Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Cave has to use Trimble to inspire him - knuckled down, took the feedback and came from outside the squad to nail a starting spot when everyone had written him off.

He's in a prime position now on this tour.

Geoff.............. it's just that you're a tad..................... a tad........................ overdoing the significance of these games against Argentina.  

I'll bet if Schmidt had a genuine say in an ideal world, that didn't require people honouring prior engagments and agreed meetings, he'd have cancelled Argentina altogether and tried to get a game or two against sturdier (on paper) sides.  
By all accounts this will be Argentina B or C.  Not a lot for a first team hopeful to get his teeth into and not a lot for Schmidt to judge much on.

Having said all that Argentina will now of course go on and beat us well in both games!

I think these games are really significant. If guys have been left off the tour its because they are already shoe ins for the RWC squad.

This is one of the few opportunities for players to either force their way in or put themselves in the frame as injury cover.  

Anyone not involved in the 6N and on this tour has a huge opportunity to keep themselves in the mix. After these 3 games and the 3 in the autumn the RWC squad will be 99% pencilled in.

POM isn't an impact type player (neither is Henry). I think POM had a great 6Ns (aided by having Henry doing the tackling for POM to steal turnover ball).

I think the ireland backrow will pan out with POM, SOB & Heaslip with either Ruddock or Jordi Murphy on the bench. Henry will be SOB first option back-up and since SOB gets injured a fair bit, he will get plenty of time.

I don't think Henshaw is seriously in Schmidt's plans for the world cup at centre - he is just too inexperienced (not having played in any major knock-out competition and come out the right side of it). Payne has a better chance than both, and he also has D'Arcy, Earls, Fitzgerald & McFadden who have played there a fair bit. In fact didn't Earls & D'Arcy play a Six Nations there together.

In fairness to the IRFU, I think they are looking out for Henshaw by leaving him in Connacht to develop at his own pace and putting good structures around him to develop well.

rodders wrote:I think these games are really significant. If guys have been left off the tour its because they are already shoe ins for the RWC squad.

This is one of the few opportunities for players to either force their way in or put themselves in the frame as injury cover.  

Anyone not involved in the 6N and on this tour has a huge opportunity to keep themselves in the mix. After these 3 games and the 3 in the autumn the RWC squad will be 99% pencilled in.

I really don't see how he will judge anything from these games. What did they learn last year from US & Canada (where some of the performances were below par). Ferg McFadden & POM were probably the only two who could hold their heads up after that tour.

Not convinced there Rodders.  I think there'll be 'courtesy' talk over there about how significant the games are for us.  There'll be talk about Argentina as if everyone is in the dark about the fact that it won't be Argentina at all - but a much lesser group (on paper!)

Nope, if the Argentinians put up as much fight as they did against England last year then you wouldn't in any way say the heat of battle against them will be sufficently intense to calibrate who is worth a seat at the WC.  I just don't see how that computes in real terms.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have a feeling that in real terms the Emerging Ireland side will/and should have a tougher assignment than the full International side.

Under those Argentine circumstances - the very least I'll expect is an out and out thrashing of the Argentinian side on both occasions.  If that happens then at least Schmidt will have something to work on.  If we struggle or just get across the winning line and no more - against a side that a Province might expect to easily put to the sword - then all bets are off for the tour being anything more than a holiday.

No the games aren't significant for the side - they are significant for the individuals picked, particularly those who didn't feature much in the 6N specifically L Marshall, Cave and Zebo, Felix Jones too.

Henshaw will probably only have the Georgia game now.

Schmidt said way back that these games were last chance to experiment before he selects the RWC side.

I guess my point is/was that, even on an individual basis, Schmidt might be best served keep an eye on coverage/feedback from the Emerging Ireland group as much as he'll have his other one on Argentina.  I believe the genuinely tougher contest might be provided by Emerging Ireland opponents and therefore a few Emerging Ireland no-hopers might push themselves surprisingly up the charts.  
Schmidt might be in the wrong continent when judging last-chances for WC spots is what I mean!  Strange but perhaps true. We'll await and see how all the games pan out.

SecretFly wrote:I guess my point is/was that, even on an individual basis, Schmidt might be best served keep an eye on coverage/feedback from the Emerging Ireland group as much as he'll have his other one on Argentina.

I'm sure he will, but those in his group are in a better position to cast an impression.

The EI tour is a good opportunity for players too, although with the injuries its looking like last man standing at the minute on that one...

Yeah..I saw you were talking even me, Notch and Sin onto the EI team! I'm in no fit state this time round to answer the call, much as I'd like to. My back is shot. Me and Drico are finished.

I can't believe that this is the end of Schmidt's experimentation. If that were the case he would have only one outside centre (Cave) who has started against Canada, USA and a weakened Argentina twice.

Nope.

Henshaw or Payne will get a go in the centre against the Southern Hemisphere lot in the Autumn. No way Schmidt will go to a world cup without having a legitimate backup. That is why I think Henshaw's injury is such a massive blow to this tour. We really could have used this tour to get him up to speed and see how he got on. Joe has said he nearly made it into the matchday squads of the 6Nations a few times when BOD was pretty battered.

I'm convinced he'd have a had a good shot of starting both games at 13 (maybe starting one at 15).

SecretFly wrote:Not convinced there Rodders.  I think there'll be 'courtesy' talk over there about how significant the games are for us.  There'll be talk about Argentina as if everyone is in the dark about the fact that it won't be Argentina at all - but a much lesser group (on paper!)

Nope, if the Argentinians put up as much fight as they did against England last year then you wouldn't in any way say the heat of battle against them will be sufficently intense to calibrate who is worth a seat at the WC.  I just don't see how that computes in real terms.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have a feeling that in real terms the Emerging Ireland side will/and should have a tougher assignment than the full International side.

Under those Argentine circumstances - the very least I'll expect is an out and out thrashing of the Argentinian side on both occasions.  If that happens then at least Schmidt will have something to work on.  If we struggle or just get across the winning line and no more - against a side that a Province might expect to easily put to the sword - then all bets are off for the tour being anything more than a holiday.

+1 Kyle Eastmond was made look like the "next big thing" after their tour to ARG last year. Everyone was raving about him on here...How many caps has he gone on to win since? These games really don't mean a whole lot given what the opposition is like.

The only thing this tour would have been good for is to give Henshaw some game time, but now he's out.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I can't believe that this is the end of Schmidt's experimentation. If that were the case he would have only one outside centre (Cave) who has started against Canada, USA and a weakened Argentina twice.

Nope.

Henshaw or Payne will get a go in the centre against the Southern Hemisphere lot in the Autumn. No way Schmidt will go to a world cup without having a legitimate backup. That is why I think Henshaw's injury is such a massive blow to this tour. We really could have used this tour to get him up to speed and see how he got on. Joe has said he nearly made it into the matchday squads of the 6Nations a few times when BOD was pretty battered.

I'm convinced he'd have a had a good shot of starting both games at 13 (maybe starting one at 15).

I don't get what you are saying Pete?

Schmidt said some time back that he had to prioritise results in the autumn and 6N and that this tour was pencilled in as the last opportunity to build depth and experiment. His words not mine.

Apart from Georgia where there is some leeway to try some fringe players, after this tour it will be the strongest team that will play so very little chance for the likes of Marmion, Copeland, O'Donnell, Kilcoyne, Henshaw etc. to impress before the RWC squad is picked.

I don't think Henshaw is really in the frame for the 13 jersey anyways - I think in the medium term it will be between Payne, Cave and D'arcy.

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I can't believe that this is the end of Schmidt's experimentation. If that were the case he would have only one outside centre (Cave) who has started against Canada, USA and a weakened Argentina twice.

Nope.

Henshaw or Payne will get a go in the centre against the Southern Hemisphere lot in the Autumn. No way Schmidt will go to a world cup without having a legitimate backup. That is why I think Henshaw's injury is such a massive blow to this tour. We really could have used this tour to get him up to speed and see how he got on. Joe has said he nearly made it into the matchday squads of the 6Nations a few times when BOD was pretty battered.

I'm convinced he'd have a had a good shot of starting both games at 13 (maybe starting one at 15).

I don't get what you are saying Pete?

Schmidt said some time back that he had to prioritise results in the autumn and 6N and that this tour was pencilled in as the last opportunity to build depth and experiment. His words not mine.

Apart from Georgia where there is some leeway to try some fringe players, after this tour it will be the strongest team that will play so very little chance for the likes of Marmion, Copeland, O'Donnell, Kilcoyne, Henshaw etc. to impress before the RWC squad is picked.

I don't think Henshaw is really in the frame for the 13 jersey anyways - I think in the medium term it will be between Payne, Cave and D'arcy.

Payne is an experiment himself! There is no way that Schmidt will not experiment more in the Autumn and perhaps even against Scotland in the 6Nations. We need massive more depth at 13. More depth at 15. More quality at 9. Moore needs more time.

Like, we are not a settled team......at all. There are areas of our team that aren't set for the RWC which is obviously not ideal but is the way it is. we need to move forward in these positions.

To not experiment would be crazy we need to know what Moore, Marmion, Olding, Henderson, Payne, Cave and Henshaw are capable of

All could have the possibility of improving the team.

On a tangent if you are thinking of buying Autumn International tickets lot more avilable for Australia than Saffers - at least last time I looked. Supporters club members seemed to have taken up most Saffers tickets

Don't shoot the messenger! This is Schmidt who has said this.

We are a settled side Pete

15 Kearney
14 ?
13 ?
12 ?
11 ?
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 O'Mahoney
5 O'Connell
4 Toner
3 Ross/Moore
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: Moore/Ross, Cronin, ?, Henderson((Ryan?), Henry (Murphy?) , Reddan, Jackson (Madigan?), McFadden(?)

At least 11 starting spots are 100% nailed on. There is some question marks around the 3/4 line but Schmidt has already thrown a few hints as to who is pencilled in where.

rodders wrote:Don't shoot the messenger! This is Schmidt who has said this.

We are a settled side Pete

15 Kearney
14 ?
13 ?
12 ?
11 ?
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 O'Mahoney
5 O'Connell
4 Toner
3 Ross/Moore
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: Moore/Ross, Cronin, ?, Henderson((Ryan?), Henry (Murphy?) , Reddan, Jackson (Madigan?), McFadden(?)

At least 11 starting spots are 100% nailed on. There is some question marks around the 3/4 line but Schmidt has already thrown a few hints as to who is pencilled in where.

I am totally with Geoff on this on all the players he mentioned are lads we need to look at more.

The number 3 jersey is up for debate.
There is a jersey in the backrow that is up for debate.
In 6 months time there may well be a jersey in the second row up for debate.
There are 2 jerseys in the centre that are pretty open.

Is anyone decided on the bench? I'd say the only definite bench player would be Jack McGrath all the others are pretty up in the air. There is no way you could get even 10 guys nailed on if you were to guess our 23 with an entirely fit compliment of players.

15 Kearney? Hmm............. I'd like a real alternative there if'n his form slides.  Good when he's good - can mimic 'atrocious' pretty accurately too though at times.
14 ?
13 Madigan - nailed on
12 ?
11 ?
10 Sexton - if he ain't there we're 50% down as a team.  He's become that important.  Should be Captain too.  And Mascot.  And inspirational tealady too if he can find the time.
9 Murray? Hmm - yes I'll say.  But I don't think we should have a nailed down 9 but two nailed down 9s with different skill sets.  Murray is obviously good at what he does (more physicality) but we need a little zipper to take over when a game needs faster distribution.  Murray can get into a one tempo fixation that is hard to knock him out of.
8 Heaslip - done deal for the Testosterone levels alone!
7 SOB - ?  Yes up till now.  Let's see what the new season looks like for him.  Back from injury is always a big question mark for players.  Will they get back to themselves or will they suffer?
6 O'Mahoney - Yep - just to rile the other fans who think he ain't worth it and regard him as 'overrated'.
5 O'Connell - ?  Yes up till now.  Another season.  Will he hold out at the right levels that International needs.  His teeth are getting longer.
4 Toner - Impressed by him mostly because of how little impressed I was a few short years (or year) ago.
3 Ross/Moore - Moore more than Ross.
2 Best - If he improves his lineout throwing he'd make a great 13  No, Best is probably my next Best nailed on character after Sexton.  For that blooded heart of his.  He is glorious when his fire is up and he'd walk through a wall for his country.
1 Healy - a chancer, a poodle, a puppy dog pretending to be a rothweiler.  Not a chance he'll make it to the WC.  Schmidt has spotted him out for what he is - a spoofer ......

Just a point Rodders.  There will be/should be injuries along the way so I wouldn't nail anyone on just yet.  If we get to the WC with all nailed on guys actually nailed on to a team sheet, we'll be very very lucky.  I hope it works out that way but............... this is Ireland!  Our WC disaster syndrome is gonna manifest itself in some way.

I'm just paraphrasing what Schmidt said on Turbidy in January. IRFU allows no experimentation during the 6N and priority is to win the home internationals so he and the IRFU had pencilled in this tour plus the Georgia game as the last opportunities to build squad depth and experiment with combinations.

The strongest available sides will be going out against Australia and SA and in the 6N. That is just a fact from the horses mouth.

That means if you are outside that core group this tour and the EI one will probably be the last chance to pull on a green jersey before the RWC squad is decided.

I'm pretty sure Schmidt has most of the squad picked - he's always been pretty conservative at Leinster for the big games so he'll have an idea what his squad is.

He did show with Trimble though that if guys come in and go really well he'll stick with them so this tour is a real opportunity to stay in the frame for the autumn.

Well he definitely can't have 13 picked and by that distinction it may be hard to have his 12 picked.

He definitely doesn't have his 3 picked and by that definition may not have his tighthead lock picked.

He probably has one spot open in the backrow to fight out between POM, SOB and Henry.

Of course he has his 3 picked, its Ross and Moore and Toner will partner O'Connell in the second row. In fact I'd bet Toner is first choice lock at this stage, given his stats are far superior to POCs and Toner wasn't subbed once in the 6N.

He had the 13 jersey narrowed to 3 people - Payne, Cave and Henshaw (O'Connor has mentioned D'arcy) who all had private sessions with him and BOD.

... that said I'm not convinced Drico is really gone and will likely return a la Matfield and lead us at the RWC....

rodders wrote:Of course he has his 3 picked, its Ross and Moore and Toner will partner O'Connell in the second row. In fact I'd bet Toner is first choice lock at this stage, given his stats are far superior to POCs and Toner wasn't subbed once in the 6N.

He had the 13 jersey narrowed to 3 people - Payne, Cave and Henshaw (O'Connor has mentioned D'arcy) who all had private sessions with him and BOD.

... that said I'm not convinced Drico is really gone and will likely return a la Matfield and lead us at the RWC....

......along with Stevie Ferris

Pete330v2 wrote:

rodders wrote:Of course he has his 3 picked, its Ross and Moore and Toner will partner O'Connell in the second row. In fact I'd bet Toner is first choice lock at this stage, given his stats are far superior to POCs and Toner wasn't subbed once in the 6N.

He had the 13 jersey narrowed to 3 people - Payne, Cave and Henshaw (O'Connor has mentioned D'arcy) who all had private sessions with him and BOD.

... that said I'm not convinced Drico is really gone and will likely return a la Matfield and lead us at the RWC....

......along with Stevie Ferris

And all live on BT Sport!   

BT Sport have exclusive rights to the WC?

Well, do flush when you're finished with it, BT - you left the lid up on your last victory by the way. Might I suggest some air freshner in future?

...not yet fly but its a matter of time.... watch this space....

Question for the Munster fellas is Keith Earls expected to play 13 next season? 

I've noticed his defence has come on hugely in the past year or so and to my eyes his passing skills are far better than are made out. The season he did play 13 he provided a lot of of try assists.

Henshaw, Cave and Payne look the most likely successors to BOD but I'm fairly sure Schmidt has publicly mentioned Earls as a centre in the past and when he was pulled out of the squad this week, it was a centre, Noel Reid, rather than a winger who replaced him.

Probably too late for him to push for first choice but certainly worth looking at as a back-up option, IMO. Looks like a much improved player to me, albeit injury prone.

Schmidt also said he's keen to get Earls into the system quick (something spoiled by his non-attendance in Argentina obviously)  But Schmidt's comments were post that announcement and so it sounded like Schmidt really wants to see what can happen with Earls (who he does seem to really like - Sin is right there) in the mix.  I'd assume that eagerness to try out Earls has more to do with a Central experiment than simply having him as yet another wing option.
So... I'd say he's right up there in Schmidt's thoughts along with the others already mentioned.

Is there ever going to be a team announcement??

There has to be an element of experimentation to replace BOD but other than that Schmidt should be rotating his players to make them as interchangeable as possible.

Ireland will only be allowed to name 31 players in the squad for the RWC. Of those, nine will be front rows because of the new laws and Ireland don't have a prop who can play both sides (except Warwick!). Joe won't want to send either of his top two home in these positions if there is a minor niggle, hence he will have three of each:
Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne
Best, Cronin, (1 from Strauss/Varley/Herring/Sherry)
Ross, Moore, (1 from Archer/Ah You/Lutton)

That leaves 22 remaining places.

Schmidt will want to have 14 backs because of the uncertainty in midfield, and because he can replace a forward easier at short notice, (the backs will be indoctrinated with Joe's patterns).
That leaves 8 places for lock and backrow.
POC, Toner + Henderson (lock and cover backrow)
POM, SOB, Heaslip + Henry (backrow cover)
+ (1 from Tuohy, Ryan, Ruddock, TOD)

Three scrumhalves:
Murray, Reddan, (1 from Boss, Marmion, PMarshall)
Two Outhalves:
Sexton, Jackson
Two Centres:
D'Arcy, LMarshall
Four Back 3:
Bowe, RKearney, Trimble, DKearney

There needs to be a third centre:
(1 from Cave, Henshaw, Payne, Olding)

Which leaves two spots for utility cover:
2 from Henshaw, Payne, Olding, Madigan, Earls, Zebo


So Schmidt will have to unearth BOD's successor and stick with him for almost every game to give him a chance to bed in. Personally I think it will be D'Arcy and the switching may be done at 12 instead. So other than the Centres, Schmidt can't afford to keep unsettling the team but will have to rotate within the squad above to maximise his opportunities to get them to both gel and become more interchangeable.

rodders wrote:Is there ever going to be a team announcement??

Believe it's at 6pm tonight.

SecretFly wrote:Schmidt also said he's keen to get Earls into the system quick (something spoiled by his non-attendance in Argentina obviously)  But Schmidt's comments were post that announcement and so it sounded like Schmidt really wants to see what can happen with Earls (who he does seem to really like - Sin is right there) in the mix.  I'd assume that eagerness to try out Earls has more to do with a Central experiment than simply having him as yet another wing option.
So... I'd say he's right up there in Schmidt's thoughts along with the others already mentioned.

He also said he wanted to try out McFadden there on this tour and he would be trying out Fitzgerald if he was fit.

Excellent stuff aukstsr:

Props

Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne
Ross, Moore, Ah You

Hookers

Best, Cronin, Varley

Locks

POC, Toner + Henderson (lock and cover backrow)

Backrow

POM, SOB, Heaslip, Henry, Jordi Murphy

Murray, Reddan, Marmion

Outhalves:

Sexton, Jackson, Madigan

Centres:

D'Arcy, Cave

Back 3:

McFadden , R Kearney, Trimble, D. Kearney, Payne

Cave is being asked to play 12 because whoever gets selected needs to be interchangeable with D'arcy.

I think we may go with 5 props rather than 6.

Payne and Henshaw are playing for one spot as are Marshall and Cave.

Bowe and Earls may miss the cut.

How can Payne & Henshaw make the cut ahead of Bowe & Earls, bearing in mind they are proven internationals unlike Payne, Henshaw & Cave?

Sin é wrote:How can Payne & Henshaw make the cut ahead of Bowe & Earls, bearing in mind they are proven internationals unlike Payne, Henshaw & Cave?

Because Payne and Henshaw cover fullback and centre.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:How can Payne & Henshaw make the cut ahead of Bowe & Earls, bearing in mind they are proven internationals unlike Payne, Henshaw & Cave?

Because Payne and Henshaw cover fullback and centre.

They haven't done it at international level - unlike Bowe (Lions & Club), Earls (Club, International & Lions).

Henshaw will probably make the world cup squad, but it will be for experience and backup.

Because Bowe and Earls are at their best on the wing.

Cave, Henshaw and Payne have experience at the top of the Club game at 13.
Earls has been tried at 13 for Ireland and come up short, Bowe hasn't even been tried.

If there is one shirt up for grabs it is 13 and any one of those 3 players could grab it

I hasten to add I do not agre with Auksters/Rodders squad - I personally do not thing D.Kearney or Ah You will make it.
D.Kearney was a safe option because of issues with Bowe, Zebo, Earls, Fitzgerald, and maybe even, Gilroy. That is unlikely to happen again.
I think Furlong could be further advance at TH to overtake Ah You.

One and probably both of Payne and Henshaw will go because there are the best alternatives to R. Kearney as a 15.

I think 4 Locks will go and the 4th one will be Ryan if fit otherwise Tuohy.

geoff998rugby wrote:Because Bowe and Earls are at their best on the wing.

Cave, Henshaw and Payne have experience at the top of the Club game at 13.
Earls has been tried at 13 for Ireland and come up short, Bowe hasn't even been tried.

If there is one shirt up for grabs it is 13 and any one of those 3 players could grab it

I hasten to add I do not agre with Auksters/Rodders squad - I personally do not thing D.Kearney or Ah You will make it.
D.Kearney was a safe option because of issues with Bowe, Zebo, Earls, Fitzgerald, and maybe even, Gilroy. That is unlikely to happen again.
I think Furlong could be further advance at TH to overtake Ah You.

One and probably both of Payne and Henshaw will go because there are the best alternatives to R. Kearney as a 15.

I think 4 Locks will go and the 4th one will be Ryan if fit otherwise Tuohy.

Top of club game is still not international. Cave didn't even look too hot on the US tour last year. Bowe has played at 13 for the Ospreys (Club level) and won a Lions test at 13 and while it wouldn't be his best position, he is a big game player which hasn't been a characteristic I would see in Payne (or indeed a lot of players now in the squad).

There are 2 players, barring injury I think will make the world cup squad - and that is Bowe & Earls and more than likely starters in the big games. Henshaw is still very young and raw with huge expectations - I'd imagine the IRFU/Schmidt/Lam are very mindful of that and will look after his development and not rush him.

Argentina side to face Ireland on Saturday;

1-Lucas Noguera Paz
2-Matías Cortese
3-Ramiro Herrera
4-Manuel Carizza
5-Tomás Lavanini
6-Tomás de la Vega
7-Rodrigo Báez
8-Benjamín Macome
9-Martín Landajo (c)
10-Nicolás Sánchez
11-Santiago Cordero
12-Gabriel Ascárate
13-Jerónimo de la Fuente
14-Manuel Montero
15-Joaquín Tuculet

16-Julián Montoya, 17-Bruno Postiglioni, 18-Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 19-Matías Alemanno, 20-Javier Ortega Desio, 21-Tomás Cubelli, 22-Santiago González Iglesias, 23-Lucas González Amorosino.

The Argentinean halfbacks are very good. There is quality in the outside backs also. But the pack isn't that imposing.

IRELAND Team & Replacements v Argentina, Estadio Centenario, Resistencia, Chaco, Summer Tour, Saturday 7th June, kick-off 15:40 LOCAL (19:40 GMT):

Player/Club/Province/Caps -

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 5
14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 55
13. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 5
12. Luke Marshall (Ballnyahinch/Ulster) 5
11. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) 6
10. Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92) 43
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 27

1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 8
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 75
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 39
4. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 10
5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 92 capt
6. Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) *
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 14
8. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 2

Replacements:

16. Damien Varley (Garryowen/Munster) 2
17. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 8
18. Rodney Ah You (Buccaneers/Connacht) *
19. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 15
20. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) 65
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) *
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster) 8
23. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 26

Argentina v IRELAND
Saturday 7th June, 2014
Estadio Centenario, Resistencia, Chaco
KO 15:40 local time (19:40 Irish time)

Big opportunities for new cap Robbie Diack, Felix Jones, Darren Cave and Jordi Murphy. They all need big games before the Leinster boys all come back for the second test. There would be a lot of doubters out there Cave and Jones need to prove wrong!

Delighted for Robbie, he won't let us down.

Pretty happy with the team named all things considered.

Positives:
1) McGrath getting time at 1 and Henderson at lock.
2) Marmion to come off the bench (huge player for our RWC IMO)
3) Ulster partnership in the centres.
4) Zebo back in harness.

Negatives:
1) Jones at 15. (Nice guy just really don't rate him)
2) We should be fielding a better 3rd choice TH than Ah You.

Come on the boys in green put a score on and put in a performance to back up the Six Nations lads' efforts

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Pretty happy with the team named all things considered.

Positives:
1) McGrath getting time at 1 and Henderson at lock.
2) Marmion to come off the bench (huge player for our RWC IMO)
3) Ulster partnership in the centres.
4) Zebo back in harness.

Negatives:
1) Jones at 15. (Nice guy just really don't rate him)
2) We should be fielding a better 3rd choice TH than Ah You.

Come on the boys in green put a score on and put in a performance to back up the Six Nations lads' efforts

thats the one i most want to see. Marmion needs to go all out for a RWC place.

rodders wrote:I think we may go with 5 props rather than 6.

How would that work though Rodders? If Schmidt took only two tight heads and say Moore was on the bench but carrying a knock, Joe would have to play Ross the full 80 and hope he didn't have to sub him during the game. Equally if say Healy got an injury (or needed a rest) that would keep him out of a pool game, Joe wouldn't want to be forced to send him home just to have fit bench cover.

With the new rules there has to be 9 front rowers in the squad unless a prop can play both sides. This probably means there are only 8 spaces left for the rest of the forwards. Taking 4 locks would be a luxury as that would only leave 4 backrows - i.e. 3 starters and one on the bench so no opportunity to rotate or rest an injury. Henderson can play both positions but there might be an argument to take someone like Diack who is a stand-in lock and can also play across the backrow.

Of course Schmidt could take an extra forward but that would only leave 13 backs.

Notch wrote:The Argentinean halfbacks are very good. There is quality in the outside backs also. But the pack isn't that imposing.

I wonder why Cabelli isn't starting though, I thought he was good for the Barbarians last week...

Because he was playing for them last week probably.

Santiago Cordero is another guy who stands out as well, a very elusive runner.

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:I think we may go with 5 props rather than 6.

How would that work though Rodders? If Schmidt took only two tight heads and say Moore was on the bench but carrying a knock, Joe would have to play Ross the full 80 and hope he didn't have to sub him during the game. Equally if say Healy got an injury (or needed a rest) that would keep him out of a pool game, Joe wouldn't want to be forced to send him home just to have fit bench cover.

With the new rules there has to be 9 front rowers in the squad unless a prop can play both sides. This probably means there are only 8 spaces left for the rest of the forwards. Taking 4 locks would be a luxury as that would only leave 4 backrows - i.e. 3 starters and one on the bench so no opportunity to rotate or rest an injury. Henderson can play both positions but there might be an argument to take someone like Diack who is a stand-in lock and can also play across the backrow.

Of course Schmidt could take an extra forward but that would only leave 13 backs.

Pretty logical there Ausker. I just hope that if we are bringing 3 sets of each front row position our 3rd choice at TH really starts to up it. Kilcoyne is good. Strauss/Varley are good. We have no real 3rd choice TH of any quality.....at all.

If we went with 13 backs we'd probably go with

3 Scrumhalves (Murray-Marmion-Reddan)
3 Flyhalves (Sexton-Jackson-Madigan)
3 Centres (Marshall-Cave-Henshaw)
4 Outside backs (Kearney-Zebo-Trimble-Earls)

Madigan able to cover centres and Henshaw able to cover 15. IMO that is not enough lads in the outside backs.

Wooohooooo Big Robbie Diack, go on big man.
He won't let us down, been brilliant for Ulster since Anscombe landed.
Darren and Luke have it all to proveat this level as a centre partnership so chances have to be taken.
It's good to see Zebo back in an Irish shirt and fingers crossed he impresses.

Good point Aukster. I'm just not sure we need 3 Loose heads though - if so Kilcoyne will be there.

Given O'Connell's injury record I'd be inclined to go with 3 locks plus Henderson as backrow cover.

That may mean 4 backrowers - SOB, Heaslip, POM and Henry.

Backs is pretty obvious(ish) to me. I don't see Earls, Zebo or Marshall making it - 1 of Bowe and Trimble, 1 of Payne and Henshaw, 1 of Cave and Marshall, 1 of Zebo and DK.

Pretty happy with the team for tomorrow. Nice to see Diack get capped after a solid couple of seasons for Ulster. Right call on the centre partnership too - leaves the backline with a very balanced look - can see us running in a few tries if we can set a good platform.

Not really happy with the timing of these games so soon after the domestic season. Touch wood no injuries.....

Pete330v2 wrote:Wooohooooo Big Robbie Diack, go on big man.
He won't let us down, been brilliant for Ulster since Anscombe landed.
Darren and Luke have it all to proveat this level as a centre partnership so chances have to be taken.
It's good to see Zebo back in an Irish shirt and fingers crossed he impresses.

....In the right areas, by exhaustive endeavour at the more physical ball winning stuff as much as the fancy toe numbers. We'll see who is winning the battle of stubborn minds on this one. And, if he impresses on all levels, Sin will probably even let talk of Spencer and the Blues slide away into the darkness and never get a mention again.

I'll be watching his rucking that's for sure. DK hits an average of 18 rucks per game. He needs to pull his socks up that's for sure... no matter what colour they are.