Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

Jaaysus man. I used to enjoy your banter. although you go over the top sometimes I thought most of it was tongue in cheek. But this above is just immature rubbish.

It's unbelievable Sub. Incredibly unpleasant and unfair.

I note you have not come up with a rationale (or a link) to why TOD didn't make the 23 (not even a travelling sub) for the games after the England game in the 6Ns.

Why do I need to? I've already said there's nothing between him and Jordi Murphy in terms of quality and I have zero problems with either of them.

You need to because that distracts from the original point that he is spreading a rumour he has no way of backing up.If he can change the discussion into something else (this is a standard tactic for Sin) then he doesn't look so obviously nasty and bitter.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

Jaaysus man. I used to enjoy your banter. although you go over the top sometimes I thought most of it was tongue in cheek. But this above is just immature rubbish.

It's unbelievable Sub. Incredibly unpleasant and unfair.

I note you have not come up with a rationale (or a link) to why TOD didn't make the 23 (not even a travelling sub) for the games after the England game in the 6Ns.

Geoff, I don't exactly know when Kiss said there were issues with TOD's defence (except it was some time during the 6Nations and it was in some newspaper interview with Kiss).

I really couldn't be bothered to look for it, but for the really curious I'm sure there will be links to it on Munsterfans.

I remember the press conference you are talking about,Kiss mentioned the management weren't completely happy with the defense of the team when the subs came on.He never singled out ToD .

Les Kiss wrote:“We’ve had a big focus on making sure our reserves and subs have to be well prepared, have to be on top of a game to close it out,” Kiss said today.

“I think they’ve improved. Against Scotland we were pretty efficient. Last game out against Wales there was some good impact, but the truth is, we still have seven or eight defensive system errors with out reserves and we need that to improve.

“You can not afford to come on a pitch and give the opposition a bit of an option, particularly in a tight game.

“It’s still a big focus for us. The fact we’ve done well in the last two doesn’t guarantee us [anything]. We need to be on the ball and our subs are an integral part of making sure we have the right kind of damage we want to do the opposition, but still making sure that we’re still running the plan and the system as we would plan to.”

Here's the link where I got that quote http://sport.ie.msn.com/rugby/kiss-calls-on-replacements-to-do-%E2%80%98the-right-kind-of-damage%E2%80%99-on-organised-england

Now I'm not entirely sure but I think that interview was given before the squad was named so it wasn't even a quote in relation to ToD.I found that article with one Google search,if the quote you claim Kiss made about ToD really existed then it would be similarly easy to find,but funny enough it isn't.

Sin é wrote:Zebo has a very, laid back attitude which may come from his father's caribeean heritage which would seem to be why Zebo may not be appreciated in some circles.

Sorry but this is racial stereotyping. His attitude may just as readily have come from his mother's side or from his teacher or coach or what he believes or watches or reads or listens to, or, or...

Please don't attribute your prejudices to unnamed figures/players/circles who supposedly want him excluded. The last two games I could have sworn he was INCLUDED on my TV - he looked just like an Ireland player. Perhaps you should adjust your contrast button as rugby is better when it's not reduced to black and white.

Wow, this thread has really taken a turn for the worse.

Zebos laid back attitude is because he is from Cork and therefore has god like qualities given he was a dacent hurler as well like!!!

Sin é wrote:

So its fine for you to speculate that BOD can be harsh on young player's behaviour (I've never seen any evidence of this - quite the contrary to this to be hones with regard to Zebo if you watch the clip of BOD & Zebo meeting at the elevator with BOD). I think BOD got on extremely well with a lot of players - jesus he even gets on with Jonathan Sexton who is notoriously difficult to get on with.

In fairness to the players, lots of them have got into trouble for some of the stuff they have done - I'd be shocked if any of them would condemn Zebo for that (there but for the grace of god goes i syndrome). Murray was equally culpable and he hasn't been dropped - in fact I'd say Murray is Schmidt most indespensible player at the moment and it would be very hypocritical of Schmidt to select Murray and drop Zebo if you are going on behaviour last summer.

Penney, Zebo's Munster coach has also stood up for Zebo, so I would say - anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

Fair enough I did say "this might all be pie in the sky". I only used BOD as an example as he has been known to give the hairdryer treatment to players not performing to the standards he expects on the pitch (credited with engendering a culture of high performance and professionalism at his club) or behaving themselves off it (e.g. 2 younger Leinster players who verbally abused and threatened a young Connacht player in a nightclub two years ago). But he is not relevant to this discussion, for all we know he gets on famously with Zebo.

Not sure why your point on Murray is relevant though, I said there were several incidents last summer with the menage-a-trois being just one. Like you yourself pointed out, plenty of the players have misbehaved off the pitch. However, Murray didn't play the USA or embarrass a teammate in a Lions game by telling him "time's up, kick it out" with 30 seconds on the clock.

I feel I should point out (again) that I am aware that this is speculative, I don't have an inside man any more than you do. I just find it interesting that elements of fans from our southern province consistently tend towards conspiracy theories. Personally, with the options available, I thought Zebo merited a start in the last 6 Nations based on ability. As for Penney, the Munster management are not the Ireland management.

I'll ignore your last comment.

I think we're making a big deal of who gets on with who. They're grown men! In any group you'll have similar personalities who get on better and personalities that clash. As long as they act like men and not b!tchy girls they'll be fine.

Paul O'Connell, passing notes in training when Joe isn't looking. One day everyone waits for Mike Ross to sit down at lunch then they all get up and move to different tables. Rory Best and his clique of hot cheerleaders.

Its all the rage if Munsterfans is to believed

Notch wrote:Paul O'Connell, passing notes in training when Joe isn't looking. One day everyone waits for Mike Ross to sit down at lunch then they all get up and move to different tables. Rory Best and his clique of hot cheerleaders.

Its all the rage if Munsterfans is to believed

You had me until the last bit,jumped the shark with that one.A big Nordie farmer/hooker and hot cheerleaders,never gonna happen.You should have said Trimble.

Pfffff, Bestie be pimpin'

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

Jaaysus man. I used to enjoy your banter. although you go over the top sometimes I thought most of it was tongue in cheek. But this above is just immature rubbish.

It's unbelievable Sub. Incredibly unpleasant and unfair.

I note you have not come up with a rationale (or a link) to why TOD didn't make the 23 (not even a travelling sub) for the games after the England game in the 6Ns.

Geoff, I don't exactly know when Kiss said there were issues with TOD's defence (except it was some time during the 6Nations and it was in some newspaper interview with Kiss).

I really couldn't be bothered to look for it, but for the really curious I'm sure there will be links to it on Munsterfans.

I remember the press conference you are talking about,Kiss mentioned the management weren't completely happy with the defense of the team when the subs came on.He never singled out ToD .  

Les Kiss wrote:“We’ve had a big focus on making sure our reserves and subs have to be well prepared, have to be on top of a game to close it out,” Kiss said today.

“I think they’ve improved. Against Scotland we were pretty efficient. Last game out against Wales there was some good impact, but the truth is, we still have seven or eight defensive system errors with out reserves and we need that to improve.

“You can not afford to come on a pitch and give the opposition a bit of an option, particularly in a tight game.

“It’s still a big focus for us. The fact we’ve done well in the last two doesn’t guarantee us [anything]. We need to be on the ball and our subs are an integral part of making sure we have the right kind of damage we want to do the opposition, but still making sure that we’re still running the plan and the system as we would plan to.”

Here's the link where I got that quote http://sport.ie.msn.com/rugby/kiss-calls-on-replacements-to-do-%E2%80%98the-right-kind-of-damage%E2%80%99-on-organised-england

Now I'm not entirely sure but I think that interview was given before the squad was named so it wasn't even a quote in relation to ToD.I found that article with one Google search,if the quote you claim Kiss made about ToD really existed then it would be similarly easy to find,but funny enough it isn't.

Well Kiss was talking cowpat then since
a) none of the subs missed a tackle, against Wales (TOD made 5, Moore 6 which suggests they were tested). Infact against Wales, the score was 26-3 (i.e., Wales didn't score a try).

By the way, Murphy was on for for 7 mins against England and didn't make one tackle (while players like Henry & POM should have been taken off way earlier). Henry made 15 tackles that day (missing none) which is who Murphy replaced.

Tackling a player is tackling a player.  Depending on where an opposition player is and what he's doing with the ball, he can be tackled anywhere on the field.

But the tackler doing the tackle still might be deemed to have overall made 'defensive system' errors during his time on the field.  

The two aren't the one thing Sin.  A tackle is a tackle.  A defensive system error is a defensive system error.  Missing a tackle isn't a defensive system error if you were in the right place that the system required you to be in.  That's not what I'd assume Kiss to have been on about. He wasn't talking about missing tackles.  It seems he was on about being out of position and thus giving the "opposition a bit of an option".
He's not saying the opposition availed of the options but he was saying teams were being given the avenues to do so in system lapses.

I'm not Kiss's biggest fan but don't twist his words to suggest he was talking simply about tackle rates.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Zebo has a very, laid back attitude which may come from his father's caribeean heritage which would seem to be why Zebo may not be appreciated in some circles.

Sorry but this is racial stereotyping. His attitude may just as readily have come from his mother's side or from his teacher or coach or what he believes or watches or reads or listens to, or, or...

Please don't attribute your prejudices to unnamed figures/players/circles who supposedly want him excluded. The last two games I could have sworn he was INCLUDED on my TV - he looked just like an Ireland player. Perhaps you should adjust your contrast button as rugby is better when it's not reduced to black and white.

Jesus, so its wrong to say that the Dutch are generally tall people, or the Chinese like rice and the Italians like pasta. Thats racial sterotyping.   

Zebo's laid back attitude means he performs really well on the big stage. Thats a good thing.

It was Engine who made the charge that senior players wanted him included which I rubished. The most senior of the senior players tweeted a photo of his young son doing the Zebo 'Z' with his hands not too long ago which suggests to me that Zebo is popular in the O'Connell household.

Have a go at Engine for those comments, not me.

SecretFly wrote:Tackling a player is tackling a player.  Depending on where an opposition player is and what he's doing with the ball, he can be tackled anywhere on the field.

But the tackler doing the tackle still might be deemed to have overall made 'defensive system' errors during his time on the field.  

The two aren't the one thing Sin.  A tackle is a tackle.  A defensive system error is a defensive system error.  Missing a tackle isn't a defensive system error if you were in the right place that the system required you to be in.  That's not what I'd assume Kiss to have been on about. He wasn't talking about missing tackles.  It seems he was on about being out of position and thus giving the "opposition a bit of an option".
He's not saying the opposition availed of the options but he was saying teams were being given the avenues to do so in system lapses.

I'm not Kiss's biggest fan but don't twist his words to suggest he was talking simply about tackle rates.

Well, his defensive system didn't improve with Murphy there instead. Quite a few missed tackles in the England game (Rory Best had a horror day). Ireland's defence has got worse since the last time TOD played with Ireland   

As proved during the event itself (6N) and beyond...........  this England ain't Scotland and they ain't Wales.

But you're clutching again.  Kiss ain't always the guy interviewed before or after games and he doesn't always get the same questions posed even if he did.  Is he meant to give a reading of defensive system errors after every game to keep thing 'fair' to the players who feel they got a tongue lashing for it in certain games?

He just highlighted his thoughts on that day and they revolved around system issues with benchers.  He might have had similar issues with any players (benchers or starters) in other games too but maybe he just didn't get a chance to voice them.

What has all this got to do with the fact that O'Connell and Schmidt don't like each other?

How do I stop getting notifictions about this thread?

Found it

Sin é wrote:

Jesus, so its wrong to  say that the Dutch are generally tall people, or the Chinese like rice and the Italians like pasta. Thats racial sterotyping.   

Zebo's laid back attitude means he performs really well on the big stage. Thats a good thing.

Sin.  You're the one who mentioned the r-a-c-e ticket as perhaps being an ingredient in people criticising Zebo.  Yet you're the only one who keeps highlighting his attitude, temperament and personality as being r-a-c-e specific.  Don't you get the irony of that?  Time and again on these threads you defend Zebo's character in terms of his racial heritage.
I know, and have known, many people who are and were laid-back kings of cool and no fuss.  And not one of them was of Caribbean blood ... most of them were just plain 'the world can pass me by, man' boringly Irish.

rodders wrote:What has all this got to do with the fact that O'Connell and Schmidt don't like each other?

The tangential coefficient, you eejit!

This thread might be causing some to lose their rag, but think of it this way, it's the end of the season and the only thing Sin can complain about is that a reserve backrow player didn't get more game time off the bench in a 6nations winning campaign.

Nae bad.

Submachine wrote:Found it

Detest them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you have to keep renewing that one. It only stops for the threads you've already contributed to. You contribute to more...they're back on the notification list.

Sin é wrote:
Jesus, so its wrong to  say that the Dutch are generally tall people, or the Chinese like rice and the Italians like pasta. Thats racial sterotyping.   

Zebo's laid back attitude means he performs really well on the big stage. Thats a good thing.

Is this an appropriate place to discuss whether the likely prevalence of the Neanderthal gene MRC1 amongst our red haired squad members impacts positively or negatively in major tournaments and whether hair colour should be a factor in team selection?

We need more Dutch Locks... end of!

More Dutch less Irish I say.

Although just four Neanderthalised Caribbean centres would probably be even better!! Do Aldi sell them?

Joe would have kittens. He'd never get such an eclectic genetic mix mash to stick to the script.

He allowed a Fijian, an Israeli, a bunch of Deefourites and a light salting of Munster folk to inhabit his Leinster squad. He's racially tolerant, is old Joe.

Sin é wrote:
Well, his defensive system didn't improve with Murphy there instead. 

  

Sin, you'll find its quite hard to make tackles when the opposition don't make a single carry in the last 7 minutes!

In that last 7 minutes only one single tackle needed to be made by Ireland, of all people it was made by Dave Kearney!

SecretFly wrote:As proved during the event itself (6N) and beyond...........  this England ain't Scotland and they ain't Wales.

But you're clutching again.  Kiss ain't always the guy interviewed before or after games and he doesn't always get the same questions posed even if he did.  Is he meant to give a reading of defensive system errors after every game to keep thing 'fair' to the players who feel they got a tongue lashing for it in certain games?

He just highlighted his thoughts on that day and they revolved around system issues with benchers.  He might have had similar issues with any players (benchers or starters) in other games too but maybe he just didn't get a chance to voice them.

Your correct, Kiss isn't the one interviewed before or after games. He sometimes takes the early week press conference (Monday/Tues) which Schmidt doesn't attend. Mick Kearney & Plumtree also attend some of these.

Which makes it worse .... he had time to prepare for that conference and to come up with the excuse that the defensive system needed to improve having kept Wales tryless is laughable (especially when you see how poor the defensive system has been against Argentina with Jordi, Heislip & Henry in the backrow). Ruddock is the only one coming out of that tour as a backrower with a bit of credibility.

Mickado wrote:This thread might be causing some to lose their rag, but think of it this way, it's the end of the season and the only thing Sin can complain about is that a reserve backrow player didn't get more game time off the bench in a 6nations winning campaign.

Nae bad.

You obviously didn't watch any of the tests in Argentina to come to that conclusion.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jesus, so its wrong to  say that the Dutch are generally tall people, or the Chinese like rice and the Italians like pasta. Thats racial sterotyping.   

Zebo's laid back attitude means he performs really well on the big stage. Thats a good thing.

Sin.  You're the one who mentioned the r-a-c-e ticket as perhaps being an ingredient in people criticising Zebo.  Yet you're the only one who keeps highlighting his attitude, temperament and personality as being r-a-c-e specific.  Don't you get the irony of that?  Time and again on these threads you defend Zebo's character in terms of his racial heritage.
I know, and have known, many people who are and were laid-back kings of cool and no fuss.  And not one of them was of Caribbean blood ... most of them were just plain 'the world can pass me by, man' boringly Irish.

Sorry, stop labelling me as a racist. My point still remains in a counter argument that the senior Irish players did not want Zebo around (which I think is complete rubbish) must be because they have a problem with his family heritage which is laid back and fun loving.

This is not everyone's cup of team (i.e., and if they have a problem with being able to accepting diversity, for interest expecting people to conform to their way of life infers that they have a superior notion of themselves which is racist.

They may also be jealous of the attention he gets as well (for example, the kids just love him and he is great with them).

You're overcooking the egg again, Sin.  It's a bullet, as we say in our house.  There is always room for improvement.  "We were bloomin' marvellous!  We woz all over them Welshies"  ain't going to cut it at interview time.  

'Yeah it was good but it still needs work' is a way of keeping players grounded to the reality that demands will keep increasing into a 6N and that it's never good enough in International rugby.  There is always room for improvement.  You're overcooking the 'Kiss attacked his benchers' gig, sin.

The kids love sparky too sin but I'd have serious reservations if he lined out on the left wing for ulster.

theslosty wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well, his defensive system didn't improve with Murphy there instead. 

  

Sin, you'll find its quite hard to make tackles when the opposition don't make a single carry in the last 7 minutes!

In that last 7 minutes only one single tackle needed to be made by Ireland, of all people it was made by Dave Kearney!

The tackling success rate got worse. Joe afraid to bring on Jordi because his tackling would not be good enough? The tackling success rate dropped to 84% for the England game.

Maybe Joe dropped the wrong people?

I think the big criticism of Dave Kearney is that his pace isn't good enough to be an international winger and offensively and his finishing isn't either. He is great at hitting rucks though.

SecretFly wrote:You're overcooking the egg again, Sin.  It's a bullet, as we say in our house.  There is always room for improvement.  "We were bloomin' marvellous!  We woz all over them Welshies"  ain't going to cut it at interview time.  

'Yeah it was good but it still needs work' is a way of keeping players grounded to the reality that demands will keep increasing into a 6N and that it's never good enough in International rugby.  There is always room for improvement.  You're overcooking the 'Kiss attacked his benchers' gig, sin.

There is always room for improvement, but that is no reason to drop anyone who made all their tackles (5) in the few minutes they were on.

Sin é wrote:
Well Kiss was talking cowpat then since
a) none of the subs missed a tackle, against Wales (TOD made 5, Moore 6 which suggests they were tested). Infact against Wales, the score was 26-3 (i.e., Wales didn't score a try).

By the way, Murphy was on for for 7 mins against England and didn't make one tackle (while players like Henry & POM should have been taken off way earlier). Henry made 15 tackles that day (missing none) which is who Murphy replaced.

Maybe he was but I posted that up there to show that you are talking crap when you say that Kiss criticised ToD. Everything else you posted is just bluster so you can try to get out of admitting that,you can't back up these criticisms of the management team so you should stop spouting rumours and lies.If you want to criticise them because you disagree with decisions they made that's fine but making stuff up is really bad form.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You're overcooking the egg again, Sin.  It's a bullet, as we say in our house.  There is always room for improvement.  "We were bloomin' marvellous!  We woz all over them Welshies"  ain't going to cut it at interview time.  

'Yeah it was good but it still needs work' is a way of keeping players grounded to the reality that demands will keep increasing into a 6N and that it's never good enough in International rugby.  There is always room for improvement.  You're overcooking the 'Kiss attacked his benchers' gig, sin.

There is always room for improvement, but that is no reason to drop anyone who made all their tackles (5) in the few minutes they were on.

You've already been told that ToD was carrying a knock and missed the first few days of training that week.He could have played but Schmidt likes his players to get a full weeks training in (he will make exceptions but they have to be absolute lynchpins of the team,sub backrowers don't fit that category).

[quote="rodders"]The kids love sparky too sin but I'd have serious reservations if he lined out on the left wing for ulster.[/quotey

What has Sparky got to do with it? The kids all love One Direction as well.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:This thread might be causing some to lose their rag, but think of it this way, it's the end of the season and the only thing Sin can complain about is that a reserve backrow player didn't get more game time off the bench in a 6nations winning campaign.

Nae bad.

You obviously didn't watch any of the tests in Argentina to come to that conclusion.

The conclusion that you're complaining about Zebo and TOD's treatment? What's that got to do with the Argentina tests?

Sin é wrote:

theslosty wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well, his defensive system didn't improve with Murphy there instead. 

  

Sin, you'll find its quite hard to make tackles when the opposition don't make a single carry in the last 7 minutes!

In that last 7 minutes only one single tackle needed to be made by Ireland, of all people it was made by Dave Kearney!

The tackling success rate got worse. Joe afraid to bring on Jordi because his tackling would not be good enough? The tackling success rate dropped to 84% for the England game.

Maybe Joe dropped the wrong people?

I think the big criticism of Dave Kearney is that his pace isn't good enough to be an international winger and offensively and his finishing isn't either. He is great at hitting rucks though.

This is brilliant Sin. Watch the last 10 minutes of that game.  I just did. You can't criticise Murphy for not making tackles when there was virtually none to be made!

theslosty wrote:

Sin é wrote:

theslosty wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well, his defensive system didn't improve with Murphy there instead. 

  

Sin, you'll find its quite hard to make tackles when the opposition don't make a single carry in the last 7 minutes!

In that last 7 minutes only one single tackle needed to be made by Ireland, of all people it was made by Dave Kearney!

The tackling success rate got worse. Joe afraid to bring on Jordi because his tackling would not be good enough? The tackling success rate dropped to 84% for the England game.

Maybe Joe dropped the wrong people?

I think the big criticism of Dave Kearney is that his pace isn't good enough to be an international winger and offensively and his finishing isn't either. He is great at hitting rucks though.

This is brilliant Sin. Watch the last 10 minutes of that game.  I just did. You can't criticise Murphy for not making tackles when there was virtually none to be made!

Oh but he can.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well Kiss was talking cowpat then since
a) none of the subs missed a tackle, against Wales (TOD made 5, Moore 6 which suggests they were tested). Infact against Wales, the score was 26-3 (i.e., Wales didn't score a try).

By the way, Murphy was on for for 7 mins against England and didn't make one tackle (while players like Henry & POM should have been taken off way earlier). Henry made 15 tackles that day (missing none) which is who Murphy replaced.

Maybe he was but I posted that up there to show that you are talking crap when you say that Kiss criticised ToD. Everything else you posted is just bluster so you can try to get out of admitting that,you can't back up these criticisms of the management team so you should stop spouting rumours and lies.If you want to criticise them because you disagree with decisions they made that's fine but making stuff up is really bad form.

I didn't post that Kiss criticised TOD.

I posted that Feek (the scrum coach) dropped TOD even though Schmidt had told POC (who told TOD) that he was in the 23 for the England game.

We all know it was a cowpat excuse (the only criticism by Kiss was about the defense).

By the way, I don't have a problem with TOD (or any player) being dropped if they get the same treatement as everyone else. Schmidt has been lauded for contacting and explaining why people have been dropped. Why wasn't TOD treated the same way?

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:This thread might be causing some to lose their rag, but think of it this way, it's the end of the season and the only thing Sin can complain about is that a reserve backrow player didn't get more game time off the bench in a 6nations winning campaign.

Nae bad.

You obviously didn't watch any of the tests in Argentina to come to that conclusion.

The conclusion that you're complaining about Zebo and TOD's treatment? What's that got to do with the Argentina tests?

Read your own post.

Well why don't you say something about the Argentina tour then for goodness sake? Instead of obsessing over marginal selection decisions in a competition we actually won!

theslosty wrote:

Sin é wrote:

theslosty wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well, his defensive system didn't improve with Murphy there instead. 

  

Sin, you'll find its quite hard to make tackles when the opposition don't make a single carry in the last 7 minutes!

In that last 7 minutes only one single tackle needed to be made by Ireland, of all people it was made by Dave Kearney!

The tackling success rate got worse. Joe afraid to bring on Jordi because his tackling would not be good enough? The tackling success rate dropped to 84% for the England game.

Maybe Joe dropped the wrong people?

I think the big criticism of Dave Kearney is that his pace isn't good enough to be an international winger and offensively and his finishing isn't either. He is great at hitting rucks though.

This is brilliant Sin. Watch the last 10 minutes of that game.  I just did. You can't criticise Murphy for not making tackles when there was virtually none to be made!

My criticism would have been of Schmidt who was afraid to bring on an inexperienced Murphy as most the players had played a very tough game.

If TOD was dropped for Sean O'Brien or Ferris I would have no problem with it because both of them are better players than TOD.

Jordi Murphy is not a better player than TOD and even if he was as good, he does lack gametime and experience at club level to be thrown into such an intense game like against England.

Notch wrote:Well why don't you say something about the Argentina tour then for goodness sake? Instead of obsessing over marginal selection decisions in a competition we actually won!

We lost the England game.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well Kiss was talking cowpat then since
a) none of the subs missed a tackle, against Wales (TOD made 5, Moore 6 which suggests they were tested). Infact against Wales, the score was 26-3 (i.e., Wales didn't score a try).

By the way, Murphy was on for for 7 mins against England and didn't make one tackle (while players like Henry & POM should have been taken off way earlier). Henry made 15 tackles that day (missing none) which is who Murphy replaced.

Maybe he was but I posted that up there to show that you are talking crap when you say that Kiss criticised ToD. Everything else you posted is just bluster so you can try to get out of admitting that,you can't back up these criticisms of the management team so you should stop spouting rumours and lies.If you want to criticise them because you disagree with decisions they made that's fine but making stuff up is really bad form.

I didn't post that Kiss criticised TOD.

I posted that Feek (the scrum coach) dropped TOD even though Schmidt had told POC (who told TOD) that he was in the 23 for the England game.

We all know it was a cowpat excuse (the only criticism by Kiss was about the defense).

By the way, I don't have a problem with TOD (or any player) being dropped if they get the same treatement as everyone else. Schmidt has been lauded for contacting and explaining why people have been dropped. Why wasn't TOD treated the same way?

I have every confidence that he was,the only person I have seen mention anything different is you and I think you are so bitter and twisted that you'll jump to believe anything negative about Schmidt.

Sin é wrote:

Sorry, stop labelling me as a racist. My point still remains in a counter argument that the senior Irish players did not want Zebo around (which I think is complete rubbish) must be because they have a problem with his family heritage which is laid back and fun loving.

This is not everyone's cup of team (i.e., and if they have a problem with being able to accepting diversity, for interest expecting people to conform to their way of life infers that they have a superior notion of themselves which is racist.

They may also be jealous of the attention he gets as well (for example, the kids just love him and he is great with them).

I'm not labelling you as a racist.  Take off the blinkers and read English, sin.  Not accusing you of racism - but you certainly didn't shy away from implicating others as potential racists, did you?  You didn't say the senior players might simply not like his lively personality, you bluntly suggested that if the dislike exists, it might be 'racist'.  

Fact remains, you're the only one who has ever and continues to defend Zebo on racial heritage grounds.  If race shouldn't be an issue - and it shouldn't - then ease up on the Caribbean heritage laid-backness stuff about Zebo.  He has Caribbean roots, we shouldn't deny them to him.  Howlett and the boys did their Munster Haka and we all roared our approval. Zebo shouldn't be forced to forget or not express his roots.  And in the normal run of events it should also be an aspect of him that people should feel comfortable chatting about.  But if you're going to raise 'racism' as a probable issue, perhaps it's best you yourself desist from the 'he's different because he has fun-time Caribbean blood in him' argument.  That perpetuates the idea that he's not the same because he's different.  He ain't different, he's one of us.  And all of us are different....as these threads prove over and over again

So - if you genuinely think a proposed idea that the senior players don't want Zebo around is rubbish...then just say so.  No need to invent a racism idea to explain a presumption you don't agree with anyway.  You thought the idea that the senior players didn't want Zebo around was rubbish.  That's all it required - to say so.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Well why don't you say something about the Argentina tour then for goodness sake? Instead of obsessing over marginal selection decisions in a competition we actually won!

We lost the England game.