Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

geoff998rugby wrote:The centres will be Reid and Cave

you what now? I have been away for the last 10 days....Reid????!!!! You're joking right

We're sort of down to bare bones. D'Arcy isn't on the tour, Stuart Olding and Luke Marshall are injured, McFadden is likely to be named on the wing, Cave is likely to be at 13.

That leaves it between Madigan and Reid. I would even prefer to move Cave inside one place to 12 but the absence of Earls, Henshaw and Payne make even that unlikely.

I suppose we could see

12. Cave
13. McFadden

or

12. Madigan
13. Cave

The latter would be my preferred option but the necessity of looking at certain players in other positions means we might end up with Reid.

Nope called in when Earls drop out - only Cave, Marshall and Reid in the party who are recognized centres.

Reid was called up from Emerging Ireland.
Ireland are so short a young lad from the Ulster academy - McCloskey took Reids place.

We for example only have 4 full professionals who are Irish qualfied, fit, not rested and not selected for one of the 2 teams - I suspect it is similar for Munster and Leinster

This Emerging Ireland stuff always tends to stretch us (last year was the same) and yet the onus seems to be on only us to construct a team for these mini tours with the lesser nations.
I don't seem to see any Emerging Scottish, Welsh, English or French teams doing anything over this summer or indeed last summer. I could be proven wrong on that but from where I'm standing I don't see a lot of 'assistance' from our neighbours for this big bright idea of helping out the poor Tier 2 sides. There was a lot of talk about it in the lead into the New Europe but talk seems cheap.

Anyway, what's wrong with Reid? He could prove quite tasty. Oh ye of little faith

I know Reid is one of the higher try scoring backs for Leinster in the Pro12 which considering he is behind Darcy/BOD/Macken for the season is some ask.

Just don't like his attitude and I think his defence is suspect at the Pro12 level which means seriously suspect at International Test level. Inside centre was soft defensively with Marshall there last weekend, I fear the damage that could be done with Reid filling the spot.

Realistically is Reid an option for the RWC? Nah brah!

Is Madigan? Aye yeah!

Put Madigan in at 12 for sure as that is a legitimate option going forward.

ME-109 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The centres will be Reid and Cave

you what now? I have been away for the last 10 days....Reid????!!!! You're joking right

Reid will be another one cap wonder, not bad going forward but useless in defence...shows how much down to the bare bones we are..just as well we're not up against NZ or SA

brennomac wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The centres will be Reid and Cave

you what now? I have been away for the last 10 days....Reid????!!!! You're joking right

Reid will be another one cap wonder, not bad going forward but useless in defence...shows how much down to the bare bones we are..just as well we're not up against NZ or SA

What games has Reid played in this year that has shown up his defense? I honestly don't know how good or bad his defense is as I don't think he has been tested enough...but he has been in the form of his life for Leinster this year whenever called upon and he totally deserved his call up to the Emerging squad before being called up to the full squad due to injuries.

this is a seriously interesting piece from the score.ie about Sexton-Marshall-Cave and how they played.

Cave and Sexton are the big winners in the piece but Marshall is really applauded for his decision making and long/short passing game.

All 3 really used the loop variations to good effect (there must have been 3/4 variations) picking good options a lot of the time.

http://www.thescore.ie/analysis-ireland-midfield-argentina-sexton-1507338-Jun2014/

Check it out it is really worth a read.

I'd just like to see more resourceful individualism to complement the controlled and practiced Loops though.  I sometimes sigh when I see another loop as it's beginning to look like it's compensating for a lack of individual linebreaking spark.

Argentina did some wonderful off-the-cuff creative thinking at close quarters to shift themselves past Irish defenders.  We blamed our defence and yes it was blame worthy a lot of the time but also it was just sheer inventive, genuine linebreaking attitude that sometimes got Argentina through us.

I'd like to see us instinctively (or practiced if need be *sigh*) offloading ourselves through defensive walls more and just give sides more to think about than Sexton loops.

Sexton loops aren't just Sexton loops.

1) Possibility of the second receiver carrying himself (Cave v Arg, Marshall v Scot 2013)
2) Doing it off a screen play so 13 gets the ball with 10 & 12 looping behind (Arg 2014, Italy 2014)
3) Option of putting a blindside winger in the hole left by the 10 (Lein v Munster 2012)
4) Option of 12 popping to 13 on the hard line (flipping loads of examples)
5) Option of a double looping player. 10 to 12. 10 loops. 8 also loops. Ball goes to 8 who quickly transfers to 10. Takes out the intelligent defensive read. (USA 2011)
6) Short lineout to a forward with a second coming hard from out to in. 10 loops behind the forwards and plays an inside pass to the blindside winger. (Lein v Cardiff HCup 1/4 final)

I love this move because there are so many possibilities. I think it is real decision making stuff here. You always have multi-optional facets in these plays and the second ball carrier has to make those right calls. Mixing it up is the name of the game. Takes serious intelligence and granted you don't need to be electrifingly quick or agile.

Good piece in Whiff

First up was Darren Cave. How did he do? Fine actually – the defensive system looked good, he did the simple things well (except that Rivelino-style banana kick), he brought those around him into play, he threatened the line and he didn’t look out of place in the shirt. There is no point judging him by O’Driscoll standards, or even by Manu or Smuddy standards, as some seem so keen to do - he’s clearly not at that level. What he is is competent and solid – and that’s what he showed. Cave himself doesn’t seem to expect to last beyond this tour in the shirt, but, right now, he’s the best option there – Henshaw is injured and has little experience, Luke Roysh has that worrying perma-injury thing going on that often precedes retirement, the Kildare Lewis Moody hasn’t started a game of note at 13 in years and Jared Payne is both still Kiwi and a rare starter at 13. Keith Earls is the likeliest possible challenger, if he starts there for Munster next year. Time, perhaps, to start dialing down our expectations, begin appreciating what Cave can do, rather that point out who he isn’t.

One of the other winners was Robbie Diack, who, one awful piece of butchery aside, had a good day at the office, and certainly outshone Jordi Murphy – that is significant, as, the 2007 Blindside Army aside, Ireland have taken 5 backrow forwards to the last few tournaments. You would think Heaslip, POM, SOB and Chris Henry are inked in, which leaves 1, and 2 at most, places left. Murphy and Diack are battling it out with Rhys Ruddock for those slots (save for a bolter) – and, given Murphy might struggle for starts in big games next season, Diack might have stolen a march on him.

Aside from that – Simon Zebo looked eager but occasionally naive, Iain Henderson to the manor born, Mike Ross flogged and Johnny Sexton imperious – what’s new. While its great to see Zebo back, other wingers were more prominent - Andy Trimble looked (unsurprisingly) better versed in what Schmidt wingers do, and Miguel Montero simply looked monstrous - Zebo has more work to do to get himself in the RWC15 frame. Hendy was so awesome that Big Dev, possibly Ireland’s find of the season, might find himself back on the bench – his soft hands to set Jack McGrath piling into some Puma forwards at high velocity were gorgeous. The future has arrived.

whiffofshoite more like.

ME-109 wrote:whiffofshoite more like.

The usual biting, but perceptive and constructive contribution from DOD....   

whiffofcordite are hilarious but they are getting a little bit too biased now.

They flippin love Ulster, think Leinster are grand and really take jabs at Munster whenever they can. A lot of the jabs are kinda justified (media attention etc) but they are taking it too far.

Thescore.ie have an analyst on board now and he/she is really, really good.

geoff998rugby wrote:Good piece in Whiff


Aside from that – Simon Zebo looked eager but occasionally naive, Iain Henderson to the manor born, Mike Ross flogged and Johnny Sexton imperious – what’s new. While its great to see Zebo back, other wingers were more prominent - Andy Trimble looked (unsurprisingly) better versed in what Schmidt wingers do, and Miguel Montero simply looked monstrous - Zebo has more work to do to get himself in the RWC15 frame. Hendy was so awesome that Big Dev, possibly Ireland’s find of the season, might find himself back on the bench – his soft hands to set Jack McGrath piling into some Puma forwards at high velocity were gorgeous. The future has arrived.

The future is stalled until Ireland meet a genuine International side again...like in the Autumn when they meet two of the very top ones!  Still feel the reading on last weekend should be "hard work made of a job England made look so simple 12 months ago"...and still feel the result of a similar performance against Autumn opposition will be a deeply embarrassing whipping.  

We do need to go and impose ourselves on the next game. Start the way we did on Saturday but finish those early chances and kill the game dead nice and early

Well stylistically it might be a bit odd but in term of content I reckon it was pretty spot on.

Cave is good but not great
Diack did well and may well have moved ahead of Murphy, who was poor, in the pecking order
Simon Zebo looked eager but occasionally niave, Iain Henderson to the manor born, Mike Ross flogged and Johnny Sexton imperious
Zebo still has his work cut out to make the RWC squad

Difficult to argue with any of that

Is Diack starting to get known as a guy who butchers tries? I seem to remember at least 3 times that I've seen him butcher tries (the one in the pro 12 final was unforgivable).

You really can't afford that at Test level.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Is Diack starting to get known as a guy who butchers tries? I seem to remember at least 3 times that I've seen him butcher tries (the one in the pro 12 final was unforgivable).

You really can't afford that at Test level.

Never did Keith Earls or Gordon D'arcy any harm...

geoff999rugby wrote:Well stylistically it might be a bit odd but in term of content I reckon it was pretty spot on.

Cave is good but not great
Diack did well and may well have moved ahead of Murphy, who was poor, in the pecking order
Simon Zebo looked eager but occasionally niave, Iain Henderson to the manor born, Mike Ross flogged and Johnny Sexton imperious
Zebo still has his work cut out to make the RWC squad

Difficult to argue with any of that

really...not very difficult at all...

geoff999rugby wrote:Well stylistically it might be a bit odd but in term of content I reckon it was pretty spot on.

Cave is good but not great
Diack did well and may well have moved ahead of Murphy, who was poor, in the pecking order
Simon Zebo looked eager but occasionally niave, Iain Henderson to the manor born, Mike Ross flogged and Johnny Sexton imperious
Zebo still has his work cut out to make the RWC squad

Difficult to argue with any of that

Completely agree with you, but some of their other posts over the last 2 months have been pretty damning towards Munster players. They also seem to love Ulster, a lot of their examples of points are made using Ulster players. They seem pretty grand with Leinster and Connacht but there definitely is a "we love Ulster and think Munster are overrated/primitive."

A lot of the negative stuff about Munster and positive stuff about Ulster I do agree with but the sly digs aren't warranted as much as they are handed out.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:knuckle down to how Joe wants him to play ....confirmation ...yes.  Joe knows more about rugby than Simon and you.... and me.  Knuckle down to how Joe wants him to play.  Quinlan was right twice over

If Joe is 'wrong' - like "a lot of people" allegedly think, then I'd like to see us with a coach who knows how to do things right - we'd either be 9th in the world, like were in the not too distant past, or we would have won the last world cup by stuffing Wales before they stuffed us.

It's nice of people to think they know more than Schmidt about what Simon should be concentrating on in a game.  "Leave him be, Joe! Don't you be ruining that man!  Just let him do his own thing, he'll wise you up on how to do it with style"

hmm, lets hope we don't have another Carlos Spencer situation on our hands. And while I mention King Carlos, look out for his  Eastern Province Kings v Wales during the week.    I wonder how that team will play?

*gulp* Carlos, Carlos, Carlos *sigh* Should'a listened to your old mate, Joe. Joe could'a taught you something if yid'a stuck around for long enough to listen.

I was only saying that I found that one particular Whiff report pretty accurate.
No comment or observation on their other stuff.

geoff998rugby wrote:I was only saying that I found that one particular Whiff report pretty accurate.
No comment or observation on their other stuff.

Would agree with you 100% on that. Their summary is pretty good on last week's game.

Anyone got any rumors of who is starting this week?

Saw somewhere

Backs were Kearney, Trimble, Cave, Reid, McFadden
Backrow was Ruddock, Heaslip, Henry

cant remember the rest but Toner was in

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I was only saying that I found that one particular Whiff report pretty accurate.
No comment or observation on their other stuff.

Would agree with you 100% on that. Their summary is pretty good on last week's game.

Anyone got any rumors of who is starting this week?

Its an opinion without any real basis in analysis and as has been pointed out given their approach in general I am sure as an Ulster supporter for example you would find that opinion/summary accurate.... the reality on the other hand....

geoff998rugby wrote:Saw somewhere

Backs were Kearney, Trimble, Cave, Reid, McFadden
Backrow was Ruddock, Heaslip, Henry

cant remember the rest but Toner was in

You see that on another form?

ME-109 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I was only saying that I found that one particular Whiff report pretty accurate.
No comment or observation on their other stuff.

Would agree with you 100% on that. Their summary is pretty good on last week's game.

Anyone got any rumors of who is starting this week?

Its an opinion without any real basis in analysis and as has been pointed out given their approach in general I am sure as an Ulster supporter for example you would find that opinion/summary accurate.... the reality on the other hand....

So their opinion is biased with no basis in analysis but your opinion is "reality",did you ever stop to think how ridiculous that statement is.

By the laws confirmed here today, EVERYONE has an agenda.

Journalists/bloggers aren't neutral just 'cause their credentials might suggest so.

Where does that leave us? ME is biased. Whiff is biased. Times is biased. Southern Irish Independent Journalists are biased ( - that one gets a good outing each year at certain times of the calendar!)........................ some idiots even think I'm biased!   

We're all biased. No analysis necessary.

ME-109 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I was only saying that I found that one particular Whiff report pretty accurate.
No comment or observation on their other stuff.

Would agree with you 100% on that. Their summary is pretty good on last week's game.

Anyone got any rumors of who is starting this week?

Its an opinion without any real basis in analysis and as has been pointed out given their approach in general I am sure as an Ulster supporter for example you would find that opinion/summary accurate.... the reality on the other hand....

It hardly was over the top re Ulster players

Cave is a decent player, has weaknesses, but is probably the best we have at 13 in the short term
Diack has probably moved ahead of Murphy in the pecking order
Henderson is the real deal and an Ireland star in the making

Which of those three statements do you disagree with ?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Saw somewhere

Backs were Kearney, Trimble, Cave, Reid, McFadden
Backrow was Ruddock, Heaslip, Henry

cant remember the rest but Toner was in

You see that on another form?

It was in one of the Irish newspapers - cant remember which.
Ross and Best were starting, Herring on the bench

................... Times.

That was the paper. And they do have a distinguished record of knowing the teams before Irish Head Coaches do.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I was only saying that I found that one particular Whiff report pretty accurate.
No comment or observation on their other stuff.

Would agree with you 100% on that. Their summary is pretty good on last week's game.

Anyone got any rumors of who is starting this week?

Its an opinion without any real basis in analysis and as has been pointed out given their approach in general I am sure as an Ulster supporter for example you would find that opinion/summary accurate.... the reality on the other hand....

So their opinion is biased with no basis in analysis but your opinion is "reality",did you ever stop to think how ridiculous that statement is.

You dont even know my opinion ASLS...stop being such a bore...   

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I was only saying that I found that one particular Whiff report pretty accurate.
No comment or observation on their other stuff.

Would agree with you 100% on that. Their summary is pretty good on last week's game.

Anyone got any rumors of who is starting this week?

Its an opinion without any real basis in analysis and as has been pointed out given their approach in general I am sure as an Ulster supporter for example you would find that opinion/summary accurate.... the reality on the other hand....

So their opinion is biased with no basis in analysis but your opinion is "reality",did you ever stop to think how ridiculous that statement is.

You dont even know my opinion ASLS...stop being such a bore...   

Avoiding the point as usual,you just throw out a few insults and slink back to your hole. That's par for the course at this stage.

You claim that their opinion is different from "reality",that implies that you know what "reality" is.It's all opinions but you seem to struggle with accepting that not everyone shares yours,it must be hard living a life where you believe you are right all the time and anyone who disagrees is deserving of scorn.

Anyway, the reality is that Schmidt seemed reasonably happy, Paulie wasn't too happy at all (I'm in his camp), Zebo was just happy to be playing again, the fans are mostly happy/not happy depending on bias. And, if we play like we did again at the weekend, we'll have cantered at a very slow disappointing pace to the end of a good season.

I'd prefer a good gallop to make the players work for their deckchairs and German towels

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I was only saying that I found that one particular Whiff report pretty accurate.
No comment or observation on their other stuff.

Would agree with you 100% on that. Their summary is pretty good on last week's game.

Anyone got any rumors of who is starting this week?

Its an opinion without any real basis in analysis and as has been pointed out given their approach in general I am sure as an Ulster supporter for example you would find that opinion/summary accurate.... the reality on the other hand....

So their opinion is biased with no basis in analysis but your opinion is "reality",did you ever stop to think how ridiculous that statement is.

You dont even know my opinion ASLS...stop being such a bore...   

Avoiding the point as usual,you just throw out a few insults and slink back to your hole. That's par for the course at this stage.

You claim that their opinion is different from "reality",that implies that you know what "reality" is.It's all opinions but you seem to struggle with accepting that not everyone shares yours,it must be hard living a life where you believe you are right all the time and anyone who disagrees is deserving of scorn.

hooked... good attempt at the old sheep savaging....unlike the top of your head you seem to be putting forward some pointless arguments..and looking for a pointless argument....

opinion is based on someones view of the world reality is what actually happens. Geoff has an opinion based on his view so do I. The question was that the whiffs opinions could not be disagreed with...I think its easy to disagree with.

Opinion
1. I dont think Diack is ahead of Murphy (or Ruddock for that matter) based on the fact he cannot play across the backrow.
2. Henderson I agree with (always have)
3. I dont think Cave is our best option at 13 and never have. He is a decent player but not to international standard.

Reality...is what Holy Joe will do - no one knows what that will be until he does it. But based on his recent past I believe he will go for Murphy/Ruddock over Diack. Henderson will still be behind Toner in the AI's. For OC who knows.

You must be having a bad day at work or something...or have bad gas...although given your general postings being in a bad mood seems to be your normal frame of reference..  

ME-109 wrote:
1. I dont think Diack is ahead of Murphy (or Ruddock for that matter) based on the fact he cannot play across the backrow.
2. Henderson I agree with (always have)
3. I dont think Cave is our best option at 13 and never have. He is a decent player but not to international standard.

1. Well Diack performed better than Murphy and he may not be a 7 but he can play second-row, 6 and 8 - that is really versatility.
Not sure Murphy is a credilble player for the entire backrow either and he doesn't offer an laternative in the second row.
No one said he was ahead of Ruddock so not sure why you mentioned him

3. Ok - who do you think is?
Henshaw (highly talented and probably the best prospect long term but still not played much at 13 at top level, still only 20)
Payne only played a handful games at 13 (not that impressive) in the 3 years he has been in Ireland
Earls tried and disappointed, not played at 13 by his Province this year
Fitzgerald - been unavaialble so long and not that great when he played there
Not saying Cave is a world beater - he isn't BUT the alternatives are not great until either Henshaw or possibly Payne show us they are the real deal.

geoff998rugby wrote:

ME-109 wrote:
1. I dont think Diack is ahead of Murphy (or Ruddock for that matter) based on the fact he cannot play across the backrow.
2. Henderson I agree with (always have)
3. I dont think Cave is our best option at 13 and never have. He is a decent player but not to international standard.

1. Well Diack performed better than Murphy and he may not be a 7 but he can play second-row, 6 and 8 - that is really versatility.
Not sure Murphy is a credilble player for the entire backrow either and he doesn't offer an laternative in the second row.
No one said he was ahead of Ruddock so not sure why you mentioned him

3. Ok - who do you think is?
Henshaw (highly talented and probably the best prospect long term but still not played much at 13 at top level, still only 20)
Payne only played a handful games at 13 (not that impressive) in the 3 years he has been in Ireland
Earls tried and disappointed, not played at 13 by his Province this year
Fitzgerald - been unavaialble so long and not that great when he played there
Not saying Cave is a world beater - he isn't BUT the alternatives are not great until either Henshaw or possibly Payne show us they are the real deal.

He was way better than anyone else (as in Cave) bearing in mind the competition.

By the way, Whiffofcordite did a piece on Earls (whom they rated as a centre) and they were savaged by their 'followers'. Since then, they find if they want to keep the numbers up, its better to swipe at Munster & all their players (to the extent that it has been discussed on there why all the Munster fans don't post there anymore).

When Pete thinks they are biased against Munster, they must be very, very bad. The site is run by an Ulster fan and a Leinster fan - thats why they always talk up any Ulster or Leinster players (and they need a measure so Munster comes in handy).

Well Diack can play at 8, and I think we saw at the weekend Jordi Murphy is definitely not an 8. But Murphy can play at 7 and Diack can't.

Notch wrote:Well Diack can play at 8, and I think we saw at the weekend Jordi Murphy is definitely not an 8. But Murphy can play at 7 and Diack can't.

It's funny how a player can be dismissed after one performance. I remember Ferris first couple of caps and being completely underwhelmed. Took a while for tommy Bowe to make the grade too.
Murphy is a young guy with a big future. He well may not end up playing 8 but you can't write off the possibility after one international start.

Oh no, I think he's a great player. Just can't see the attributes that make him a better 8 than a flanker. I look forward to seeing him develop in that position.

Not knocking Murphy but ME-109 was touting him above Diack on the grounds of versatility

Diack can play in the second row and the backrow Murphy can only play in the backrow.
I know which one I'd prefer in terms of an ability to play a number of roles.

That was the original point he and Henderson offer a very real opportunity to have a extra player elsewhere due to their versatility.
Not claiming Diack is in line to be part of the starting line up but he could do the same job as McFadden in the backs and cover a number of positions

geoff998rugby wrote:Not knocking Murphy but ME-109 was touting him above Diack on the grounds of versatility

Diack can play in the second row and the backrow Murphy can only play in the backrow.
I know which one I'd prefer in terms of an ability to play a number of roles.

That was the original point he and Henderson offer a very real opportunity to have a extra player elsewhere due to their versatility.
Not claiming Diack is in line to be part of the starting line up but he could do the same job as McFadden in the backs and cover a number of positions

Diack is an adequate second row in the Pro12 but there is a drop off in the power of the scrum when he goes in there, at international level he wouldn't be up to scratch. Working with POC and the Ireland coaching setup may help his technique but he wouldn't be ready to do a job there just yet.

He'd do a better job than Murphy which is the point I am making
He can play there in an emergency, he can jump in the lineout, he can play a couple of places in the backrow.
Murphy has only one of those strings to his bow - QED Diack is the more versatile of the two

Just a note of caution on the word 'versatility'.  Madigan is considered versatile and it seems to be a continuing noose around his neck in terms of a permanent position on any team (Ireland or Leinster).  I think he might hate the versatility/utility tag.  Others are like him.  And others too have been downgraded in the minds of people here because of the very utility jack-of-all-trades qualities they possess.

Not a comment on Diack or Murphy but a general comment on the idea that being good at many things can still be considered a downsize from being very good at one thing when it comes to high level International

Well, to be honest, its hard to see Diack being a regular ever for Ireland. He's going to be a squad player at best and thats exactly where you need versatility. His versatility doesn't hurt him at his province either. He's carved out a niche as a blindside flanke for Ulster and he is only moved from that position if injuries necessitate it.

Jordi Murphy is young enough he could improve enough to be an Ireland regular in three or four years. But I don't think he is a jack of all trades master of none either, he's coming along as an open side who can cover blindside and number 8- but I don't think he'll be as effective in those positions and he'll be seen as a specialist open side in the future.

As for Madigan, he's not missing out on opportunities because he's versatile. He's missing out because he's just not consistent enough to make the Leinster team for the big games in his preferred position right now. He's somewhat lucky to be on this tour because Jackson is injured, he was originally slated for a trip to Romania with the Emerging Ireland lads. His versatility is only an issue because he's losing out on being first choice to more consistent, in-form players for both province and country. He offers great 'versatility' from the bench, but that only becomes a selling point because Sexton, Gopperth and to a lesser extent Jackson have relegated him to being on the bench in the first place.

It can happen that coaches shove players into roles they are less good at because they are supposedly 'versatile'- see the way Pienaar was treated in South Africa, and the way Paddy Wallace and Tom Court were treated by Declan Kidney- but it's not happening to anyone in the Irish set-up right now.

Joe can't take more that five back rows to the RWC. Let's assume he takes POM, SOB, Heaslip and Henry. Of those Heaslip plays in only one position and 8 is arguably the position with the least cover from the other three players.
Right now those four players would be in the 23 against France and Italy, and while Joe will rotate the bench he won't want to flog them against Canada and Romania as well. In the unique circumstances imposed by the RWC squad restrictions, it is more important that the fifth player is a jack of all trades rather than a master of one.
Of the list of trades Jack has to cover Schmidt needs a viable 8 the most. Murphy is no better option there than Henry, SOB or POM, so unless he is selected ahead of one of them he won't make the RWC squad.

I suspect Copeland would be Heaslip's specialist replacement should JH have to leave the tournament through injury, but he isn't versatile or experienced enough to cover more positions.

That leaves Ruddock and Diack. Crucially Diack is a good lineout option and can operate in the second row so that gives him an edge to be the floating cover if Joe only takes 3 locks. OTOH if Joe takes four locks, Ruddock would probably be a better choice.

That makes a fair amount of sense Ausker

cant remember what is the size of a WC squad?