Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:He must be really bad if the effects are still being felt seven years after he left!

Yep. The Blues couldn't wait to see the back of him (and Nucifora).

And seven years later they're still waiting for his ghost to feck off too? When is the curse of Joe going to lift, Sin? That's the main question. When does the curse of Joe lift after he leaves?

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

He coached Munster to 2 HC semi finals you know and a he managed to make the Rabo playoffs this year.This is stark contrast to the criticism he gives Schmidt every chance he gets based mainly it seems on the fact that around 10 years ago Carlos Spencer left the Auckland Blues the year after Schmidt became assistant coach there.He's a very balanced poster is our Sin.

No getting away frrom it though - Spencer lost form when Schmidt became his coach at the Blues and the Blues have won nothing since. He inheritated a winning team (they had just won Super Rugby), they didn't lose any players of renown.

It must be nice for you to blame an assistant coach for a teams problems.You can pin the Irish teams recent failure on Kiss and Smal instead of identifying the guy who oversaw the operation.

You can't get away from the fact that Schmidt was assistant coach,that the Spencer thing was over 10 years ago and that every season Schmidt has been a head coach his team has won at least one trophy.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

He coached Munster to 2 HC semi finals you know and a he managed to make the Rabo playoffs this year.This is stark contrast to the criticism he gives Schmidt every chance he gets based mainly it seems on the fact that around 10 years ago Carlos Spencer left the Auckland Blues the year after Schmidt became assistant coach there.He's a very balanced poster is our Sin.

No getting away frrom it though - Spencer lost form when Schmidt became his coach at the Blues and the Blues have won nothing since. He inheritated a winning team (they had just won Super Rugby), they didn't lose any players of renown.

It must be nice for you to blame an assistant coach for a teams problems.You can pin the Irish teams recent failure on Kiss and Smal instead of identifying the guy who oversaw the operation.

You can't get away from the fact that Schmidt was assistant coach,that the Spencer thing was over 10 years ago and that every season Schmidt has been a head coach his team has won at least one trophy.

The Kiwis hold Schmidt responsible for Spencer's & the Blue's demise. I suppose you will now start claiming that they weren't happy about seeing the back of Nacifora as well.

Sin, you're leaving a lot of logic behind you to get to your point.  Don't miss the logic, that's the bit that bites in these games.

Your oft told case:  Schmidt, Spencer, Blues.  Unhappy mix.  Bad times.  Spencer leaves.  Schmidt responsible.  Blues collapse.  Blues never, ever regain traction to this day.  Tears all round in New Zealand.  New Zealand gunning for Joe to this day.  Effigies of him burned every year on Spence Day (the fateful day Spencer left the Blues).

Hmmm....................... then the logic.

The logic is that Blues must be one of the best self-foot-shot specialists in the game of choosing coaches given they're still choosing coaches who are just like Joe and who can't drag them up out of their Joe Slump all of seven years after he dashed off to Europe.

The logic hints that if'n things ain't fixed up by now after the train crash coaching of Schmidt all those years ago then it's most probable that he wasn't the issue at all and the problem sits somewhere in the heart of the Blues club itself.

In other words -  The Blues and the Kiwis are wrong.  Don't always take the Kiwi word for Gospel, Sin.  Question the faith now and then.  Call their bluff now and then when they overkill history to excuse the present.  Afterall, you have no qualms questioning Joe the Kiwi, have you?  

Schmidt's track record has been unbelievable for the past number of years. Anyone who has worked with him has said nothing but good things from Leinster, Clermont, Ireland (last few coaching jobs accumulating quite a few years).

I'd like to think Jono Gibbes will be called in if possible, other than that I'm not sure what forwards coaches are available.....Nick Mallet? I genuinely haven't a clue.

Still gutted that Henshaw and Moore are out they were the players I was most excited about this tour in terms of our development.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes yes, the sun shines out of his hole we know- but we want someone to specialise in lineout and maul.

He coached Munster to 2 HC semi finals you know and a he managed to make the Rabo playoffs this year.This is stark contrast to the criticism he gives Schmidt every chance he gets based mainly it seems on the fact that around 10 years ago Carlos Spencer left the Auckland Blues the year after Schmidt became assistant coach there.He's a very balanced poster is our Sin.

No getting away frrom it though - Spencer lost form when Schmidt became his coach at the Blues and the Blues have won nothing since. He inheritated a winning team (they had just won Super Rugby), they didn't lose any players of renown.

It must be nice for you to blame an assistant coach for a teams problems.You can pin the Irish teams recent failure on Kiss and Smal instead of identifying the guy who oversaw the operation.

You can't get away from the fact that Schmidt was assistant coach,that the Spencer thing was over 10 years ago and that every season Schmidt has been a head coach his team has won at least one trophy.

The Kiwis hold Schmidt responsible for Spencer's  & the Blue's demise. I suppose you will now start claiming that they weren't happy about seeing the back of Nacifora as well.

What Kiwi's are these,there was one journalist who made a single line in an article that could be interpreted that way.Show me a few more people who blame Scmhidt,maybe start a poll on this site and see what the Kiwis here have to say.You're spoofing like usual.

Schmidt left Blues 7 years ago to blame him for their continued lack of success is laughable.

As an aside they have made 2 playoffs in the last 10 years and one of those was under Schmidt in his lasy year there

Anyone know when the team is announced?

I'd be guessing Thursday or Friday myself.

Will be really interested in seeing the make up of the frontrow and the back 3.

geoff998rugby wrote:Schmidt left Blues 7 years ago to blame him for their continued lack of success is laughable.

As an aside they have made 2 playoffs in the last 10 years and one of those was under Schmidt in his lasy year there

It's akin to blaming whoever replaced Schmidt at Clermont for their lack of success,after all they have won nothing since he Schmidt left.

Careful.... our Scottish friends are listening.   

Well I don't know, I still blame Deccie for us not beating the ABs in november and England at Twickenham so maybe sin has a point.

Going on Sinéology graphs and figures...that means the Deccie effect will take us all the way past another disappointing WC knockout and all the way to 2020 before we might see any tentative buds of improvement.

JoeDelayedResonanceDynamics (JDRD) in rugby is a real performance resistance scourge and should be seriously looked at by the IRB.

Put it this way - Schmidt was responsible for changing the style of play of the Blues to a less successful one (by dropping Spencer). Up to that period, the Blues/Auckland were the dominant team in NZ.

Schmidt does not like mercurial/unpredictable talents like Spencer or Madigan.

Bearing in mind that Clermont lost more finals with Schmidt than without him, the one Top 14 win might be considered a fluke.

rodders wrote:Well I don't know, I still blame Deccie for us not beating the ABs in november and England at Twickenham so maybe sin has a point.

I see where POC was quoting Kidney at the press conference on Sunday/yesterday   

Sin é wrote:Put it this way - Schmidt was responsible for changing the style of play of the Blues to a less successful one (by dropping Spencer). Up to that period, the Blues/Auckland were the dominant team in NZ.

It's past that period where you're running into quicksand, Sin.  Who is responsible for the after-effects - all seven years of them?

Schmidt does not like mercurial/unpredictable talents like Spencer or Madigan.

 Earls is as predictable a talent as they come?  A workhorse with a certain few gaits that he never veers from when attempting glory runs?  Schmidt 'likes Earls'.  Maybe it's the accent and down to earth haircut

Bearing in mind that Clermont lost more finals with Schmidt than without him, the one Top 14 win might be considered a fluke.

Bearing in mind that Ireland lost more games with Kidney than without him............................................. Grandslam.............. fluke?

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Well I don't know, I still blame Deccie for us not beating the ABs in november and England at Twickenham so maybe sin has a point.

I see where POC was quoting Kidney at the press conference on Sunday/yesterday   

He was also saying how much Plumtree brought to the Irish team. That Paulie...he always let's you down with that loose cannon mouth of his.

Sin é wrote:
Schmidt does not like mercurial/unpredictable talents like Spencer or Madigan.

Well he seems to like Bestie and his line out throwing is as unpredictable as they come.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Schmidt does not like mercurial/unpredictable talents like Spencer or Madigan.

Well he seems to like Bestie and his line out throwing is as unpredictable as they come.

Too true. He also like Rob Kearney. And we all know how he mixes the sublime with the over-back ploughing-a-furrow ridiculous.

Bearing in mind that Ireland lost more games with Kidney than without him............................................. Grandslam.............. fluke?[/quote]

Naaaaa that GS was an EOS hangover, flip all to do with numbnuts Dekkie

Pete330v2 wrote:Bearing in mind that Ireland lost more games with Kidney than without him............................................. Grandslam.............. fluke?

Naaaaa that GS was an EOS hangover, flip all to do with numbnuts Dekkie [/quote]

A positive JDRD effect? Yeah, that's possible in Sinéology theory

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Schmidt does not like mercurial/unpredictable talents like Spencer or Madigan.

Well he seems to like Bestie and his line out throwing is as unpredictable as they come.

Cronin is even more unpredictable.   

[quote="SecretFly"]

Sin é wrote:Put it this way - Schmidt was responsible for changing the style of play of the Blues to a less successful one (by dropping Spencer). Up to that period, the Blues/Auckland were the dominant team in NZ.

It's past that period where you're running into quicksand, Sin.  Who is responsible for the after-effects - all seven years of them?[quote]

I said he changed the style. Not so easy to unring a bell!

 Earls is as predictable a talent as they come?  A workhorse with a certain few gaits that he never veers from when attempting glory runs?  Schmidt 'likes Earls'.  Maybe it's the accent and down to earth haircut

He can tolerate a mercurial talent out in the backs, not his flyhalf though. Think of it like this - he wouldn't pick Contempomi at 10.

Bearing in mind that Clermont lost more finals with Schmidt than without him, the one Top 14 win might be considered a fluke.

Bearing in mind that Ireland lost more games with Kidney than without him............................................. Grandslam.............. fluke?

It early days yet for Schmidt with Ireland. He has yet to beat a SH team - hopefully a win in Argentina will that redress that 33% winning record against SH opposition.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Well I don't know, I still blame Deccie for us not beating the ABs in november and England at Twickenham so maybe sin has a point.

I see where POC was quoting Kidney at the press conference on Sunday/yesterday   

He was also saying how much Plumtree brought to the Irish team.  That Paulie...he always let's you down with that loose cannon mouth of his.

I suppose you have to say something about him when someone sticks a mike under your nose and asks you what do you think.

Thought it was cool the way he worked Deccie into the discussion though. Deccie, althought out of sight, isn't out of mind yet!    

on a sad note ferris confirms his retirement

You can't replace what Ferris brings to a team unless we can disquise a formula 1 bulldozer as a player

With the news that Plumbtree is leaving is there any news of us getting a replacement?

What can you say about Ferris? Shakespearian tragedy in professional career terms. Had such destructive physical power and yet seems blighted by a peculiar and ironic vulnerability to injury.
You might say he attracted injury with his unbridled style of play but I just think fortune didn't work for him where it might have worked for many more equally physical players.

A real pity that he had to retire. Best of luck to him in whatever he does now.

Sin é wrote:

I suppose you have to say something about him when someone sticks a mike under your nose and asks you what do you think.

I knew that would be your response Sin...because........... because, well - it always is. Paulie says things he wants to say (mainly and mostly about Deccie) and then he says other things 'cause the mike is in his face. Paulie needs to be less abstract and tell us when he doesn't mean the things he says: "Since you've asked me about Plumtree, and since I'll have to meet up with him a little later as part of training, let me tell you this in all honesty, and I don't mean a word of it okay - Plumtree is a darlin' of a man, a pure genius as a coach and a bit of craic character that we'll all miss."

Actually, POC's comments on Plumtree are revealing:

"He's a fairly laid-back guy and very experienced - he was great. It helped me to be able to share ideas and discuss ideas with him so the disruption is just trying to find someone of similar calibre to replace him with, with the World Cup looming."

Opposite to Schmidt, perhaps?

Yeah...Plumtree was the antidote to Raving Lunatic Joe.  But Joe likes that dynamic - good cop, bad cop, children in corners afraid to speak (POC and the boys ).  Order, disciplin, obedience, loyalty, subjugation.  That's the path to success, Sin. Fear!

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Put it this way - Schmidt was responsible for changing the style of play of the Blues to a less successful one (by dropping Spencer). Up to that period, the Blues/Auckland were the dominant team in NZ.

It's past that period where you're running into quicksand, Sin.  Who is responsible for the after-effects - all seven years of them?

I said he changed the style. Not so easy to unring a bell!

Why not,if Schmidt could change the style surely someone else could change it again.I mean are you saying that Joe Schmidt is one of the only coaches in world rugby capable of changing a teams style in a short space of time?

Even Eddie O'Sullivan can't unring a bell!

 

rodders wrote:Even Eddie O'Sullivan can't unring a bell!

 

Sin é wrote:
I said he changed the style. Not so easy to unring a bell!

But so easy to stop a bell ringing.

whats the deal Sin. why do you dislike schmidt so much?

He's not from Munster and he once suggested that PoC should be cited after kicking David Kearney in the head and leaving him in hospital for a night.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:whats the deal Sin. why do you dislike schmidt so much?

It's nothing personal. Just business. The game...the game...it must go on. Munster v Leinster is a bloodline sport - it doesn't have an off switch. It never ends. Never.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:whats the deal Sin. why do you dislike schmidt so much?

I don't dislike Schmidt. In fact he seems to be personally charming.

There are somethings which I think he is a bit two faced about and I'm not impressed with how he has dealt with Zebo.
He is a very conservative coach and I find it disheartening that there seems to be little space for any flair in his team.

Thats the strangest thing of all- there's such a massive discontent between that and the reality of the kind of rugby the teams he has coached play. His teams have always played rugby that is very easy on the eye.

With Schmidt flair is part of the process not something that overtakes the process.

Someone on the Leinster/Glasgow thread mentioned the number of Glasgow offloads in the game.  They were impressed.  And it was certainly an entertaining aspect of the game.
But Schmidt with Leinster seemed to have kept tight control on the flashy stuff to make sure the players realised it wasn't about individual moments of brilliance but about using instances of brilliance to assist the team, to 'make your teammates look good' as he put it rather than taking individual moments for personal glory.

Leinster teams under Schmidt conservative?  Hmm, when he was with them, they were clearly marked out in Europe as the most complete side and the most spectacular (as in making rugby a spectacle in Europe)  Clermont were the challengers to that crown in the period but Leinster have the 2 Schmidt HECs.  So, it's gotta be more than bells and offloads, it has to be dogged and disciplined.

Sin é wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:whats the deal Sin. why do you dislike schmidt so much?

I don't dislike Schmidt. In fact he seems to be personally charming.

There are somethings which I think he is a bit two faced about and I'm not impressed with how he has dealt with Zebo.
He is a very conservative coach and I find it disheartening that there seems to be little space for any flair in his team.

so its down to Zebo not playing in the 6 nations. in terms of the flair topic i totally disagree. do you not feel while in charge of leinster they played extremely attractive rugby? (try and forget it was leinster playing and envisage any other team)

Schmidt's Leinster side played some of the most aesthetically pleasing rugby I have ever seen...   

As for flair... he didn't seem to mind BOD too much.

It's a very complete style of rugby, structured and ambitious. I would not say conservative as there is a strong emphasis in finding and exploiting space in novel ways. The best thing for Ireland is the obsessive attention to detail. Thats what we've always lacked bar for a few years under O'Sullivan. We need that discipline in the coaching staff, we're not France or Fiji; a structured approach has always brought the best out of Irish teams.

Structured and ambitious are no oxymorons. You can be very structured and very attack minded. Schmidt has varied how attack minded we are depending on opposition and the situation, which I also like. I would say we'll play pretty open rugby on this tour. He wants to learn about his centre options and he's not going to get that if we play conservative rugby.

We should also be seeing two guys making their debut in the front row, which will be tough for them;

http://www.independent.ie/sport/greg-feek-aiming-to-blood-new-props-james-cronin-and-rodney-ah-you-in-argentina-30325830.html

Unpredictable/maverick Irish backline

9 P Marshall
10 Ian Humphreys
11 Simon Zebo
12 Luke Marshall
13 Ian Madigan
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Jared Payne

Take that Joe!

Minus points for Marshall over Olding!

rodders wrote:Unpredictable/maverick Irish backline

9 P Marshall
10 Ian Humphreys
11 Simon Zebo
12 Luke Marshall
13 Ian Madigan
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Jared Payne

Take that Joe!

That's a f**king Circus act, Rodders. That's a few trick ponies, jugglers and clowns. Try again.

Predictable Irish backline

9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Kearney
12 D'arcy
13 Earls
14 McFadden
15 Kearney

Yawn!

The Conservative Joe edition.  I like it... lots of frowns (Sexton, Murray, R. Kearney) and plodding advance work off the back of ruck hitting.

Notch wrote:Thats the strangest thing of all- there's such a massive discontent between that and the reality of the kind of rugby the teams he has coached play. His teams have always played rugby that is very easy on the eye.

You think Ireland were easy on the eye in the six nations?