Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Not exactly a ringing endorsement for life or money in Ireland camp that the guy should ship out so early, considering that Ireland have realistic ambitions to be a contention side in the next few years, and the WC is just around the corner.

Oh well, he'll have learned a bit about Irish players, sensibilities and how Schmidt operates during his time ....  spy work accomplished

Far more likely that he probably doesn't see eye-to-eye with Schmidt. When you have already been a head coach, its very hard to have to do what your told by someone else. I'd say Schmidt is hard going as well.

On the contrary, I'd say its far more likely when the opportunity to go to NZ popped up he took it so his young family can be close to his parents.

I don't really buy these reasons though, Notch.  Afterall, if that reason was high on his agenda now, the coming to Ireland wouldn't have happened in the first place.  On such occasions the sentimental stuff I generally accept on a purely customary and courtesy level but I rarely in truth buy it.  Yes, he got an offer he didn't want to refuse for his own personal reasons but I'd really assume those reasons are much more professional than family.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Not exactly a ringing endorsement for life or money in Ireland camp that the guy should ship out so early, considering that Ireland have realistic ambitions to be a contention side in the next few years, and the WC is just around the corner.

Oh well, he'll have learned a bit about Irish players, sensibilities and how Schmidt operates during his time ....  spy work accomplished

Far more likely that he probably doesn't see eye-to-eye with Schmidt. When you have already been a head coach, its very hard to have to do what your told by someone else. I'd say Schmidt is hard going as well.

On the contrary, I'd say its far more likely when the opportunity to go to NZ popped up he took it so his young family can be close to his parents.

He left NZ in 1992 - its taken some time to get back  

edit: He went looking to move:

Boyd confirmed his old mate had called him shortly after Cardiff-bound Hammett said he would not be reapplying.

"He called and asked if I was putting my name in the hat. I said I was and he said he wouldn't stand against me and would like to work with me again and that was that," Boyd said.

Sin é wrote:http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/10109490/Boyd-Plumtree-take-the-reins

He is Forwards Coach with the Canes. They have lots of world class players fly!

Boyd, Plumtree take the reins
TOBY ROBSON

Chris Boyd and John Plumtree are back together and on a mission close to their hearts.

Boyd will replace Mark Hammett as Hurricanes head coach next season with Plumtree dramatically pulling stumps early on his role as Ireland's assistant coach to return to Wellington.

Ah...so I was right in the first place, Plumtree didn't mind being a coaching underling afterall.

Depends who he was a coaching underling to, wouldn't you say?

Maybe...but that wasn't your initial argument. You simply said it's tough for a one time head coach to get comfortable being a number two or three again.

"When you have already been a head coach, its very hard to have to do what you're told by someone else."

But don't worry about it too much, Sin. That's just me pedantically biting you again, innit

He has worked with Boyd for a long time, so he obviously gets on well with him. Who knows, maybe he will only last a year back in NZ (bearing in mind its a long, long time since he has lived there).

I imagine Rodney Ah You will get a start now.

I'd like to see for the first test

1) Dave Kilcoyne
2) Rory Best
3) Rodney Ah You
4) Iain Henderson
5) Paul O'Connell
6) Robbie Diack
7) Chris Henry
8) Jamie Heaslip
9) Conor Murray
10) Johnny Sexton
11) Simon Zebo
12) Luke Marshall
13) Darren Cave
14) Andrew Trimble
15) Rob Kearney

16) Damien Varley 17) James Cronin 18) Mike Ross 19) Devin Toner 20) Jordi Murphy 21) Kieran Marmion 22) Ian Madigan 23) Fergus McFadden

The second test will look more familiar and more Leinster boys back, Kilcoyne and Diack etc. will drop from the team.

Rodney Ah You   

profitius wrote:Rodney Ah You   

If he plays well we'll all be like 'Ah You of little faith!'

He should be alright against the Argie pack but I'm not exactly going mental about him as a back-up going into the World Cup

Notch wrote:

profitius wrote:Rodney Ah You   

If he plays well we'll all be like 'Ah You of little faith!'

He should be alright against the Argie pack but I'm not exactly going mental about him as a back-up going into the World Cup

Its not his ability that I have a problem with. Its this bizarre idea of getting mercenaries to play for Ireland. I'd rather one of the Ulster props or Ronan Loughney.

Rodney Ah No!

Ah You gotta be kidding me??
Ah You a mercenary?  
Ain't Payne a mercenary-in-waiting though too?
Ah Payne in the Ass will be his Mercenary title when he puts on his green shirt.

I just constantly lament that Ah Isa (correction: Ice Ah) never got a chance to play for us in his military fatigues.

Has there been any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes? Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach! This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

chewed_mintie wrote:Has there been any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes?  Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach!  This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

I think a few people in Ireland might deem it (Plumtree's exit) a little 'rapid fire'  - given that's he just walked in the door and WC just around the corner.  His sense of where he'd commit to mustn't have been all that strong if he was so readily waiting for the moment (and opportunity) to shoot back home.  Perhaps if he had secretly and personally felt so flighty, it might have been wiser for him to turn down the Irish role and simply wait-out an opportunity to return to New Zealand.

But yes, it seems ultimately appropriate that he's seen the chance to get back home now and it's always nice to see a coach or player from anywhere jumping at a chance to finally return to his homeland. It's nice to see that lure still there in such an increasingly cold and clinical professional world.  So good luck to him on that front....but I guest he did leave us pretty suddenly in a lurch that Schmidt probably didn't have too much pre-emptive knowledge of.  We'll see who Schmidt can replace him with before deciding whether Plumtree will be on any future Christmas card list or not

chewed_mintie wrote:Has there been any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes?  Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach!  This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

Just caught it yesterday. Really disappointing because our forwards showed a massive improvement this season, in fact it was probably the reason we won the 6N.How much of this was down to Pumtree? You'd have to imagine quite a bit and it leaves us in a sticky spot with the RWC only a year away.

rodders wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:Has there been any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes?  Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach!  This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

Just caught it yesterday. Really disappointing because our forwards showed a massive improvement this season, in fact it was probably the reason we won the 6N.How much of this was down to Pumtree? You'd have to imagine quite a bit and it leaves us in a sticky spot with the RWC only a year away.

I'd put a lot of the improvement down to the return of Paul O'Connell to the pack. Most players look better when he is playing and they all lift their game as well. Toner was a world beater in the 6 Nations. Munster have been using the maul very effectively long before Plumtree arrived (Quins last year, Ulster at the start of the season).

So?  Paul will move into a player/coaching role now with Ireland to fill the Plumtree gap?

SecretFly wrote:So?  Paul will move into a player/coaching role now with Ireland to fill the Plumtree gap?

No, just keep him playing. Peter O'Mahony didn't learn how to turn over ball like he did in the 6Ns from Plumtree.

So no Plumtree replacement required and Plumtree was a passenger anyway?

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:Has there been any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes?  Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach!  This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

Just caught it yesterday. Really disappointing because our forwards showed a massive improvement this season, in fact it was probably the reason we won the 6N.How much of this was down to Pumtree? You'd have to imagine quite a bit and it leaves us in a sticky spot with the RWC only a year away.

I'd put a lot of the improvement down to the return of Paul O'Connell to the pack. Most players look better when he is playing and they all lift their game as well. Toner was a world beater in the 6 Nations. Munster have been using the maul very effectively long before Plumtree arrived (Quins last year, Ulster at the start of the season).

So Kidney and Smal were deliberately making our forwards shoite then because its a long time since we used a rolling maul or had a strong set piece?

Scrum and lineout improved 200% this year - the only significant changes in personnel being Schmidt, Plumtree, Toner and Martin Moore so someone one of these guys has to be responsible - if not all of them....

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:Has there been any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes?  Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach!  This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

Just caught it yesterday. Really disappointing because our forwards showed a massive improvement this season, in fact it was probably the reason we won the 6N.How much of this was down to Pumtree? You'd have to imagine quite a bit and it leaves us in a sticky spot with the RWC only a year away.

I'd put a lot of the improvement down to the return of Paul O'Connell to the pack. Most players look better when he is playing and they all lift their game as well. Toner was a world beater in the 6 Nations. Munster have been using the maul very effectively long before Plumtree arrived (Quins last year, Ulster at the start of the season).

So Kidney and Smal were deliberately making our forwards shoite then because its a long time since we used a rolling maul or had a strong set piece?

Scrum and lineout improved 200% this year - the only significant changes in personnel being Schmidt, Plumtree, Toner and Martin Moore so someone one of these guys has to be responsible - if not all of them....

That would be due to the fact that Paul O'Connell has been missing from both the Ireland and Munster pack for the best part of 2 years through injury - that is why the setpiece has improved so much since he has come back.

Ireland did have SOB there all along, but POM has come of age internationally the season just gone.

edit: as well as when POC was out, our next best lock D Ryan was carrying an injury.

Could be Sin - we'll find out next season anyways....

Looking forward to this tour now and seeing how whoever gets the nod in midfield goes. Hopefully Cave can shine and also keen to see what Zebo can do out here to put pressure on Bowe and Kearney.

Listening to O'Connor it sounds like D'arcy may play 13 next year - now maybe he is trying to wind up Schmidt up or else its the Irish 12 jersey that's up for grabs and not 13?.....

It's surprising how quickly it happens - the blink of an eye - but with all the new movement of positions brought about by the vacant 13, and all the new blood players matured now and looking for fair chances, Bowe is in a real no-man's land that he'll find it difficult to push himself back into contention for any place, nevermind the wing.
Not so long ago the darling of Irish rugby and now probably very worried. Rugby - you blink sometimes and it's a whole new world before you realise it.

Hmm I think Bowe's place is under threat in terms of not being an automatic pick for the XV when not fully fit - Kidney would have picked him on one leg...

I think people shouldn't forget that he played 2 lions tests and put in a handful of star turns for Ulster this year and looked really sharp at times. He's been overshadowed by Trimble and dogged by injury but definitely he isn't yesterdays man.

You could apply the same logic to O'Brien and even Donnacha Ryan. These are proven top international class players and will be on the RWC plane (or ferry) if fit I believe.

Bowe is at a make or break point I would agree though - next season will prove if he's on the slide or just unlucky with injury.

All coaches seem to love Bowe, so I reckon he will be in there somewhere, though I don't think he was at his best on the Lions (or since then).

Earls & Bowe (even though neither have actually played for Schmidt) seem to be his two favourites though.

PS - and he likes Luke Fitz a lot as well.

Sin é wrote:All coaches seem to love Bowe, so I reckon he will be in there somewhere, though I don't think he was at his best on the Lions (or since then).

Earls & Bowe (even though neither have actually played for Schmidt) seem to be his two favourites though.

PS - and he likes Luke Fitz a lot as well.

Can you expand on that one, Sin?

I think Fitz is out of the picture at this stage to be honest - has barely played since 2009. Harsh but I'd be shocked to see him in the RWC squad.

Notice that he wasn't even mentioned by O'Connor re: the 13 jersey at Leinster - if you take his comments that he rates Kirchener in the back 3 and his love for McFadden that leaves Luke out in the cold at Leinster never mind Ireland.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:All coaches seem to love Bowe, so I reckon he will be in there somewhere, though I don't think he was at his best on the Lions (or since then).

Earls & Bowe (even though neither have actually played for Schmidt) seem to be his two favourites though.

PS - and he likes Luke Fitz a lot as well.

Can you expand on that one, Sin?

Just the way he talks about them. They always make the squads, even if they are not fully fit. Joe on Earls yesterday:

"The one thing that won't change is that he [Earls] still retains that ability and he's still selectable in the future," Schmidt said. "We'd like to get to get him in sooner rather than later because we'd like to have a rhythm playing with the team. He's a great kid as well. We want to do what's best for him."

rodders wrote:I think Fitz is out of the picture at this stage to be honest - has barely played since 2009. Harsh but I'd be shocked to see him in the RWC squad.

It's very interesting that you bring that up, Rodders, as I was thinking about using that very topic to more fully illustrate my point about Bowe.  
I remember the two of us distinctly having a conversation about Fitz...and now that you mention it, it must have been around 2009!  I hope not or time really does fly!  
But he was freshly injured at the time and I remember saying that could very well be it for him, the last time he'll ever play - and I alluded to that idea again about how cruel and quick rugby can be as snuffing out really promising careers.  
And I think at the time you weren't having too much of my glass-half-empty gloom on it.  You said he'd be back for more and you were right...he has been back for more...... - but not much.  Not much at all.  
Thus the concern about Bowe.  He seems the kind of player who really should be a natural selection. But despite those feeling that we all have, time itself is moving fast and he might miss the train to 'a few more years' altogether.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:All coaches seem to love Bowe, so I reckon he will be in there somewhere, though I don't think he was at his best on the Lions (or since then).

Earls & Bowe (even though neither have actually played for Schmidt) seem to be his two favourites though.

PS - and he likes Luke Fitz a lot as well.

Can you expand on that one, Sin?

Just the way he talks about them. They always make the squads, even if they are not fully fit. Joe on Earls yesterday:

"The one thing that won't change is that he [Earls] still retains that ability and he's still selectable in the future," Schmidt said. "We'd like to get to get him in sooner rather than later because we'd like to have a rhythm playing with the team. He's a great kid as well. We want to do what's best for him."

I agree with him on Earls.  I really would love to see the combination of Earls and Schmidt as coach and player.  I think it could be a central relationship in a fired up Ireland attack machine.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:I think Fitz is out of the picture at this stage to be honest - has barely played since 2009. Harsh but I'd be shocked to see him in the RWC squad.

It's very interesting that you bring that up, Rodders, as I was thinking about using that very topic to more fully illustrate my point about Bowe.  
I remember the two of us distinctly having a conversation about Fitz...and now that you mention it, it must have been around 2009!  I hope not or time really does fly!  
But he was freshly injured at the time and I remember saying that could very well be it for him, the last time he'll ever play - and I alluded to that idea again about how cruel and quick rugby can be as snuffing out really promising careers.  
And I think at the time you weren't having too much of my glass-half-empty ;)gloom on it.  You said he'd be back for more and you were right...he has been back for more...... - but not much.  Not much at all.  
Thus the concern about Bowe.  He seems the kind of player who really should be a natural selection.  But despite those feeling that we all have, time itself is moving fast and he might miss the train to 'a few more years' altogether.

I've always rated Fitz as a player - I thought he was the best back in the country on form for a brief period in early 2012 when Kidney omitted him from the 6N squad.

He has been out a long time now and his injury record is second only to poor Stevie Ferris...

He can come back, I just think he's starting at the bottom - trying to get a run fro Leinster- and way down the frame fro Ireland with the likes of Trimble, Bowe, Zebo, Kearney, Gilroy, McFadden..etc. it's a long way back.,

Bowe and Earls (who I'm not a great fan off) have been active and produced close to their best in the recent past. For me they are well in the frame but Bowe at 30 needs a big season next year to prove he is still numero uno wing in Ireland... because in truth he's slipping into 3rd/4th spot at the minute. His track record eclipses everyone else still though so you can't write him off.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:Has there been

any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes?  Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach!  This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

Just caught it yesterday. Really disappointing because our forwards showed a massive improvement this season, in fact it was probably the reason we won the 6N.How much of this was down to Pumtree? You'd have to imagine quite a bit and it leaves us in a sticky spot with the RWC only a year away.

I'd put a lot of the improvement down to the return of Paul O'Connell to the pack. Most players look better when he is playing and they all lift their game as well. Toner was a world beater in the 6 Nations. Munster have been using the maul very effectively long before Plumtree arrived (Quins last year, Ulster at the start of the season).

Of course you would,ignoring that we were very average in the forwards from 2010-2013 with and without PoC.He's a great player but our pack haven't ever been as strong as they were this year,it's good coaching that made the difference just like so many on here told you it would.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:Has there been

any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes?  Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach!  This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

Just caught it yesterday. Really disappointing because our forwards showed a massive improvement this season, in fact it was probably the reason we won the 6N.How much of this was down to Pumtree? You'd have to imagine quite a bit and it leaves us in a sticky spot with the RWC only a year away.

I'd put a lot of the improvement down to the return of Paul O'Connell to the pack. Most players look better when he is playing and they all lift their game as well. Toner was a world beater in the 6 Nations. Munster have been using the maul very effectively long before Plumtree arrived (Quins last year, Ulster at the start of the season).

Of course you would,ignoring that we were very average in the forwards from 2010-2013 with and without PoC.He's a great player but our pack haven't ever been as strong as they were this year,it's good coaching that made the difference just like so many on here told you it would.

Well, I disagree with you. The scrum was a big problem for us until Ross & Healy stepped up to the plate (and the laws were changed again which now suits us a bit better).

David Wallace was a major loss (prior to 2011 world cup), but SOB filled that hole (just as POM has stepped up when he got injured).

The lineout is way better since POC has come back and is calling it. (Remember the comments about Best on the Lions Tour - his throwing was awful without POC calling the lineout).

Schmidt should look to get Penney on board maybe - he is an excellent coach and he will only be working 6 months of the year in Japan.

One of Ireland's best performances was against the ABs in the autumn. Plumtree would have been coaching them for about a week at that stage.   

The elephant in the room re forward selection for me is whilst most would agree that SOB, Heaslip and POM are our best three backrowers the backrower looked more effective with Henry at 7.
Schmidt is known to be a big admirer of Henry - I think it is far from a foregone conclusion who will be the one losing out when all 4 are available .

Sin é wrote:

Schmidt should look to get Penney on board maybe - he is an excellent coach and he will only be working 6 months of the year in Japan.

You might be right there.  It would certainly be another little wake-up day for the snoozin' rugby journalists.  "Hey guys, wake up!! Before he's gone, he's actually back!"  
There are a number of big issues that would bury the idea though.  
Number One - Penney seems an honourable man who wouldn't want to rock any boats with his new bosses so soon after coming on. board.  
Number Two - Japan, Europe, Japan, Europe, Europe, Back to Japan...hmmmm....... he ain't getting any younger, old Penney, and plane hopping wouldn't be all that inviting a prospect.  
Thirdly - and most important one: no self respecting former Head Coach with Munster would go off and immediately fall into line as a lesser coach under a previous Leinster Head Coach.  It just wouldn't happen, Sin. There are Ancient Irish tribal laws against such displays of servitude.

I'd say they go back further than Mun v Lein. Probably go back to Blues v Crusaders   

Anyway, I doubt they would see eye-to-eye after POCgate.

Sin é wrote:I'd say they go back further than Mun v Lein. Probably go back to Blues v Crusaders   

Anyway, I doubt they would see eye-to-eye after POCgate.

All the more reason why it might be a seismic mix in the lead in to the WC. Munster Leinster tensions in players and coaches - could only bring out the best F**K You World! attitude in the team. Not a bad idea at all Sin.... I must write another of my "put it in the bin" letters to the IRFU and suggest it

We need a forwards specialist, Penney doesn't fit the bill. We should be sounding out ASM over compensation for Jono Gibbes to see if that is a realistic option.

Looking froward to team news etc. The team has arrived over in Buenos Aires where they will be based and then I think tomorrow the preparations start.

Watching the Barbarians game, the scrum-half Cubelli looks like an extremely useful player. Nippy round the fringes, quick and skilful. It was a shame to see Hernandez and Leguizamon play for the Barbarians but not be available for these tests! If they are rested fair enough, but then you see them playing 80 minutes in an exhibition game on the other side of the world and think why couldn't they have just had that one game in their national side?

Notch wrote:We need a forwards specialist, Penney doesn't fit the bill.

Penney might not fit the bill, but to claim he isn't a forwards specialist is just not true. This is the bloke who Kieran Read credited with being his most influential coach and took the coaching responsibility for the Munster scrum last year! He is also a former No. 8 and coached Canterbury to 4 in a row ITM titles. Crickey, even Peter Borlase looked like a decent prop when coached by him.

Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:Has there been

any reaction in Ireland to John Plumtree leaving his post to return home to the Hurricanes?  Personally, I’m glad he’s coming back just wish he was head coach and not forwards coach!  This obviously leaves Ireland in the lurch though…wonder what Schmidt is thinking?

Just caught it yesterday. Really disappointing because our forwards showed a massive improvement this season, in fact it was probably the reason we won the 6N.How much of this was down to Pumtree? You'd have to imagine quite a bit and it leaves us in a sticky spot with the RWC only a year away.

I'd put a lot of the improvement down to the return of Paul O'Connell to the pack. Most players look better when he is playing and they all lift their game as well. Toner was a world beater in the 6 Nations. Munster have been using the maul very effectively long before Plumtree arrived (Quins last year, Ulster at the start of the season).

Of course you would,ignoring that we were very average in the forwards from 2010-2013 with and without PoC.He's a great player but our pack haven't ever been as strong as they were this year,it's good coaching that made the difference just like so many on here told you it would.

Well, I disagree with you. The scrum was a big problem for us until Ross & Healy stepped up to the plate (and the laws were changed again which now suits us a bit better).

David Wallace was a major loss (prior to 2011 world cup), but SOB filled that hole (just as POM has stepped up when he got injured).

The lineout is way better since POC has come back and is calling it. (Remember the comments about Best on the Lions Tour - his throwing was awful without POC calling the lineout).

Schmidt should look to get Penney on board maybe - he is an excellent coach and he will only be working 6 months of the year in Japan.

One of Ireland's best performances was against the ABs in the autumn. Plumtree would have been coaching them for about a week at that stage.   

If that's correct then it just goes to show what a bad job the previous management group did with the forwards,after all the forwards (including PoC)were poor the week before against Oz so he must have made a huge difference.

Notch wrote:Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

He coached Munster to 2 HC semi finals you know and a he managed to make the Rabo playoffs this year.This is stark contrast to the criticism he gives Schmidt every chance he gets based mainly it seems on the fact that around 10 years ago Carlos Spencer left the Auckland Blues the year after Schmidt became assistant coach there.He's a very balanced poster is our Sin.

Notch wrote:Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

We need someone good on the breakdown! We already have a good lineout and maul.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

We need someone good on the breakdown! We already have a good lineout and maul.

Joe would specialise on the breakdown. We have a good lineout and maul largely because of the work of Plumtree, the work he did with us in that regard was fantastic, so we'll want someone to keep that going.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

He coached Munster to 2 HC semi finals you know and a he managed to make the Rabo playoffs this year.This is stark contrast to the criticism he gives Schmidt every chance he gets based mainly it seems on the fact that around 10 years ago Carlos Spencer left the Auckland Blues the year after Schmidt became assistant coach there.He's a very balanced poster is our Sin.

No getting away frrom it though - Spencer lost form when Schmidt became his coach at the Blues and the Blues have won nothing since. He inheritated a winning team (they had just won Super Rugby), they didn't lose any players of renown.

That explains why he's been so underwhelming since leaving the Blues.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

We need someone good on the breakdown! We already have a good lineout and maul.

Joe would specialise on the breakdown. We have a good lineout and maul largely because of the work of Plumtree, the work he did with us in that regard was fantastic, so we'll want someone to keep that going.

I know its a painful memory for you and you may have blanked it out of your mind, but do you not remember Ulster's embarrassing efforts trying to nullify Munster's maul in Ravenhill?

Notch wrote:That explains why he's been so underwhelming since leaving the Blues.

The Blues have been fairly underwhelming since Schmidt became their backs coach (having won the title the year before he started coaching them).

He must be really bad if the effects are still being felt seven years after he left!

Notch wrote:He must be really bad if the effects are still being felt seven years after he left!

Yep. The Blues couldn't wait to see the back of him (and Nucifora).