Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

 

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:As long as Ireland are winning then O'Connell needs to be diplomatic but there are definitely mutterings of discontent in Munster about the selection policy. I heard a couple of the Ulster guys have struggled to deal with the expectation and pressure in the training camps.

Apparently if players turn up without learning the moves and plays then Schmidt sends them off the training pitch and doesn't consider them for selection. The Leinster guys are used to this approach but its a bit of a shock for guys from the other provinces.

None of that sounds like a bad thing to me, to be perfectly honest. Test rugby is non-stop pressure and expectation- that'll be why Schmidt deliberately ramps it up in training? It all sounds like a massive dose of exactly what we need. You want players to work incredibly hard on learning their roles, you want intensity in training.

No I agree it's a good thing but as with any coaching regime there'll be winners and losers. Tall poppies and cork rebels need not apply....

Still space for Limerick ones, Westies and left footed Ulstermen then   

rodders wrote:

No I agree it's a good thing but as with any coaching regime there'll be winners and losers. Tall poppies and cork rebels need not apply....

Not fair at all, rodders - and you know it.  He's let a bobby socks player back in, innit???  There is hope for everyone as long as they pull up their s...........................................      ..................  I mean............ as long as they're good enough.

Couple of thoughts on centre stuff for next season:

I thought apart from one poor long pass and “that missed tackle” Marshall did really well in the first test. He was pretty darn positive in attack and his defense was good. That being said, if he keeps getting injured his career is in danger and I don’t think he is a million miles away from that.

Cave also had a good first test (bare in mind I haven’t seen the 2nd test yet). Not sure Cave is ever gonna be that great, his physical attributes (strength, speed, agility) are relatively unimpressive but he has got a brain and can do a job there at the very, very least.

Henshaw is far more than a bosh merchant. He has great skills as seen in the Saxons game he played at 13 (Cave at 12), he made great defensive reads, good handling, great offload lad, good fielder, good kicker, good runner. Decision making is the only thing I could think of that needs to come up massively, that and experience obviously.

McFadden, Earls and Bowe are wingers IMO. Earls and Bowe are outstanding wingers and McFadden is a good winger who has excellent basic skills and works his hole off.

Payne has massive smarts. His physical attributes are great. He has great skills. None of these things are in doubt. More game time at 13 and that decision making will come. He was awesome there for the Blues.

Olding is 100% my choice for 12 if he comes back to the level he was at when was fit. His skills are sickening. He is massively elusive. I’ve never seen him as an issue defensively. He has serious decision making. I want him playing right from the get go at Ulster at 12 and 15.


Injury free selection for S.Africa/Georgia/Australia

Healy/Healy/?
Best/Cronin/?
Moore/McGrath/?

Think if we are gonna try and take McGrath as a utility player then that needs to be tested, soon.

POC/Henderson/?
Toner/Toner/?

Toner and Henderson can't be separated right now IMO in terms of who is 2nd choice. For the Georgia game I'd let them go together and try another option off the bench.

SOB/Ruddock/?
Henry/Henry/?
Heaslip/Heaslip/?

POM on the bench for both games. I'd start him in place of SOB or Henry (not sure which) for the Australia game I think.

Murray/Marmion/?
Sexton/Sexton/?

Marmion in as second choice ahead of Reddan IMO but that is a form call.

Darcy/Olding/?
Henshaw/Henshaw/?

I'd start Henshaw in both tests as I think his learning curve is gonna be steep and with consistent game time at Connacht at 13 (gaining experience from Mils Muliania) he is definitely a good shout. Payne to get some of both games at 13 either off the bench or moving from 15 to 13. Olding is a standout for me if he can show us he is still the same player he was before injury. Big if, but if he can then he is lightening. Sexton and Kearney to guide them through that Georgia game.

Kearney/Zebo/?
Trimble/Trimble/?
Payne/Kearney/?

D.Kearney to get the first start on the wing with Zeebs on the bench, vice vearse for Georgia to decide who goes in to the Aus game with the jersey. Trimble in there for consistency (help out new guys like Henshaw and Olding). Payne starts the first test at 15 as Henshaw has Sexton, Darcy, Trimble and Murray around him as first choice experienced lads. Kearney in for the second test as he is more inbedded than Payne and makes up for the entirely inexperienced centre partnership considering Darcy isn't there as a support.

Obviously massively presumptuous here!

I agree with you pete, and I'd think many of us do, that Marshall is perhaps only one more head 'event/concussion' away from a Doc calling time on his career - IF the docs are serious about linking long time concussion episodes with serious illnesses in later years.
Which is a pity because I do love his approach to the game and he would have certainly been there in the 'centre' mix of potentials. But risks now ring alarm bells virtually everytime he's knocked. And can Ireland work hard enough around that kind of player in the lead in to next year?

I'm not sure if it will work for Marshall. I love how he can mix direct, hard line running with accurate distribution and kicking but he needs to be injury free for a while if this is gonna work for him.

Loved seeing him in that first game in the Aviva, knew he was special then but he has to get meaningful consistent gametime soon in green if he really wants to do this.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I'm sorry, but what evidence is there that there is any trouble or problem between O'Connell and Schmidt?

1) How Schmidt went very public about how POC should have been cited for the Kearney incident (i.e., 'think of the children watching it on youtube' comment.
2) POC always struggles to say something good about Schmidt. Most of it is very impersonal for a very personal kind of guy which he makes comments on how big he is into detail.
3) Not one photo of a handshake, embrace or anything of POC & Schmidt after winning the 6Nations. This could be due to the fact that POC was really mad with him for telling him that Tommy O'Donnell was in the matchday 23 (which POC told TOD he was), and then TOD being dropped by Greek Feek (with no explaination as to why he was dropped out of the 23). Schmidt didn't even have the balls to drop TOD himself for Jordi Murphy.

There are 3 reasons for starters .....

I'd love to see your source for this one,is it another fantasy you've constructed from one line journalist put out there?

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that POC was mad as I don't know. I think he should have been mad though if the coach tells POC who is in the 23 and the captain then tells one of the people involved that they are in the 23, then for that backrower to be told by the scrum coach that he is dropped out of the squad with no explaination (and we are told repeatedly about Schmidt going explaining to guys what their work-on are.

As for my source - there is a poster on Munsterfans who is very close to the squad and is usually correct in his information, so whether its true or not, it is common knowledge that this is what happened.

It sound a bit elaborate anyway for someone to make up!

Sin é wrote:


Sorry, I shouldn't have said that POC was mad as I don't know. I think he should have been mad though if the coach tells POC who is in the 23 and the captain then tells one of the people involved that they are in the 23, then for that backrower to be told by the scrum coach that he is dropped out of the squad with no explaination (and we are told repeatedly about Schmidt going explaining to guys what their work-on are.

As for my source - there is a poster on Munsterfans who is very close to the squad and is usually correct in his information, so whether its true or not, it is common knowledge that this is what happened.

It sound a bit elaborate anyway for someone to make up!

So it's common knowledge this happened even though it might not be true?That doesn't make much sense.

Also who is it common knowledge amongst,it might be accepted on Munsterfans just because one guy said it but that doesn't make it true.It's pretty poor form to be spreading unfounded rumours on the basis of one anonymous 2nd hand source.

It might sound a bit elaborate but doesn't it also sound a bit ridiculous,Schmidt drops players every time he picks a squad why would he treat ToD any differently from everyone else.There are numerous examples of players who have said that Schmidt went into great detail around what they needed to work on to get back in the squad,can you think of any good reason that Cave or Kilcoyne as the two examples I can think of off hand would be afforded that courtesy yet ToD wouldn't?I think it's far more likely some anonymous poster with a gripe would spread a false rumour than Schmidt would single out ToD for that type of treatment.

No. 1 - Munsterfans has 1000s of members - thats why I would say it is common knowledge.
No. 2. Schmidt didn't drop Tommy. Greg Feek, the scrum coach did.
No. 3. He wasn't given any 'work-on's' - Les Kiss mumbled something about his defence (which was laughable in that he was dropped having played about 10 minutes and made 5 tackles, missing none and secured one turnover!

Sin é wrote:No. 1 - Munsterfans has 1000s of members - thats why I would say it is common knowledge.
No. 2. Schmidt didn't drop Tommy. Greg Feek, the scrum coach did.
No. 3. He wasn't given any 'work-on's' - Les Kiss mumbled something about his defence (which was laughable in that he was dropped having played about 10 minutes and made 5 tackles, missing none and secured one turnover!

1. So because 1000's of people believe a lie that makes it true?

2. I doubt Feek made the decision,you initially said Feek gave him the message,that is not the same thing as dropping him.That's like saying Brian Dobson kidnapped 200 schoolgirls in Rwanda when in fact he just told me the news.

3. Again you don't know what he was or wasn't given you're taking the word of one anonymous guy as to what happened,just cos Kiss didn't divulge every detail of what ToD has been told to work on doesn't mean he hasn't been given things to work on.To reiterate I think it's far more likely ToD was treated the same way as every other player who was dropped and your anonymous source who's close to the squad is making it up.More fool you and Munsterfans in general for believing the word of one person.I would bet that if the story he gave was one that you weren't all so desperate to believe (big bad Schmidt) then you wouldn't swallow it so readily.

Okay that seems to make this conclusive so.... Joe must go. No one can survive in the Irish job for any length of time if Munster are against him. He perpetrated a horrific act of not selecting 7 munster players (and 1 token Ulsterman) in the pack and is looking to ruin poor young Zeebs by asking the winger to defend when the other team have the ball. And now a friend of a poster from another site which was read by a poster on this site has confirmed that Joe attacked POCs good standing by changing a starting matchday squad.

That's the final straw.

Joe out!!! Foley for the Ireland job.

Come it is obvious TOD was treated unfairly because he was a Munsterman.

We all know it true cause a bloke down the pub said so   

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Joe out!!! Foley for the Ireland job.

{FAST FORWARD 2 YEARS} Foley out!!! Leo for the Ireland job.

{FAST FORWARD 2 MORE YEARS} Leo out!!! ROG for the Ireland job.

{FAST FORWARD N+2 YEARS} [Insert Munster/Leinster Coach] out!!! [Insert Munster/Leinster Coach] for the Ireland Job

I always thought POC was a less than enthusiastic about answering questions about how great Schmidt is. I think they have a pretty cool relationship but don't hate each other or anything like that. I think the relationship between Kidney and O'Driscoll was similar. They didn't hate each other, but weren't exactly bff's either.

On Tommy O'Donnell, was he even in the starting lineup for Munsters big HC knockout games? He's not a great player. Zebo, ye can complain about, but not O'Donnell. There are quite a number of better flankers in Ireland.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:No. 1 - Munsterfans has 1000s of members - thats why I would say it is common knowledge.
No. 2. Schmidt didn't drop Tommy. Greg Feek, the scrum coach did.
No. 3. He wasn't given any 'work-on's' - Les Kiss mumbled something about his defence (which was laughable in that he was dropped having played about 10 minutes and made 5 tackles, missing none and secured one turnover!

1. So because 1000's of people believe a lie that makes it true? Its common Knowledge. I didn't say they all believed it.

2. I doubt Feek made the decision,you initially said Feek gave him the message,that is not the same thing as dropping him.That's like saying Brian Dobson kidnapped 200 schoolgirls in Rwanda when in fact he just told me the news.
The relevance of the comment is that Schmidt didn't have the bottle/manners to drop him, unlike how he apparently deals with everyone else. We've been hearing ad nauseam that Schmidt took a lot of trouble to contact players and explain why they were not called up in the first place and if they were dropped, it was explained to them what their work-ons were. Schmidt didn't even text him. He sent his scrum coach to drop him.

3. Again you don't know what he was or wasn't given you're taking the word of one anonymous guy as to what happened,just cos Kiss didn't divulge every detail of what ToD has been told to work on doesn't mean he hasn't been given things to work on.To reiterate I think it's far more likely ToD was treated the same way as every other player who was dropped and your anonymous source who's close to the squad is making it up.More fool you and Munsterfans in general for believing the word of one person.I would bet that if the story he gave was one that you weren't all so desperate to believe (big bad Schmidt) then you wouldn't swallow it so readily.

The person involved is not anonymous to me. I know who he is.

Kiss mentioned defence which was obviously something he made up because TOD's defence had been very good (making 5 tackles in 10 minutes and winning 1 turnover when he came off the bench).

geoff999rugby wrote:Come it is obvious TOD was treated unfairly because he was a Munsterman.

We all know it true cause a bloke down the pub said so    

That is funny coming from you.  

He was not treated the way everyone else apparently is.

Where are you getting all of this information though, Sin? How can anyone take these claims seriously?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Okay that seems to make this conclusive so.... Joe must go.  No one can survive in the Irish job for any length of time if Munster are against him.  He perpetrated a horrific act of not selecting 7 munster players (and 1 token Ulsterman) in the pack and is looking to ruin poor young Zeebs by asking the winger to defend when the other team have the ball. And now a friend of a poster from another site which was read by a poster on this site has confirmed that Joe attacked POCs good standing by changing a starting matchday squad.

That's the final straw.

Joe out!!! Foley for the Ireland job.

Schmidt has poor man management skills. Why didn't he explain to TOD why he dropped him for Jordi Murphy?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Where are you getting all of this information though, Sin?  How can anyone take these claims seriously?

Its been discussed on Munsterfans and Les Kiss's comments about TOD being dropped for his defence was definately makey-uppy.

Look, the story is a bit elaborate for anyone to make up.

i.e., POC being told that TOD was in 23, then POC telling TOD he was in the 23, then Feek telling TOD he was going home and TOD does not know why (as he wasn't given any work-ons).

Generally, we get to know what the work-ons were meant to be, i.e., hit more rucks, defence etc.

Kiss took the press conference and he mumbled something about TOD being dropped for Jordi Murphy from the 23 because TOD needed to work on his defence. (I've explained about him making 5 tackles and 1 turnover in 10 minutes during the 6Nations).

Do you have a link to Kiss making those comments about TOD's defence?

I never recall Kiss saying anything of the sort, I recall them saying O'Donnell had an injury for the England game which prevented him taking a full part in training in the week and then nothing.

Which is why a link would be useful, though I somehow doubt we are ever going to see one.

Notch wrote:I never recall Kiss saying anything of the sort, I recall them saying O'Donnell had an injury for the England game which prevented him taking a full part in training in the week and then nothing.

The story goes down Munster way that Schmidt told POC that TOD was in the 23, so someone was feeding someone cowpat story about him being injured.

Rory, it was a press conference before the England game I think (last time TOD played for Ireland was sub against Wales). Kiss usually took those.

I watched that press conference live and Kiss said exactly what I said above. If yiou can't even get that right...

Notch wrote:I watched that press conference live and Kiss said exactly what I said above. If yiou can't even get that right...

TOD played for Munster on 15th Feb (80 Min), 23 Feb (60 Mins.), 1 March 80 mins., 29 March (80 Mins).

Since TOD played on 23 Feb for Munster and the England game was on 22 Feb, that rubbishes your theory that TOD was injured or else you are repeating some of Kiss's porkies.

Erm, no it doesn't. It has zero effect on that whatsoever. If he had an injury which prevented him taking any part in training he wouldn't have been selected. Even if it just means he'd miss the Tuesday session and was expected to recover fully for the weekend it would rule him out due to the at this point well-documented emphasis Schmidt places on preparation.

Thats beside the point. The point is that Kiss never said anything about his defence in that press conference. I don't know what the truth is but the fact you are going on about Kiss talking about his defence when he never did doesn't make you look credible.

It's not like there's anything between him and Murphy as players. 50/50 call. Interesting to see neither player first choice for their provinces when the run-in in the Pro12 took place. I'm sure you held the same level of inquisition when O'Donnell lost his place in the Munster team to Sean Dougall!

Notch wrote:Erm, no it doesn't. It has zero effect on that whatsoever. If he had an injury which prevented him taking any part in training he wouldn't have been selected. Even if it just means he'd miss the Tuesday session and was expected to recover fully for the weekend it would rule him out due to the at this point well-documented emphasis Schmidt places on preparation.

+1 and I thought that this was common knowledge that O'Donnell had been left out because of a niggle at the beginning of the week?   

I honestly can't tell if some fans both here and in other places genuinely aren't aware of this or have conveniently forgotten it to push the 'Schmidt hates Munster' conspiracy. Same goes for Zebo, I had thought he had been left out this season because elements of the management and senior players weren't impressed by his behaviour last summer (which incidents in particular allegedly caused offence I don't know but there were several with potential that are public knowledge), nothing to do with his ability. BOD, in particular, has been previously rumoured to be harsh on a young Leinster players misbehaving.

This might all be pie in the sky but it was my understanding and I don't see much evidence for the other interpretations.

Notch wrote:Erm, no it doesn't. It has zero effect on that whatsoever. If he had an injury which prevented him taking any part in training he wouldn't have been selected. Even if it just means he'd miss the Tuesday session and was expected to recover fully for the weekend it would rule him out due to the at this point well-documented emphasis Schmidt places on preparation.

Thats beside the point. The point is that Kiss never said anything about his defence in that press conference. I don't know what the truth is but the fact you are going on about Kiss talking about his defence when he never did doesn't make you look credible.

It's not like there's anything between him and Murphy as players. 50/50 call. Interesting to see neither player first choice for their provinces when the run-in in the Pro12 took place. I'm sure you held the same level of inquisition when O'Donnell lost his place in the Munster team to Sean Dougall!

So, Kiss said in that press conference that TOD was not selected because he was injured?
How does that explain then why TOD did not appear in the 23 for either the Italian or French games since he was fit to play for Munster?
What did Kiss say to explain this since you seem to be so well informed or do you think the hacks who attend the press conference don't ask questions.

By the way, the live press conference is only part of what happens on the day. You don't see the written press interviews.

Engine#4 wrote:

Notch wrote:Erm, no it doesn't. It has zero effect on that whatsoever. If he had an injury which prevented him taking any part in training he wouldn't have been selected. Even if it just means he'd miss the Tuesday session and was expected to recover fully for the weekend it would rule him out due to the at this point well-documented emphasis Schmidt places on preparation.

+1 and I thought that this was common knowledge that O'Donnell had been left out because of a niggle at the beginning of the week?   

I honestly can't tell if some fans both here and in other places genuinely aren't aware of this or have conveniently forgotten it to push the 'Schmidt hates Munster' conspiracy. Same goes for Zebo, I had thought he had been left out this season because elements of the management and senior players weren't impressed by his behaviour last summer (which incidents in particular allegedly caused offence I don't know but there were several with potential that are public knowledge), nothing to do with his ability.  BOD, in particular, has been previously rumoured to be harsh on a young Leinster players misbehaving.

This might all be pie in the sky but it was my understanding and I don't see much evidence for the other interpretations.

So its fine for you to speculate that BOD can be harsh on young player's behaviour (I've never seen any evidence of this - quite the contrary to this to be hones with regard to Zebo if you watch the clip of BOD & Zebo meeting at the elevator with BOD). I think BOD got on extremely well with a lot of players - jesus he even gets on with Jonathan Sexton who is notoriously difficult to get on with.

In fairness to the players, lots of them have got into trouble for some of the stuff they have done - I'd be shocked if any of them would condemn Zebo for that (there but for the grace of god goes i syndrome). Murray was equally culpable and he hasn't been dropped - in fact I'd say Murray is Schmidt most indespensible player at the moment and it would be very hypocritical of Schmidt to select Murray and drop Zebo if you are going on behaviour last summer.

Penney, Zebo's Munster coach has also stood up for Zebo, so I would say - anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

I think the theory of POC'n'Joe goes something like this.

They don't get on because POC has an elephant's memory for the D Kearney incident and because Joe has an elephant's memory for the D Kearney incident.  So they both hold it in for each other because of that one incident.  Joe believes POC should have been cited.  POC believes Joe should have kept his nose out of commenting on it and left it to refs and administrators.  Bad blood.  Lifelong feud.

But shouldn't POC appreciate that Joe was very much being a coach who stood up for his players and wasn't afraid to say he believed they got the short end of the stick on a decision?  Wouldn't POC expect Joe to do the same in an International context now if he felt that POC himself was the victim of a citeable offence that never went to a citing.  Wouldn't POC expect his coach to speak out and not be afraid to voice the concerns of his squad, his team, his Nation?

Joe has never had any Provincial affiliation other than Leinster and now as Ireland coach.  He is still very much an outsider who will one day decide the grass is greener somewhere else and move on to another country.  POC was merely another player on another team against his team - and he spoke out.  He didn't do the political maze-like thinking that one usually has to do in Ireland to keep from offending vested interest groups.  He's not part of that porridge of quicksand that is Irish sensitivity to just about anything that sensitises.  He didn't care that he might one day actually coach POC or be Irish coach.  He simply addressed the issue that popped up at the time and his concerns about it.

Who else acted like that one time and caused a whole bunch of controversy along with it?  EOS, another Irish coach, that's who.  The guy who virtually accused a Scottish player of attempting to choke O'Gara.  And he didn't even see the incident this time.  It was in a heap of bodies that the incident occured but EOS decided he'd seen enough to talk of an attempted choking anyway  A coach looking after his own in the after-heat of battle.

I'd be surprised at POC if he was still holding a grudge.  I'd be disappointed too.  Afterall, Hines shrugged his shoulder and got on with things to the extent that he ended up playing with a whole bunch of players who were on the team whose coach accused him of choking.

Sin é wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:

Notch wrote:Erm, no it doesn't. It has zero effect on that whatsoever. If he had an injury which prevented him taking any part in training he wouldn't have been selected. Even if it just means he'd miss the Tuesday session and was expected to recover fully for the weekend it would rule him out due to the at this point well-documented emphasis Schmidt places on preparation.

+1 and I thought that this was common knowledge that O'Donnell had been left out because of a niggle at the beginning of the week?   

I honestly can't tell if some fans both here and in other places genuinely aren't aware of this or have conveniently forgotten it to push the 'Schmidt hates Munster' conspiracy. Same goes for Zebo, I had thought he had been left out this season because elements of the management and senior players weren't impressed by his behaviour last summer (which incidents in particular allegedly caused offence I don't know but there were several with potential that are public knowledge), nothing to do with his ability.  BOD, in particular, has been previously rumoured to be harsh on a young Leinster players misbehaving.

This might all be pie in the sky but it was my understanding and I don't see much evidence for the other interpretations.

So its fine for you to speculate that BOD can be harsh on young player's behaviour (I've never seen any evidence of this - quite the contrary to this to be hones with regard to Zebo if you watch the clip of BOD & Zebo meeting at the elevator with BOD). I think BOD got on extremely well with a lot of players - jesus he even gets on with Jonathan Sexton who is notoriously difficult to get on with.

In fairness to the players, lots of them have got into trouble for some of the stuff they have done - I'd be shocked if any of them would condemn Zebo for that (there but for the grace of god goes i syndrome). Murray was equally culpable and he hasn't been dropped - in fact I'd say Murray is Schmidt most indespensible player at the moment and it would be very hypocritical of Schmidt to select Murray and drop Zebo if you are going on behaviour last summer.

Penney, Zebo's Munster coach has also stood up for Zebo, so I would say - anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

Jaaysus man. I used to enjoy your banter. although you go over the top sometimes I thought most of it was tongue in cheek. But this above is just immature rubbish.

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

Jaaysus man. I used to enjoy your banter. although you go over the top sometimes I thought most of it was tongue in cheek. But this above is just immature rubbish.

It's unbelievable Sub. Incredibly unpleasant and unfair.

Yeah, sin has a point - both Howlett and Isa were universally despised in Irish provincial circles when they played here. Irish people never warmed to them, which is suspicious right enough.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Come it is obvious TOD was treated unfairly because he was a Munsterman.

We all know it true cause a bloke down the pub said so    

That is funny coming from you.  

He was not treated the way everyone else apparently is.

Glad you are amused

I have made no secret of the fact that my information is largely second hand from through a guy
who was on the Ulster books and I now work with. As such he knows well the players in the 28-33 age range that came through the Ulster ranks. One particular player is his best mate.

There were two I knew to talk to but both have since retired.

The guy I go to matches with works at one of the Ulster hospital in the physio department and some of the people there are responsible for much of the physio work done on Ulster players.

There is a big difference being open about your contacts and making specific references than making a blanket claim that a 1000 people know. Even if true there is no way a 1000 people know it to be true. Thats just groundless gossip.

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

And you wonder why people dont believe you when you come up with this tripe - back into the gutter with you.
He was left out because the way he conducted himself last summer didn't impress.

As for the referenced press conference please provide the link as I too watch it and do not recall the outcome you discribed.
Until you do I have to say I think you are talking tripe

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

And you wonder why people dont believe you when you come up with this tripe - back into the gutter with you.
He was left out because the way he conducted himself last summer didn't impress.

As for the referenced press conference please provide the link as I too watch it and do not recall the outcome you discribed.
Until you do I have to say I think you are talking tripe

Oh the irony of this comment is too much for me....

I dont believe the stuff you say yet I will make up my own...     

The point being made is that Holy Joe and his team havent been particularly honest in their approach to certain players and for taking an approach that if god forbid DK had followed then there would have been the usual bleating from the east and that glorious righteousness from up north.

Dropping of TOD was one of them. There seemed to be some unseemly miscommunication going on and given the comment previously asking if TOD had been starting the HC team which he had (of which Jordinary wasnt)...

POC and Schmidt dont like each other...fair enough not a big deal.

Zebo...so having watched the second game and comparing it with all his previous Munster games since returning from injury....he didnt play any different, made some try saving tackles which he does consistently, scored (also does consistently), made good yardage, some offloads, defenders beaten etc...and suddenly Joe is saying he is doing better...

this is where the issue is, Schmidt made the media interested in Zebo and didnt deal with it well as his hypocrisy is obvious to all in Munster.

Les Kiss shouldnt be left near a press conference he is just a complete wally all together.

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, sin has a point - both Howlett and Isa were universally despised in Irish provincial circles when they played here.  Irish people never warmed to them, which is suspicious right enough.

I must concede that Joe hasn't selected Howlett or Isa in an Irish matchday squad so you might have a point.

And while we are at it why is this Marty Moore fella getting soft caps off the bench when he doesn't start for his province.
Come to think of it, Jack McGrath is only a backup at Leinster how does he get in ahead of Cronin/Killer/Court. Total bias!
And the treatment of Donnacha Ryan, being left aside so that Dev can pick up easy caps.
Then we get to the shunning of JJ. Joe even picks an outhalf playing in another country instead of giving that lad the call up he deserves.

The nerve of the fella. Joe Out!

ME-109 wrote:Schmidt made the media interested in Zebo

.................by not picking him.  

Yes.  Schmidt made an issue out of Zebo because he did the undoable and dropped an undroppable undroppable in the eyes of the media in Ireland.  
So, vice versaing the conundrum - it was actually the Media that made the media interested in Zebo.  Sure wasn't he the darling of the football style back kick and all.  The wonder move of the 2013 6Ns.  Everybody was on about it.  And the big Bejaysus and Christ!!! shock move by Joe is that the back-kick wonderkid wasn't picked during this year's 6Ns.

"Joe.  Why didn't you pick Zebo?"
"Joe.  Do you like Simon?"
"Joe.  Why no Zebo still?"
"Joe.  Wouldn't Simon give you something more in the next game?"
"Joe.  Is Zebo doing homework for you or are you just not picking him because you don't like him?"
"Joe.  Why didn't you pick Zebo for the last game?"
"Joe.  Why is he not on the team sheet for the next game?"
"Joe.  How about the Italian game?  Huh?  Joe, come on, the Italian game?  Zebo?"
"Joe.  Zebo could light up the French game.  We might need him to win in Paris for the record and stuff."

Joe, Joe, bloody Joe.  The media created the circus about Zebo (and I include places like this in that reference to the media.)  Chatrooms and forums are public chattering areas that create public topics.  The media created Zebo the topic, the character, the cheeky chancer, the bobby socks rebel.... He's like a Western bandit - big name and legendary reputation.  "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

"Joe - You've done it all, you've broken every code
And pulled the rebel Zeebs to the floor
You spoilt the game, no matter what you say
For only metal - what a bore!
Blue eyes, blue eyes, how come you tell so many lies?"

ME-109 ok I should have said I believe but the point stands

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

This is disgusting stuff... Sin you are the first and only person to mention race with regards Zebo or any other irish player. Its been a wonderful thing for me (having lived in the US many years on and off, where race is a constant and horrible battle ground) watching how nothing has been made of the race of several essential players (both irish and non-Irish) for both country and province in the last 10 years; it shows we are becoming more cosmopolitan and accepting as a country. Retract the statement Sin.

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

This is disgusting stuff... Sin you are the first and only person to mention race with regards Zebo or any other irish player. Its been a wonderful thing for me (having lived in the US many years on and off, where race is a constant and horrible battle ground) watching how nothing has been made of the race of several essential players (both irish and non-Irish) for both country and province in the last 10 years; it shows we are becoming more cosmopolitan and accepting as a country. Retract the statement Sin.

First of all I think you should read what I wrote again very carefully.

I said that ANYONE WHO WANTED HIM EXCLUDED (as has been claimed that some senior players don't like him). Zebo has a very, laid back attitude which may come from his father's caribeean heritage which would seem to be why Zebo may not be appreciated in some circles.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Come it is obvious TOD was treated unfairly because he was a Munsterman.

We all know it true cause a bloke down the pub said so    

That is funny coming from you.  

He was not treated the way everyone else apparently is.

Glad you are amused

I have made no secret of the fact that my information is largely second hand from through a guy
who was on the Ulster books and I now work with.  As such he knows well the players in the 28-33 age range that came through the Ulster ranks. One particular player is his best mate.

There were two I knew to talk to but both have since retired.

The guy I go to matches with works at one of the Ulster hospital in the physio department and some of the people there are responsible for much of the physio work done on Ulster players.

There is a big difference being open about your contacts and making specific references than making a blanket claim that a 1000 people know. Even if true there is no way a 1000 people know it to be true. Thats just groundless gossip.

You really need to look in the mirror.

Yep, imagine there are other people on other forums who have even closer contacts to the present squad. Bearing in mind how close the Munster team are to the various clubs in Munster (quite a few of the Munster squad would play regularly in the AIL), it would be hardly surprising if there were not several posters on Munster fans who would be fairly friendly and in the know of the Munster squad.

My point about Munsterfans is that it one of the most popular rugby sites in europe. It has 7,000 members and at this moment in time, it has 237 online. TOD's dropping has been well discussed, so its quite possible that a sizeable number of those 7,000 would have discussed it. I'm pretty sure it would also be discussed around the bars in Munster as well.

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, sin has a point - both Howlett and Isa were universally despised in Irish provincial circles when they played here.  Irish people never warmed to them, which is suspicious right enough.

I really have no idea what you are getting at here.

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

This is disgusting stuff... Sin you are the first and only person to mention race with regards Zebo or any other irish player. Its been a wonderful thing for me (having lived in the US many years on and off, where race is a constant and horrible battle ground) watching how nothing has been made of the race of several essential players (both irish and non-Irish) for both country and province in the last 10 years; it shows we are becoming more cosmopolitan and accepting as a country. Retract the statement Sin.

First of all I think you should read what I wrote again very carefully.

I said that ANYONE WHO WANTED HIM EXCLUDED (as has been claimed that some senior players don't like him). Zebo has a very, laid back attitude which may come from his father's caribeean heritage which would seem to be why Zebo may not be appreciated in some circles.

So if senior players wanted him excluded it can't be because of how he shirked his responsibilities in the USA game to mind himself for his Lions jolly up? It couldn't be because they don't like his attitude to women or his trouble making on his own holiday in the USA? No? Theyre all jealous racists?

Laughable. Can't take anything you say remotely serious ever again.

Notch wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

Jaaysus man. I used to enjoy your banter. although you go over the top sometimes I thought most of it was tongue in cheek. But this above is just immature rubbish.

It's unbelievable Sub. Incredibly unpleasant and unfair.

I note you have not come up with a rationale (or a link) to why TOD didn't make the 23 (not even a travelling sub) for the games after the England game in the 6Ns.

Geoff, I don't exactly know when Kiss said there were issues with TOD's defence (except it was some time during the 6Nations and it was in some newspaper interview with Kiss).

I really couldn't be bothered to look for it, but for the really curious I'm sure there will be links to it on Munsterfans.

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

This is disgusting stuff... Sin you are the first and only person to mention race with regards Zebo or any other irish player. Its been a wonderful thing for me (having lived in the US many years on and off, where race is a constant and horrible battle ground) watching how nothing has been made of the race of several essential players (both irish and non-Irish) for both country and province in the last 10 years; it shows we are becoming more cosmopolitan and accepting as a country. Retract the statement Sin.

First of all I think you should read what I wrote again very carefully.

I said that ANYONE WHO WANTED HIM EXCLUDED (as has been claimed that some senior players don't like him). Zebo has a very, laid back attitude which may come from his father's caribeean heritage which would seem to be why Zebo may not be appreciated in some circles.

So if senior players wanted him excluded it can't be because of how he shirked his responsibilities in the USA game to mind himself for his Lions jolly up? It couldn't be because they don't like his attitude to women or his trouble making on his own holiday in the USA? No? Theyre all jealous racists?

Laughable. Can't take anything you say remotely serious ever again.

Well, they are hypocrites if they didn't give Conor Murray the same treatment. I don't think POC or any of the Munster senior players like POM have any issue with Zebo.

As for the car stuff .... Doug Howlett got into hotwater and most of the Munster senior players at the time just gave him a fierce slagging over it. All Zebo was doing was emulating Dougie when you think about it.  

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

This is disgusting stuff... Sin you are the first and only person to mention race with regards Zebo or any other irish player. Its been a wonderful thing for me (having lived in the US many years on and off, where race is a constant and horrible battle ground) watching how nothing has been made of the race of several essential players (both irish and non-Irish) for both country and province in the last 10 years; it shows we are becoming more cosmopolitan and accepting as a country. Retract the statement Sin.

First of all I think you should read what I wrote again very carefully.

I said that ANYONE WHO WANTED HIM EXCLUDED (as has been claimed that some senior players don't like him). Zebo has a very, laid back attitude which may come from his father's caribeean heritage which would seem to be why Zebo may not be appreciated in some circles.

So if senior players wanted him excluded it can't be because of how he shirked his responsibilities in the USA game to mind himself for his Lions jolly up? It couldn't be because they don't like his attitude to women or his trouble making on his own holiday in the USA? No? Theyre all jealous racists?

Laughable. Can't take anything you say remotely serious ever again.

Well, they are hypocrites if they didn't give Conor Murray the same treatment. I don't think POC or any of the Munster senior players like POM have any issue with Zebo.

As for the car stuff .... Doug Howlett got into hotwater and most of the Munster senior players at the time just gave him a fierce slagging over it. All Zebo was doing was emulating Dougie when you think about it.  

Hypocrite, jealous racists. right glad you've cleared that one up then.

What if Zebo and TOD were dropped because the coach felt other players were better suited? Either indiviually, executing the game plan or for squad morale??

This is pathetic stuff even by your standard Sin.

When was the last time Ireland won 3 away games on the bounce against tier 1 opposition?

On the whole POC doesn't like Schmidt thing, I am not so sure. I think that there is a very mutual respect between the two myself. That said, in the interviews, POC does seem a little cold but that is probably more to do with the journalists approach.

All the Irish journalists are swooning over JS (many posters on here as well) basically hailing him as the best thing to happen to Irish rugby ever. Now that must get a little annoying when you are confronted with those statements constantly and especially if you are POC who really does believe in team effort and crediting the team first and formost. POC is actually a very humble man.

This perceived dislike, in my opinion, does not stem from POC or Schmidt but more from the journalistic approach.

Nachos stop bringing sensible well thought out opinions to this discussion.
Only tribal jingoistic rage is appropriate.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Sin é wrote:anyone else who wanted him exclused were just jealous of him and his talent or just being racist.

Jaaysus man. I used to enjoy your banter. although you go over the top sometimes I thought most of it was tongue in cheek. But this above is just immature rubbish.

It's unbelievable Sub. Incredibly unpleasant and unfair.

I note you have not come up with a rationale (or a link) to why TOD didn't make the 23 (not even a travelling sub) for the games after the England game in the 6Ns.

Why do I need to? I've already said there's nothing between him and Jordi Murphy in terms of quality and I have zero problems with either of them. It's not like he dropped O'Connell for some Leinster Academy lock. It's a very, very tight call between them. O'Donnell maybe isn't even the best open side in Munster and it will be a great battle between him and Dougall for the shirt next year. It's not some controversial decision.