Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Joe Schmidt was the Backs coach at the Blues. You think he had no say in the matter.

'Course he would, Sin.  But I mention Kiss all the time.  That's probably the first time you mentioned Sloane  And it ain't even you mentioning him - it's a bloomin' quote.

Kiss is obviously keen to hang onto his job now that Nucifora & Joe are running the show.

Wasn't Kiss the Ireland Backs coach that gave Zebo his first couple of caps?

rodders wrote:Everyone deserves a second chance, even Joe.

Ah look his results in the 6ns speak for themselves...its just that a certain type seem to think he is completely above criticism and that his past is not completely unblemished...

Of course everyone deserves a second chance, particularly if they realise they made an error of judgement. But it seems Schmidt thinks he was correct to bin Spencer and the plain folk of New Zealand, particularly the Blues, don't agree with that.

Schmidt continues to have the same rugby philosophy - flair players are not allowed.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Joe Schmidt was the Backs coach at the Blues. You think he had no say in the matter.

'Course he would, Sin.  But I mention Kiss all the time.  That's probably the first time you mentioned Sloane  And it ain't even you mentioning him - it's a bloomin' quote.

Kiss is obviously keen to hang onto his job now that Nucifora & Joe are running the show.

Wasn't Kiss the Ireland Backs coach that gave Zebo his first couple of caps?

He (Kiss) was keeping his head and opinions down then too to keep his job? For a man with no opinions he's certainly sliding nicely past a few close call dismissals. He's back on the camel this time round when others hit the dirt. I wonder what 'opinions' he is giving now to Schmidt that he didn't bother giving to poor Kidney? Maybe he just wanted Kidney's job all along and stopped his opinions a few years before he planned taking it?
Ah, the shenanigans of Professional sport. Friends - a tent - and full bladders. A Volatile mix that makes sure you never know when you might need a rain coat.

Sin é wrote:Of course everyone deserves a second chance...

Except O'Sullivan.

Oh dear Fly....Munster have announced their full coaching staff for next year....not a Kiwi nor Kangeroo amongst them...clearly havent been listening to you...we are doomed.

You have to hand it to Zeebs. He won't let Schmidt break him    

http://inpho.ie/media/wZ12FHHW4Cr3AqVqcrNW4A..a?ts=reDwyCwd_-ucNn8P3UONxg..a

white sock, everyone else navy!

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Of course everyone deserves a second chance...

Except O'Sullivan.

He is getting it now from fat serge!

http://inpho.ie/media/WP0irTqBPnrBR4EmHJV2JQ..a?ts=s8csWrc8ukxQF3bnaX7TgA..a

Wow Zebo really put Schmidt in his place alright. Sin must have a pretty poor opinion of Zebo if you think he's so immature that he would do that just to show Schmidt he's not going to conform.

Ah, chill ASLS, Zeebs was wearing his socks around his ankles long before Joe Schmidt came on the scene, so he is hardly doing it to annoy him now.

Sin é wrote:Ah, chill ASLS, Zeebs was wearing his socks around his ankles long before Joe Schmidt came on the scene, so he is hardly doing it to annoy him now.

You're the one implying that,I think Zebo is more professional than that and wearing white socks is no big deal.It's not some subtle up yours to Schmidt like you obviously hope it is.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ah, chill ASLS, Zeebs was wearing his socks around his ankles long before Joe Schmidt came on the scene, so he is hardly doing it to annoy him now.

You're the one implying that,I think Zebo is more professional than that and wearing white socks is no big deal.It's not some subtle up yours to Schmidt like you obviously hope it is.

No, its Zebo carrying on as normal. He hasn't changed his style to please Schmidt.

Zebo wears white socks because they give the illusion that he is running faster than he is. Oldest trick in the book.

Showed a good bit of speed to run down Seymour when he was clear last weekend....

That's because Seymour was wearing blue socks.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ah, chill ASLS, Zeebs was wearing his socks around his ankles long before Joe Schmidt came on the scene, so he is hardly doing it to annoy him now.

You're the one implying that,I think Zebo is more professional than that and wearing white socks is no big deal.It's not some subtle up yours to Schmidt like you obviously hope it is.

No, its Zebo carrying on as normal. He hasn't changed his style to please Schmidt.

You obviously think he needs to?Yet he's there involved in the squad despite not changing his style,probably cos Schmidt doesn't care about something as innocuous as what colour socks Zebo wears.He's fit and playing pretty well so is getting his chance on merit,it's so crazy it just might work.

Rumour has it Paddy Jackson is out of the tour with injury.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:Rumour has it Paddy Jackson is out of the tour with injury.

Saw Richard Mulligan of the News Letter tweet that, he generally is in the know and pretty dependable. Real shame for Paddy as it was a great chance to get some game time. It'll also place more strain on Sexton as our only remaining on form 10, he'll now have to start both games.

Scratch that... looks like he will travel now.

Surely if PJ can't travel Madigan would be moved up from Ireland A??

and jackson is out again

Yes, he's out. Very unfortunate.

So Keatley or Madigan to tour.

Keatley has had the better year thats for sure.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/1521/Paddy-Jackson-ruled-out-of-Ireland-Tour-of-Argentina-.aspx#.U3yktoMSopc.twitter

Gutted for Paddy

Heard on the news at 2 that Madigan has been called up.

Very unfortunate for Jackson.

Does anyone  know why one of the games is in Uruguay?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Does anyone  know why one of the games is in Uruguay?

Both are in Argentina

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Does anyone  know why one of the games is in Uruguay?

Both are in Argentina

The first game is in estadio centenario in Montevideo no?

Golden wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Does anyone  know why one of the games is in Uruguay?

Both are in Argentina

The first game is in estadio centenario in Montevideo no?

You have the wrong Estadio Centenario there. I think this is the venue; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estadio_Centenario_(Resistencia)

Madigan has been very poor this year and is not first team choice and didn't start big hc games! Surely to god keatley has has had a great year is next in line?

Not in the Joe show

Sure Keatley is shoite and JJ is better then him......

Thomond wrote:Sure Keatley is shoite and JJ is better then him......

Quiet frankly both are better than madigan.

BlueMuff wrote:

Thomond wrote:Sure Keatley is shoite and JJ is better then him......

Quiet frankly both are better than madigan.

only in the mind of a munster man

Schmidt doesn't like flair players...

If MaGigan only dropped his socks by about five inches down his shins he'd improve percentage-wise on his inventive geniusness capacity to the tune of about some 38.786%.  Make the socks white and that's another 6 % on top of that.

Add that to his present 28.639% and that puts him on par with Jackson on an off-day....which is more than good enough for Argentina.

ok here's a crazy idea....wait for it......wait for it......a little longer. ankle socks

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:ok here's a crazy idea....wait for it......wait for it......a little longer. ankle socks

I like the way you're thinking, I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Does anyone care about the results here or are we just looking at the performance and building towards a 6N and RWC double next season?

Treat all Irish players with white ankle socks - strictly controlled and monitored by medical professionals of course - and that would quite possibly win us our first WC.

rodders wrote:Does anyone care about the results here or are we just looking at the performance and building towards a 6N and RWC double next season?

For me a performance will be results. Two massacres. And I'm not being smart or funny. If we're serious about ourselves as contenders then against Argentina (that won't even be playing their best players) we should be execting not comfortable "It'll do" wins but going for their jugular and heaping heavy hits onto them. Anything less is less a performance and a wasted Summer. Patterns of Irish play and ruthlessness must be maintained.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

Thomond wrote:Sure Keatley is shoite and JJ is better then him......

Quiet frankly both are better than madigan.

only in the mind of a munster man

And probably a certain Australian coach....

ME-109 wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

Thomond wrote:Sure Keatley is shoite and JJ is better then him......

Quiet frankly both are better than madigan.

only in the mind of a munster man

And probably a certain Australian coach....

unfortunately

rodders wrote:Does anyone care about the results here or are we just looking at the performance and building towards a 6N and RWC double next season?

i think you have to be looking for all of the above. we will be playing a weakened Arg team so i would expect 2 good wins, new combinations worked on and good performances.

ME-109 wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

Thomond wrote:Sure Keatley is shoite and JJ is better then him......

Quiet frankly both are better than madigan.

only in the mind of a munster man

And probably a certain Australian coach....

I wonder how that certain coach would rate himself? I'd guess it's a good few notches above where I'd place him. Down with these foreign coaches, I say. Leinster should just shift Cullen from forwards coach to the main deal.

I don't know I'll be watching to see if whoever wears the hallowed 13 jersey is BOD incarnate and whether or not the number 1 and 3 do a folding deckchair impression. Everything else is a bonus.

It's all about the web ellis trophy for me....

...and whether or not Zebo wears white ankle socks or not of course.

rodders wrote:Does anyone care about the results here or are we just looking at the performance and building towards a 6N and RWC double next season?

Well... if we lose that would indicate that the performance was poor because we have the stronger team and Argentina are likely to be without their European based 'star' players. Last year a second-string England side put some massive scores on them.

Winning both games I think has to be the aim.

web ellis will require the socks...even if only used in high tempo ruck hitting training sessions

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:Does anyone care about the results here or are we just looking at the performance and building towards a 6N and RWC double next season?

Well... if we lose that would indicate that the performance was poor because we have the stronger team and Argentina are likely to be without their European based 'star' players. Last year a second-string England side put some massive scores on them.

Winning both games I think has to be the aim.

In which case winning well with our second string should be ours....   

This is the last chance to experiment against a tier 1 side. We need to be targeting a clean sweep in the autumn and winning the 6N so there is only the Georgia game to play with.

This will be last chance Saloon for a few guys regarding the RWC squad and a huge opportunity for Zebo, Cave, Luke Marshall and Madigan in particular because you get the impression that Schmidt is not entirely convinced by any of these guys.

I have a feeling the pack and half backs are already 99% pencilled in bar injuries but a couple of outside back positions are up for grabs.

[quote="rodders"][quote="Notch"]

rodders wrote:

This will be last chance Saloon for a few guys regarding the RWC squad and a huge opportunity for Zebo, Cave, Luke Marshall and Madigan in particular because you get the impression that Schmidt is not entirely convinced by any of these guys.

Poor Darren Cave, his first chance is his last chance