Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Nachos Jones wrote:So you honestly think that if Zebo had have played in those games against 'real teams' he would not have performed as well as Dave Kearney? I believe that he would have had an impact in those games.

His defence is better than DK, his attacking flair is also on a higher level, his work rate is better, his handling skills are better and his speed leaves DK for dead.

Bold is absolute Nos Absolute No.

Aahh Fly, there are none so blind as those wearing blinkers

I'm not telling you to keep yours on, Nachos. Don't blame me

I thought he needed to straighten up more and draw defenders and when he came in off his wing off that 5m scrum that was terrifying, if the ball goes to hand it's a try and he looks dead silly.

That being said he was pretty class in everything else he did, looked pretty good in most aspects of play. Definitely adds to this Ireland team.

Aah Fly, you're good for a laugh. Good man yourself

Agree that Zebo was peripheral and only showed flashes. He should get picked in the second test, but will need to do better if he is to be retained for the autumn. Given the competition I could see him dropping out of the squad again unless he steps it up.

Jordi Murphy is decent but I really don't think he's an 8. Marshall should be looking over his shoulder because if he plays like that next season he will drop out of the Ulster team. He had some very nice touches but unless he does better Olding and Cave could both leapfrog him from an Ulster point of view.

Nachos Jones wrote:So you honestly think that if Zebo had have played in those games against 'real teams' he would not have performed as well as Dave Kearney? I believe that he would have had an impact in those games.

His defence is better than DK, his attacking flair is also on a higher level, his work rate is better, his handling skills are better and his speed leaves DK for dead.

Are Wales a real team (remember the flick for Healy's try & BOD's pass), or South Africa or Argentina (teams Zebo has played against as far as I know).

Notch wrote:Agree that Zebo was peripheral and only showed flashes. He should get picked in the second test, but will need to do better if he is to be retained for the autumn. Given the competition I could see him dropping out of the squad again unless he steps it up.

Jordi Murphy is decent but I really don't think he's an 8. Marshall should be looking over his shoulder because if he plays like that next season he will drop out of the Ulster team. He had some very nice touches but unless he does better Olding and Cave could both leapfrog him from an Ulster point of view.

Zebo was too occupied making tackles last night. Its a while since I've seen a wing having to make as many as a backrower. The midfield was very porous.

Sin é wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:So you honestly think that if Zebo had have played in those games against 'real teams' he would not have performed as well as Dave Kearney? I believe that he would have had an impact in those games.

His defence is better than DK, his attacking flair is also on a higher level, his work rate is better, his handling skills are better and his speed leaves DK for dead.

Are Wales a real team (remember the flick for Healy's try & BOD's pass), or South Africa or Argentina (teams Zebo has played against as far as I know).

I just don't get it, he has proven time and time again the quality that he has and I truly believe that he is the better option for Ireland. That does not mean that DK is a bad player, simply that Zebo is the better option. His handling skills are excellent and his much attacked defensive skills are not in question as far as I am concerned.

Sin é wrote:

Zebo was too occupied making tackles last night. Its a while since I've seen a wing having to make as many as a backrower. The midfield was very porous.

Against a second string Argentina. You've never been prepared to mention anything about Kearney being "too occupied making tackles" when saying Zebo would offer so much more in attack than him.
Which is it, Sin? Is it a tough job showing flair when playing for Schmidt in a boring tackle, ruck hitting 'obey orders' way - or is there still genuine room for individual moments of attacking genius? I thought the idea was that Zebo had the ability to do both?

Tackling stats from last night: Made/missed
11. Zebo 9/1
12: Marshall 5/3
13: Cave 5/2
14: Trimble 5/3
15: Jones 5/1

I think no one can question Zebo's workrate with those stats. Henry was the top tackler at 15/2.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Zebo was too occupied making tackles last night. Its a while since I've seen a wing having to make as many as a backrower. The midfield was very porous.

Against a second string Argentina.  You've never been prepared to mention anything about Kearney being "too occupied making tackles" when saying Zebo would offer so much more in attack than him.  
Which is it, Sin?  Is it a tough job showing flair when playing for Schmidt in a boring tackle, ruck hitting 'obey orders' way - or is there still genuine room for individual moments of attacking genius?  I thought the idea was that Zebo had the ability to do both?

I thought he did ok last night in attack. Sublime offload for Cave's non-try. (I bet Keith Earls foot wouldn't have been in touch for that one if he was at the receiving end of it;) )

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Zebo was too occupied making tackles last night. Its a while since I've seen a wing having to make as many as a backrower. The midfield was very porous.

Against a second string Argentina.  You've never been prepared to mention anything about Kearney being "too occupied making tackles" when saying Zebo would offer so much more in attack than him.  
Which is it, Sin?  Is it a tough job showing flair when playing for Schmidt in a boring tackle, ruck hitting 'obey orders' way - or is there still genuine room for individual moments of attacking genius?  I thought the idea was that Zebo had the ability to do both?

But Zebo did show flair in attacks last night but was also called into defensive duties a lot more than he should have been and he really showed his worth there again. What more does he have to prove?

Zebo was OK - not great, not bad either. He moved wings a lot more and got into rucks more than usual. He uses that hesitating step too much for my liking - it actually stops his momentum so is counterproductive when overused. His kicking with the left peg was a big asset that Joe had obviously made plans for.

Nachos Jones wrote:

But Zebo did show flair in attacks last night but was also called into defensive duties a lot more than he should have been and he really showed his worth there again. What more does he have to prove?

Nachos, in DOD's world and in Sin's world, attacking flair don't cut it unless you get in.  Not getting in is the habitual joke about Kearney.  "Occupied making tackles" is the habitual joke about Kearney.  Falling over his own boot straps before getting in is the habitual joke about Kearney.  

Succeeding is the only key to the job as far as DOD and Sin have been concerned.  I'm saying our attack was insignificant last night.... NOT in any way blaming Zebo alone for of that lack of team hunger and cohesion btw.  But he was there - on the wing, where many wanted him - and had Kearney been there and had he done a lot of donkey work and no tries, we'd be listening now to the old jokes about boring Dave - nice trier, eternal Mr "Yes sir" as regards Schmidt orders..... but no classy balls.

I agree on his tackle making stats but would anyone disagree that his system reads were really dodge? Would anyone else agree that when the Pumas had a scrum on our 5metre line in the first half, they went short side on an 8-9-Blindside wing move.

Diack too the 8, Sexton took the 9 and the blindside winger was left free because Zebo came in.

The 9 got the ball away and had it gone to hand it would have been a walk in try because Zebo jumped the line and tried to tackle the 9 (who Sexton already had).

I think those are the kinda mistakes that guys like Trimble, Bowe, Dk just don't make. A better team would have converted that quite easily I think.

Fly, you all had a go at Zebo's defensive abilities and you have all again been proven wrong.
You all had a go at his work rate level's and again, you have all been proven wrong.

His slight of hand in attacking is that of a top class winger, his lines are great, his support play is up there with the best around, his left foot is a very good asset to have and his speed is amazing.

These are the things that sets him above Dave Kearney in my eyes. Dave Kearney is a predictable winger, good at what he does but predictable. I would have Zebo over him in an Ireland side any day of the week.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I agree on his tackle making stats but would anyone disagree that his system reads were really dodge? Would anyone else agree that when the Pumas had a scrum on our 5metre line in the first half, they went short side on an 8-9-Blindside wing move.

Diack too the 8, Sexton took the 9 and the blindside winger was left free because Zebo came in.

The 9 got the ball away and had it gone to hand it would have been a walk in try because Zebo jumped the line and tried to tackle the 9 (who Sexton already had).

I think those are the kinda mistakes that guys like Trimble, Bowe, Dk just don't make. A better team would have converted that quite easily I think.

No, DK just gets chased down by second rowers

Nachos Jones wrote:Fly, you all had a go at Zebo's defensive abilities and you have all again been proven wrong.
You all had a go at his work rate level's and again, you have all been proven wrong.

Correction:
Us all AND Joseph Schmidt.  
All of us and Joseph Schmidt, Nachos.  

Yes.  I had a go at Zebo about his in/out visibility through games and I certainly had issues with him last year when he stayed as far away from any action as possible whilst playing for his country and waiting for a Lions call up.  Yep, I was pizzed with that one - admit it - furious with that one - one of the first to mention it at the time and only some months later did we find out Irish camp itself wasn't happy about that lack of commitment.

So yes, Zebo had much to prove.  I've said - without prompting - in one of my earlier posts on him here - that's he's on his way and I hope he gets the next game too when the team might have more cohesion and he perhaps gets more moments to do the fancy stuff we all like to see him do.  
But don't forget to mention Joseph Schmidt when talking about what "we" were all having a go at him about.  We weren't alone. We were in good company.  If he had a good industrious run-out last night then we have Schmidt to thank for it.  Even Quinlan admitted that Zebo was knuckling down to give Joe what he wants from him.  Progress.   

Thought Quinlan made a great point that Cave should back himself more with the ball in hand - agree 100%.

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Fly, you all had a go at Zebo's defensive abilities and you have all again been proven wrong.
You all had a go at his work rate level's and again, you have all been proven wrong.

Correction:
Us all AND Joseph Schmidt.  
All of us and Joseph Schmidt, Nachos.  

 

Perhaps that was because JS was blinded by his Leinster bias and you were all sheep and followed his opinions because you were unable to form your own? Those of us that have watched Zebo his whole career were never in doubt of his abilities

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Fly, you all had a go at Zebo's defensive abilities and you have all again been proven wrong.
You all had a go at his work rate level's and again, you have all been proven wrong.

Correction:
Us all AND Joseph Schmidt.  
All of us and Joseph Schmidt, Nachos.  

Yes.  I had a go at Zebo about his in/out visibility through games and I certainly had issues with him last year when he stayed as far away from any action as possible whilst playing for his country and waiting for a Lions call up.  Yep, I was pizzed with that one - admit it - furious with that one - one of the first to mention it at the time and only some months later did we find out Irish camp itself wasn't happy about that lack of commitment.

So yes, Zebo had much to prove.  I've said - without prompting - in one of my earlier posts on him here - that's he's on his way and I hope he gets the next game too when the team might have more cohesion and he perhaps gets more moments to do the fancy stuff we all like to see him do.  
But don't forget to mention Joseph Schmidt when talking about what "we" were all having a go at him about.  We weren't alone. We were in good company.  If he had a good industrious run-out last night then we have Schmidt to thank for it.  Even Quinlan admitted that Zebo was knuckling down to give Joe what he wants from him.  Progress.   

A lot of people think what Schmidt wants from Zebo is wrong (i.e., hitting rucks rather than hitting the line).

I only mentioned the stuff that Zebo is criticised for - his defence and work ethic. His attacking flair goes without saying (and last night he made double the runs of any other back (14) as well as doing all that tackling. He also made more passes (5) than Darren Cave (3) which is very odd considering Cave should have got his hands on the ball more often. Marshall passed 8 times. He also had the highest number of offloads (3) for the game. Marshall is the only other Irish player to offload (1).





Zebo is criticised for coming in - looks to me like he has been told to do so by the coach.

The Great Aukster wrote:Thought Quinlan made a great point that Cave should back himself more with the ball in hand - agree 100%.

He doesn't have the gas.

The Great Aukster wrote:Thought Quinlan made a great point that Cave should back himself more with the ball in hand - agree 100%.

Me too.  Not just about him though.  All over the park it was the Argentinians that were backing themselves from the off.  Ball received - afterburners - pass - afterburners - elusive dink and pass - afterburners.  Argentinians attacked the spaces in front of them.  They ran with a readiness to see how far their momentum would take them.  

Our guys ran with thoughts of what they'd do when they were stopped.  Again it looks like another time when Schmidt's attention to detail has players trying to think and plan in advance.  O'Connell has alluded to it on more than one occasion about how different it is to play contained by a book full of directions.  He said it was a balancing act to find the right passion levels when alligning them to all the technical detail you're trying to keep in your head and act on.

It seems everytime Schmidt gets a newish bunch to work with, they have initial difficulty managing his expectations and their own urges.  Like I say, I hope the second game will have ironed out some of that and the guys can attack the game much more directly and consistently than last night.

Sin é wrote:
Zebo is criticised for coming in - looks to me like he has been told to do so by the coach.

By one person I think. Not by me. And no, Joe is not wrong. Quinlan doesn't think so. You have to do your work so that other players don't end up doing your work and their own. That was Schmidt's warning for all hopeful players. They all know the deal. You play in a Schmidt team you don't wait to be handed your glory moments, you work for them.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Zebo is criticised for coming in - looks to me like he has been told to do so by the coach.

By one person I think.  Not by me.  And no, Joe is not wrong.  Quinlan doesn't think so.  You have to do your work so that other players don't end up doing your work and their own.  That was Schmidt's warning for all hopeful players.  They all know the deal.  You play in a Schmidt team you don't wait to be handed your glory moments, you work for them.

Quinlan's point was that Zebo is knuckling down to what Joe Schmidt wants of him. In other words, as a player, the coach is always right when he is your couch and you want to get selected.

Rob Penney had a completely different view of Zebo and criticised the kiwi 'Tall Poppy Syndrome'.

Schmidt won two HECs. Penney didn't. Had Zebo played with Schmidt at Leinster you'd be less likely to see his HEC winning merits right now...and he'd have played differently to how he does at Munster.

Quinlan was saying what he was saying. No need for your translations. He said what he said. Zebo needed to knuckle down and do what was asked of him, yes. He seems to be doing that. 9/1. It's you crowing about it. 9/1. Handy when you meet tougher International outfits into the future.

SecretFly wrote:Schmidt won two HECs.  Penney didn't.  Had Zebo played with Schmidt at Leinster you'd be less likely to see his HEC winning merits right now...and he'd have played differently to how he does at Munster.

Quinlan was saying what he was saying.  No need for your translations.  He said what he said.  Zebo needed to knuckle down to how joe wants him to play, yes.  He seems to be doing that.  9/1.  It's you crowing about it.  9/1.  Handy when you meet tougher International outfits into the future.    

Fixed that for you.

Zebo is getting criticised for his defence and for being lazy which is a little odd considering how poor the rest of the backs were. He also got criticised for his lack of attack (yet he made double the runs that any other back made) and more offloads despite being out on the wing where the outside centre didn't pass (3 passes in 80 minutes).

If Zebo is going to find it tough against another international outfit, god help the rest of them.

knuckle down to how Joe wants him to play ....confirmation ...yes.  Joe knows more about rugby than Simon and you.... and me.  Knuckle down to how Joe wants him to play.  Quinlan was right twice over

If Joe is 'wrong' - like "a lot of people" allegedly think, then I'd like to see us with a coach who knows how to do things right - we'd either be 9th in the world, like we were in the not too distant past, or we would have won the last world cup by stuffing Wales before they stuffed us.

It's nice of people to think they know more than Schmidt about what Simon should be concentrating on in a game.  "Leave him be, Joe! Don't you be ruining that man!  Just let him do his own thing, he'll wise you up on how to do it with style"

Sin é wrote:

Zebo is getting criticised for his defence and for being lazy which is a little odd considering how poor the rest of the backs were. He also got criticised for his lack of attack (yet he made double the runs that any other back made) and more offloads despite being out on the wing where the outside centre didn't pass (3 passes in 80 minutes).

Zebo WAS getting criticised for his defence and for being lazy.  WAS - ie, before last night's game.  After last night he is getting told he is following orders, like the rest of his teammates have to.  Good man.  Keep it up.

SecretFly wrote:knuckle down to how Joe wants him to play ....confirmation ...yes.  Joe knows more about rugby than Simon and you.... and me.  Knuckle down to how Joe wants him to play.  Quinlan was right twice over

If Joe is 'wrong' - like "a lot of people" allegedly think, then I'd like to see us with a coach who knows how to do things right - we'd either be 9th in the world, like were in the not too distant past, or we would have won the last world cup by stuffing Wales before they stuffed us.

It's nice of people to think they know more than Schmidt about what Simon should be concentrating on in a game.  "Leave him be, Joe! Don't you be ruining that man!  Just let him do his own thing, he'll wise you up on how to do it with style"

hmm, lets hope we don't have another Carlos Spencer situation on our hands. And while I mention King Carlos, look out for his Eastern Province Kings v Wales during the week.   I wonder how that team will play?

Carlos Bloomin' Spencer!!!!  'Ere we go, 'ere we go, 'ere we go!'

Sin - can you even get out of your bedroom these days with all the posters of Carlos you must have up at this point?  I can't help you.  Only advice I can give is to tell you to look for a bright patch behind one or two of those posters... it's probably a window.  Either that or just call the firebrigade to get you out.

BTW.... I hope Carlos stays away from coaching his players or else they'll flatline against Wales!!!  
Just let the boys do their own thing, Carlos.  Don't interfere and certainly don't dictate strategy or gameplans.  The lads will do their own thing, God be good to them  

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Agree that Zebo was peripheral and only showed flashes. He should get picked in the second test, but will need to do better if he is to be retained for the autumn. Given the competition I could see him dropping out of the squad again unless he steps it up.

Jordi Murphy is decent but I really don't think he's an 8. Marshall should be looking over his shoulder because if he plays like that next season he will drop out of the Ulster team. He had some very nice touches but unless he does better Olding and Cave could both leapfrog him from an Ulster point of view.

Zebo was too occupied making tackles last night. Its a while since I've seen a wing having to make as many as a backrower. The midfield was very porous.

Yeah, not impressed with Marshall in that regard. As for Zebo- he was ok. Just ok. Dave Kearney is also okay. My money is on our starting wingers for South Africa to be two out of Bowe, Trimble, McFadden or Earls.

The thing is though, a wingers most important job is defence. From that point of view both Zebo and Trimble had a mixed night. Zebo made terrible call on the blind side move and Trimble was skinned on the outside by the big winger and was caught out positionally a couple of times.
I thought Cave was pretty good and is in pole position to continue at 13. I wasn't too upset by Marshalls glaring missed tackle as the step to beat him was just so good. Sexton looked a class above everyone else but the lad couldnt kick snow off a rope.
Think Dave ah You did well while he was on and we destroyed one Arg scrum with himself and Kilcoyne on.
I really enjoyed the game.

Is it really time to say "That'll do Pig" to Sexton?

.............On his kicking duties!

Surely there must be someone who might be able to take that presure off him/us with a more predictable boot, as with Halfpenny and Wales.

No, I'm not saying we kidnap Halfpenny and brainwash him into being an Irish man by locking him in a room with Michael "tis to begorrah that I'm Irish" Flatley for 3 months.  
But surely, there must be alternatives at the boot game for goal that could be tried out.  It isn't a requirement that the kicker is a 10, and Submachine is right about the rope and the snow.

Submachine wrote:The thing is though, a wingers most important job is defence. From that point of view both Zebo and Trimble had a mixed night. Zebo made terrible call on the blind side move and Trimble was skinned on the outside by the big winger and was caught out positionally a couple of times.
I thought Cave was pretty good and is in pole position to continue at 13. I wasn't too upset by Marshalls glaring missed tackle as the step to beat him was just so good. Sexton looked a class above everyone else but the lad couldnt kick snow off a rope.
Think Dave ah You did well while he was on and we destroyed one Arg scrum with himself and Kilcoyne on.
I really enjoyed the game.

Zebo missed 1 tackle while his counterparts missed buckets of them, yet he is the one who gets most criticism! He also made double the number of tackles of any of the backs. Seems to me that Cave was way too intent on going forward without having the gas or finishing skills to finish anything off and as the defensive organiser (I presume as he does that role for Ulster), he was poor at organising the defence. Considering Cave or Marshall can't claim lack of time together, it was a very poor defensive performance between them.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Agree that Zebo was peripheral and only showed flashes. He should get picked in the second test, but will need to do better if he is to be retained for the autumn. Given the competition I could see him dropping out of the squad again unless he steps it up.

Jordi Murphy is decent but I really don't think he's an 8. Marshall should be looking over his shoulder because if he plays like that next season he will drop out of the Ulster team. He had some very nice touches but unless he does better Olding and Cave could both leapfrog him from an Ulster point of view.

Zebo was too occupied making tackles last night. Its a while since I've seen a wing having to make as many as a backrower. The midfield was very porous.

Yeah, not impressed with Marshall in that regard. As for Zebo- he was ok. Just ok. Dave Kearney is also okay. My money is on our starting wingers for South Africa to be two out of Bowe, Trimble, McFadden or Earls.

McFadden will not be a starter in the back 3. He is the ultimate super sub (who can kick as well).
Going on Earls recent injury problems, he might not make it. Himself and Luke Fitzgerald are just too injury prone.

Nachos Jones wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I agree on his tackle making stats but would anyone disagree that his system reads were really dodge? Would anyone else agree that when the Pumas had a scrum on our 5metre line in the first half, they went short side on an 8-9-Blindside wing move.

Diack too the 8, Sexton took the 9 and the blindside winger was left free because Zebo came in.

The 9 got the ball away and had it gone to hand it would have been a walk in try because Zebo jumped the line and tried to tackle the 9 (who Sexton already had).

I think those are the kinda mistakes that guys like Trimble, Bowe, Dk just don't make. A better team would have converted that quite easily I think.

No, DK just gets chased down by second rowers

Bryan Habanna was caught by Gethin Jenkins on the 2009 Lions tour. Anyone can catch anyone if the angle is right. Get a new argument.

Notch wrote:Agree that Zebo was peripheral and only showed flashes. He should get picked in the second test, but will need to do better if he is to be retained for the autumn. Given the competition I could see him dropping out of the squad again unless he steps it up.

Jordi Murphy is decent but I really don't think he's an 8. Marshall should be looking over his shoulder because if he plays like that next season he will drop out of the Ulster team. He had some very nice touches but unless he does better Olding and Cave could both leapfrog him from an Ulster point of view.

I have a feeling Murphy will be a bit like Chris Henry. He is too small for 8, but he could become a very good 7. Apparently it is his preferred position as well. Maybe they are just searching for more options at 8 and that is why he is there currently?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I agree on his tackle making stats but would anyone disagree that his system reads were really dodge? Would anyone else agree that when the Pumas had a scrum on our 5metre line in the first half, they went short side on an 8-9-Blindside wing move.

Diack too the 8, Sexton took the 9 and the blindside winger was left free because Zebo came in.

The 9 got the ball away and had it gone to hand it would have been a walk in try because Zebo jumped the line and tried to tackle the 9 (who Sexton already had).

I think those are the kinda mistakes that guys like Trimble, Bowe, Dk just don't make. A better team would have converted that quite easily I think.

No, DK just gets chased down by second rowers

Bryan Habanna was caught by Gethin Jenkins on the 2009 Lions tour. Anyone can catch anyone if the angle is right. Get a new argument.

Why, you pointed out a mistake that Zebo made in comparison to what DK would not have done and I responded in kind. Good for the goose, good for the gander my friend

Submachine wrote:The thing is though, a wingers most important job is defence.

Eh.. is that a joke? This is why the SH will always be dominant and why we are so far behind, they have the mindset to pick playmakers and finishers, not defensive walls with no flair.

The back three should be there to primarily score tries, and the best players in those positions are not all great defenders.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Submachine wrote:The thing is though, a wingers most important job is defence.

Eh.. is that a joke?  This is why the SH will always be dominant and why we are so far behind, they have the mindset to pick playmakers and finishers, not defensive walls with no flair.

The back three should be there to primarily score tries, and the best players in those positions are not all great defenders.

agree in general terms with that, but specifically in terms of Ireland's development submachine is probably right. We don't breed speedsters, and Irish society generally frowns upon the flash folks among us. Look at us in the olympics, we're just not great. Zebo is quick, but not THAT quick, a couple Argies had his measure last night.

An Irish team will rarely feature an explosive finisher like Savea, but that doesn't matter with Schmidt as tries come from all over the park, a style which works very well with our naturally smart, never huge, sometimes explosive player base.

Basically, I'd reluctantly agree that defence and all round support play are probably the most important attributes for Irish wingers.

Playmakers and finishers are absobloomin marvelous.  All for them, as long as they are Playmakers and finishers.  I don't want any players with signs on their backs they can't match.
Plus........ All Blacks have playmakers and finishers all over the field.  Forwards can easily mimic backs if in the right place at the right time.  

If we're looking to age old theory and demanding our 'wings' do all the playmaking and no defending/ball stealing then we're prepared to watch them staying out on the fringes smoking their pipes as the guys in the middle try, try an try to get the ball to them.  In short, if we want Schmidt to stick to the idea that wings are the creative things dangling on the side lines, we'll die a thousand deaths against genuine playmaking sides.
Rather than us bemoaning the fact that we're short playmaking wings, let us bemoan the fact instead that we tend to breed forwards that don't like mimicing backs and who thus put too much 'creative' pressure onto the shoulders of wings. - Cronin being a noteworthy exception here.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Submachine wrote:The thing is though, a wingers most important job is defence.

Eh.. is that a joke?  This is why the SH will always be dominant and why we are so far behind, they have the mindset to pick playmakers and finishers, not defensive walls with no flair.

The back three should be there to primarily score tries, and the best players in those positions are not all great defenders.

I think you're giving me a bit too much credit in thinking a comment I make here could influence an entire hemispheres rugby philosophy.   
Every game starts with a draw. Wing is the most exposed position on the pitch and therefore defence is the most important aspect IMO.
A team like New Zealand don't need to prioritise a wingers defence as they don't usually give opposition teams too much opportunity to attack out wide. The fact that Zebo had to make 9 tackles in a game against a second string Argentina would back up my point.

Submachine, how in the name of god is rob kearney in the Ireland back 3 then? He is a terrible defender. Thats is one of the reasons why Tomas O'Leary & Conor Murray got ahead of everyone else - they are just brilliant defenders who can cover for our fullback.

I think their is no one rule when it comes to a wingers primary role.

Thescore.ie did a good article a while ago to show Leinster's defensive systems and showed that the wingers drop back far to cover kicks but the blitz defense employed means that the wingers have to react quickly and move up massively quickly if the ball goes wide.

Submachine wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Submachine wrote:The thing is though, a wingers most important job is defence.

Eh.. is that a joke?  This is why the SH will always be dominant and why we are so far behind, they have the mindset to pick playmakers and finishers, not defensive walls with no flair.

The back three should be there to primarily score tries, and the best players in those positions are not all great defenders.

I think you're giving me a bit too much credit in thinking a comment I make here could influence an entire hemispheres rugby philosophy.   
Every game starts with a draw. Wing is the most exposed position on the pitch and therefore defence is the most important aspect IMO.
A team like New Zealand don't need to prioritise a wingers defence as they don't usually give opposition teams too much opportunity to attack out wide. The fact that Zebo had to make 9 tackles in a game against a second string Argentina would back up my point.

Wing isn't the most exposed position on the pitch. The most exposed position on the pitch is the 10 and the 12 & 13 channel. The 13 channel is by far the most difficult to defend.

Only an Irish thread could have orgasms about delicious, delectable, sultry and sexy defensive systems Another difference between our mentality and that of the New Zealanders!

Sin é wrote:Submachine, how in the name of god is rob kearney in the Ireland back 3 then? He is a terrible defender. Thats is one of the reasons why Tomas O'Leary & Conor Murray got ahead of everyone else - they are just brilliant defenders who can cover for our fullback.

Full back is not wing. When Rob plays on the wing he is a very good defender. He is a decent defender at full back also but does miss a few. But again that just backs up my point if the winger is beaten on the outside it's try time. A scrambling fullback making a tackle is a bonus.