Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

This tour hasn't changed my view as to who are our best players. Its been a bad tour for Cave, McFadden & Luke Marshall. I was watching the All Blacks & England on Saturday - Cave just doesn't have the pace to live with those guys.

For the world cup, my pick of outside backs has not changed - best all over if fit - 3 from Zebo, Earls, Bowe, Luke Fitz & Kearney (all first choice). Payne, Trimble & Kearney Junior to be back-up.

I still think Earls will probably end up as the outside centre as it is far too early for Henshaw.

Sin é wrote:This tour hasn't changed my view as to who are our best players. Its been a bad tour for Cave, McFadden & Luke Marshall. I was watching the All Blacks & England on Saturday - Cave just doesn't have the pace to live with those guys.

For the world cup, my pick of outside backs has not changed - best all over if fit - 3 from Zebo, Earls, Bowe, Luke Fitz & Kearney (all first choice). Payne, Trimble & Kearney Junior to be back-up.

I still think Earls will probably end up as the outside centre as it is far too early for Henshaw.

Mucho astute Sin.  This tour was a little pointless in unearthing players that might undo a South Africa or even England for that matter, not even mentioning the ABs (oh I just did).  
But seriously, I think Schmidt's final words kinda makes me think he now feels the same and is panicing a little.  A lot still to learn and weakened Argentina (all respect due to them for putting up their fight of course!) wasn't anything like the opposition that should have been produced for us a year out from the World Cup.  Nope, Schmidt could do nothing about that but he learned little as a result.  The little learned being that he has a lot to do and is noting the vast difference between 6N Ireland and the one that showed up fretting, puffing and floundering in Argentina.  We have to have more than one version/team of Ireland that is truly ready to rumble in WC.  Right now, we don't.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Well, the Zebo try was the definition of a Schmidt try. It was from a pre-planned backs move they attempted several times in the game and has been used before with different personnel.

I was thinking more of his pace which made him able to make a try saving tackle that the likes of Dave Kearney (and the rest out there on Sat could only dream of making).

Fly, your comments on pace. There are plenty of Irish players who have had it - can't believe you have forgotten Denis Hickie for starters. Zebo's father coaches in one of the athletics clubs in Cork so I'd imagine that Simon has had coaching.

Zebo ain't short of it though... neither was Denis (AH...Denis, Denis, why did you end it too early? you could'a been somebody, you could'a shared the field with Isa).
But they ain't the guys I'm talking about. Anyway...my point was pace enhanced by proper technique - not suggesting natural pace isn't there or that some don't simply know how to do it naturally. Pace enhanced by proper technique was my point and certainly there are players who could benefit from better technique.

Sin é wrote:This tour hasn't changed my view as to who are our best players. Its been a bad tour for Cave, McFadden & Luke Marshall. I was watching the All Blacks & England on Saturday - Cave just doesn't have the pace to live with those guys.

Yeah I think you have a point actually but think Cave did best out of the three, To be honest the most impressive Irish outside centre I've seen in the last few weeks is that Ringrose lad in the U-20s.

I think it was a decent tour - Schmidt and Kiss will be disappointed with the backs, particularly in defence where McFadden, Trimble and Sexton will be having nightmares about that big pumas no 11 for some time.

Nobody put their hands up in midfield which gives Henshaw and Payne a chance in the Autumn - I think Bowe is in the equation too. There isn't much time before the RWC so for me it looks like D'arcy plus A.N. Other.... I'm going with Payne or Bowe as Cave didn't take his chance on this tour.

Biggest plus was Henderson for me - Diack and Ruddock were solid too. Zebo and Trimble did ok as well and probably did enough to retain the starting wing spots.

Watching some of the other games there is a gap starting to open between NZ,SA, England and the rest, with the latter two looking monstrous at senior and U-20s level. Behind that we don't look too shabby but have a fair bit to work on to keep pace with the big boys....even the ABs are just about hanging in there.

The Great Aukster wrote:Cave is a decent player but was stopped short of scoring a try because he just didn't have enough pace. Joe obviously appreciates Cave's defensive and distribution qualities so is giving him every chance by trying him at 12, but there is little enough pace in the backs as it is so Cave's place will always be under threat.

I agree. Another problem with Cave is his lack of fitness and conditioning at this level. If you watch his tracking back when there is a line break he is really poor and he's constantly gasping for air when the pace picks up. These are things he can work on but he needs to work quick.

If you could combine Caves footballing ability with McFadden's work rate and energy and Earls pace you'd have an international quality outside centre but for me individually they all have too many cracks in their games to cut it against the best.

rodders wrote:

If you could combine Caves footballing ability with McFadden's work rate and energy and Earls pace you'd have an international quality outside centre. 

That's high science rodders and years off from perfecting yet...and expensive!!  So in the absense of the Molecular Porridge Personality Extractor which of those guys would get the shirt?  

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

If you could combine Caves footballing ability with McFadden's work rate and energy and Earls pace you'd have an international quality outside centre. 

That's high science rodders and years off from perfecting yet...and expensive!!  So in the absense of the Molecular Porridge Personality Extractor which of those guys would get the shirt?  

Payne, Bowe, Henshaw or Ringrose.

I see a lot of comment that Argentina was a poor choice for a trip. And that we can only progress by playing the best. What ever happened to the perfect (it isn't all about the money and success) world touted so often on 606v2 where the top tier teams should make time for fixtures outside of the 6N and classic Tri-N tests? Schmidt will probably seek never to be in that position again and will look to have final say on Test opposition on future tours. This was lined up under DK's watch, Joe needs to learn from this tour as much as the players do.

We got the victories, we blooded further squad players.... and we found out that they aren't all wonderful and hype-matching even when playing what was in the end mediocre opposition.

Zebo did what was expected.
Henderson solidified his position and is the heir to POC's throne.
Diack put in a solid shift but is in a highly competitive squad position.
Henry was solid.
Heaslip was poor by his standards.
Ruddock was surprisingly good.
Madigan is basically now where he was 12 months ago. There has been no progression at provincial or international level in the last year.
Cave did ok but the biggest slight against him for the 13 jersey was in seeing McFadden take over the position for the second test.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Cave did ok but the biggest slight against him for the 13 jersey was in seeing McFadden take over the position for the second test.

No I think Joe always had him pencilled in to start at 12 and to give McFadden a run at outside centre. I wouldn't read too much into that.

Agree with your other points though.

If the main goal was to find a centre combination on this tour then it wasn't particularly successful, other than to eliminate a few options.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I see a lot of comment that Argentina was a poor choice for a trip.  And that we can only progress by playing the best.  What ever happened to the perfect (it isn't all about the money and success) world touted so often on 606v2 where the top tier teams should make time for fixtures outside of the 6N and classic Tri-N tests?

Nothing at all wrong with the concept that is so often touted on 606v2.  But maybe you didn't hear that the 2nd tier side (if that's what 9th placed Argentina is supposed to be) didn't turn up to honour the idea.  And a rather similar incident occurred with the Emerging Irish boys - they show up to do duty to the concept of helping little folks out (if Russia can ever be called such with its loot) - like the IRB want us to do - and it's Russia that dishonour the arrangement by sending in their 'Emerging' players too.  That's not how it was meant to be, folks!  You ain't getting the idea right Russia!

I respect Argentina's rights, they have an important Championship coming up - but given that their main players need the exposure and SA, Australia and New Zealand are already playing to limber up for that Championship, I don't see the rationale of resting players against Ireland.

Ireland could have done with Argentina at their strongest.  That would have concentrated minds of Irish players, would have landed them in a much more serious fight and would have therefore been real testing territory that Schmidt could do some real thinking on.  

We're not a charity.  We have a World Cup to prepare for.  We're doing more than other NH nations in sending an Emerging Ireland now twice to Tier two competitions in two years.  We're doing our bit, but there is no reason why we should shoot ourselves in the foot by playing a National side that didn't turn up.

If we'd have played Argentina at their strongest we'd have been tonked.

This tour served it's purpose - we got the results and exposed a few fringe players to international rugby...some of them getting a good kick up the backside in the process.

Some of the senior players looked in desperate need of a rest - POC, Best, Henry, Heaslip and Trimble in particular... there were no major injuries so job done, roll on pre-season.

rodders wrote:If we'd have played Argentina at their strongest we'd have been tonked.

So be it - that's a much stronger wake up call about the levels you have to hit to get a shirt in this Ireland team.

It isn't a kindergarten. So we lose to a belligerent physical Argentina? So be it. Schmidt would have been possibly happier because at least he'd have a genuine health check on probables.
His words - and I'm glad he finally came out with them because I was beginning to wonder about him - suggests he doesn't feel comfortable because he genuinely hasn't learned enough. Thanks Argentina, for the kick around and the trophy. Same time next year?

Well he learned our backline defence minus D'arcy and O'Driscoll is all over the shop.

He learned that none of the centre combinations looked up to scratch, that Zebo brings something extra to the left wing, Madigan to midfield - that Diack is an option in the  backrow and that Henderson if fast becoming a top class lock.

That's not bad for 2 games even if you have to take the results with a pinch of salt.

Positives for me
Henderson - Just looks better every game. Needs to concentrate on 2nd row and not be considered for 6
Ruddock - I thought he was awesome on Saturday. Massive yards, breaking and making tackles - excellent line out option
Best -  Don't know about sprint training but think he must have consulted with Phil the Power on the darts front
Kilcoyne - Great shift on Saturday

Most of the rest played at an adequate level with Cave mixing some very good with very poor over the two games.
Heaslip looked disinterested and really needs to be put under a bit of pressure for his place. Had the ball ripped off him like a child in contact.

Sin é wrote:So, I was thinking of Zebo's try saving tackle but alluding to something else.

Like what?

Zebo's defence has been heavily criticised (or we were lead to believe that Schmidt wasn't happy with it). There was never any doubt about him going forward. His workrate was even criticised as well, when anyone who wanted to see he was covering every blade of grass. Schmidt was initially critical of him after the first test (while making excuses for Trimble & Cave), his default position.

Yeah it was good in the 1st Test bar one glaring error and excellent in the 2nd Test,glad to see that he listened to Schmidt and worked on it   .When was Schmidt critical of him after the first game,as I remember it he said he was alright before reviewing the tape thoroughly and then giving him a lot of praise.

I think we learned something else - that O'Connell looks increasing isolated as captain, a man at odds with his coach and vice captains, Bestis apart, minus his old mate Drico and his fellow Munster man O'Mahoney.

He looks a man apart -an old rocker at a rave. the rest of the set up has a very Leinster centric look about it but increasingly the spine of the side - Healy, Toner, Kearney, Heaslip, Sexton, McFadden Madigan etc. seem to be walking to a different beat to their captain.....

rodders wrote:

He learned that ..... Zebo brings something extra to the left wing, Madigan to midfield - that Diack is an option in the  backrow and that Henderson if fast becoming a top class lock.  

We learned all that stuff by playing two games against this Argentina?  
I'm easier on the players than all that, rodders.  

I think, honestly, we all knew what Zebo can bring to the left wing before he turned up in Argentina.  He's already worked there against better sides and in an Irish shirt too.  His issues, and we all spoke about them, was relationship issues based around perhaps disciplin, respect to the training methods in Irish camp and just keeping his concentration levels up when playing.  Nobody questioned his ability but questioned the reasons why Schmidt wasn't choosing him.

Madigan in midfield.  That might have been something the rest of you (outside provincials) didn't rate him on before Argentina but I'd guess Leinster (and some of their fans) rate him already....against tougher opposition than that Argentinian outfit.   The same with Henderson.  He's already been proving his potential...in places that didn't require proof against that Argentinian side.  Diack, - yep - I'll agree, he probably got a lift from the encounters in the mind of Joe.

But my point would be that these guys and the others didn't once do a fluid enough game to link any of the pieces into a hopeful whole.  The jury is still out on the pieces that Schmidt will have to go now and try to link up in some way to perhaps meet SA and Australia in the Autumn.  He's nervous about that. Me too.

rodders wrote:I think we learned something else - that O'Connell looks increasing isolated as captain, a man at odds with his coach and vice captains, Bestis apart, minus his old mate Drico and his fellow Munster man O'Mahoney.

He looks a man apart -an old rocker at a rave. the rest of the set up has a very Leinster centric look about it but increasingly the spine of the side - Healy, Toner, Kearney, Heaslip, Sexton, McFadden Madigan etc. seem to be walking to a different beat to their captain.....

Here was I shouting at the TV acutally accusing Schmidt was Munsterifying the team to make Paulie feel comfortable in Argentina!

Paulie - I don't think its so much a case of he feels out of place to the different 'beat' of the Leinsterised Ireland, I'd think it's more simply the fact that he can't hit those run-around levels anymore for extended periods in a season.  He was playing more a nurturing role - possibly even a little coaching role behind the scenes - to the new boys.  He knows the clock is ticking on his career and the demands of the fast game that Schmidt normally requires ain't getting easier to accomplish.  He simply - like BOD before him - feels the age gap developing and knows he's not as fresh legged as these young'uns.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

He learned that ..... Zebo brings something extra to the left wing, Madigan to midfield - that Diack is an option in the  backrow and that Henderson if fast becoming a top class lock.  

We learned all that stuff by playing two games against this Argentina?  
I'm easier on the players than all that, rodders.  

Yes we did and we have to learn it too because Joe now has to start nailing his colours to the mast with regards his RWC starting 23 - in fairness he's been very consistent in most positions and the wider squad - just a few combinations in the 3/4 line to determine.

There are a few training camps now and the provincial games to put the hand up for the Autumn and that's it. He has to narrow it to 3 centres and the players who start against SA and Australia really have to be the ones that see us through the 6N and RWC, bar injury.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:I think we learned something else - that O'Connell looks increasing isolated as captain, a man at odds with his coach and vice captains, Bestis apart, minus his old mate Drico and his fellow Munster man O'Mahoney.

He looks a man apart -an old rocker at a rave. the rest of the set up has a very Leinster centric look about it but increasingly the spine of the side - Healy, Toner, Kearney, Heaslip, Sexton, McFadden Madigan etc. seem to be walking to a different beat to their captain.....

Here was I shouting at the TV acutally accusing Schmidt was Munsterifying the team to make Paulie feel comfortable in Argentina!

Paulie - I don't think its so much a case of he feels out of place to the different 'beat' of the Leinsterised Ireland, I'd think it's more simply the fact that he can't hit those run-around levels anymore for extended periods in a season.  He was playing more a nurturing role - possibly even a little coaching role behind the scenes - to the new boys.  He knows the clock is ticking on his career and the demands of the fast game that Schmidt normally requires ain't getting easier to accomplish.  He simply - like BOD before him - feels the age gap developing and knows he's not as fresh legged as these young'uns.

I think it runs deeper - He and Heaslip aren't great buddies and there looks to be a split in that inner leadership core with Heaslip a more central figure and O'Connell looking a bit more isolated.

Officially O'Connell may wear the captains armband but its looking less and less that he is the heartbeat of the side or that he's still the go to guy. I think Schmidt sees Toner as his main lock, maybe Henderson too - mobile players with good hands.

O'Connell doesn't look to be a guy enjoying his rugby at the minute, he looks much happier at Munster. Increasingly he is making comments about players from the other provinces finding it hard to get used to the coaching style, which suggests he isn't that happy.

rodders wrote: He has to narrow it to 3 centres and the players who start against SA and Australia really have to be the ones that see us through the 6N and RWC, bar injury.

I agree.  

But that's his dilemma now. I feel he deep down doesn't trust some of the hopefuls to do the genuine job when genuinely asked to do it now in a genuine WC intense environment.  
He won't say such a thing openly but his after game words hinted strongly that he's feeling pressured now into beginning to select real WC squad players and doesn't feel he's in any way ready to make such decisions based on what he's seen.

He'll HAVE TO make those decisions, yes.  We all understand that one.  But he's feeling queasy about it.  For certain, he's feeling queasy...and that leads me to believe he might not be picking players some people now think are nailed on come Autumn.  I don't think he's nearly as satisfied by what he's seen as some of you guys seem to be.

I'll save Joe the hassle.... Joe your 3 centres are Cave, D'arcy and ..... Payne...I mean Bowe... I mean ...

...no one else need apply, Paddy Wallace should leave his phone on just in case... and Drico shouldn't dump his boots yet either.

rodders wrote:mobile players with good hands.

O'Connell doesn't look to be a guy enjoying his rugby at the minute, he looks much happier at Munster. Increasingly he is making comments about players from the other provinces finding it hard to get used to the coaching style, which suggests he isn't that happy.

But that's what I'm saying.  He's from Munster - Heaslip is from Leinster.  So be it.  I don't think it's really the issue.  The issue is POC is aging and part of a less mobile philosophy that both Ireland and Munster have used in the past (though I'd argue strongly against the idea that Munster never used power, speed and panache to win games!)  But POC is from there and Heaslip and his guys are from a younger generation and are more future than past - well, Heaslip is middling )
Look, BOD himself was beginning to feel out of place.  He admitted it - even with Leinster.  He wanted to end because his body and age told him he was losing influence and becoming the guy in the corner that did't know what shows the kids were watching the night before.  It happens.  He wanted to quit before the time came for coaches not to pick him.

I don't think its a Munster/Leinster thing - it's a generational gap kinda thing and the easing down of Influence of an aging player.  Though it would be a fool that would suggest he won't/couldn't have an absolute central [Captain's] role in victories in the Autumn.  There could be a lot of life in the old dog yet.  But like BOD, he'll have to be micro managed now if Schmidt wants to take him to the WC.  And for certain, Joe will.

rodders wrote:I'll save Joe the hassle.... Joe your 3 centres are Cave, D'arcy and ..... Payne...I mean Bowe... I mean ...

...no one else need apply, Paddy Wallace should leave his phone on just in case... and Drico shouldn't dump his boots yet either.

Payne is not qualified even to be mentioned!!!! He never did play a weakened Argentina twice yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Until he does, he's off the agenda.

i think this mobility issue with POC is pre mature. watch o'connell closely. he may not be a ball carrying threat but i is almost always one of the first players to reach a ruck for ireland, a safe option to pass to if you need to truck it up and we all konw what he is like in mauls, scrums and line outs. still one of our most important players

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:i think this mobility issue with POC is pre mature. watch o'connell closely. he may not be a ball carrying threat but i is almost always one of the first players to reach a ruck for ireland, a safe option to pass to if you need to truck it up and we all konw what he is like in mauls, scrums and line outs. still one of our most important players

He's a wise old coot is Paulie. Others chase rucks. he has enough experience to know where they'll be.

Paulie has publicly called out Munster players a number of times this past season, more so than usual.

Just because the turnip-munchers don't mix well with the jackeens and vice-versa doesn't mean the players don't get on. And even if they don't there are plenty of teams of every sport in every county across the country who hate the sight of each other off the field but play well together on the pitch. It ain't always provincial.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Paulie has publicly called out Munster players a number of times this past season, more so than usual.

Just because the turnip-munchers don't mix well with the jackeens and vice-versa doesn't mean the players don't get on.  And even if they don't there are plenty of teams of every sport in every county across the country who hate the sight of each other off the field but play well together on the pitch. It ain't always provincial.

Correct. I hate every poster here. I still talk to them And I know they're all delighted that I do........................    What's that? A pin falling in Tokyo.

How did McGrath get on when he was shifted to TH?

SecretFly wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Paulie has publicly called out Munster players a number of times this past season, more so than usual.

Just because the turnip-munchers don't mix well with the jackeens and vice-versa doesn't mean the players don't get on.  And even if they don't there are plenty of teams of every sport in every county across the country who hate the sight of each other off the field but play well together on the pitch. It ain't always provincial.

Correct.  I hate every poster here.  I still talk to them  And I know they're all delighted that I do........................     What's that?  A pin falling in Tokyo.  

   

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:i think this mobility issue with POC is pre mature. watch o'connell closely. he may not be a ball carrying threat but i is almost always one of the first players to reach a ruck for ireland, a safe option to pass to if you need to truck it up and we all konw what he is like in mauls, scrums and line outs. still one of our most important players

No no - that's not the point on O'Connell, physically he's still one of the most impressive players we have. He's not past it at all.

What I mean is he is struggling to adapt to the new coaching regime and set up.

I'll be blunt and say he is now a political pick as captain. Heaslip, Kearney and Sexton are now running the show and O'Connell and Best are looking more marginalized as leaders and on field generals.

Drico was the glue that held the younger Leinster-ites from Joes reign together with the old survivors from the golden generation.

rodders wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:i think this mobility issue with POC is pre mature. watch o'connell closely. he may not be a ball carrying threat but i is almost always one of the first players to reach a ruck for ireland, a safe option to pass to if you need to truck it up and we all konw what he is like in mauls, scrums and line outs. still one of our most important players

No no - that's not the point on O'Connell, physically he's still one of the most impressive players we have. He's not past it at all.

What I mean is he is struggling to adapt to the new coaching regime and set up.

I'll be blunt and say he is now a political pick as captain. Heaslip, Kearney and Sexton are now running the show and O'Connell and Best are looking more marginalized as leaders and on field generals.

Drico was the glue that held the younger Leinster-ites from Joes reign together with the old survivors from the golden generation.

If Ireland actually played more like Leinster I might have more sympathy for the view, rodders.  But we're all mostly rolling mauls, box kicks, multi-phase zig zag attack, and set-pieces.   Paulie is right at home.  He's acting angry to try and placate the people he has to go home to every night (well, when he's not sleeping in a hammock on tour that is)

His people require that he doesn't get on with the .................. other people.  

His wife meets him at the front door with a question on her lips and a pan in her hand:  "Did you talk to that filty conniving basteraud, Hislips?  You better not have small chatted any of them bollixes!!!!  I'm telling you, I'll know if you're lying to me - did you have any crack with Joe??!"

"No.  I hate the hoors, love....didn't ya see me scowling all the time on the camera and didn't I bring up Kidney in the interviews for Sin and all."

SecretFly wrote:"No.  I hate the hoors, love....didn't ya see me scowling all the time on the camera and didn't I bring up Kidney in the interviews for Sin and all."

LOVE IT

What is clear is that with Henshaw and Earls missing the games a major part of the reason for the tour was lost. Overall it was rather underwhelming in terms of the performances but before ASLS jumps all over me I should qualify that by saying its nothing to do with Joe.

To be honest trying to find positives out of the tour is hard to do. After seeing SA on Sat I would much rather we had the game against Georgia before them to get the players up to speed in the AI's...

For the AI's no change in the forwards (SOB for Henry excepted - possibly).
No change in half backs.
He might change DK for Zebo or maybe Earls.
Centres - who knows and its going to be a big issue.

In the U20's both Goggins and Ringrose look a decent partnership that could become important for us in the future....

How long is Henshaw out for?

Potential centre partnerships at the moment if all candidates fit

First choice
Darcy - Cave

If Darcy injured
Marshall - Cave

If Cave injured
Darcy - Earls

If both injured
Marshall - Earls

If Marshall and Earls also injured
Madigan - Henshaw

If Madigan and Henshaw injured
Sexton - Payne (Jackson 10)

Lots of permutations and combinations to be considered but i've based my summation on current positions in the squad, perceived fondness of Joe (Henshaw/Payne) previous playing experience (Earls). Based on that I think Darcy and Cave will be the preferred centre partnership for the AI's and beyond.
Too many injuries and lack of opportunity to the likes of Henshaw, Earls and to a lesser extent Marshall to stake a claim.
I know it's been touted before and I was never a supporter of the idea but with the cover now available to the back 3 I think it might be worth revisiting the Tommy Bowe to 13 campaign.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How long is Henshaw out for?

Not sure how long he's injured for but he'll be out of the XV until Payne and D'arcy retire that's for sure ...  

Submachine wrote:Potential centre partnerships at the moment if all candidates fit

Well if you look at guys who have either been selected or name checked by Joe so far and the fact he is keen to narrow the options, not widen at this stage then we can assume the partnership is going to be some combination of:-

12

D,arcy, Cave, Marshall, Reid

13

Cave, Payne , Henshaw, D'arcy, Madigan, Bowe, McFadden, Earls.

Cave and D'arcy are in both camps so are shoe ins for the 30.

McFadden will be in the squad to cover wing.

That means Payne or Henshaw will be covering fullback and 13.

Trimble, Zebo and/or Dave K will be the wings there for the only logical conclusion is Bowe or Madigan will be starting 13.

I think Olding-Henshaw will be the future. Not sure how distant that will be, but both were breaking into the Ireland squad before their injuries.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think Olding-Henshaw will be the future.  Not sure how distant that will be, but both were breaking into the Ireland squad before their injuries.

I agree 100% but don't believe either will make the RWC now.

I don't believe Earls or Luke Marshall will either so that narrows it a bit.

Olding didn't play two games against Argentina so he's off the list too.  Stop trying to slide these non-qualified guys onto the list, guys.  I won't stand for it.  No Argentina stamp on their passports and no show.

rodders wrote:

Submachine wrote:Potential centre partnerships at the moment if all candidates fit

Well if you look at guys who have either been selected or name checked by Joe so far and the fact he is keen to narrow the options, not widen at this stage then we can assume the partnership is going to be some combination of:-

12

D,arcy, Cave, Marshall, Reid

13

Cave, Payne , Henshaw, D'arcy, Madigan, Bowe, McFadden, Earls.

Cave and D'arcy are in both camps so are shoe ins for the 30.

McFadden will be in the squad to cover wing.

That means Payne or Henshaw will be covering fullback and 13.

Trimble, Zebo and/or Dave K will be the wings there for the only logical conclusion is Bowe or Madigan will be starting 13.

 

Sorry spock but your logic is a little illogical. If both Cave and Darcy are nailed on for the squad why won't they both start?

Because I decided mid way through the post that Cave isn't nailed on.....

rodders wrote:Because I decided mid way through the post that Cave isn't nailed on.....

And instantly relegated him to 3rd choice 13?

Earls will be one of the first on the WC squad list and more than probably the major absentee that destroyed Joe's well laid warplans for Argentina.

No, I'm not joking this time.  Joe looked pretty damn disappointed when he realised Earls wouldn't make it and said he'd be keen and was keen then before the tour to get him involved in the set-up sooner rather than later.  

Joe and Earls could be the boxoffice ticket for our assault on the WC.  Earls could excel under Joe.

Submachine wrote:

rodders wrote:Because I decided mid way through the post that Cave isn't nailed on.....

And instantly relegated him to 3rd choice 13?

Pretty much yeah.

If he goes it will be as 12 cover, but then I forgot about Madigan ... therefore his value is diminished if he takes D'arcy which he will. Assuming D'arcy plays 13 for Leinster next year alongside Madigan or Reid and Henshaw or Payne go then 13 is well covered.

Whoever gets picked will be the starting 13.

That to my mind can only be Payne, meaning having full back cover starting which isn't ideal and leaving Bow out altogether which won't go down well with the IRFU.

Therefore the logical assumption is that Bowe will play 13 alongside D'arcy or less likely Cave, with Madigan and/or Payne on the bench.

Can't see how Madigan and Payne could be on the same bench. Assuming Paddy Jackson rightly remains as back up 10 that only leaves one bench spot if you figure on 5 forwards and a scrumhalf filling the rest.
Cave got his shot in the first test at 13 on the back of a very good season for Ulster at 13. He did well in the first test, proved he is not a test 12 in the 2nd test and to me is in pole position for the jersey
I also think fly is right about Earls. He did ok at 13 for Ireland previously although he was criticised by many for some of the things he didn't do. Missed a couple of opportunities for overlaps etc. But, he did play in a very competitive 6 nations campaign where he was being criticised for not being BOD as much as on his own ability.
Post aBODalypse (it will work much better when O'Connell retires), if it wasn't for his run of injuries he would be a serious contender.

The reality is 12/13 is completely and utterly up in the air.
We have relied on D'Arcy BOD for so long we are having to reinvent ourselves.

D'Arcy, Marshall, Olding, Henshaw, Cave, McFadden, Payne, Bowe, Earls are all in with a shout both before and after the tour.
It is going to be a real challenged for Schmidt to find the best combination.

If all fit and playing well I'd say he'll go for D'Arcy - Bowe if a WC match was tomorrow.
Olding - Henshaw have the most naturally ability to challenge but they also the most inexperienced

Its going to be an interesting 15 months.
I maintain both Payne and Earls are better players in other positions
Their remain question marks against Marshall, Cave and McFadden this tour hasn't dispelled those question marks

Sorry to digress but just glanced up at the Iran Nigeria world cup game and they panned across the crowd...there was some feicer in a Tipperary geansai....Sin É did you get lost going home from the Tipp/Limerick game?

In fairness ME-109 that's quite a wrong turn somebody really should have read the map or at least noted the weather was unusual lol
Biggest question though is if you come all the way from Ireland to Brazil why would you chose Iran v Nigeria as the game to watch