Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

Perhaps last year BamBam? it was a while ago now.

is there a possibility that some of us are reading it wrong...and simply Lancaster didnt think he was good enough , or fitted in to how he wanted to play the game.

Maybe now Lancaster will have a rethink.

Whatever the reason, with his form and the fact that 35+ players are going to NZ this is his chance.

I agree...he must go on the tour.

It isn't Garvey's omission from the EPS but the Saxons which is the odd one for me this season. It is after all his first season where he's moved to 6 as his permanent position and cut down in weight a fair bit in order to do so. As such not making the EPS isn't too shocking but Lancs not finding him a place in the Saxons given his form and potential does ring alarm bells.

Moving rapidly from one selection conspiracy to another. If he were to be in the Saxons it would probably have to be at the expense of Callum Clark which is another touchy issue for many with Bomber. Though on form he is undoubtedly deserving of that place.

Would be igood to get some more information on the issue to just answer the rumours of an altercation if nothing else though!

With Nowell out and Wade looking increasingly unlikely to tour it probably opens things up for Watson to make the squad as a wing with Foden also covering.

Wings - Yarde, May, Ashton, Watson

Full backs - Brown, Foden, Goode

Not a fan of increasingly seeing as many if not more full backs in the squad than wings! That said Watson especially and Foden as well both have the raw pace to offer a real threat there if needed.

Might also open things up for someone like Rokodugini to get a shot in the Baa Baas game. Or Sharples could possibly get another look in for that game as well.

Strettles banging the tries in?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Strettles banging the tries in?

He is but he has been uninspiring in the international chances he has had of late. That wonderful break (followed by the horrible break in his foot) vs Wales seems to be a very very long time ago now.

The Ashton situation is different The new guys seemed to offer so much more all round than him but if (as it seems) he has addressed that situation, and if they can tweak the plan to make the most of his strengths he is in an increasingly strong position.

Where possible I'd like SL to use forward thinking and not resort to someone like Strettle, he didn't take his international chances and there are younger guys who could be a lot better than he is. A blend of youth and experience, though admittedly experiences is a bit thin on the ground in the back line. I don't think we need to resort to calling up players approaching 30 from the international wilderness. 4 wingers, with Foden to cover should be ok.

Looks like Webber may well be out again. Screamed out in pain during the Northampton game. Limping off now. Not sure how bad it is but he didn't need a stretcher.

HammerofThunor wrote:Looks like Webber may well be out again. Screamed out in pain during the Northampton game. Limping off now. Not sure how bad it is but he didn't need a stretcher.

Looked nasty.

NH are looking a bit clueless at the moment.

Fearns put in a big shift though and he covers the whole backrow. He could be very useful

Myler had some good touches. If anything, Ford is the one ending the season raggedly but it the press is talking as if it's a shootout between Cipriani and the Saints man for a tour spot.

Ford was ok last night, the gameplan at Bath is never going to make him play like Cruden. BUT I think for England he'll go well, the structure in the England team is a bit more fluid now, Care allows for more expansive rugby and Ford should find there are more guys around him drawing the defense.

Myler to me is just an average Prem 10, he's good for Saints but nothing special really.

Cipriani has a briliiant chance today against Tigers. If he can show a solid all round game and guide Sale to a win then I think he'll be taken on tour.

At the moment I'd take Farrel, Ford and then Cipriani.

Go Cipriani

Doing pretty well at the moment

If Youngs has taken a knock against Sale then we might be looking short of hookers for the summer.

Again

Youngs looked OK after a minute to recover. Took a big hit with his ribs completely exposed so will likely have been winded.

Webber going off for Bath is a real frustration given how well he went in the summer and for Bath when fit.

Good to read that Yarde got a hat trick today - though I haven't seen the game so can't comment on the actual tries.

A couple more for Ashton as well.

A good time for Yarde to be showing form though that's for sure with Nowell and Wade still out.

If the table stays as it is with Saracens vs Bath and Saints vs Tigers semi-finals then the backline is looking pretty much nailed on to look like below. With one out of Farrell/Ford and Tuilagi/Burrell guaranteed not to be involved in the prem final.

9.Care
10.Ford or Farrell
11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi or Burrell
14.May
15.Brown

As we've known for a while things may hinge on how Ford takes to being thrown in the deep end but circumstances and injuries considered I'd say it's a backline I wouldn't complain about seeing.

Get use to this phrase - ENGLAND'S INJURY RAVAGED TOUR OF NEW ZEALAND - as I fear we'll be hearing it quite often from here on in.

Very boring I know and not what anyone wants to think about or deal with in any sort of real way; however the inconvenient truth of too much rugby is again killing our chances of international success, let alone the bigger prize of exponential game development.

Webber, Hartley, Cole, Corbisiero, Wade, Twelvetrees, Nowell......

Mako and Fraser injured too. Unsure on how long they are out for though.

King Carlos you have managed to successfully clone May?

And if you have learnt how to clone fully grown rugby players, why May?!

Apologies meant to be Yarde on the left - has now been corrected!

Sadly my career in genetic engineering ended when I tried to splice Chris Ashton with Phil Vickery's build and created Dylan Hartley. At first it was considered a key step towards the ultimate goal of pro rugby players having an average weight of 20 stone. Unfortunately as adolescence approached the 'incidents' with the other children then started and we had no choice but to do the only thing we thought would tame him - force him to play in the same front row as Tom Smith.

kingelderfield wrote:Get use to this phrase - ENGLAND'S INJURY RAVAGED TOUR OF NEW ZEALAND - as I fear we'll be hearing it quite often from here on in.

Very boring I know and not what anyone wants to think about or deal with in any sort of real way; however the inconvenient truth of too much rugby is again killing our chances of international success, let alone the bigger prize of exponential game development.

Webber, Hartley, Cole, Corbisiero, Wade, Twelvetrees, Nowell......

And "performance over result", yes?

I expect England to get beaten 3-0 this summer, but it won't be too damaging to the overall goal of 2015 as long as England turn in some credible performances and don't get thrashed.

After all, the 2015 World Cup is a home one, and England are good enough to beat any nation in the world at Twickenham.

This is all about the experience, which should be a superb one, and a learning curve.

The hooking crisis is certainly disturbing. Hartley and Webber out with Youngs waiting to be judged as to any damage.

That's all three top choice hookers potentially unavailable. If we're looking at taking three hookers, what's the likely choice and pecking order?

It's possible we may start T1 with David Paice at hooker. Yes, I did write that.

Other tourers would likely be: Jamie George, Dave Ward and R Buchanan/T Lindsay?

Youngs is reportedly just winded by a big hit with his ribs exposed. One of those injuries that hurts like hell at the time and often seems worse than it is. Given Tigers were already 21-3 up at the time I think he may have been removed as a precaution as much as anything.

Webbers injury sounds really nasty though and incredibly frustrating given his luck with injuries. Hasn't been confirmed for certain yet as far as I know but seems pretty definitive he won't be fit.

Will Hartley not have a chance to prove fitness in the play-offs? He could of course miss the first test due to the final though...

I'd have Ward and George well ahead of Paice. Similar to Strettle I felt he had a final chance on the Argentina tour and far from shone.

king_carlos wrote:Youngs is reportedly just winded by a big hit with his ribs exposed. One of those injuries that hurts like hell at the time and often seems worse than it is. Given Tigers were already 21-3 up at the time I think he may have been removed as a precaution as much as anything.

Webbers injury sounds really nasty though and incredibly frustrating given his luck with injuries. Hasn't been confirmed for certain yet as far as I know but seems pretty definitive he won't be fit.

Will Hartley not have a chance to prove fitness in the play-offs? He could of course miss the first test due to the final though...

I'd have Ward and George well ahead of Paice. Similar to Strettle I felt he had a final chance on the Argentina tour and far from shone.

I agree on Paice but I don't see Lancs picking anyone else if the others aren't fit.

He picked Youngs off the back of only a few pro games at hooker for the SA tour.

Ward and George the Saxons hookers during the 6N games I think. Not sure if Paice was injured at the time though.

Paice is out for the season anyway with complications caused by his broken arm earlier in the year.

Will Dave Ward get a chance if Hartley/ Youngs do not make the summer tour?

majesticimperialman wrote:Will Dave Ward get a chance if Hartley/ Youngs do not make the summer tour?

He's in the Saxons and started the game against Scotland A with George on the bench so if we need someone to step up in the absence of Webber (and possibly Hartley) it will most likely be one/both of them.

At the moment it is sounding like Corbisiero will likely feature in the play-offs. Whether people like it or not I expect Corbs will be taken on tour if he returns by the end of the season.

I think Dave Ward is exactly the type of player that Lancaster likes.

Athletic, mobile and great at the breakdown. He'll def tour if Hartley, and Webber are out.

Its a shame Buchanan hasnt had a big season. He looked a real quality one coming through last season.

He's been injured

Yeah, just aswell Quins have 3 quality hookers.

What will be interesting is how Youngs and Lawes/Launchbury / Attwood/ Slater go in the lineout.

Hopefully if Youngs is starting he will have his lineout settled and secure.

As others have said I'm guessing if Hartley and Webber are out,  Youngs will play lead with George and/or Ward backing up.

However, Lancaster pulled Nowell out of relative obscurity for the Six Nations,  my crazy prediction for the hooker position.... Luke Cowan-Dickie!

What's the craic with Rob Buchanan at Quins? He was in the Saxons and building towards the senior squad last year.  Is he injured too? question answered.

Joe Gray always seems accurate with his throwing,  injured/ not good enough?

Mike Haywood has impressed me for Saints too, but is he too small for international rugby?

Tommy Taylor at Sale?  He's quietly doing good things for an unfashionable club.

Is Cowan Dickie starting? Jamie George is another who needs to be starting every game but is behnid Brits.

I think Youngs and Ward will go. The third spot is pretty much up for grabs.

I don't think Cowan-Dickie is starting yet, but he's somebody that has been identified from a long way out. I was being tongue in cheek though, it's a year too soon for him.

Who knows Cumbrian...Lancaster has put some curve balls in there now and again...and isnt afriad to put the kids in.

A summer tour working with Rowntree could be excellent for him, whilst giving Youngs and Ward the brunt of the work.

True, it would be nice to think that there is a long term plan for a successor to Hartley in place.  I mean Hartley is 28, so he's got maybe 3-4 more years as an England first choice pick? Cowan-Dickie is currently 20, wouldn't it be brilliant to think that a player like him could be eased into the position over the next few years so that when he is first choice at 24 he could be established and have 20-30 caps?  

It would certainly be better than looking around in four years time and realising we don't have a first choice player, the 'experienced' players like Youngs and Webber are in their 30s and there is a gap to the inexperienced youngsters who have no international experience. (Where have I heard all of this before?  )

Yeah it would be great to have players coming through etc.

I think Lancs is doing quite well in developing depth and giving youngsters a chance.

Cumbrian wrote:True, it would be nice to think that there is a long term plan for a successor to Hartley in place.  I mean Hartley is 28, so he's got maybe 3-4 more years as an England first choice pick? Cowan-Dickie is currently 20, wouldn't it be brilliant to think that a player like him could be eased into the position over the next few years so that when he is first choice at 24 he could be established and have 20-30 caps?  

It would certainly be better than looking around in four years time and realising we don't have a first choice player, the 'experienced' players like Youngs and Webber are in their 30s and there is a gap to the inexperienced youngsters who have no international experience. (Where have I heard all of this before?  )

I'm Kiwi so don't know anything about the up and coming English hookers but on the other 28 is not that old anymore. He could conceivably still be first choice hooker for the next world cup at 32/33.

Nganboy,

28 is not old at all, i think Cumbrian is more discussing conitnuation when these guys do slow down.

At the moment we are absolutely fine...our hookers are all around 26-27-28.
Hartley is 28, Youngs 27?, Webber 28??, Ward is 27 i think, We're just asking where the next batch are coming through.

I think players like Buchanan will feature aswell. A reall powerhouse and i think he's only 20/21.

Yeah, for the next three/ four years we should be fine, we've got about 3-4 players who are about the same age/ playing ability (obviously they all have different flaws and strengths within their game).

What worries me is we'll be in a position that we were in with the Props. We relied on Sheridan/ Vickery etc for too long (in that case due to lack of alternatives) and were left with experienced mediocrity in players like Payne and young inexperienced players like Cole, Marler and Corbisiero. Luckily it has kind of worked out with the props (although Cole and Corbisiero are now broken), but I think it can be avoided in the hooking position with a bit of forward planning.

Dean Ryan confirmed as coach for the Baa Baas game and they're putting a hell of a squad together for it as well.

People who want too see Steffon Armitage in an England match are going to get their wish but not on the side they've been calling for! Only 14 players announced with just 5 forwards but they aren't doing to bad with recruitment by the look of things:

1.Afoa
2.
3.Hayman
4.Williams
5.
6.Bonnaire
7.Armitage
8.

9.Cowan
10.Trinh-Duc

11.Sivivatu
12.Giteau
13.Ranger or Rougerie
14.Hosea Gear or Drew Mitchell
15.O'Connor

Buchanan and Haywood are the 'obvious' young guys coming through in their early 20s. Then you have Cowen-Dickie. George will eventually take starting spot (even if it's when Brits leaves) and he's gain a good amount of experience off Brits and Smit.

EDIT: didn't actually read that far up and missed all the discussion.

It'll be interesting to see what side we put out against the Baa Baa's....

HC and Amlin final - 23-24 May
England NZ tour party fly out 27th May
Prem Final - 31st May
England v Baa Baas - 1st June
New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June

What about the likes of Worcester full back Pennell getting a game v the Baa Baas?

Will some of the NZ touring party be given a later flight to run out v the Baa Baas?? or will it be a completely non touring England second string.

1 Waller
2 Gray / Buchanan if fit
3 Will Collier
4 Elliotte Stooke
5 Dom Barrow
6 Mark Wilson
7 Dave Seymour
8 Dickinson

9 Robson / Spencer / Wigglesworth
10 Myler
11 Banahan / Strettle
12 Joel Tomkins
13 Joseph
14 Benjamin
15 Pennell

Cumbrian wrote:As others have said I'm guessing if Hartley and Webber are out,  Youngs will play lead with George and/or Ward backing up.

However, Lancaster pulled Nowell out of relative obscurity for the Six Nations,  my crazy prediction for the hooker position.... Luke Cowan-Dickie!

What's the craic with Rob Buchanan at Quins? He was in the Saxons and building towards the senior squad last year.  Is he injured too? question answered.

Joe Gray always seems accurate with his throwing,  injured/ not good enough?

Mike Haywood has impressed me for Saints too, but is he too small for international rugby?

Tommy Taylor at Sale?  He's quietly doing good things for an unfashionable club.

Joe and Rob are Quins players and thus have been injured for most of the season. Ward, brilliant as he's been, only went up from 3rd choice because they got injured at the start of the season.