Warren Gatland swooping for Chiefs' Gareth Anscombe?

by Guest Mon 21 Apr 2014, 9:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Warren Gatland's search for a star playmaker to orchestrate Wales’ World Cup challenge has turned to New Zealand.

And not only has Wales coach Gatland put Super 15 star Gareth Anscombe top of his shopping list but that Cardiff Blues are set to table a bid to lure the Welsh-qualified back to the Arms Park.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/warren-gatland-targets-chiefs-star-7014342

Thoughts? I'm sure Anscombe would be a great asset for the Blues, and if the All Blacks don't want him I'm sure Wales would. But I'm usually against these kind of things.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 10:50 am

GunsGerms wrote:Wow Leinster's attendances have risen since their first professional season. You really are a genius Quins.

ok u obviously didnt read it or didnt understand the relevant bit:

"Leinster had 3,700 season ticket holders in 2006, double the amount of the previous season.[44] Leinster were the best supported team in the PRO12 for the 2006–07, 2007–08 and 2011–12 seasons. Leinster's supporters were named as 'Player of the Month' for April 2009 following their support in the Heineken Cup Quarter Final against Harlequins at The Stoop.[45] Leinster's average crowd numbers have risen considerably in recent years from 3,926 during the first season of the PRO12, to the current PRO12 average of 18,682.[46] Leinster currently have roughly 12,500 season ticket holders.[47]

Leinster season ticket holders went from 1,850 in 2005 to 12,500 currently. a period coinciding with the beginning of Leinster's HC successes and consistently being top3 in the Rabo.

professionalism started in 1995.

the big increase in Leinster's support grew along with their successes in Rabo and HC.

you're welcome.

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 10:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the grey area between the black and white Guns. It's a type of Hartley vs Waldrom argument (although Waldrom's was a forgotten Grandma). The rules are satisfied but it doesn't take into account whether they consider themselves as English; if it should at all.

What should the test be? Put them in a room and play GSTQ and see how long it is before they crack?

Or hook them up to a lie detector, feed them yorkshire puddings, jellied eels and warm beer and ask them if they think English food is nice?

I dont think it matters whether they consider themselves English to be eligable. If I was a selector all that would matter to me is how much they want to play for England. I interview a lot of people and I tend to go for the capable person who really wants the job over the really intellegent person who just isnt arsed.

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 10:55 am

quinsforever wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Wow Leinster's attendances have risen since their first professional season. You really are a genius Quins.
ok u obviously didnt read it or didnt understand the relevant bit:

"Leinster had 3,700 season ticket holders in 2006, double the amount of the previous season.[44] Leinster were the best supported team in the PRO12 for the 2006–07, 2007–08 and 2011–12 seasons. Leinster's supporters were named as 'Player of the Month' for April 2009 following their support in the Heineken Cup Quarter Final against Harlequins at The Stoop.[45] Leinster's average crowd numbers have risen considerably in recent years from 3,926 during the first season of the PRO12, to the current PRO12 average of 18,682.[46] Leinster currently have roughly 12,500 season ticket holders.[47]

Leinster season ticket holders went from 1,850 in 2005 to 12,500 currently. a period coinciding with the beginning of Leinster's HC successes and consistently being top3 in the Rabo.

professionalism started in 1995.

the big increase in Leinster's support grew along with their successes in Rabo and HC.

you're welcome.

I find your posts insanely boring though so didnt bother reading it. If I though you had any clue what you were talking about I might consider it.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 10:58 am

you are obviously not very bright. you throw your toys out the pram, then refuse to acknowledge new information. reminds me of how my 4 yr old used to be. but he's grown out of that now thankfully.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 11:00 am

GunsGerms wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the grey area between the black and white Guns. It's a type of Hartley vs Waldrom argument (although Waldrom's was a forgotten Grandma). The rules are satisfied but it doesn't take into account whether they consider themselves as English; if it should at all.

What should the test be? Put them in a room and play GSTQ and see how long it is before they crack?

Or hook them up to a lie detector, feed them yorkshire puddings, jellied eels and warm beer and ask them if they think English food is nice?

I dont think it matters whether they consider themselves English to be eligable. If I was a selector all that would matter to me is how much they want to play for England. I interview a lot of people and I tend to go for the capable person who really wants the job over the really intellegent person who just isnt arsed.

There isn't a rule which would or could cover the possibilities to my personal satisfaction. Didn't like Waldrom who did it purely for the money imo, no problem with Hartley. I'd like to see England coaches selection in these cases influenced by the actual people and what they think they're getting from it. Would Waldrom have chosen England over NZ would have been my starter question. If the answer was no which I suspect it was then I wouldn't have had him. I'm not naive enough to think that comes into the equation very much for a professional International manager though.

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 11:01 am

quinsforever wrote:you are obviously not very bright. you throw your toys out the pram, then refuse to acknowledge new information. reminds me of how my 4 yr old used to be. but he's grown out of that now thankfully.

What makes you think its new information. You are a Quins fan who knows nothing about Leinster trying to educate a Leinster fan about Leinster. You are not worth talking to most of the time.

It would be great if there was an electronic forum version of a fly swatter for annoying wums like you.

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 11:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

There isn't a rule which would or could cover the possibilities to my personal satisfaction. Didn't like Waldrom who did it purely for the money imo, no problem with Hartley. I'd like to see England coaches selection in these cases influenced by the actual people and what they think they're getting from it. Would Waldrom have chosen England over NZ would have been my starter question. If the answer was no which I suspect it was then I wouldn't have had him. I'm not naive enough to think that comes into the equation very much for a professional International manager though.

Fair enough I understand where you are coming from. Michael Bent being parachuted into the Ireland squad didnt sit well with me at all but Im happy to accept it when it is only in cases of emergency.

by **Notch** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 11:33 am

quinsforever wrote:jeez. the sport is either professional or its not. you cant be half-pregnant. ireland have been amongst the biggest beneficiaries thus far of professionalism at club and international level. if that changes as the money increases in the game then i'm sorry but thats just tough. you cant hold back the tide just cause you really like where it is just at this moment in time.

You're pretending like it's a choice between either a completely free market or amateurism. Thats black and white thinking, a tremendous oversimplification. It's very untrue to say that its impossible to find a middle way. It might be difficult but rugby doesn't necessarily need to kowtow to the money men and lose it's soul. It's not inevitable.

It is tough, and if the juggernaught isn't stopped it'll be tough for everyone who likes rugby except the fans of 2 or 3 super-rich clubs. Can't take anyone who sees that as anything other than a tragedy seriously as either a rugby fan or a moral human being.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 11:49 am

cant agree with you Notch. it IS a choice between free market or amateurism. any attempt at a hybrid is going to likely lose out to whoever embraces the free market. in fact that is what is currently going on in the professional club game. i know you dont like it but thats basically because you are a passionate supporter of Provincial rugby. that's fair enough. but the altruism argument isnt very compelling.

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 11:53 am

There is no such thing as a free market. Every market has rules and regulations including competition laws. In the business world there are laws against monopolies because fair competition is important for the consumer because not only do we desire choice but competition also ensures a better product. Rugby is no different. No one wants to see one cash rich team dominate. It would make rugby completely pointless.

Everybody knows that the utopian idea of a free market is a very foolish idea because greed is part of human nature.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 11:54 am

look at football for instance... we all preach a lot about sportsmanship and how football can learn a thing or two from rugby... but how many residency qualified players have turned out for England etc?

How many come through having English grannies brought up elsewhere? Owen Hargreaves although he grew up in a non football nation, son of an ex english pro and from that it would seem normal that England was his natural choice. Any others of late? John Barnes and that Aussie chap with the massive perm at Liverpool in the 80s (although if I recall he never got capped).. johnson something?

The young kid at Man Utd was mentioned as potentially playing for England and as soon as it did Jack Wilshere came out and said England for English players only.... what we all seemingly agree with but he got slated in the press.

Vs rugby in this case.... football has the moral upper hand and we should hang our head in shame on this one.

by **Notch** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 11:56 am

It's not because I'm a provincial supporter. It's because clubs like Toulon have a parasitic relationship with the rest of the rugby world. They make global rugby in general weaker for their benefit. They don't develop players in their locality, they don't develop players for their national slide they merely siphon off the best talent from elsewhere. It's not altruism to suggest we try and have a system which doesn't encourage teams backed by outside investment conducting smash and grab raids on the nations who make professional rugby possible.

We desperately need a system which rewards teams who promote homegrown talent over that otherwise international rugby in the northern hemisphere will become weak, and as players drain from the SH their structures will become weaker due to falling quality and clubs like Toulon are relying on the SH Super Rugby sides to do all the hard work developing their players for them. So what happens when the SH teams are dropping off and player development in the NH is dropping off? Being professional shouldn't be a synonym for being unsustainable.

I mean, in France their Academy systems are getting weaker and weaker as owners divert cash into short-term spending sprees to keep up with the Joneses. It's slowly strangling the game to death if we keep down this road. A balance needs to be struck between developing talent and importing talent otherwise the quality of the game world wide is going to suffer.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 12:10 pm

Toulon aren't as bad as you say. The players they have bought up are mainly the discarded in their own countries. The best players in Ireland save Sexton, play in Ireland. The best in England, play in England.

What more do you want?

These chaps are not wanted by their home unions and clubs like Toulon give them a chane to showcase their skills.

Seeing Danie Russouw as lock dominate Leinster was great to see. He would probably be retired now had it not been for the opportunities in NH rugby.... and its great to see that these old timers still have it.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 12:15 pm

France have a big league... 14 clubs for 1 nation, there are a lot of places available and its a tough league so they need large squads.

Thats 210 starters in the top league each week... compared to 60 in Ireland, 60 in Wales, 30 in Scotland and 75 a piece in SA, NZ & AUS. Only England with 180 starting positions available can compete.

I would bet more Frenchman play pro rugby week in week out then any other nation. In essence if its ruining the French being able to develop their own stars who are the rest of the world to worry.... should be thankful as they one of the few countries (perhaps only NZ & marginally SA) who has it all, great big talented forwards, amazingly skilful backs. If they were as organised as say Ireland they would win GS after GS after GS.

by **Notch** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 12:19 pm

Oh they would. But the way the Top14 is is one of the major reasons they don't!

by **Biltong** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 12:22 pm

I love the reasoning that free market has basically removed all sense of patriotism, honour, tradition etc.

F that, let's all throw away the last vestiges of our core values and belief systems and just go for the money.

No need to draw any lines, money trumps everything, let's all buy successful teams and instead of playing tournaments just give the trophy to the wealthiest teams/countries

Why waste our time, energy and loyalties by supporting sport.

We have become a society that identifies with money, stuff anything else.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 12:22 pm

But Notch, thats up to them. They do alright even though everyone says oh the French are terrible etc.

Great in pro rugby, most GS titles, lots of HCs. 2 RWC final appearances. I don't think they're complaining too much. Everyone goes through good and bad parts but I don't think its having a bad impact on say Ireland.. save Sexton its hardly killing your game.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 12:24 pm

Biltong wrote:I love the reasoning that free market has basically removed all sense of patriotism, honour, tradition etc.

F that, let's all throw away the last vestiges of our core values and belief systems and just go for the money.

No need to draw any lines, money trumps everything, let's all buy successful teams and instead of playing tournaments just give the trophy to the wealthiest teams/countries

Why waste our time, energy and loyalties by supporting sport.

We have become a society that identifies with money, stuff anything else.

And how is SA any different BB?

The Lions, PE & Cheetahs are as much feeder teams to the Stormers, Bulls & Sharks now as they have ever been.

If talent and generation were the only indicators the FS would have ruled for the last 20 years. Who are currently bottom of the ladder?

by Guest Fri 25 Apr 2014, 12:52 pm

IronMike wrote:Well, looking at it from NZ's point of view, if you grew up watching your side completely destroy another its harder to show that side respect.

It's an age thing. I was at Cardiff Arms Park in 1964 when the All Blacks beat the Barbarians in the last match of the tour captained by Wilson Whineray. He himself scored a great try for a prop, running 25 yards and dummying the full-back. At the end of the game, we in the crowd - a Welsh crowd - respected Whineray and his team by spontaneously singing "For he's a jolly good fellow" and "Now is the hour". Whineray was chaired off the pitch by players and spectators. He and his team responded with smiles and waves. It was a very happy occasion. Sentimental, maybe, but would it happen now in the harder-nosed professional era, in Wales, NZ or anywhere else?

Of course, the Barbarians weren't Wales. Earlier in the tour, NZ had beaten Wales. That was only the 5th game between the two countries and it made the score 3 wins for Wales and 2 to NZ. On the next All Blacks tour, led by Brian Lochore in 1967, NZ won again. That evened up the results between them - 3 wins and 3 defeats each. So, you see, for me and people of similar age, in Wales and NZ, we didn't grow up watching one of the two sides completely destroying the other as perhaps you did. By 1967 I was married and had been playing rugby (at a lower level) for 14 years.

Everyone knows that the last time Wales beat NZ was in 1953, and the later wins by Whineray and Lochore's sides might have been seen as the writing on the wall. But that's with hindsight. Nobody in 1967 predicted the many defeats which Wales have experienced since then. People would have been amazed at the number of short tours now held and the number of international matches played every season.

I think the turning-point was reached in 1969. For the first time Wales toured NZ. They went as 5 Nations champions and were expected to do well, but NZ fans told me how really disappointed they were with Wales. I heard some people wanted the ticket money back! Although they didn't lose any provincial matches, Wales were smashed in the two tests, with the Welsh forwards unable to cope with a great NZ pack. Although Welsh backs were prominent in the Lions series win in 1971, and despite a couple of close games in the '70s, the mutual respect between Wales and NZ never recovered and was gradually replaced with something less palatable to an old rugby man like me.

Sorry about the long post. I understand why you say it's hard to show respect to a side if you've grown up watching your team completely destroying them. But, considering how things once were between Wales and NZ, it's still a shame.

by blackcanelion Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:02 pm

I haven't followed all of this. So excuse me if I miss something obvious. Here some questions:

1 why do we have qualification rules?

2 what do the current rules achieve?

3. Could they be improved?

Why do we have qualification rules for international rugby? Seems a straight forward question and answer. Presumably there is something special about playing for a nation that's different from a club/professional province. There has to be a link.

What do the current laws achieve. Not much I think. The key point is that they restrict a player to one team. This choice is made when they accept selection and turn out for of two nominated teams. The other is a link to that nation. I think this becoming less relevent. There's automatic selection for the usual reasons (e.g. Birth), but it's pretty easy to qualify through your club (residency). It seems to me the resisency road for professional athletes is largely one way traffic up the financial pyramid.

What could be done better? I think the issue is residency. Get this right and most people will be relatively satisfied.

P.s. I mentioned previously I thought football was ahead of us. Having further negotiated the legalise and read a few legal opinions I'm now unsure.

by The Saint Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:15 pm

IronMike wrote:Well, looking at it from NZ's point of view, if you grew up watching your side completely destroy another its harder to show that side respect.

That's what I was thinking around the time of McShingler-gate to be honest, though I didn't post it. I was too busy trying to convince people that Wales had done nothing wrong in this scenario, which wasn't going well to say the least. Since watching U20s rugby I never pictured guys like Maitland playing for another country, I can't see Anscombe doing so either. Given the fly-half curse NZ get every RWC, I expect there will eventually be an opening for him. Right now he's behind Carter, Cruden and Barrett as far as I can tell.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:20 pm

optimist wrote:
IronMike wrote:Well, looking at it from NZ's point of view, if you grew up watching your side completely destroy another its harder to show that side respect.

It's an age thing. I was at Cardiff Arms Park in 1964 when the All Blacks beat the Barbarians in the last match of the tour captained by Wilson Whineray. He himself scored a great try for a prop, running 25 yards and dummying the full-back. At the end of the game, we in the crowd - a Welsh crowd - respected Whineray and his team by spontaneously singing "For he's a jolly good fellow" and "Now is the hour". Whineray was chaired off the pitch by players and spectators. He and his team responded with smiles and waves. It was a very happy occasion. Sentimental, maybe, but would it happen now in the harder-nosed professional era, in Wales, NZ or anywhere else?

Of course, the Barbarians weren't Wales. Earlier in the tour, NZ had beaten Wales. That was only the 5th game between the two countries and it made the score 3 wins for Wales and 2 to NZ. On the next All Blacks tour, led by Brian Lochore in 1967, NZ won again. That evened up the results between them - 3 wins and 3 defeats each. So, you see, for me and people of similar age, in Wales and NZ, we didn't grow up watching one of the two sides completely destroying the other as perhaps you did. By 1967 I was married and had been playing rugby (at a lower level) for 14 years.

Everyone knows that the last time Wales beat NZ was in 1953, and the later wins by Whineray and Lochore's sides might have been seen as the writing on the wall. But that's with hindsight. Nobody in 1967 predicted the many defeats which Wales have experienced since then. People would have been amazed at the number of short tours now held and the number of international matches played every season.

I think the turning-point was reached in 1969. For the first time Wales toured NZ. They went as 5 Nations champions and were expected to do well, but NZ fans told me how really disappointed they were with Wales. I heard some people wanted the ticket money back! Although they didn't lose any provincial matches, Wales were smashed in the two tests, with the Welsh forwards unable to cope with a great NZ pack. Although Welsh backs were prominent in the Lions series win in 1971, and despite a couple of close games in the '70s, the mutual respect between Wales and NZ never recovered and was gradually replaced with something less palatable to an old rugby man like me.

Sorry about the long post. I understand why you say it's hard to show respect to a side if you've grown up watching your team completely destroying them. But, considering how things once were between Wales and NZ, it's still a shame.

Sort of understand dude.

I'm a scotland fan who gre up watching our great team of the late 80s/early 90s. Back then you would have never thought it was to be downhill from then on.

But 20 years is a long time in rugby and you're only as good as your last game or two today. These days 5 years ago is pre-historic.

by The Saint Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:24 pm

fa0019 wrote:

These guys are competitors, I bet a chap like Gareth never ran around a rugby pitched aged 8 pretending to play for Wales, thats not an insult, its just probably true.

Its probably their ultimate goal, everything to have worked for to have pulled on a AB jersey. Saying a guy who starts for his strong SR team each week aged 22 and has already won the title with them should give that up because there are at the moment better players in the position is simply laughable.

What drivel. Given where Gareth was from his dream wouldn't be anything other than playing for Wales (if not, Swansea). I can't imagine anyone growing up wanting to play for another country, not unless they moved there or had some parental influence which formed an attachment to that country. They especially wouldn't if they're from Wales, given our rich history in rugby union.

I do agree that Maitland should have waited longer though, his time was going to come.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:27 pm

for such an evil club, toulon have done a pretty good job of resuscitating the careers of wilko, steffon armitage and delon armitage. any club that makes wilko captain is very much all right in my book. a model professional, who was getting blasted to pieces for his loyalty to a weak newcastle in the AP.

so let's here it for toulon for extending the playing career (and winning him last years European player of the year) of England's greatest every flyhalf. now that is something i think we should all be able to appreciate.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:27 pm

The Saint wrote:
fa0019 wrote:

These guys are competitors, I bet a chap like Gareth never ran around a rugby pitched aged 8 pretending to play for Wales, thats not an insult, its just probably true.

Its probably their ultimate goal, everything to have worked for to have pulled on a AB jersey. Saying a guy who starts for his strong SR team each week aged 22 and has already won the title with them should give that up because there are at the moment better players in the position is simply laughable.

What drivel. Given where Gareth was from his dream wouldn't be anything other than playing for Wales (if not, Swansea). I can't imagine anyone growing up wanting to play for another country, not unless they moved there or had some parental influence which formed an attachment to that country. They especially wouldn't if they're from Wales, given our rich history in rugby union.

I do agree that Maitland should have waited longer though, his time was going to come.

Do you even know who Gareth is? Swansea... is that another name for Auckland?

by The Saint Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:30 pm

fa0019 wrote:
The Saint wrote:
fa0019 wrote:

These guys are competitors, I bet a chap like Gareth never ran around a rugby pitched aged 8 pretending to play for Wales, thats not an insult, its just probably true.

Its probably their ultimate goal, everything to have worked for to have pulled on a AB jersey. Saying a guy who starts for his strong SR team each week aged 22 and has already won the title with them should give that up because there are at the moment better players in the position is simply laughable.

What drivel. Given where Gareth was from his dream wouldn't be anything other than playing for Wales (if not, Swansea). I can't imagine anyone growing up wanting to play for another country, not unless they moved there or had some parental influence which formed an attachment to that country. They especially wouldn't if they're from Wales, given our rich history in rugby union.

I do agree that Maitland should have waited longer though, his time was going to come.

Do you even know who Gareth is? Swansea... is that another name for Auckland?

I was under the impression you were reminiscing, and talking about Gareth Edwards. IF you were talking about Anscombe then I agree, I doubt his mind is set on playing for anyone other than NZ. I hope for his own sake he stays put Smile

.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:32 pm

The Saint wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
The Saint wrote:
fa0019 wrote:

These guys are competitors, I bet a chap like Gareth never ran around a rugby pitched aged 8 pretending to play for Wales, thats not an insult, its just probably true.

Its probably their ultimate goal, everything to have worked for to have pulled on a AB jersey. Saying a guy who starts for his strong SR team each week aged 22 and has already won the title with them should give that up because there are at the moment better players in the position is simply laughable.

What drivel. Given where Gareth was from his dream wouldn't be anything other than playing for Wales (if not, Swansea). I can't imagine anyone growing up wanting to play for another country, not unless they moved there or had some parental influence which formed an attachment to that country. They especially wouldn't if they're from Wales, given our rich history in rugby union.

I do agree that Maitland should have waited longer though, his time was going to come.

Do you even know who Gareth is? Swansea... is that another name for Auckland?

I was under the impression you were reminiscing, and talking about Gareth Edwards. IF you were talking about Anscombe then I agree, I doubt his mind is set on playing for anyone other than NZ. I hope for his own sake he stays put .

You been raiding granddad's liquer cabinet again Saint???

Has the name been retired in Wales in homage of the great one???

by **Notch** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:35 pm

Agree with all that bcl.

As blatant as it seems in this particular instance, there is no law change I would support that would prevent someone who is dual-qualified through having a parent in two nations from representing either country.

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:41 pm

Biltong wrote:I love the reasoning that free market has basically removed all sense of patriotism, honour, tradition etc.

F that, let's all throw away the last vestiges of our core values and belief systems and just go for the money.

No need to draw any lines, money trumps everything, let's all buy successful teams and instead of playing tournaments just give the trophy to the wealthiest teams/countries

Why waste our time, energy and loyalties by supporting sport.

We have become a society that identifies with money, stuff anything else.

Spot on Billtong. Free market economies dont exist anyway. I cant think of one, every market that I can think of is regulated because experience has shown that human nature is when faced with the opportunity to be greedy.

by fa0019 Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:45 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Biltong wrote:I love the reasoning that free market has basically removed all sense of patriotism, honour, tradition etc.

F that, let's all throw away the last vestiges of our core values and belief systems and just go for the money.

No need to draw any lines, money trumps everything, let's all buy successful teams and instead of playing tournaments just give the trophy to the wealthiest teams/countries

Why waste our time, energy and loyalties by supporting sport.

We have become a society that identifies with money, stuff anything else.

Spot on Billtong. Free market economies dont exist anyway. I cant think of one, every market that I can think of is regulated because experience has shown that human nature is when faced with the opportunity to be greedy.

Obviously never worked in the oil business then Guns???

by blackcanelion Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:51 pm

Notch wrote:Agree with all that bcl.

As blatant as it seems in this particular instance, there is no law change I would support that would prevent someone who is dual-qualified through having a parent in two nations from representing either country.

Agreed. His mum's Welsh. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 1:56 pm

you talk a load off nonsense.

the dawn of professionalism in rugby has boosted quality, crowds, and hugely employment since rugby players became "free" to sell their services into the "market".

patriotism has not been affected one whit. thats why the RWC and 6N and 4N continue to be the pinnacles of the game.

during the amateur era, which was not-quite-as-amateur-as-it-should-have-been, decisions were made which were absolutely not in the interests of rugby, but meant to preserve the blazer hegemony.

at least now motives are honestly laid out in transparent plans (RFU for example) and "money" is the currency which permits those laudable aims to be realised. Coaching at schools and youth levels. Insurance for players. etc. etc.

you do realise the stupidity in castigating a "free market" when what exists in professional club and international rugby is a series of localised monopolies/oligopolies?

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:02 pm

fa0019 wrote:

Obviously never worked in the oil business then Guns???

It isnt exactly a free market enonomy however, fair point, it is as close as you can get to a free market enconomy as you could probably get because a few stakeholders have formed a cartel and hold all the wealth monopolising the market.

Would we really want this model for rugby union?

by **Biltong** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:03 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Biltong wrote:I love the reasoning that free market has basically removed all sense of patriotism, honour, tradition etc.

F that, let's all throw away the last vestiges of our core values and belief systems and just go for the money.

No need to draw any lines, money trumps everything, let's all buy successful teams and instead of playing tournaments just give the trophy to the wealthiest teams/countries

Why waste our time, energy and loyalties by supporting sport.

We have become a society that identifies with money, stuff anything else.

And how is SA any different BB?

The Lions, PE & Cheetahs are as much feeder teams to the Stormers, Bulls & Sharks now as they have ever been.

If talent and generation were the only indicators the FS would have ruled for the last 20 years. Who are currently bottom of the ladder?

They are not different FA, hence I don't support one specific Franchise or province.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:05 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
fa0019 wrote:

Obviously never worked in the oil business then Guns???

It isnt exactly a free market enonomy however, fair point, it is as close as you can get to a free market enconomy as you could probably get because a few stakeholders have formed a cartel and hold all the wealth monopolising the market.

Would we really want this model for rugby union?

that is the model you have for rugby union

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:08 pm

It isnt. It is the model that the PRL clearly want for European rugby and have so far suceeded in getting by disbanding the independant regulatory body the ERC.

The ERC had regulated European rugby in such a way to create an equilibrum accross competing nations where other nations had the power to monopolise.

The PRL suceeded in disbanding this regulatory body so that they could as they call have more of a "meritocracy" structure or inevitably a monopoly.

by **Biltong** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:09 pm

quinsforever wrote:the dawn of professionalism in rugby has boosted quality, crowds, and hugely employment since rugby players became "free" to sell their services into the "market".

There is a difference between selling your service in a free market, and countries boosting their player stocks. An accountant does not represent his country when he takes a job overseas, nobody cares what happens to him in a free market system, however millions of kids and adults are affected when their heroes represent other countries who have poaching systems in place.

quinsforever wrote:patriotism has not been affected one whit. thats why the RWC and 6N and 4N continue to be the pinnacles of the game.

For how much longer?

You do realise the "patriotism" you so keenly judge as not being affected is the reason why these arguments exist?

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:10 pm

ERC is not an independent regulatory body you silly boy. It is the equivalent of OPEC - it is the convener of the cartel.

but not to worry because the new thing is exactly the same anyway in this respect.

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:13 pm

quinsforever wrote:ERC is not an independent regulatory body you silly boy. It is the equivalent of OPEC - it is the convener of the cartel.

but not to worry because the new thing is exactly the same anyway in this respect.

It was much more independant that it is now and the structure and regulations were there to maintain market equilibrum. This has been erroded by the PRLs greed.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:16 pm

Biltong wrote:
quinsforever wrote:the dawn of professionalism in rugby has boosted quality, crowds, and hugely employment since rugby players became "free" to sell their services into the "market".

There is a difference between selling your service in a free market, and countries boosting their player stocks. An accountant does not represent his country when he takes a job overseas, nobody cares what happens to him in a free market system, however millions of kids and adults are affected when their heroes represent other countries who have poaching systems in place.

quinsforever wrote:patriotism has not been affected one whit. thats why the RWC and 6N and 4N continue to be the pinnacles of the game.

For how much longer?

You do realise the "patriotism" you so keenly judge as not being affected is the reason why these arguments exist?

works both ways biltong. i am thrilled to have witnessed jonny wilkinson's career extended long beyond what would have been possible at Newcastle by his move to Toulon. and i am really excited following Sextons progress at Racing. club rugby for me is club rugby. international rugby is international rugby. they are separate in my mind. the crux of this debate is whether people can separate club from national feelings/loyalties. the irish cant. the kiwis cant. saffers mostly can (isnt current SA policy that you cant win a cap playing overseas, but once you get one you can get picked again even if playing overseas?). the french and english clearly can. ironically the welsh can.

loyalty to club is just as valid as loyalty to country. but the reality is that the honour of playing for country is far greater, and far far harder to acquire.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:18 pm

optimist wrote:Sorry about the long post..

Always got time to read posts like yours. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:19 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
quinsforever wrote:ERC is not an independent regulatory body you silly boy. It is the equivalent of OPEC - it is the convener of the cartel.

but not to worry because the new thing is exactly the same anyway in this respect.

It was more independant that it is now.

no. it now has 9 voting representatives vs previously only 8 (RRW get their own vote). so it now is more independent.

u picked a really bad example guns. PRL, LNR, SANZAR, ERC (or replacement) are exactly and precisely cartels. as is the 6N organisation. they exist collectively represent the interests of their members and get as much money as they can for their monopolised product.

by **Notch** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:23 pm

quinsforever wrote:i am really excited following Sextons progress at Racing.

Everything else aside, this is the funniest bit. You weren't bothered when Sexton was twice the player in club rugby he is now at Leinster when they were one of the best teams in Europe, but now he's looking frankly unimpressive at a mediocre mid table French team you can't get enough! Laugh

by **Biltong** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:28 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Biltong wrote:
quinsforever wrote:the dawn of professionalism in rugby has boosted quality, crowds, and hugely employment since rugby players became "free" to sell their services into the "market".

There is a difference between selling your service in a free market, and countries boosting their player stocks. An accountant does not represent his country when he takes a job overseas, nobody cares what happens to him in a free market system, however millions of kids and adults are affected when their heroes represent other countries who have poaching systems in place.

quinsforever wrote:patriotism has not been affected one whit. thats why the RWC and 6N and 4N continue to be the pinnacles of the game.

For how much longer?

You do realise the "patriotism" you so keenly judge as not being affected is the reason why these arguments exist?
works both ways biltong. i am thrilled to have witnessed jonny wilkinson's career extended long beyond what would have been possible at Newcastle by his move to Toulon. and i am really excited following Sextons progress at Racing. club rugby for me is club rugby. international rugby is international rugby. they are separate in my mind. the crux of this debate is whether people can separate club from national feelings/loyalties. the irish cant. the kiwis cant. saffers mostly can (isnt current SA policy that you cant win a cap playing overseas, but once you get one you can get picked again even if playing overseas?). the french and english clearly can. ironically the welsh can.

loyalty to club is just as valid as loyalty to country. but the reality is that the honour of playing for country is far greater, and far far harder to acquire.

Then you are arguing my point for me, I have no issue with players going to play club rugby for more money, I have an issue with youngsters being poached to represent other nations.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:31 pm

Biltong wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Biltong wrote:
quinsforever wrote:the dawn of professionalism in rugby has boosted quality, crowds, and hugely employment since rugby players became "free" to sell their services into the "market".

There is a difference between selling your service in a free market, and countries boosting their player stocks. An accountant does not represent his country when he takes a job overseas, nobody cares what happens to him in a free market system, however millions of kids and adults are affected when their heroes represent other countries who have poaching systems in place.

quinsforever wrote:patriotism has not been affected one whit. thats why the RWC and 6N and 4N continue to be the pinnacles of the game.

For how much longer?

You do realise the "patriotism" you so keenly judge as not being affected is the reason why these arguments exist?
works both ways biltong. i am thrilled to have witnessed jonny wilkinson's career extended long beyond what would have been possible at Newcastle by his move to Toulon. and i am really excited following Sextons progress at Racing. club rugby for me is club rugby. international rugby is international rugby. they are separate in my mind. the crux of this debate is whether people can separate club from national feelings/loyalties. the irish cant. the kiwis cant. saffers mostly can (isnt current SA policy that you cant win a cap playing overseas, but once you get one you can get picked again even if playing overseas?). the french and english clearly can. ironically the welsh can.

loyalty to club is just as valid as loyalty to country. but the reality is that the honour of playing for country is far greater, and far far harder to acquire.

Then you are arguing my point for me, I have no issue with players going to play club rugby for more money, I have an issue with youngsters being poached to represent other nations.

then we agree. i thought you were arguing guns point about the money in club rugby. he and i both misunderstood you.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 2:36 pm

Notch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:i am really excited following Sextons progress at Racing.

Everything else aside, this is the funniest bit. You weren't bothered when Sexton was twice the player in club rugby he is now at Leinster when they were one of the best teams in Europe, but now he's looking frankly unimpressive at a mediocre mid table French team you can't get enough!

i am interested because i like to see how he copes and whether he improves or not. is much more challenging (from a comfort perspective) than playing with the same players you have grown up playing with so i am really interested in how that is working out for him.

and fwiw, sexton is better (in terms of greater experience and wiser) IMO now than he was when at leinster, and the only objective way to measure that is his performances in green. as only there is he unshackled from existing team setup. and in this 6N he for me was outstanding. player of the tournament by a long way, even above brown for me.

by GunsGerms Fri 25 Apr 2014, 4:18 pm

quinsforever wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
quinsforever wrote:ERC is not an independent regulatory body you silly boy. It is the equivalent of OPEC - it is the convener of the cartel.

but not to worry because the new thing is exactly the same anyway in this respect.

It was more independant that it is now.
no. it now has 9 voting representatives vs previously only 8 (RRW get their own vote). so it now is more independent.

u picked a really bad example guns. PRL, LNR, SANZAR, ERC (or replacement) are exactly and precisely cartels. as is the 6N organisation. they exist collectively represent the interests of their members and get as much money as they can for their monopolised product.

I didnt pick the example. In any case the point is rugby isnt a free market and nor should it be. We need rules and regulations to maintain equilibrum where there are financial imbalances and areas of too much power and thats what we had with the ERC.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Apr 2014, 4:34 pm

no thats not what ERC was. It was in no way shape or form a regulator, player discipline aside. ERC was a vehicle for making money for the 6 nations clubs taking part. It was never designed to address financial imbalances at all. You think it should do but thats absolutely nothing to do with what it was set up to do.

and the 6N is equally not a regulatory body - that is the IRB and individual unions. 6N is a cartel which exists to make as much money out of the 6N competition as possible and distribute it to the participating countries.

by Guest Fri 25 Apr 2014, 4:44 pm

quinsforever wrote:you talk a load off nonsense.

the dawn of professionalism in rugby has boosted quality, crowds, and hugely employment since rugby players became "free" to sell their services into the "market".

patriotism has not been affected one whit. thats why the RWC and 6N and 4N continue to be the pinnacles of the game.

during the amateur era, which was not-quite-as-amateur-as-it-should-have-been, decisions were made which were absolutely not in the interests of rugby, but meant to preserve the blazer hegemony.

at least now motives are honestly laid out in transparent plans (RFU for example) and "money" is the currency which permits those laudable aims to be realised. Coaching at schools and youth levels. Insurance for players. etc. etc.

you do realise the stupidity in castigating a "free market" when what exists in professional club and international rugby is a series of localised monopolies/oligopolies?

by **Notch** Fri 25 Apr 2014, 4:49 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Notch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:i am really excited following Sextons progress at Racing.

Everything else aside, this is the funniest bit. You weren't bothered when Sexton was twice the player in club rugby he is now at Leinster when they were one of the best teams in Europe, but now he's looking frankly unimpressive at a mediocre mid table French team you can't get enough!
i am interested because i like to see how he copes and whether he improves or not. is much more challenging (from a comfort perspective) than playing with the same players you have grown up playing with so i am really interested in how that is working out for him.

and fwiw, sexton is better (in terms of greater experience and wiser) IMO now than he was when at leinster, and the only objective way to measure that is his performances in green. as only there is he unshackled from existing team setup. and in this 6N he for me was outstanding. player of the tournament by a long way, even above brown for me.

He doesn't look crap for Racing because he's suddenly crap now. He looks crap for Racing because they don't have a game plan/have failed to gel. A good player in a bad team looks bad. Thats true of Sexton in France this year, and Sexton at test level under Kidney.

Hs performances for Ireland are now at the level he was at for Leinster... which makes sense because the common denominator is Joe Schmidt. If it was just Sexton who has suddenly dramatically improved for Ireland then maybe you'd have a point, but it's pretty much every Ireland player who has improved. Especially the guys Schmidt worked with already at Leinster. Their performances at international level have all taken a massive leap forward at the same time which coincides with the period he's been the coach. How do you explain guys like D'Arcy, Heaslip and Toner suddenly making massive improvements for Ireland?

He's playing better for Ireland now because we've gone from having a coach who was out of his depth to a top class coach who knows his game inside out. I don't doubt he is a better player for the experience, or will be, but it's way down the list of factors of why he's been playing well for Ireland.

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