Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

Twelvetrees is a regular captain this year for Gloucester.

Hartleys discipline for England has been almost perfect i would say. He could easily be the captain.

Wood has experience also with Saints.

Those would be my choices if Robshaw was not available.

Interesting to hear about Twelvetrees.

The other issue with Hartley is Lancaster's desire to substitute him. I prefer a captain to play through a match.

I thought Wood regularly played 7 for Saints? I don't think it's an unfamiliar position for him and in any case the way England play the gap between 6 & 7 is small (basically link play). He'd by my choice for back up captain. Lawes, Care or Hartley are all options as well.

Shame that Kruis is injured. He was very impressive when I saw him this season.

Poorfour wrote:I thought Wood regularly played 7 for Saints? I don't think it's an unfamiliar position for him and in any case the way England play the gap between 6 & 7 is small (basically link play). He'd by my choice for back up captain. Lawes, Care or Hartley are all options as well.

Agreed on Wood being back up and he still plays the majority of his rugby at 7 for Saints (although like England the gap between 6 & 7 is small), mainly due to Clark being first choice 6.

I feel Hartley is a probably better leader but agree with the poster who stated a few posts above that (and even as a Saints fan) I generally prefer the captain to stay on the field for the full 80 mins and by choosing a player in a specialist position then it can cause selection issues. Do you keep the captain on the field as his leadership is critical even though as a player you feel the replacement in that position could make a greater playing impact? Wouldn't choose Care for this reason either (hopefully B. Youngs reclaims his position back in the 23), and although Lawes did a good job with the lineout I'm not sure he's leadership material yet.

Kind of hope that if he stays at Wasps then Launchbury gets some captaincy experience there. He's a excellent established all round player and he seems to have an assured personality that reminds me a little of a younger Robshaw when he first took over the job at Quins. Plus didn't I read that he was some kind of lead boy or something at his school (or whatever those arty-farty private school positions are)? Still young yes but gaining experience all the time and plays in a position where he's in the thick of the action and is likely to play the full 80 without detriment to the team.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon Sarries did play well though I did think before the game that the Sarries backrow looked much stronger on paper - playing Wood vs Billy at 8 was a real head scratcher too.

Wood played 7 this week with Manoa at 8 (he was at 8 against Tigers the previous week due to injuries to both Manoa & Dickinson). The Saints pack as a whole were second best, thought Kelly Brown was brilliant and didn't get the praise his performance deserved (although I can't remember seeing who was MOM so maybe he did - either way it was the best I had seen him play all season after a slow start which was probably due to being injured with Scotland in the summer and messing his pre-season up).

GeordieFalcon wrote:43 man squad...how about?

1 Marler, Vunipola, (Mullan or Waller)
2 Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3 D.Wilson, Thomas, (Brookes or Sinkler)
4/5 Launchbury, Attwood, Lawes, Slater, Kitchener, (Stooke or Kruis or Barrow)
6/7 Wood, Robshaw, Clark, Fearns, Wallace, T.Johnson
8 Vunipola, Morgan

9 Care, Youngs, Robson
10 Farrell, Ford,(Then who knows Cipriani, Burns, Myler)
12 Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt
13 Tuilagi, Daly(Why is he playing 15), Eastmond
11/14 Ashton, Yarde, Wade, May, Nowell
15 Brown, Foden, Watson

Like that squad GF although I think Goode will be one of the 15's chosen. Foden's form has been poor yet again when returning from injury, he really is a player who needs a lot of game time before he regains anything like top form. Currently he is trying too much, forcing things and making mistakes without looking particulally threatening with ball in hand which is usully his greatest asset.

Also think if fit then Parling will leapfrog Kitchener, Stooke & Barrow and be the 5th lock if they take that many. He's obviously thought of as a leader by Tigers & England (and the Lions) and think SL will keep him around the squad until after the WC. Not as a first choice in the 23 but more of a squad player who can lead the team against the weaker nations in the WC group stages almost like a Lions mid-week captain. Plus he can step in at short notice and probably do a job and for whatever reason I fear Kitchener is thought of as 4th choice lock at Tigers (behind Slater, Deacon & Parling) by Dickie C.

That's a pretty good squad. I like to think Ward might get a look in at hooker - he's been playing out of his skin and also plays 7 regularly so adds a huge amount at the breakdown

I raise the issue of captaincy because it is shows we lose more than our current seven if Robshaw is down. It's an area we can't expect to develop much depth ahead of the world cup.

I have a lot of time for Hartley but I'm struck that we've been lucky with his form. It wasn't that long ago he was on the bench behind Youngs. Back then we would have needed to switch the pecking order to make him captain.

I also like Wood. I've come around to the idea that he can play seven. However, I don't think he has played seven for England, and he certainly hasn't played it while also assuming captaincy duties.

The England and Northampton environments aren't interchangeable. If Wood is our next seven option, then he should have some time there in Tests otherwise we shouldn't think about making him captain unless it's at six.

Robshaw's captaincy no longer seems to be in question but there's a cost to his "big engine", which is that he is often cream-crackered at the back end of a match. That's when game management and leadership is at a premium.

I mentioned before that we lost one game - I think it was France rather than NZ - when Hartley was off and Farrell was out of sorts. Farrell is usually shouting his head off to keep everyone focused (George Ford is apparently the same). That left a lot on Robshaw's plate at a time in the game when he was probably thinking a bit more slowly.

I don't have a good sense of how Wood might captain but I think he might be a bit similar to Robshaw in leading from the front.

I'd like a bit more confidence that out first XV has a proper leadership group to help us close out matches. We've shown the maturity to come from behind, and the Ireland game showed we can hold out under pressure, so there are good signs.

B9,

Interesting about Foden. Yes in that case probably take Goode, but i would like to see Watson travel for some experience and gametime.

With regards to Parling i mentinoned on another thread i think, i would be looking at alternatives to him for the following reason.
We have the established 3 locks - Launchbury, Lawes and Attwood. We need to now see who can challenge those and keep competition up not have someone with experience who can "do a job".

For that reason Slater is a must as he has been playing very well and has been captaining the Tigers. That gives us four very good locks. After that i would take another two...and rather than Parling id rather take 2 young lads with potential to gain valuable experience. Certainly a fit and on form Barrow, Stooke or Kruis would offer a good back up despite being so young and are only going to benefit massively from the whole experience.

All of them offer the athleticsim Lancaster requires....and also many can cover 6 to a high standard also...(Launchbury, Slater, Barrow) which gives you flexibility.

B91212 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon Sarries did play well though I did think before the game that the Sarries backrow looked much stronger on paper - playing Wood vs Billy at 8 was a real head scratcher too.

Wood played 7 this week with Manoa at 8 (he was at 8 against Tigers the previous week due to injuries to both Manoa & Dickinson). The Saints pack as a whole were second best, thought Kelly Brown was brilliant and didn't get the praise his performance deserved (although I can't remember seeing who was MOM so maybe he did - either way it was the best I had seen him play all season after a slow start which was probably due to being injured with Scotland in the summer and messing his pre-season up).

Oh right perhaps I just got the two games mixed up. Wood still not at 6 though. Northampton backrow certainly hasn't looked balanced with Wood out of position.

Think your best is probably Wood,Dowson,Dickinson in my opinion.

I think Wood has been at 7 most of the time hasnt he Beshocked.

Isnt it similar to Richard HIll who played 7 for Sarries but 6 for England?

I think SL will take a couple of players who can play lock and backrow, just please not Calum Clark he was anonymous in the Saxons games. As was Wallace actually, the backrow didn't really function until Dickinson came on at Kingsholm.

Launchbury and Slater straight away fit that criteria.

Geordiefalcon not sure about that. I think Wood has been used at 6 quite a bit but perhaps he alternates.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Wood has been at 7 most of the time hasnt he Beshocked.

Isnt it similar to Richard HIll who played 7 for Sarries but 6 for England?

Over the last few years Wood has always seemed to play at 7 for saints when all players were fit.

GeordieFalcon wrote:43 man squad...how about?

1 Marler, Vunipola, (Mullan or Waller)
2 Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3 D.Wilson, Thomas, (Brookes or Sinkler)
4/5 Launchbury, Attwood, Lawes, Slater, Kitchener, (Stooke or Kruis or Barrow)
6/7 Wood, Robshaw, Clark, Fearns, Wallace, T.Johnson
8 Vunipola, Morgan

9 Care, Youngs, Robson
10 Farrell, Ford,(Then who knows Cipriani, Burns, Myler)
12 Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt
13 Tuilagi, Daly(Why is he playing 15), Eastmond
11/14 Ashton, Yarde, Wade, May, Nowell
15 Brown, Foden, Watson

Because of the injuries and absences of Wasps other FB options.  With Masi and Tommy Bell back in the frame now he's been playing at centre again for the last number of games.

Regarding captaincy if Robshaw is absent, it's pretty clear it would be Wood (as he was for the Argentina tour). As most seem to agree, Hartley would almost certainly be the next in line, irrespective of the issue that he is likely to be subbed. After that, between experience, youth and demeanour I wouldn't be too confident about the rest of the pack captaining, though that depends on who might be brought in to cover injuries (Attwood or Johnson could be options). I'm not a fan of backs captaining, but I do think Brown's character would fit the bill in a pinch (FB is a often a long way from the action, but there have been some notable international captains there in the past).

niwatts wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:43 man squad...how about?

1 Marler, Vunipola, (Mullan or Waller)
2 Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3 D.Wilson, Thomas, (Brookes or Sinkler)
4/5 Launchbury, Attwood, Lawes, Slater, Kitchener, (Stooke or Kruis or Barrow)
6/7 Wood, Robshaw, Clark, Fearns, Wallace, T.Johnson
8 Vunipola, Morgan

9 Care, Youngs, Robson
10 Farrell, Ford,(Then who knows Cipriani, Burns, Myler)
12 Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt
13 Tuilagi, Daly(Why is he playing 15), Eastmond
11/14 Ashton, Yarde, Wade, May, Nowell
15 Brown, Foden, Watson

Because of the injuries and absences of Wasps other FB options.  With Masi and Tommy Bell back in the frame now he's been playing at centre again for the last number of games.

Thats brilliant news. I genuinely think him and young Tompkins at Sarries are potentially outstanding 13's.

Utterly unrelated to NZ but Harry Malinder is 6' 5" and 16st at 17! Jesus the next child of a successful English rugby coach comes off the production line.

I'm calling it already for 2023!

I don't know if there'll be four or five locks that tour. If it's four it has to be Lanuchbury, Attwood, Lawes and Slater for me.

I'd like to see what Slater can do on the international stage and I have a hunch he could really step up to that level. He's got better and better for Tigers and the captaincy seems to have aided not detracted from his game.

As far as the continual hints at the U20s crop goes i'm not sure who the contenders are in that group. It would be my assumption that they will tour but be unlikely to get a lot of game time. More likely bench options in the Crusaders game.

The U20 contenders: (some of these players are recent former U20s members)

Henry Slade - FH - Those fans of Cipriani could be in for another set back. Slade is a very composed young FH with all the attributes to be top class. He's played in some big games for Chiefs but has had some issues with place kicking and game management at times. He's in the Saxons and could travel as third choice FH.

Touring chance: Possible

Anthony Watson - FB/Wing - With the squad during 6N despite getting no game time. Played a bit with the Saxons and went reasonably well. Very highly rated, he may tour for the experience and be brought on further. Slipped behind a bit at Bath.

Touring chance: Probable

Kyle Sinkler - TH - Put in some superb performances for such a young lad in the toughest position on the pitch. His scrummaging has been the most impressive along with his ability to adapt. It might be a long shot but he's got a chance, even on just a few appearances for Quins. Keeping PDJ out. It'll be a battle for the third choice TH.

Touring chance: Possible

Scot Wilson - TH - Went well for the Saxons and has put in some good performances. Perhaps not had the game time he might've wanted at Falcons just yet. Still very young but a big unit. He's the main contender, considering Brookes isn't in the Saxons (with Collier and Cole out) for the third TH spot.

Touring chance: Likely

Elliot Stooke - Lock - Has had a lot of time for Gloucester this season and is very highly regarded both in the U20s set up and at Gloucester. He's a big old unit, even at the age of 20 and is maturing game by game. His work-rate is excellent and he likes his carrying at close quarters. Could probably do with another season to really hit his straps but is a serious prospect.

Touring chance: Possible (will depend on amount of locks taken)

Of the U20s I would say those are the most likely contenders. Obviously Jack Nowell is in the same bracket but is almost certain to tour if he's fit. I may have missed some out.

little_badger wrote:Utterly unrelated to NZ but Harry Malinder is 6' 5" and 16st at 17! Jesus the next child of a successful English rugby coach comes off the production line.

I'm calling it already for 2023!

The fixation with size will only take you so far. Can he catch a ball and pass? Can he offload? Does he add value around the park? Is he athletic? The difference between the NZ and England production line is stark....

Ah skills who needs them eh?   

I hope England are starting to address the skills from age-grade because yes in the past the baby blacks were streets ahead, though I think that gap is narrowing. From what I've heard of the age grade coaches they want them to play.

The midweek game against the Crusaders will determine the size of the squad. Lancaster will need a bare minimum of 38 players (15 midweek starters, 15 test starters and 8 on the bench if you assume they can play both games). In reality, given the first test situation and the need to cover for injuries, I'd expect there to be one extra player in each position. I reckon the tour party will eventually be about 46 - maybe a couple fewer if there are cover players who can double up on position (e.g. Goode might be viewed as cover for FB and FH; Slater might travel as lock/6 cover):

4 Looseheads
4 Hookers
4 Tightheads
6 Locks
8 Backrows
4 SH
4 FH
5 Centres
7 Back 3

Working on the premise of a squad that large Poorfour. I'd assume that the following are just about guaranteed to find themselves in the touring party at some point if fit.

1.Marler, Mako
2.Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3.Wilson, Thomas
4.Launchbury, Slater
5.Lawes, Attwood
6.Wood, Johnson
7.Robshaw, Kvesic
8.Vunipola, Morgan

9.Care, Youngs, Dickson
10.Farrell, Ford

11.Yarde, May
12.Twelvetrees, Barritt
13.Tuilagi, Burrell
14.Nowell, Ashton
15.Brown, Foden, Goode

That's 17 forwards and 16 backs. Looking at those players we will almost definitely need an additional player to tour in the following positions with the likely players to be considered listed:

Loose-head - Mullan, Waller, Corbs (many don't like it but may well be considered if fit)

Tight-head - Sinckler, Brookes, Scott Wilson, Doran-Jones - Likely that 2 of them will travel.

Lock - Parling, Kitchener, Kruis (injured?), Stooke

Flanker - Haskell, Fraser (if fit), Wallace, Fearns, Garvey, Clark, Croft (though noise from WR is that he won't return this season)

Number 8 - Ewers, Dickinson - Could we see a sixth flanker travel rather than a third No 8?

Fly-half - Burns, Cipriani, Myler, Slade

Centre - Eastmond, Daly, Trinder, Allen

A Back three player or utility back? - Wade (if fit), Watson. Could anyone see Tait or Daly being taken as utility backs?

I haven't really thought about the AB's. I haven't seen many games, so I'm sure others will have an opinion on this. But here's some thoughts on the possible starting squad for the first test.

15 Ben Smith
14 Charles Piatau
13 Conrad Smith
12 Ma'a Nonu
11 Julian Savea
10 Aaron Cruden
9 Aaron Smith
1 Tony Woodcock
2 Keven Mealamu
3 Owen Franks
4 Brodie Retallick
5 Sam Whitelock
6 Liam Messam
7 Richie McCaw (c)
8 Kieran Read
  Replacements
16 Dane Coles
17 Wyatt Crockett
18 Charlie Faumuina
19 Steven Luatua
20 Sam Cane
21 Tawera Kerr-Barlow
22 Ryan Crotty
23 Beauden Barrett

Obviously this a big change from the run on team for the Irish test in November. Bear in mind that was probably at about 1/2 strength. NZ face a number of challenges with the squad and I'm picking a conservative approach to the start of the season. Here's my thoughts.

Front row. I've gone for the two first choice props from last year and the most experienced Hooker, with the other mainstays of last years squad in reserve. The question marks for me are: Are Woodcock and Mealamu getting to long in the tooth for test rugby, Does Dane Coles have the physicality required for test rugby (I'm a Coles fan), are any of the up and comers good enough this early in the season.

Locks: Pick themselves really. They area a world class unit. The issue we have at the moment is we are only an injury or two away from a locking crisis. Luatua's on the bench to cover lock/blindside

Loose forwards: I've gone for Richie, Messam and Read. It's a good unit. Cane and Luatua are a useful backup. The key issue is whether McCaw comes back from injury and form. Matt Todd is probably the backup.

Halfback/1st five. I've gone for Cruden and Smith. Snith's the best distributor we have, even if he can be a liability on defence. Carter's on sabbatical so he's not an option. My back ups are Barrett and Kerr Barlow. If Cruden get's injured it gets interesting. I'm guessing Barrett goes to 1st give and some one else comes in. That might be Slade or Sopoaga. The later has been playing more, the former is now playing and has been in the team before.

Centres: You have to go for Nonu and Conrad. the big question this year is going to be Conrad and whether he's starting to slow. As back up I've got Piatau, who can fill in at centre and Crotty. There's a lot of young guys starting to come through at 13 which is interesting. 12 is looking a bit bear (I wonder if that's because everyone knows SBW's coming back). Might have picked Aki if I didn't know he was off to Ireland. There's always the issue of straight hard running option and the distributor mix.

Back three: Probably the most interesting position to pick this year. Savea picks himself. He's arguably the top winger on the planet at the moment. I think Smith might be the form fullback and might edge Dagg. For me the balance in the decision is going to be the kicking game. I'm picking a second full back on the right wing. I don't think Jane form is good enough so he can be discounted. That leaves Dagg and Piatau. I don't think there is much between them so I'm picking the later as he can also cover centre.

There are a number of exciting outside backs coming through and some useful forwards. I think they'll get time with the squad in November (Tumefuna and a couple of others might get some action later in the tour or in the RC), rather than before (baring injuries).

Any Bath fans know the state of Rob Webbers ankle? 10 weeks since he injured it.

Cruden, McCaw, Mealamu are unlikely to play England.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Cruden, McCaw, Mealamu are unlikely to play England.

You could be right.

Cruden: You are probably right I thought he'd be out for 6 weeks. Which would give him two weeks of game time before the tests. Probably enough for him. Can't see him playing if he doesn't and I now hear it's an eight week layoff. 1st 5 is looking a bit shaky. I'm guessing Barrett with Slade or Sapoaga into the reserves (or Tom Taylor as a outside chance).

McCaw broken thumb shouldn't only keep him out for much longer. Given the stand down is likely to be 8 weeks in total. he should play through May which will see him play 4-5 games. He's probably got the inside running if that's the case. Unless of course it takes longer (I may have missed an unfavorable update on his injury). On a brighter note I think Cane returns to duty this weekend).

Mealamu starts this weekend for the Blues. My feeling was they'd probably go with his experience and bring on Coles at about the 50 minute mark. The other alternative is probably someone like Rhys Marshall. Any other thoughts

GloriousEmpire wrote:Cruden, McCaw, Mealamu are unlikely to play England.

How so? Rested, injured or out of form?

I have to admit, I hadn't realised that the ABs had so many questions over the squad. While there's no such thing as a weak All Blacks side (the Maori would almost certainly be a top 5 team if they competed independently), and I would expect the XV that takes the field each week to have a significant advantage in caps over England, it sounds like there are some areas that could be tested.

If you're right, GE (and you are so rarely ever wrong) Smith and Barrett vs Care and Farrell is an interesting mix of different styles. I assume Cane would come in for McCaw, which might actually benefit the ABs; I think England's pack have been more effective than most in containing Richie and new blood would present new challenges. If canelion is right and Cole does come in at hooker, that again could be an interesting test given Harley's (international) form and reports from Tigers that Youngs has learned to hook against the head.

The big advantages for the ABs are likely to be being at home, having a more established system, the back three (big test for Brown, and England do not have established wings anywhere near the class of Savea, Piutau or Dagg) and possibly the locks (Lawesbury are talented but still comparatively green at this level), but elsewhere it is much closer. Even in the centres we have a world class pairing that is edging towards being past its best facing a relatively unproven combination (and we don't even know which one it will be) that is just starting to realise its potential.

Ok Poorfour

1) 4 Looseheads
Marler, Vunipola, Mullan, Waller

2) 4 Hookers
Hartley, Youngs, Ward, Webber if fit.

3) 4 Tightheads
D.Wilson, H.Thomas, K.Brookes, K.Sinkler. (S.Wilson will also be over there in the JWC)

4) 6 Locks
Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood, Slater, Stooke, Barrow, (Itoje will be over in JWC)

5) 9 Backrows instead of 8
Wood, Robshaw, B.Vunipola, B.Morgan, C.Clark, Kvesic, Johnson, Evers (6&8), Dickinson

6) 4 SH
Care, Youngs, Robson?, ?

7) 4 FH
Farrell, Burns, Ford, Slade or Cipriani

8) 5 Centres
Twelvetrees, Burrell, Tuilagi, Eastmond, Daly,

9) 7 Back 3
Brown, Yarde, Ashton, Goode, Nowell, May, Watson

I think the fact that Lancaster has made noise about the U20's being looked at and being in the JWC at the same time might be important. Ive mentioned Wilson and Itoje, but there are some big skilled forwards in the current U20 squad and players like the outstanding Sarries centre Tompkins...

Think he may be tempted to take Jaime George just to start and immerse him a little bit.

Well i wouldnt have any problem with that 7 1/2. Big powerful lad...mobile aswell.

Quins have quite a stable of hookers. Gray, Ward, Buchanan...i think bar Ward they've been injured most of the season. Are they coming back. Buchanan looked a real prospect.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well i wouldnt have any problem with that 7 1/2. Big powerful lad...mobile aswell.

Quins have quite a stable of hookers. Gray, Ward, Buchanan...i think bar Ward they've been injured most of the season. Are they coming back. Buchanan looked a real prospect.

Buchanan has been on the bench for a couple of weeks but has had limited game time - in part because Ward is playing so well. His breakdown work has been exceptional (he's a converted 7). Gray is out with a knee injury, probably until next season now, but I hope Buchanan will get some game time as we wind down towards the end.

No 7 & 1/2 problem for Jamie George is that he's been kept out of the Sarries starting line up by an in form Brits.

Geordiefalcon not sure NZ away is the best time to blood youngsters.

A good time to blood the current youngsters would be next year in the 6 nations vs the Scots and Italy at home in my opinion.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think he may be tempted to take Jaime George just to start and immerse him a little bit.

Yep that would be a good call too. It's only a matter of time before he becomes the starting hooker for Sarries and he's had a lot of training along the way. Hartley/Youngs/Webber are good options. Particularly Webber remains a bit un-tapped at this level. Adding George to the mix could shake things up.

little_badger wrote:Aims for the tour IMO:

Establish Ford as the back up 10, Burns is so off colour he's positively opaque.
Establish when first who are the first choice centres. Picking from 36, Manu, Burrell, Eastmond most likely.
Establish who are the first choice wingers at the moment. Expecting Wade not to tour, most others seem to be fit.

The pack is pretty much settled. Qs over Corbs fitness, whether Parling is good enough remain and back up flankers.

All in All, could be worse. (Heavy caveat for likely end of season injuries to ruin it all).

That's easy, Ashton can cover both wings. At the same time.

 

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2 problem for Jamie George is that he's been kept out of the Sarries starting line up by an in form Brits.

Geordiefalcon not sure NZ away is the best time to blood youngsters.

A good time to blood the current youngsters would be next year in the 6 nations vs the Scots and Italy at home in my opinion.

Taking him and getting him involved won't hurt at all in my opinion. I've been very impressed with what I've seen so far. If he goes he's not going to be starting hooker just in and around the squad. He's no Jack Nowell afterall

I like the idea of blooding players vs Scotland and Italy, but we will need the gametime for our first choice squad ahead of facing the Welsh/Irish on the road. No idea what the schedule is, so those could be our first games for all I know

Beshocked ive said all along NZ away is NOT the place to try a host of kids, in fact i dont really think any game is the right place to throw on a load of kids....but now that we have an increasingly settled and progressing side, the odd one coming in at the right time wont hurt.

Besides its Lancaster who has made the noises about the U20's players not me   

How old is Jamie George now?

Ward has indeed had a lot of recognition this season for his play. He could well be rewarded with a trip.

I cannot see Bomber taking Ward. when we are talking about extended squad members (and depending on Webbers fitness then any other hooker taken is 3rd or 4th choice) Lancaster likes to take younger players to see if they have the right attitude.

I can see Jamie George (24 this Autumn) going (and he has started 12 matchews for Sarries this season, only 2 in the LV) or Luke Cowan Dickie. Much like taking Tom youngs as 4th choice to SA in 2012. Little risk and potentially a lot to gain.

Troy Thacker was the U20s hooker this year. Cannot see him being involved.

Did anyone notice that Manu played 12 at the weekend. Any thoughts on that Tiger, injury cover or perhaps a change of position with Smith at 13. Makes one hell of a big centre combo.

Makes me think of a Burrell Manu or vice versa combo for England.

They would need to learn to kick though.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Did anyone notice that Manu played 12 at the weekend. Any thoughts on that Tiger, injury cover or perhaps a change of position with Smith at 13. Makes one hell of a big centre combo.

Makes me think of a Burrell Manu or vice versa combo for England.

They would need to learn to kick though.

I think we could see a 12. L Burrell 13. M Tuilagi combination for England but it wouldn't be a top choice for me. There's just not enough skills in terms of kicking and outside break in that pairing. If Manu is moved to 12 then i'd rather see a Trinder or Daly at OC. Good pace, pass and excellent kicking game.

Burrell's a natural 12 and Manu's a natural 13. Why would you play them the other way round?

LT - I beg to differ. With the Crusaders game, at least 3 hookers will see game time in that week, so we are only one injury away from needing a 4th. If Webber is fit I'd expect him to start midweek with, say, Youngs on the bench, but whoever is 4th choice needs to be able to step in at that level. I agree that Lancaster might take younger players for the experience, but at this stage, I would expect anyone who gets game time to be someone who could realistically be part of the 2015 squad.

That may not be Ward, but it's unlikely to be a player who's not starting regularly for his club.

Interesting no one mentining Twelvetrees. Is he just a makeweight at 12?

Daly and Tompkins will definately have a say in the future England 13 spot i think.

In terms of enhancing our RWC prospects, which individual players do you think would benefit from NOT touring and having a decent rest and pre-season to ensure peak fitness for a long season coming up? The RWC starts 18/9/15 which means getting a rest this summer will be the last chance.

For me the RWC is the priority so I would rest:

Dan Cole as he appears worn out and playing below his best. Better to give Dave Wilson the experience against the ABs.

Corbs......totally depends on his fitness and future prognosis on his knees as obviously he has not played much and therefore if fit could easily play on this tour, but if any doubt I would rather he enjoy a summer of rest and training.

Possibly Ben and Tom Youngs as the other Lions who may benefit from missing this tour.

Otherwise I think everyone else should be good to go.

Cole and Corbs are the only players I would consider resting.

hugehandoff wrote:In terms of enhancing our RWC prospects, which individual players do you think would benefit from NOT touring and having a decent rest and pre-season to ensure peak fitness for a long season coming up? The RWC starts 18/9/15 which means getting a rest this summer will be the last chance.

For me the RWC is the priority so I would rest:

Dan Cole as he appears worn out and playing below his best. Better to give Dave Wilson the experience against the ABs.

Corbs......totally depends on his fitness and future prognosis on his knees as obviously he has not played much and therefore if fit could easily play on this tour, but if any doubt I would rather he enjoy a summer of rest and training.

Possibly Ben and Tom Youngs as the other Lions who may benefit from missing this tour.

Otherwise I think everyone else should be good to go.  

I would be happy to see Tom Youngs left behind not to rest him but because he has been poor for England and we need to try some alternatives.

hugehandoff I would leave out Cole,Corbisiero and Burns.

Burns needs a proper pre season at Leicester to get himself back in shape.

On current form he shouldn't be in the England saxons let alone the England squad.

Wade shouldn't be rushed to NZ either.

Austin Healey thinks Ben Youngs needs a break (see the last part of this piece):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10773672/Austin-Healey-Who-is-the-better-England-scrum-half-Danny-Care-or-Ben-Youngs.html

He doesn't specifically say Youngs should miss NZ but it's the only time he could focus on fitness training before the World Cup.