Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Oh so close for Cave there, good offload by Ruddock who has done well and nice work from Cave on his shoulder thought he was a bit unlucky there to give away the pen.

Golden wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:I wish Ireland had a quality winger instead of the over-rated Zebo

Dont worry Kearneys injury isnt too bad. Hell be back for the AIs

Is he going to be the halftime entertainment?

ME-109 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:I wish Ireland had a quality winger instead of the over-rated Zebo

Dont worry Kearneys injury isnt too bad. Hell be back for the AIs

Is he going to be the halftime entertainment?

That's an outrageous comment to make ME-109 clearly he is going to be working closely with the squad, taking over Connor Murray's duties as the barber

We haven't played well but I can't believe the ref hasn't given the Argies a yellow card,they have been constantly infringing in their own half.

Ian Madigan settles it- well done to Ireland for digging in here. Not playing well at all at times but (eventually) took control of the ball and the game.

Big step for Madigan and try time. 23-10 now to Ireland and that should be that over

Noel Reid---thanks Ian for the hospital pass on my first taste of intl rugby...

Try at the end for Argentina, soft try to concede at the end and that is full time Ireland 23-17 Argentina.
Not a great game at all from Ireland but I'd say overall a positive tour because they have come away with 2 wins in tough places to play and most importantly have learned a lot about individual players and about combinations and really that is what this tour should have been all about

That was fairly turgid...but a wins a win..

My biggest concern is the things that Ireland have done really, really well on this tour fall under the purview of John Plumtree and the things we have been worst at are the responsibility of Les Kiss.

I would feel a lot happier and a lot more confident if it was Kiss who was leaving us and not Plumtree.

i watched the second half. did anyone else thing that it looked like someone was filming it on a handheld?

Wot have we learned?  We've learned that Old Darce and Old Riscoll will be our preference 12 and 13 at the world cup!  Old Riscoll has already relented and declared that he's ready to come out of retirement in the cause of Joe.  Once more unto the Breach, Dear Friends.

New Zealand v England - rugby with bells on.  Very entertaining.  Genuine foot on the gas rugby by both sides.
South Africa v Wales - most menacing display I've seen yet from any side this summer. South Africa look ready for war.  Look hard as nails.  
Ireland v Argentina - workmanlike summer school for naughty pupils who didn't try hard enough during the school term.  Obviously a tour overtly much more concerned with ironing out esoteric details and testing individual hopefuls than with actual results or too much focus on an overall winning gameplan.  
So be it, Joe doing some mechanics in his garage over the summer - but rugby is entertainment too - that's why people watch it and why Sky pay money to show it.  Yes Argentina provided the entertainment moments in both games.  Glad they wanted to play at least.

Australia v France.................................................. no comment.

quinsforever wrote:i watched the second half. did anyone else thing that it looked like someone was filming it on a handheld?

That's because it probably was. Earlier in the game a camera that was perched high in a stand began to suddenly start focusing higher and higher and higher until it was looking directly at the sky. We said here "There he goes, the camera man has fallen off the back of the stand - either heatstroke or.................a little liquid refreshment."

i missed that. comedy.

argentina is probably my favourite place on the planet, and i can understand why erstwhile sensible cameramen might get distracted by the pleasant sights...

Quinlan has come out of this tour as the real winner for me. Likening Madigan to Giteau is inspired. A 10 but not a 10, really a 12 if you have the luxury of a big Bastareaud at 13.

I watched Zebo very closely and boy did he hit rucks. He was hitting them left right and centre. In fact he was a little too enthusiastic for them. Someone must have said a word at half time because thankfully he reverted to trying to play like a winger in the second half.

Yeah..Joe has him addicted to them now... I hear he even tries practicing his Zee sign whenever he hits one in training. He's thinking about adding it to gameday celebrations but Joe frowned and showed him the cane. So he'll have to be creative about trying to add it to his host of skills but he's cheeky enough to risk it.

Who got MOTM btw?

No idea..the ball boy possibly

So what have we learned
Well we have learned that going from a weakness just a couple of years ago we now really have options in the front row who can do a good job.
Similar with the Locks really, Henderson playing well at lock was a bonus as he had really mostly played back row before for Ireland.
Back row is competitive with Rhyss Rudduck having a good game today and Diack throwing himself into contention it is now not just who will start in the back row that has people guessing but who will go to the world cup in it.
Halfback we learned nothing really other than Joe doesn't trust Madigan to start at the minute even as a test.
Centres we learned at this moment in time there is no fit or qualified player who can fill BOD role. Cave is not a 12, McFadden is not a 13 and Cave and McFadden both out of position definately doesn't work. Most likely now we will have Earls, Henshaw or Payne at 13 come 6 nations which of those guys it is, well your guess is as good as mine.
Zebo has been reinvented as a player Joe can now really get behind and has earned his way back into the squad by being much much better in defence and in general we have quality back 3 options.
So that's pretty much what we have learned.
We also need to replace Plumtree well as he has those forward working cracker and we need to make sure our defence and backs work better tactically and as a unit. Autumn internationals now will be very interesting

neilthom7 wrote:So what have we learned
Well we have learned that going from a weakness just a couple of years ago we now really have options in the front row who can do a good job.
Similar with the Locks really, Henderson playing well at lock was a bonus as he had really mostly played back row before for Ireland.
Back row is competitive with Rhyss Rudduck having a good game today and Diack throwing himself into contention it is now not just who will start in the back row that has people guessing but who will go to the world cup in it.
Halfback we learned nothing really other than Joe doesn't trust Madigan to start at the minute even as a test.
Centres we learned at this moment in time there is no fit or qualified player who can fill BOD role.  Cave is not a 12, McFadden is not a 13 and Cave and McFadden both out of position definately doesn't work.  Most likely now we will have Earls, Henshaw or Payne at 13 come 6 nations which of those guys it is, well your guess is as good as mine.
Zebo has been reinvented as a player Joe can now really get behind and has earned his way back into the squad by being much much better in defence and in general we have quality back 3 options.
So that's pretty much what we have learned.
We also need to replace Plumtree well as he has those forward working cracker and we need to make sure our defence and backs work better tactically and as a unit. Autumn internationals now will be very interesting

In the two games Zebo has played no different than he has all year...

That's what I meant though ME has had added defence this year which is something he was questionable over clearly Joe had questions over him in defence and maybe in attitude which Zebo with his season and these 2 performances has resoundingly responded too.

ME-109 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:So what have we learned
Well we have learned that going from a weakness just a couple of years ago we now really have options in the front row who can do a good job.
Similar with the Locks really, Henderson playing well at lock was a bonus as he had really mostly played back row before for Ireland.
Back row is competitive with Rhyss Rudduck having a good game today and Diack throwing himself into contention it is now not just who will start in the back row that has people guessing but who will go to the world cup in it.
Halfback we learned nothing really other than Joe doesn't trust Madigan to start at the minute even as a test.
Centres we learned at this moment in time there is no fit or qualified player who can fill BOD role.  Cave is not a 12, McFadden is not a 13 and Cave and McFadden both out of position definately doesn't work.  Most likely now we will have Earls, Henshaw or Payne at 13 come 6 nations which of those guys it is, well your guess is as good as mine.
Zebo has been reinvented as a player Joe can now really get behind and has earned his way back into the squad by being much much better in defence and in general we have quality back 3 options.
So that's pretty much what we have learned.
We also need to replace Plumtree well as he has those forward working cracker and we need to make sure our defence and backs work better tactically and as a unit. Autumn internationals now will be very interesting

In the two games Zebo has played no different than he has all year...

But he hasnt walked off when the coach was speaking to him..... Definitely an improvement on his last Irish camp.

Small steps 

Would say that Henderson and Zebo were the big winners from the tour. Would have liked to have seen more of Marmion. Marshall injured again. He seems to be racking up a lot of injuries for such a young man. I fear he might be in the Fitz or Earls category where he is perennially injured.

Other than that injuries got in the way of looking at other players. Madigan may have cemented his spot as an impact sub but not sure if hes any closer to Jackson as a second choice ten. I wouldnt say Cave has done enough to demand a start in the 2 major AIs either.

Didn't see the game was way too tired.

Doesn't sound like I missed all that much tbh. Gonna try and catch it during the week once it's on youtube. Sound like Zeebs did pretty well again and that there were quite a few Irish breaks but we didn't capitalise.

Did Marmion end up taking over Murray's bench spot?

Murray picked up a knock before the game apparently.

Ruddock did well, Zebo was pretty good, Henderson was good off the bench.
Other than that it was re-inforced that Cave doesn't have the gas, Ferg isn't a Test centre, and Madigan can't manage a game.

The Great Aukster wrote:Murray picked up a knock before the game apparently.

Ruddock did well, Zebo was pretty good, Henderson was good off the bench.
Other than that it was re-inforced that Cave doesn't have the gas, Ferg isn't a Test centre, and Madigan can't manage a game.

Jaysus.

So did Cave have a worse game than last week? He didn't look quick last week but he never got caught out and played well. I was hoping he'd be a real option at 13 for us.

Positives from the tour include Henderson, Sexton, our lineout and our scrum then really don't they?

I am fairly sure Ruddock is ahead of Murphy and Diack for that 5th spot in the back row, he has had an immense year. He owns the 6 shirt at Leinster, and when O'Brien returns it will be interesting to see where Murphy gets game time.

Heaslip, Henry, O'Mahony, O'Brien and Ruddock are all pretty versatile players as well. 3 are test standard 7s, 2-3 are test standard 8s and 3-4 are test standard 6s. All very good options to have.

The Great Aukster wrote:Murray picked up a knock before the game apparently.

Ruddock did well, Zebo was pretty good, Henderson was good off the bench.
Other than that it was re-inforced that Cave doesn't have the gas, Ferg isn't a Test centre, and Madigan can't manage a game.

We do all see different things.  Mostly I didn't see enough of anyting in either game to judge any player in any position enough to say what level they're at Internationally speaking or what 'certainty' list they might be on for a WC campaign.  I just didn't see anything approaching the levels of consistent intensity from any player to tell anything about how these guys would/will perform against full strength Australia or South Africa or England or France etc.

This game - Ruddock did well.  Zebo, just okay. (Has a lot of 'bouncability' in contact at tackle time - makes contact but can bounce away which can be worrying when you need tiger holder-on-ers)  Cave, jury out (Some players can actually play better against better sides.  Argentina were sticky, sticky, sticky!  I'd still like to see him against tougher opponents)  Ferg - same as Cave, jury still out.  Madigan - I'd have him in the mix come WC.  Has a factor that can change the mood of the players around him.

I'll say only this.  Given how we played for the two games, it seems apparent to me that players were under strict conditions and were out to prove distinct individual qualities and concentrate of specific areas.  So you can't really blame players for perhaps being more restricted and contained in their ambitions.  They had blueprints to follow and I'm sure most of them passed their exams.  I just hope now that Schmidt and his coaches have learned enough to choose wisely in the Autumn, and have plans ready to put all the pieces of the confusing jigsaw together into a much more fluidly ambitious whole and put it up to our guests then.

But we all see different things here...as this thread will certainly highlight when people read through it!

Cave does look like an option at 13 based on last week. He looks like no kind of option at 12 at all. Defending at 12 is different as is attacking. Shoehorning him into 12 when we have Marshall and Olding at the same province will never be the best long-term option. He was unlucky not to score a try, and yeah a faster or stronger player would have finished it, but in general he looked like he didn't know the role and he didn't know the men outside and inside him- the same thing I'd say about McFadden.

The difference having Luke Marshall at 12 made to the midfield last week was massive, being a guy who plays that position week in and week out, even though he didn't play that well. He has been drilled to combine with Sexton over the last year in various Ireland camps and he knows Cave very well too. The lack of fluency caused by having so many guys out injured in the midfield was inevitable but disappointing.

As for McFadden, he should stick to the wing. His style of play works there, it doesn't work in the centre. Too head down.

Cave is a decent player but was stopped short of scoring a try because he just didn't have enough pace. Joe obviously appreciates Cave's defensive and distribution qualities so is giving him every chance by trying him at 12, but there is little enough pace in the backs as it is so Cave's place will always be under threat.

This Pace thing.  It's an important one but I think we often approach it all wrong in Ireland.

Sprinters are probably born, yes.  Yes, I'll concede that.  But sprinters don't win gold unless they train - specialty training - and improve on what nature gave them.

We talk of pace when we talk of Ireland.  We say Zebo has bundles of pace.  We say others are limited by their lack of pace.  We do realise that someone like George North gets specialised sprint coaching, don't we?  He just doesn't turn up knowing he's fast and cut lose.  He's had technique training.  We do realise that other sides use specialised coaches to improve areas that can be improved?

I've been at this for years.  Yes we're limited by numbers but less so are we limited by the investment we might add to usual rugby preparations - especially for International potential players.  I look at Irish players and so many of them would gain absolutely essential percentage point improvements by simply being seriously coached in sprinting/running techniques that can add enough to make real inroads into overall Irish performances.
We don't have the numbers to simply keep dropping players considered too slow and either wait for faster players to be born or simply pick faster ones who mightn't have sufficient abilites to make the extra pace count.
Quicken up good players - scientifically - rather than choose fast players who may not have the rugby brains.

Have Ireland any sprint coaches involved with Irish International squads or coming in at certain times in the year to improve Individual player techniques?  If we do then I'm wrong - again.  But I'd like to know because I see lack of technique in many Irish Internationals - and it does lose us vital seconds and it does make the difference between escaping and being caught.

SecretFly wrote:

This game - Ruddock did well. Zebo, just okay. (Has a lot of 'bouncability' in contact at tackle time - makes contact but can bounce away which can be worrying when you need tiger holder-on-ers)  Cave, jury out (Some players can actually play better against better sides.  Argentina were sticky, sticky, sticky!  I'd still like to see him against tougher opponents)  Ferg - same as Cave, jury still out.  Madigan - I'd have him in the mix come WC.  Has a factor that can change the mood of the players around him.

I really don't get you Fly, Zebo has been very good on this tour. He has proven, to his many doubters, that he is not an issue defensively and yet you still try and find fault with him... He hits rucks like a flanker, has speed and agility in attack and runs some great lines. People are saying that JS is getting him to play better, well he has not played any differently than he has all season.

Your comments about him really confuse me.

They confuse me too... I'm not his greatest critic Nachos.  To get that out of the way for a start.  I think he has great potential for us - ironically in his prefered way too! - ie, attacking.  I joke about the homework he has to get through first, and in Joe's system it does have to be done because we're told we have to be ruthless about the technical stuff first before the more freeform instinctive things Zebo might prefer doing.

So when I talk about his bounceability it's not to try to pin something on him but just a result of my observations of him.  Some players - and I don't know why it is - either muscle composition or the kind of muscle they develop that suits their particular skills - but for whatever reason some players seem to bounce more in contact than others.  Some players sink into their opponents - other are liable to bounce off or away from them.  Am I blaming technique?  Not so certain.  Truth is I don't know, but I see what I see and I think it can sometimes be the very reason some players are 'known' tackle freaks and others are known as lightweight.  It might not be the players fault but simply their bodily composition.  If I had enough money I'd fund a medical study into it!!!!   

Fionn Carr is another player who seems to bounce when hit  And it's not such a coincidence that he's another noted fast twitch muscled zipper.   Sorry, can't do nothing about the comic nature of it.  I'm just observing, that's all.

Its just amazing to me Fly that you claim that he is a defensive issue and yet when he makes all his tackles and you cant have a go at him for that, you then invent that he bounces in tackles (even though he is very secure and during this tour, even held up a player winning a turnover)...

You invent new ways to criticise Zebo every day, its actually impressive. I cant wait for the new one

Nachos Jones wrote:Its just amazing to me Fly that you claim that he is a defensive issue and yet when he makes all his tackles and you cant have a go at him for that, you then invent that he bounces in tackles (even though he is very secure and during this tour, even held up a player winning a turnover)...

You invent new ways to criticise Zebo every day, its actually impressive. I cant wait for the new one

Inventing nothing.  Watch it.   It exists.  My dissertation should be ready in two years for my MA.

How many times do I have to say it?  And I've said it often enough.  Zebo as part of the Irish set-up - fine with it.  Looking forward to it actually IF we play the kind of biting attacking game that could most benefit from his skillset.

Now - having stated that publically on many occasions - why oh why would I be trying to kill him off by inventing some of his bad bits to downgrade him?  It ain't logical.  Your angle of because I'm a Leinster guy that I'm only out to get Zebo dropped is illogical since I very much want him.

BUT..he isn't above criticsim.  He ain't no God.  He'll get what I often give Heaslip, what I often give Rob Kearney, what I often have given Bowe, what I often gave Fitzgerald.  He ain't God.  And I didn't even fully blame him for this one I mentioned here.   

But it happens.  You just don't watch closely enough.  You guys only look for normal things.... look for why things happen rather than how many times things happen (as in stats) and we might invent a new way of post-match chat-shyte analysing

Sorry Fly but every time you get proven wrong in regards to Zebo, another little gem emerges for you to criticise him on. Its clear to be seen in all the threads. Nothing wrong with it, I just find it comical.

You could just be a hyper critical person, I don't know but your musings on Zebo are comedy gold. Keep it up

I don't really care if you are a Lienster fan, not brought it into this because that discussion bores me.

Well I know for a fact that senior Irish international backs like Trimble and also Ulster players get specialist coaching in sprinting, tailored specifically towards rugby. So that one is very easy to answer Fly- yes, they do. They do sessions working on speed and if you look hard enough you can probably find them referring to it in interviews etc. Everything you're suggesting should happen- already happens. I know this through work.

Nachos Jones wrote:Sorry Fly but every time you get proven wrong in regards to Zebo, another little gem emerges for you to criticise him on. Its clear to be seen in all the threads. Nothing wrong with it, I just find it comical.

You could just be a hyper critical person, I don't know but your musings on Zebo are comedy gold. Keep it up

I don't really care if you are a Lienster fan, not brought it into this because that discussion bores me.

Well you seem to think it's natural I'd be anti-Zebo?  Why would I be anti-Zebo?  Well, it's known I'm from Leinster. That's the only thing that could hit you as proof.  All Anti-Zebo people are either from Leinster or Ulster.  It's known at the UN.  They talk about it in the European Parliament.  Putin likes it that Zebo picks up the flak from Leinster snobs.

You confuse me plenty though in real terms.  DOD knows me better.  Ask him how much of me to take serious - as in the anti Zebo stuff - and how much you dispense it as just me having fun with the MunsterVLeinster shyte that goes down so well in these parts.

Unlike Sin and DOD, I think you maybe take this Munster v Leinster guff a little too seriously.  In that you believe too much in the reality of the fantasy world that is the war between our Provinces.

Zebo, I like.  Defence still isn't his biggest selling point with me though.  True. I admit that. Day I'm fully impressed I'll say so. But it's actually not the part of his game that I concentrate on anyway. I'd buy Zebo for his attack.  And I'd ensure I'd put an attacking gameplan around him (that is not running blindly at walls over and over and over as a team - and a tad more offloading too!!!)  So I'd help him out by having an attack gameplan around him but defending isn't what I'd buy him for.  That's me being serious.  The fun bit is I think he needs to do a lot more ruck hitting to prove himself.

Notch wrote:Well I know for a fact that senior Irish international backs like Trimble and also Ulster players get specialist coaching in sprinting, tailored specifically towards rugby. So that one is very easy to answer Fly- yes, they do. They do sessions working on speed and if you look hard enough you can probably find them referring to it in interviews etc. Everything you're suggesting should happen- already happens. I know this through work.

How pertinent you say that!!!  how pointed...................because of all Provinces, that's the Garland of honour I'd land on Ulster's head.  They're the ones that look like they've done a lot of work there - more than the others anyway - actually Connacht look not shabby either.  But nope, I don't see evidence of it being mimiced too much in the other two.  Evidence of my eyes again.  But yes...I'd drop an honourable mention to Ulster for technique through the ranks.

Plus, if you could, I'd like the names of the coach/coaches who might do the sprint stuff with Ireland? if you know that is. It's okay if you don't. I'm not asking annyone to do my research for me.

The Strength and Conditioning coaches at the provinces would look after that. They are highly qualified individuals- you can find the info on the Ulster website.

I am a little disappointed in your response Fly, I never brought Leinster or Munster into it, you did but just like your inventing of criticisms of Zebo, you attempt to paint me in a bad way by claiming as such. Expected more of you to be honest.

I was simply focussing in your comments about Zebo the last few months and the fact that you have been proven to be wrong time and time again but only to find new ways in which to criticise him. Nothing to do with Munster or Leinster.

Keep it up though, you are entertaining

Yeah Notch... but has Ireland any ex-Olympic standard sprinters/coaches turning up for sessions?  
I know Strength and Conditioning guys have a general all round appreciation of the rudiments of getting people to certain levels but I mean finding moments for true dedicated specialised sprint coaches to do sessions.  I see some prominent guys running (no names) who've evidently never met a dedicated coach because the energy they're using to propel themselves is all wrong and coming from the wrong areas.  They're impeding their speed potential rather than enhancing it.  If these guys were meeting true specialised coaches their poise would be getting corrected.

Nachos Jones wrote:I am a little disappointed in your response Fly, I never brought Leinster or Munster into it, you did but just like your inventing of criticisms of Zebo, you attempt to paint me in a bad way by claiming as such. Expected more of you to be honest.

I was simply focussing in your comments about Zebo the last few months and the fact that you have been proven to be wrong time and time again but only to find new ways in which to criticise him. Nothing to do with Munster or Leinster.

Keep it up though, you are entertaining

Point out where I'm being constantly wrong???  That's the homework I have for you  Point out all these embarrassing wrong moments - and isolate these seriously wrong moments from the usual bullsyhte I speak when engaging with Sin and DOD.  

You know the kind of shyte I'm on about?? The kind DOD gets up to with his Headmaster Schmidt gig and his ruck hitting schmaltz as it relates to Zebo.  That's a long running in-joke in this place.  I don't know how often you pop in Nachos.  Not as often as Sin and DOD and not as often as me.  Zebo and the Schmidt fixation for 'ruck-hitting' is a long running joke - that certainly myself and DOD know only too well as he jabs with his lines and I jab with mine.  A comedy act of sorts to stave off the long moments in these pages when nothing much is happening and no games are getting played.

I tire rapidly of pre-game stats and endless discussions about who should play where.  Others like that stuff, I don't.  I bore very quickly with the who should be left wing stuff.  So to offset the boredom I engage with DOD and others sometime in a little rugby relative humour.

I don't paint you as a bad guy at all - you're another Munster guy I could kick a lot of fun out of actually.  I tend to actually enjoy the Munster guys mostly - they're witty and fun and their 'dour seriousness' is sometimes a very funny feint that many in here don't often get.  But I do and I enjoy the banter.  So no, you're a guy I could warm to easily.  Myself and DOD had some dodgy early moments when we were trying to 'get' each other.  I think we get each other now and we can have some nice dry-humour battles.

So.  No..my point to you is that you take my Zebo stuff much too seriously.  You'd have to know me better to be able to isolate the shyte from the serious stuff.  However, maybe I'm wrong there too!  Plenty people know me long enough and stiull can't isolate the two

Anyway, Schmidt must be seriously peed off that the two 'unpredictables' (Madser & Zeebs) saved his skin.   

Well, the Zebo try was the definition of a Schmidt try. It was from a pre-planned backs move they attempted several times in the game and has been used before with different personnel.

I would just like to disassociate myself from Flys comments. I do take the Leinster/Munster thing seriously and feel that his comments do a disservice to the age old Irish thing of disliking the other crowd. In fact in terms of prejudice I would like to point out the following...

Provinces I dislike....Leinster/Ulster (mainly Leinster as they are West Brits, Ulster because they dont know any better).

Counties I dislike in particular order (Hurling)...Tipperary because they think they are good at Hurling but are a complete waste of space. Waterford because even when they are good they still fall apart to kilkenny and are a bunch of thugs. Clare because of Davy Fitz....

Football - Kerry...nuff said.

Cork People who think "cork is the real capital like boy" because they have a complete lack of imagination.

People I feel sorry for... Dubs - imagine all those culchies/foreigners invading your city...best thing about Cork we dont allow them. Limerick people...Rugby its all they have god bless em. Plus the fact they go on about it being the peoples game even though its probably more middle class there than anywhere else. Connacht people in general....just really sad. Donegal...cos they are completely mad and dont realise it. Anyone from the midlands cos its just a place to go through to get somewhere else.

Special shout out to Wesht Cork people (Kerrymen with shoes) and Northside Corkcity....stop joyriding...

That is all

Notch wrote:Well, the Zebo try was the definition of a Schmidt try. It was from a pre-planned backs move they attempted several times in the game and has been used before with different personnel.

I was thinking more of his pace which made him able to make a try saving tackle that the likes of Dave Kearney (and the rest out there on Sat could only dream of making).

Fly, your comments on pace. There are plenty of Irish players who have had it - can't believe you have forgotten Denis Hickie for starters. Zebo's father coaches in one of the athletics clubs in Cork so I'd imagine that Simon has had coaching.

DOD, I love Cork people.

Up Tipp.

That. is. all.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Well, the Zebo try was the definition of a Schmidt try. It was from a pre-planned backs move they attempted several times in the game and has been used before with different personnel.

I was thinking more of his pace which made him able to make a try saving tackle that the likes of Dave Kearney (and the rest out there on Sat could only dream of making).

Fly, your comments on pace. There are plenty of Irish players who have had it - can't believe you have forgotten Denis Hickie for starters. Zebo's father coaches in one of the athletics clubs in Cork so I'd imagine that Simon has had coaching.

Aye, you might have been thinking it. But it's not what you were alluding too when you said that though.

So, I was thinking of Zebo's try saving tackle but alluding to something else.

Like what?

Zebo's defence has been heavily criticised (or we were lead to believe that Schmidt wasn't happy with it). There was never any doubt about him going forward. His workrate was even criticised as well, when anyone who wanted to see he was covering every blade of grass. Schmidt was initially critical of him after the first test (while making excuses for Trimble & Cave), his default position.

Man there is a lot of wading through the provincial puddles to be done here!

I still allude to that really bad decision of Zebos to come in off the wing on that 5m scrum. No idea why a player would make that decision.

That being said, he runs so flipping well, he has a canon in his left boot, he has good footwork and has upped his workrate. I'm not sure he warrants being first choice the way Trimble does but he is going to be in the mix for that left wing slot. Would love to have seen him played some at 15 on this tour as he has done so for Munster and looks class there IMO. Gives him so much more room to do his thing and Kearney needs competition (and a backup if he gets injured - god only knows where Payne is gonna slot in).

I don't think Zeeb's defense is good in the way Fitzgerald's or Bowe's or D.Kearney's is but it has improved fo sho.