Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:My favourite is the 2007 tour of South Africa. Bath, Wasps and Leicester players couldn't make the tour at all. Perry Freshwater was tied up in France, while these players were all out injured: Mike Catt, Mark Cueto, James Forrester, Charlie Hodgson, Olly Morgan, Andrew Sheridan, Mike Tindall and Dan Ward-Smith

Here was our touring party:

http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/may/news-articles/englandsquadforsummer2007tourtosouthafrica

On top of that, the squad caught a bug. Not the kind which lets you play at full strength and then blame when you lose, it was the kind which sent players home without ever taking the pitch (Strettle).

Mike Brown played two tests, despite spending the intervening week in hospital.

Which set back his career a couple of years! Man's too hard for his own good

Poorfour wrote:Mike Brown played two tests, despite spending the intervening week in hospital.

With so many backs out of action, we ended up with that well-known strike runner Jamie Noon out on the wing.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But i have a sneaky feeling it might be Sarries v Tigers
Which would mean:

1 Joe Marler
2 Dylan Hartley
3 David Wilson
4 Courtney Lawes
5 Joe Launchbury
6 Tom Wood
7 Chris Robshaw
8 Ben Morgan

9 Danny Care
10 Ford / Cipriani / Burns

11 Johnny May
12 Leroy Burrell
13 Elliott Daly?
14 Marland Yarde
15 Mike Brown

It's still a strong team, some of the key units (second row, props, back row and most of the back three) are more or less intact. It would certainly give the All Blacks a game, if not push them all the way.

Cumbrian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But i have a sneaky feeling it might be Sarries v Tigers
Which would mean:

1 Joe Marler
2 Dylan Hartley
3 David Wilson
4 Courtney Lawes
5 Joe Launchbury
6 Tom Wood
7 Chris Robshaw
8 Ben Morgan

9 Danny Care
10 Ford / Cipriani / Burns

11 Johnny May
12 Leroy Burrell
13 Elliott Daly?
14 Marland Yarde
15 Mike Brown

It's still a strong team, some of the key units (second row, props, back row and most of the back three) are more or less intact. It would certainly give the All Blacks a game, if not push them all the way.

Of that team, only Care and Brown have played the All Blacks in New Zealand before.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But i have a sneaky feeling it might be Sarries v Tigers
Which would mean:

1 Joe Marler
2 Dylan Hartley
3 David Wilson
4 Courtney Lawes
5 Joe Launchbury
6 Tom Wood
7 Chris Robshaw
8 Ben Morgan

9 Danny Care
10 Ford / Cipriani / Burns

11 Johnny May
12 Leroy Burrell
13 Elliott Daly?
14 Marland Yarde
15 Mike Brown

It's still a strong team, some of the key units (second row, props, back row and most of the back three) are more or less intact. It would certainly give the All Blacks a game, if not push them all the way.

Of that team, only Care and Brown have played the All Blacks in New Zealand before.

To be fair, the opportunities to tour down there come around rarely so you're always going to have a number of players who haven't experienced it.

Cumbrian wrote:To be fair, the opportunities to tour down there come around rarely so you're always going to have a number of players who haven't experienced it.  

You've got more chance of getting away with it with a settled team. All those players have something to offer, and there are some established combinations, but the side as a whole hasn't even trained together, let alone played. It would be quite something to see a team like that put in a barnstorming performance. To date, though, it hasn't happened that way for us, so we might want to be careful about being too optimistic.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So for the first test we are potentially with out:

Definates:
Twelvetrees, Corbs, Webber, Wade, Croft, Nowell, T.Youngs

Then add on:
Sarries v Saints FInal:
Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Wigglesworth, Kruis, Goode, Billy V, Mako V
Lawes, Wood, Burrell, Foden, Dickson, Hartley, A.Waller,

or
Sarries v Leicester
Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Wigglesworth, Kruis, Goode, Billy V, Mako V
Manu, Slater, Kitchener, Allen?, Tait?,

or
Leicester v Saints
Lawes, Wood, Burrell, Foden, Dickson, Hartley, A.Waller,
Manu, Slater, Kitchener, Allen?, Tait?,

Other final options are (just about) available:
Sarries are top regardless
Saints can finish 2nd or 3rd (If they lose and Leicester beat Sarries)
Tigers can finish 2nd (beat Sarries and Saints lose), 3rd (if Bath lose, or Saints win and Leicester beat Sarries), or 4th (lose and Bath win)
Bath can finish 3rd (tigers lose, Bath win), 4th (Bath win, Tigers win or get 2 bp) or 5th (Quins win without Bath getting 1 more bp than Quins)
Quins can finish 4th or 5th

There are 6 possible final options: Sarries-Saints, Sarries-Tigers, Sarries-Bath, Saints-Tigers, Saints-Quins, Saints-Bath, Tigers-Bath, Tigers-Quins. Those involving Quins are probably least likely, but Saints-Quins would not be good for England!

Rugby Fan wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:To be fair, the opportunities to tour down there come around rarely so you're always going to have a number of players who haven't experienced it.  

You've got more chance of getting away with it with a settled team. All those players have something to offer, and there are some established combinations, but the side as a whole hasn't even trained together, let alone played. It would be quite something to see a team like that put in a barnstorming performance. To date, though, it hasn't happened that way for us, so we might want to be careful about being too optimistic.

Yeah. No arguments there, but I'm trying to make myself optimistic that we won't get a spanking.   

Rugby Fan wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But i have a sneaky feeling it might be Sarries v Tigers
Which would mean:

1 Joe Marler
2 Dylan Hartley
3 David Wilson
4 Courtney Lawes
5 Joe Launchbury
6 Tom Wood
7 Chris Robshaw
8 Ben Morgan

9 Danny Care
10 Ford / Cipriani / Burns

11 Johnny May
12 Leroy Burrell
13 Elliott Daly?
14 Marland Yarde
15 Mike Brown

It's still a strong team, some of the key units (second row, props, back row and most of the back three) are more or less intact. It would certainly give the All Blacks a game, if not push them all the way.

Of that team, only Care and Brown have played the All Blacks in New Zealand before.

Playing NZ in New Zealand before just means they have psychological baggage and experience losing

There is going to be next to no time for the team to get together and train in anticipation for the games either. They should probably just rename the squad the Saxon Barbarians right now.

and all this in the putrid shadow of fatigue.....I'm a romantic at heart and I want to dare to dream.

Most of all I'm gutted for Garvey and Webber as I think its as plain as day that this is 'there time to shine', especially as I believe we must bully the All Blacks in the physical elements to atleast try to gain parity.

Our bench will be absolutely crucial as players will be hanging and replacements must always add potentcy.

So who will be our 1st Test replacements (i'm assuming a Saracens Tigers final)?

Waller (really not sure who this should be so open to alternatives? Marler to start)
Ward (I've liked what I've seen but am still far from convinced, Hartley to start)
Sinkler (fantastic opportunity for the only real bolter, Wilson to start)
Attwood (Launchbury and Lawes to start)
Clarke (not my preferred option)
Dickson (Care to start)
Burns (Cipriani to start)
Daly (Eastmond to start inside/outside Burrell)

Would think that Thomas would still be ahead of Sinckler at this point. When he got his chance in the 6Ns he looked very solid. Not sure who will be the option for backrow, could be Clarke, Wallace or even someone like Fearns. I can't see Ford not starting the 1st test unless I'm missing something?

Is Webber confirmed to be missing the tour?

36 will not make the tour at all according to The Telegraph.

So options at 12 look like: L Burrell, K Eastmond, B Barritt. I would think Lancaster might even have them in that order. With the distributor option working well for England at IC, bringing Barritt back may be seen as regressing the offensive game-plan.

It would seem like a Burrell and Tuilagi axis is on the cards to me. Too much blunt force and not enough rapier?

Chjw131 wrote:...bringing Barritt back may be seen as regressing the offensive game-plan.

Mind you, he has looked good for Saracens.

Of course Barritt wont make the first test. Eastmond may well make a more than useful bench player. I know its just wrong to go on about it and I know he does make tackles and put his body on the line, but if Eastmond is playing, especially with a lightweight FH like Ford inside him, you just know where the big runners from the opposition are going to go every. single. time.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:...bringing Barritt back may be seen as regressing the offensive game-plan.

Mind you, he has looked good for Saracens.

I don't question his performances for Sarries. But they've been traditional Barritt performances. I watched a game a few weeks ago where he took two or three wrong options with an overlap outside.

I'm not saying he's not performing as expected but he's not been playing the role England would seem to require as it currently stands.

Cumbrian wrote:It would seem like a Burrell and Tuilagi axis is on the cards to me.  Too much blunt force and not enough rapier?

That would be my view yep. Having said that Burrell's handling is actually pretty good at times but he doesn't utilise the long pass much, offloads in contact are more his trademark. He can pass wide though. It's a bit like Tuilagi, it's not that he doesn't have the skill but is more tempted to take the contact first. With the two of them in the centre that temptation from both might stifle any wide play.

If however, they're coached well by Catt then perhaps Burrell can take advantage of that perception and move the ball wider.

Well Ashton and Yarde should have a field day off all these offloads.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would think that Thomas would still be ahead of Sinckler at this point. When he got his chance in the 6Ns he looked very solid. Not sure who will be the option for backrow, could be Clarke, Wallace or even someone like Fearns. I can't see Ford not starting the 1st test unless I'm missing something?

Thomas has been found wanting at scrum time on a few occasions and has failed to secure 1st team status in the games that have mattered. That said his open play is a positive and he has had experience around the international squad which is a benefit. He certainly has more experience than Sinckler and there is no doubt selecting Sinckler is a gamble, but in this instance I'm thinking about explosive impact from the bench and Sinckler to me appears to have more of a fast twitch muscle ability enabling him to puncture a tiring defence.

Regards the backrow bench option.......maybe Gaskell is a name we've not considered and his almost namesake Haskell who I don't think has yet hit the heights of previous years. Perhaps Haskell show against Stade? This is a massive opportunity for someone come 7th June.

Finally as for Ford.....Lancaster being forced to play some one other than Farrell is a god send to all concerned, and so forcing whoever to prove their worth will probably be one of the major bonuses of the tour. It's extremely tough on whoever (Ford?) is selected as apart from RSA there is no harder testing ground - it does remind me of when Nonu ran through Hodgson back in the day. Ford has a mighty big game tomorrow and to be honest I think he will be tested in the extreme - good luck to one and all in that regard. Finally I know I've mentioned it before however I do think Flood will still have a say in this season and so why not keep him in contention?

Agree it's a good thing Lancaster has to play a different out half. I do worry about Ford being trampled into little Ford bits in defense. But I suppose there is only one way to find out how he can hold up.

There still remains a chance that Saracens won't make the final.

I genuinely hope I didn't read Gaskells name there!!!

Rugby Fan wrote:There still remains a chance that Saracens won't make the final.

Whilst getting Farrell and Billy V back would be big boosts you could argue losing Davey Wilson would be a bigger blow should Bath beat them to the final. Or worse still Harlequins steal 4th then sneak a place in the final and we lose Robshaw, Care, Brown and Marler in one brutal blow. Not to mention Dave Ward rapidly becoming a possible starter should Hartley not recover in time!

We wouldn't miss Bill V as much as we have Ben Morgan who's class. Other positions arent quite as strong.

Has anyone watched the Blues in SR? We need to think very carefully about who plays at 12 as Nonu is looking on fire this season.

Last weekend he set up three tries, one from a bullet pass that Farrell or Care probably couldn't manage, one from a grubber that was point perfect and the third a classic Nonu: straight through the defence and offload to a supporting player to run in.

Ford and Eastmond would get annihilated trying to stop the guy!

Whilst I agree with some of the posters that Saracens and Leicester are possible finalists, purely on the rankings taking Saracens and Saints as the finalists this still leaves Leicester, Bath and Harlequins (amongst others) to choose from.

If Wood is not available, what about Slater as blindside? or in the mix somewhere. Back 5 options of Launchbury, Attwood, Slater, Morgan, Robshaw with perhaps Kitchener or Parling ( or even Paterson) as additional line-out options. Great pity that Garvey seems injured as he should really be in the mix.

Hopefully England at the least could front up.

CB

What today's Telegraph had to say about Webber

His restoration is a promising development for England head coach Stuart Lancaster, as is the news that Bath hooker Rob Webber is expected to recover from knee and ankle injuries in time to take his place on the plane to New Zealand. Webber suffered the injury in the draw against Northampton on Friday last week, sparking fears that it would rule him out of the three-Test tour. But a scan has shown the 27-year-old does not have any structural damage, and he could yet play again this season. “His ankle and knee are intact, which is unbelievable if you saw what happened,” Mike Ford, Bath’s director of rugby, said. “He has not done anything ligament-wise. He is very lucky. wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Has anyone watched the Blues in SR? We need to think very carefully about who plays at 12 as Nonu is looking on fire this season.

Last weekend he set up three tries, one from a bullet pass that Farrell or Care probably couldn't manage, one from a grubber that was point perfect and the third a classic Nonu: straight through the defence and offload to a supporting player to run in.

Ford and Eastmond would get annihilated trying to stop the guy!

I agree Nonu looks as good as he has ever been. Somewhere along the line he developed a fairly good distribution game and is much more than a straight ahead power runner. But against a pint-sized 10-12, he would be salivating like a wild dog. The counter point would be for the smurfs to make him run side to side which is how to attack him. But I would still be worried. Unless the match is near a hospital where I might be working. In that case, it might be more business pour moi.

As a neutral I'm just hoping to see Nonu and Fekitoa together in the centres at some point this season. Talk about a handful...

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Has anyone watched the Blues in SR? We need to think very carefully about who plays at 12 as Nonu is looking on fire this season.

Last weekend he set up three tries, one from a bullet pass that Farrell or Care probably couldn't manage, one from a grubber that was point perfect and the third a classic Nonu: straight through the defence and offload to a supporting player to run in.

Ford and Eastmond would get annihilated trying to stop the guy!

I agree Nonu looks as good as he has ever been.  Somewhere along the line he developed a fairly good distribution game and is much more than a straight ahead power runner.  But against a pint-sized 10-12, he would be salivating like a wild dog.  The counter point would be for the smurfs to make him run side to side which is how to attack him.  But I would still be worried.  Unless the match is near a hospital where I might be working.  In that case, it might be more business pour moi.

I'm certain Burrell will treasure the opportunity to prove his worth against an inform Nonu, the real question is who takes the 13 shirt?

Beaker wrote:What today's Telegraph had to say about Webber

Good news. Even if he doesn't make it to New Zealand

Notch wrote:As a neutral I'm just hoping to see Nonu and Fekitoa together in the centres at some point this season. Talk about a handful...

support the NH lad..or hate on England.... no neutrals allowed

Saints had Corbisiero on the bench today, is it too late to make the NZ tour, he will have at least one more game, possibly two this season. if Saints make the final, he will miss the first test.

I think that if he is fit enough, he has to go.

Interestingly I also saw a clip of the end of the Tigers - Sarries game, Tom Croft played as well.

Lancaster has already said that Corbisiero, Croft and Wade will not be taken, regardless (although even more injuries may change that I suppose).

Ward threw pretty well today...

Apparently Corbisiero, Cole, Croft, Wade and a couple of others are going to be left to have a full preseason, even if they are fit. They won't be test match fit and they'll have a big 18 months of rugby to come.

I think the ideal final from an England point of view would be a Sarries/Tigers final. Out of the first test starters we'd then lose Billy Vunipola, Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi, who could be replaced by Ben Morgan, George Ford and a Twelvetrees/Burrell partnership (if Twelvetrees is fit), or possibly Eastmond or Daly coming in at 13.

I'd like to see Sinckler called up to England behind Wilson and Thomas. I think Sinckler is a real prospect and getting minutes against the Barbarians and the midweek side (can't remember who), as well as the coaching and all-round squad experience would be invaluable for him.

I also would like to see recalls for Haskell, Cipriani, Ashton and Foden into the touring party. None of them would walk back into a full-strength first team, but all have experience at this level and have played well this season.

For me, the squad would look something like:

Forwards (24)
Loose-heads (4): Marler, Mako Vunipola, Mullan, Catt
Hookers (4): Hartley, Webber, Ward, Cowan-Dickie
Tight-heads (4): Wilson, Thomas, Sinckler
Second rows (5): Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood, Slater, Kitchener
Flankers (5): Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Johnson, Kvesic
Number 8s (2): Billy Vunipola, Ben Morgan

Backs (18)
Scrum halves (3): Care, Ben Youngs, Lee Dickson
Fly halves (3): Farrell, Ford, Cipriani
Centres (5): Twelvetrees, Burrell, Tuilagi, Eastmond, Daly
Wings (5): Yarde, May, Ashton, Foden, Watson
Fullbacks (2): Brown, Goode

Gives us quite a bloated squad of 42. Ideally I always think a matchday 23 with 15 more is right, but I've added four more (Catt, Cowan-Dickie, Kvesic and Watson are right on the border for me) as cover for injuries and other absentees, while also giving these 4 guys a chance to get some gametime in an England shirt against the Barbarians and in the midweek side.

surely Ashton has guaranteed himself a starter again?

I expect Saracens to beat Quins, in which case he won't be able to play the first test. In which case I'd start Yarde and May. How they play would then determine whether Ahston came straight back into the starting line-up or not.

Should Saracens not make it, I'd be tempted to have him in over May, but I'm not sure.

I like May a lot- But Ashton has the spot again. You cant ask for more after dropping a player who at best is the best we have. Because he is back at that level.

You are right- he probably wont be available first test- but as soon as he is- he is starting for me.

We are huge underdogs who have been playing KO rugby for weeks. No pressure, no expectation, bring it on Sarriea

ChequeredJersey wrote:Ward threw pretty well today...

Other than that early one that was really caught by the wind I thought he did really well. The one soon after that was over the top to Maurie seemed to be curved towards the Bath line and the. Back on the wind so it ended up dead straight, pretty impressive.

HammerofThunor wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Ward threw pretty well today...

Other than that early one that was really caught by the wind I thought he did really well. The one soon after that was over the top to Maurie seemed to be curved towards the Bath line and the. Back on the wind so it ended up dead straight, pretty impressive.

It's easier to throw with the players you play with week in, week out. It's when you start to combine with players who your not used to playing with. Hope Ward gets selected, he's done enough imo but i do think his throwing could be a little bit of an issue.

Delighted for Quins. No disrespect to Bath at all who have reallly come on this season but I love watching Quins play and they've really done it when it matters in the last few weeks.

The Wasps/Saints game sounds like it's worth watching the highlights!

Oops. Probably should have put this in the AP section!

go'on the quins

i went to the sarries match vs clermont and thoroughly enjoyed it. would love quins to win vs sarries, but it's a big ask. the only small, small positive aside from our heart and flair, is that sarries have the HC final the following weekend so they are juggling multiple prizes...

from an england perspective, quins players, on recent form, are more key. robshaw, care and brown outweigh the 2 v's, farrell and goode/ashton. so at least if we lose in the playoffs, england will be the better for it in the first test.

I dont watch many club games- but that play off game is going to be on my To watch list. Cant wait.

Telegraph says Lancaster asked Sale to rest Cipriani, which seems to put him in te frame for the squad.

If Saracens do miss out on the final, it'll be interesting to see what Lancaster does at fly half for the first Test if Ford, Farrell and Cipriani are all available. You'd think the tour is the place to let one of the other 10s have at least one start. I wonder whether he will try Farrell in the centre for all or part of a game?

Why would he try Farrell at centre? Just don't see the point when we have lots of other centre's out there.

Farrell can make a big impression off the bench if he's not starting, coming into a game that your team is already leading or losing is very different to starting, it'll test his skills to try it a few times this summer.