of our game.

Anyway we could always just stop the clock if people start buggering about?

king_carlos wrote:

yappysnap wrote:After this weekend I think we could see Haskell, Ward, Synckler, Wallace and Slater all with a foot on the plane.

Would agree with much of that Yappy.

Sinckler, Ward and Slater especially must now be in the drivers seat in positions where new faces will need to be on this tour. Cipriani could be added to the list as well after another very strong showing by all reports.

1.Marler, Mako, Mullan, Waller
2.Hartley, Youngs, Webber, Ward
3.Wilson, Thomas, Sinckler, Brookes
4.Launchbury, Slater
5.Lawes, Attwood, Kitchener
6.Wood, Johnson, Haskell
7.Robshaw, Kvesic, Wallace
8.Billy V, Morgan

9.Care, Youngs, Dickson, Robson
10.Farrell, Ford, Burns, Cipriani

11.Yarde, May
12.Twelvetrees, Barritt
13.Tuilagi, Burrell, Daly
14.Nowell, Ashton - Assuming Wade isn't going to be fit
15.Brown, Foden, Watson - Watson to cover the whole back 3

Players in bold are the ones who are really fighting for a place on the plane I'd say with the others pretty much nailed on to feature in the squad at some point. Would love to see a squad with that sort of potential travel though.

Only guy I'd say I've been harsh on who will likely travel is Goode, but I've included Watson as he offers the versatility to cover the back three. I apologise in advance to Beshocked for it but I'd also be tempted to leave out Barritt and have Burrell as a 12. That way we could have a proper look at Daly as a outside centre option and also fit Eastmond in the squad.

12.Twelvtrees 13.Tuilagi and 12.Burrell 13.Daly are two centre partnerships I'd love to see tried if possible on this tour.

Agree with all of that and much of it may be correct. One player who def won't be picked though is Daily, I think Eastmond will take that centre spot.

GloriousEmpire wrote:The front row is soon to be a thing of the past.
An international sport simply can't survive with the farce and debacle of the scrum at the centre of it.

The six nations saw an average of just 32 minutes of rugby per game, with almost the same in scrum resets.  Only 22% of scrums completed without an infringement.

The irb's tinkering will soon turn to a hatchet.

Well you go and watch rugby league and leave us to enjoy rugby union.

The day scrums are "hatcheted" is the day i stop watching rugby union.

I didn't think a year ago I would say this but Cipriani deserves to be there over Burns. Burns was better on Saturday but it's too little too late. Add in the fact that he has played rugby in the Southern Hemisphere and that's him on the plane I think.

Interesting debate on another thread about Wards size.

Is he too small for international Hooker? Tom Youngs is like a tank and it has been suggested that he is too small?
Is Ward at around 5'11 and just under 16st too small?

I agree with a lot of posters on here that Burns has really dropped off in form.
But does everyone think that Cipriani has really turned a corner? He's had a good run of a few games granted, but there are still issues there.

There are options still -
Farrell, Ford and still front runners.
Myler is just back from injury and is the solid but unspectacular option.
Twelvetrees has show he can cover the position with competence (although not a starter).
Burns may regain form - although I suspect he desperately needs a proper pre-season and re-start with Tigers.
I am surprised that more people arent talking about Harry Sloan of Exceter.
Ben Botica of Quins could be involved with the Saxons at some point - shown great glimpses when brought on.

I'm not suggesting that Cipriani should never be involved in the England set-up, but should he start any games for England I would be very nervous. For me he just needs to continue this recent form and then the doors will open for him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting debate on another thread about Wards size.

Is he too small for international Hooker? Tom Youngs is like a tank and it has been suggested that he is too small?
Is Ward at around 5'11 and just under 16st too small?

He reminds me a bit of Brits, very mobile. I don't think he's too small, he's taller than Youngs and yes not quite so square (who is) but if he does the technical stuff well I'm happy.

Does he fit within the blueprint of Englands pack?

I'd say Henry Slade is next inline after the front runners, propdavid, is that who you meant?

Well he's being hailed for his breakdown work (as a former 7) and athleticsim...so i would say he does fit in to the blueprint.

Sorry Badger - Yes, Slade is the chap I meant - apologies

propdavid_london wrote:Sorry Badger - Yes, Slade is the chap I meant - apologies

I think that Slade's goalkicking is the reason many are not talking about him. Right now he is making Ford look like a great goal kicker.

Slade has all the tools in the bag and with some focus on his goal-kicking, will be a coming force over the next couple of seasons.

I honestly think he may travel as third choice FH and pip Cipriani to it but I may be wrong.

On the Ward front I think he's demonstrated in some very tough HEC games that he has the physicality at a higher level.

Look at Ed Slater for example, there are bigger locks around, both taller and heavier but he uses his size to excellent effect. Ward is the same, he always seems a nightmare to play against and he makes use of his height to good effect on the ground.

I also heard that Dylan Hartley may not be back before the end of the season. It's possible he may miss the NZ tour altogether. That would leave Tom Youngs as No.1 hooker with Webber, only just returning from injury as back-up to that.

The plane could look like: Tom Youngs, Rob Webber, Dave Ward, Jamie George

LondonTiger wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Sorry Badger - Yes, Slade is the chap I meant - apologies

I think that Slade's goalkicking is the reason many are not talking about him. Right now he is making Ford look like a great goal kicker.

No worries propdavid!

Ah, well if push came to shove how about playing him alongside 12Trees, who isn't a bad kicker at all. Though that's more of a shoehorn approach to be fair.

It will be very interesting how Ford's kicking stands up over 80 mins of test rugby. He's clearly number 2 at present and with good reason. Just a shame he didn't get more 6 nations game time.

Question, who on earth will be running out in the BaaBaas game at this rate?? U20s??

Question, who on earth will be running out in the BaaBaas game at this rate?? U20s??

Ah plenty if they are fit.

Players like Mark Wilson (Falcons excellent back rower), Dom Barrow, Matt Garvey   , Kitchener (who i dont think will travel) Robson (Quins lock), Parling...etc

Nathan Catt at LH maybe..

For the Baa Baas

Something like:

1 Catt
2 Buchanan / Gray
3 Collier
4 Barrow
5 Kitchener
6 Gibson
7 Welch / Seymour
8 Dickinson? If he doesnt travel to NZ

9 Spencer / Robson
10 Myler / Ford / Slade / Cipriani - Whoever doesnt go to NZ
11 Benjamin / Ojo
12 Turner Hall
13 Joseph
14 Banahan
15 Alex Tait

Now I have spent a fortune watching England play live, but even so I would feel a smidge aggrieved if I paid a bit of money to watch that team. I hope the tickets are priced accordingly.

Yeah i agree! But if Englands taking 40 +, the U20's are in the JWC...

Its not leaving a huge amount for the Baas Baas.

Who else could play?

So Barbarians game is for those not touring to NZ, what about the AP final?

It's been rendered as a bit of a nothing game in which case. It seems as though it could be useful in having a look at some new talent and combinations for the future though. This would be my side:

1. A Waller - not sure how many props we'll take. Corbs being fit he'll take a spot.
2. L Cowan-Dickie - he could be an exceptional player and will get a lot more time for Chiefs.
3. P Doran-Jones - I think Sinckler and S Wilson could tour. It's a big chance for PDJ.
4. E Stooke - a lot of people are going weak at the knees about Patterson and he may tour.
5. G Kitchener - don't know if he's done enough to tour recently.
6. M Garvey - has to get a chance at some point!
7. W Fraser - played on the w/end for Sarries. An awesome talent lacking game-time.
8. D Ewers - can't see him touring at present and he's another good prospect.

9. D Robson - been superb when he's had a chance for Gloucester.
10. F Burns - i'm certain he won't tour and this might be another good chance for him.
11. J Elliot - good winger and might show something in this game.
12. M Banahan - he's a much better player than his previous England outings.
13. J Joseph - nice club pairing and gives Joseph a shot post-injury.
14. C Sharples - more pace and has developed since '12.
15. R Miller - high quality FB and he looked excellent in the Saxons games.

16. R Buchanan 17. E Waller 18. S Knight 19. C Matthews 20. J Gibson 21. D Lewis 22. S Myler 23. B Ransom

Oooh, yes - the BaaBaa's game - so, we cant pick players going in the Prem final or 1st choicers for the NZ tour (as they wouldnt be ready for the 1st test).

Asuming a Saints-Sarries final

Catt, Cowan-Dickie, K.Brookes
Dom Barrow, Robson
Gibson, Wallace, Guest
K.Dickson
H.Sloan
Varndell
E.Daly
Trinder
Sharples
Abendanon

still with guys like -
C.Fearns, Matt Garvey, Charlie Matthews, Buchanan, scot Wilson etc.

Ha - chjw - I guess its good that we can pick 2 pretty different sides from the remaining players available.
Testament to the quality available.

Chjw131 wrote:So Barbarians game is for those not touring to NZ, what about the AP final?

It's been rendered as a bit of a nothing game in which case. It seems as though it could be useful in having a look at some new talent and combinations for the future though. This would be my side:

1. A Waller - not sure how many props we'll take. Corbs being fit he'll take a spot.
2. L Cowan-Dickie - he could be an exceptional player and will get a lot more time for Chiefs.
3. P Doran-Jones - I think Sinckler and S Wilson could tour. It's a big chance for PDJ.
4. E Stooke - a lot of people are going weak at the knees about Patterson and he may tour.
5. G Kitchener - don't know if he's done enough to tour recently.
6. M Garvey - has to get a chance at some point!
7. W Fraser - played on the w/end for Sarries. An awesome talent lacking game-time.
8. D Ewers - can't see him touring at present and he's another good prospect.

9. D Robson - been superb when he's had a chance for Gloucester.
10. F Burns - i'm certain he won't tour and this might be another good chance for him.
11. J Elliot - good winger and might show something in this game.
12. M Banahan - he's a much better player than his previous England outings.
13. J Joseph - nice club pairing and gives Joseph a shot post-injury.
14. C Sharples - more pace and has developed since '12.
15. R Miller - high quality FB and he looked excellent in the Saxons games.

16. R Buchanan 17. E Waller 18. S Knight 19. C Matthews 20. J Gibson 21. D Lewis 22. S Myler 23. B Ransom

Is this the team that is going to play the barbarians?

Or is this the team that you hope will play the barbarians?

yappysnap wrote:

nathan wrote:How come nobody has mentioned the constant crabbing by Care? When Youngs was in the driving seat for England it was constantly mentioned as a bad thing?

You're on your own there Nath

I personally don't mind it, but everyone else did when Youngs was doing it. Care has been doing it just wondered why nobody had picked up on it.

nathan wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

nathan wrote:How come nobody has mentioned the constant crabbing by Care? When Youngs was in the driving seat for England it was constantly mentioned as a bad thing?

You're on your own there Nath

I personally don't mind it, but everyone else did when Youngs was doing it. Care has been doing it just wondered why nobody had picked up on it.

Possibly because Care has been doing it much less than he used to (can't say I've noticed it this season), and because it hasn't detracted from England's attack.

Well not sure Care is doing it any less than he has in previous seasons. Difference for England has been that there have been a number of big physical ball carriers available and a 10 who is willing to challenge the gain line. All of a sudden crabbing sideways can put them in a hole, or find a gap for yourself.

The key difference for Care this season is that the england management unleashed the shackles on him - and he felt confident enough to play like he does for Quins, rather than trying to be a box-kicking, safety first SH that they have demanded previously.

Crabbing is used as a club when a scrum half is out of favour. If they're in favour, they're keeping the ruck defence honest, probing for gaps.

HammerofThunor wrote:Crabbing is used as a club when a scrum half is out of favour. If they're in favour, they're keeping the ruck defence honest, probing for gaps.

That's a little overly simplistic.

Like any skill it can be done well or done poorly. Youngs problem wasn't the crabbing, it was the pause-hesitate-look one way-look the other-then crab slowly. If he's not doing that any more then great.

6. M Garvey - has to get a chance at some point!

Oh Chjw...we all know that ship has sailed...and whilst Lancs is in charge he will never ever wear the white shirt. Maybe swap him for his club colleague Fearns

propdavid_london wrote:Ha - chjw - I guess its good that we can pick 2 pretty different sides from the remaining players available.  
Testament to the quality available.

Indeed, and the depth is increasing all the time. There are some highly rated talents that we've not seen appear for a while. The likes of James Craig at Saints was looking exceptional some time ago. Likewise Dom Barrow has really impressed me and he's only just left the U20s.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:So Barbarians game is for those not touring to NZ, what about the AP final?

It's been rendered as a bit of a nothing game in which case. It seems as though it could be useful in having a look at some new talent and combinations for the future though. This would be my side:

1. A Waller - not sure how many props we'll take. Corbs being fit he'll take a spot.
2. L Cowan-Dickie - he could be an exceptional player and will get a lot more time for Chiefs.
3. P Doran-Jones - I think Sinckler and S Wilson could tour. It's a big chance for PDJ.
4. E Stooke - a lot of people are going weak at the knees about Patterson and he may tour.
5. G Kitchener - don't know if he's done enough to tour recently.
6. M Garvey - has to get a chance at some point!
7. W Fraser - played on the w/end for Sarries. An awesome talent lacking game-time.
8. D Ewers - can't see him touring at present and he's another good prospect.

9. D Robson - been superb when he's had a chance for Gloucester.
10. F Burns - i'm certain he won't tour and this might be another good chance for him.
11. J Elliot - good winger and might show something in this game.
12. M Banahan - he's a much better player than his previous England outings.
13. J Joseph - nice club pairing and gives Joseph a shot post-injury.
14. C Sharples - more pace and has developed since '12.
15. R Miller - high quality FB and he looked excellent in the Saxons games.

16. R Buchanan 17. E Waller 18. S Knight 19. C Matthews 20. J Gibson 21. D Lewis 22. S Myler 23. B Ransom

Is this the team that is going to play the barbarians?

Or is this the team that you hope will play the barbarians?

It's a team I would like to see put out. I guess we won't get the team until the week preceeding the game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

6. M Garvey - has to get a chance at some point!

Oh Chjw...we all know that ship has sailed...and whilst Lancs is in charge he will never ever wear the white shirt. Maybe swap him for his club colleague Fearns

You're probably right there GF but with so many possibly unavailable surely he has to get a look in. As you say more likely Fearns or Gibson though.

The second row stable is looking frighteningly good.

Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood - Current 3 first choicers.

Following that (at various stages of development):
Slater, Kitchener, Kruis, Barrow, Stooke, Parling, Itoje (U20's)

Plus the likes of Garvey who arent even considered.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The second row stable is looking frighteningly good.

Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood - Current 3 first choicers.

Following that (at various stages of development):
Slater, Kitchener, Kruis, Barrow, Stooke, Parling, Itoje (U20's)

Plus the likes of Garvey who arent even considered.

Don't jinx it!! Could it be that England are finally using their grassroots and age-group resources to good effect?? But I agree the forwards are really starting to come together with some strength in depth. We need back up THs and Flankers to follow suit and..............