Ulster 2014/2015

First topic message reminder :

Details of pre-season games to confirmed- we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. On the transfer front, it seems like our business for the year is concluded. Second row looks strong and our back line is stronger than ever, but there are concerns about our depth in the front row and back row of the pack. A lot depends on Wiehahn Herbst turning out to be a hit and Chris Henry staying fit- our decision to spend a valuable NIQ spot on Louis Ludik and Sean Doyles departure leaves us exposed at open side with two new, extremely untested players in Reidy and Butterworth vying to be Henrys understudy. Rob Herring is another player who needs to avoid injury at all costs. Niall Annett has been allowed to leave along with Brady in recent seasons and the 3rd choice hooker is not obvious. With seedings in Europe determined by league performance, Ulster may very well rue their lack of depth in the forward pack come May.

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Ulster don't do turbulent off seasons but if we did...

We've also been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

Stand Props get injured frequently - a serious injury to Black or Herbst would be a major blow.

Other than Best it could be argued no Ulster front row forward would make Leinster 2nds next year.

Herbst should be good but the same could be said for Moore and Furlong.
Herring - Strauss ?
McGarth is ahead of all our LH's

That is what we are up against.
Leinster are not alone in this regard.

Dont get me wrong I don't think we will be awful next year far from it - I would still back us to make the Pro12 play offs and have a good chance of making the knock out stages of the European competion but I do think winning in Europe will be beyond us

geoff998rugby wrote:
Dont get me wrong I don't think we will be awful next year far from it - I would still back us to make the Pro12 play offs and have a good chance of making the knock out stages of the European competion but I do think winning in Europe will be beyond us

And I think if we did that it would be a reasonably successful season. Anything beyond would be a bonus. I think we can win the rabo with a bit of luck but Europe is beyond all the provinces right now. A home QF and SF and who knows though.

Aren't the European rankings gone from next year and the seeds will be based on league placing + the current champions of the existing comps? We may get a tough enough pool.

This is where the unknown comes in Geoff. I can't say how good Herbst or Murphy will be. I think black can compare well enough with most LHs. I think our days of dominating scrums in Europe was gone this year truth be told but I think if we can hold our own we will be fine.

Rodders that is true and as a consequence we will be a 4th seed - it could be brutal

The other thing that will come back to haunt us is the reality our squad is so thin in certain areas - given the attrition rate of the game we will be fielding a number of weaker sides next year.

I've only heard good things about Herbst and the fact he seems to be highly rated by Jannie du Plessis can't be bad. He can also play equally well both sides of the scrum which could be useful. I know Murphy had been a pretty destructive LH but whether or not that ability has faded shall remain to be seen. Fingers crossed lads and ladies.

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders that is true and as a consequence we will be a 4th seed - it could be brutal

The other thing that will come back to haunt us is the reality our squad is so thin in certain areas - given the attrition rate of the game we will be fielding a number of weaker sides next year.

Yes it will be really tough but in my opinion people need to appreciate were we are in our evolution and be patient with the guys coming through and the fact that we need to persevere with guys like Warwick, Gilroy at the back -Payne and Cave switching round as we build depth and juggle national interests with the club goals.

All the provinces are under tighter directives now from the IRFU and national coaches under Schmidt and yer man the new director of rugby.

We have a fantastic new stadium, top class facilities and a long term regional development strategy which will build depth and find new players. Ricky Huey worked at Natal shark and the SARU and will really shake things up and help produce more talent outside the core rugby schools.

My guess is that the short term will be tough but we won't see the rubbish we saw pre 2010.

If Pienaar didn't believe in what the club where doing I don't believe he would have stayed when he had other options. I hope anyways....

Wouldn't disagree with that but the key is getting a production line going re academy players.

We may need to go down, a bit, to go up.

Also the Anscombe, Humphreys, Payne situation I think is disquieting.
If Payne gets his way I believe Cave will off next summer - that is not good.
It also could mean Olding becoming a jack of all trades master of none - that would be criminal

Some of you guys seem a bit "glass half empty" As an Edinburgh fan I would be very happy if my team had done what Ulster have done and the future for Ulster looks OK as well

TJ wrote:Some of you guys seem a bit "glass half empty"  As an Edinburgh fan I would be very happy if my team had done what Ulster have done and the future for Ulster looks OK as well

 

geoff998rugby wrote:
Also the Anscombe, Humphreys, Payne situation I think is disquieting.
If Payne gets his way I believe Cave will off next summer - that is not good.
It also could mean Olding becoming a jack of all trades master of none - that would be criminal

We'll have to see - I'm fairly open minded about that but 4-5 players into 2 positions won't go - Cave, Marshall, Olding, Payne - even McCloskey... but then we are complaining about lack of depth in other positions...

Here I suppose what happens with Hogg could be key - have you heard anything on that Geoff?

geoff998rugby wrote:Wouldn't disagree with that but the key is getting a production line going re academy players.

We may need to go down, a bit, to go up.

Also the Anscombe, Humphreys, Payne situation I think is disquieting.
If Payne gets his way I believe Cave will off next summer - that is not good.
It also could mean Olding becoming a jack of all trades master of none - that would be criminal

That is exactly the concern I have. The fact that 4-5 players into 2 positions won't go is exactly the reason that Payne should be playing 15. If he stays at 15 we won't have to use an NIQ slot to replace him meaning we can strengthen our back row further. If he moves we have to sign another player to play 15 as well as alienating the likes of Darren Cave. It's the wrong decision. Simple as that.

As for the OP, I've added Macklin and Porter to the departures but I'm only going to update players coming in once they are officially announced by the club. That goes for both Academy players getting bumped up to full contracts and new signings.

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:
Also the Anscombe, Humphreys, Payne situation I think is disquieting.
If Payne gets his way I believe Cave will off next summer - that is not good.
It also could mean Olding becoming a jack of all trades master of none - that would be criminal

We'll have to see - I'm fairly open minded about that but 4-5 players into 2 positions won't go - Cave, Marshall, Olding, Payne - even McCloskey... but then we are complaining about lack of depth in other positions...

Here I suppose what happens with Hogg could be key - have you heard anything on that Geoff?  

I think most people are open minded but with the exception of Anscombe I get the impression the general club feeling Payne should not be show horned into 13 to accomodate his Ireland ambition. It could lead to Cave leaving and will reduce Oldings time in the centre - both bad bad decisions.

I think the general consensus, which I agree with, is - using Marshall, Cave, Olding at 12/13 with Allen and McCloskey as back up and tell Payne you are first choice 15. By playing him at 13 we are weakening out threes and need to sign a top 15 - that bonkers.

Instead of scrambling around for an IQ 7 we should tell Payne 15 or on yer bike and sign a top class 6/7.
If Hogg comes in it makes even less sense - a 'big head' and someone who will not be around for Internationals.
If Payne is 13 and Hogg 15 I would seriously wonder about dressing room harmony.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/stephen-ferris-career-may-be-over-due-to-ankle-injury-1.1802979

Irish Times claiming Ferris is done, was it not his other ankle he injured this time around?

No truth then that Cave wanted to improve his Ireland chances by playing 12 based on feedback from Schmidt last Autumn?

I have a feeling it may be Luke Marshall who may find himself out in the cold next year, not Cave. The summer tour will give some indication based on where Cave plays in the tests and who starts at 12 between him and Marshall.

I think Cave is moving to 12 to accomodate Payne, and yes improve his Ireland chances - he has little choice.
Given the choice what Cave really wants is a fair crack at the 13 shirt.
He has waited all these years, BOD retires and now he is being jerked around by Anscombe/Payne.
I repeat if he is not 13 this year he will be off and I cant say I blame him.

The madness is we will have Cave - Payne playing
when our best combination is probably Marshall/Olding - Cave
We will need to sign a 15 and get a lesser 6/7 when what we really need is a top class 6/7
and all to accomodate one players Ireland ambitions

Utter madness

I have no problem with Cave leaving if he doesn't get an Ireland chance in the coming year (I think Henshaw will get first crack at 13) and he is under pressure.

Whilst I am not wholly against Jared Payne as a centre I think it would be criminal if we didn't first look to find a spot for Olding in the centres. My ideal backline for next season (based on just my opinion no more) would be...

Pienaar
Jackson
Trimble
Marshall
Olding
Bowe
Payne

But we talk about strength of depth and then in the next breath are happy to cast aside Cave like an unwanted rag - he deserves better than that.

The really sad thing is in a few years time when Payne he no longer first choice for Ireland he will go back home.
If Henshaw proves the better 13 that could be in just 2 years
Hogg, if he signs, will be off to France if a success, or back to Scotland if he is a failure at the end of any contract.

Cave on the other hand would play for the rest of his rugby life for Ulster if given a fair crack of the whip.
That should count for something.

You dont develop strength in depth by Wee weeing off local lads who would happily play for the Province and no one else to accomodate 'blow ins' who are no better and in this instance not even that.

The silver lining is that if Anscombe goes next summer maybe Cave can be persuaded to stay? But then moving Cave to 12 to accommodate Payne at 13 will thwart the development of Olding/Marshall!!

We'll probably see Olding and Gilroy pushed into full back if Payne moves to 13. We want to see Olding at 12. I think that aside from Andrew Trimble Darren Cave has been our most consistent back over the past 2 years. He's earned the 13 jersey on merit. It makes me really angry to see him get treated like this. He's been an amazing servant to Ulster Rugby and he doesn't deserve to get jerked around.

Cave on form deserves the 13 jersey, Payne has been a revelation for us at 15 and then we have Marshall and Olding pushing each other to start at 12. If I knew that was the situation in the back line for us next season I would be relatively optimistic. But I'm yet to see Payne have anything more than an average game for us at 13 and now we have to rejig our entire back line to accommodate him?

As geoff says, its crazy. Payne should play 15 for us or if his Ireland ambitions are more important- go and play 13 for Leinster and let us keep Darren Cave. I would be sorry to lose him, but as it stands we have to replace him at 15 for next season anyway.

It's not about wanting him to go Geoff. I am merely saying that if Marshall/Olding proved to be a young invigorating centre partnership and Cave hasn't had an Ireland shot it would be understandable if he goes.

In truth I don't think he is going to get the Ireland 13 shirt. I'm obviously less sure about our centres moving forward

geoff998rugby wrote:You dont develop strength in depth by Wee weeing off local lads who would happily play for the Province and no one else to accomodate 'blow ins' who are no better and in this instance not even that.  

AMEN!

Notch wrote:The silver lining is that if Anscombe goes next summer maybe Cave can be persuaded to stay? But then moving Cave to 12 to accommodate Payne at 13 will thwart the development of Olding/Marshall!!

We'll probably see Olding and Gilroy pushed into full back if Payne moves to 13. We want to see Olding at 12. I think that aside from Andrew Trimble Darren Cave has been our most consistent back over the past 2 years. He's earned the 13 jersey on merit. It makes me really angry to see him get treated like this. He's been an amazing servant to Ulster Rugby and he doesn't deserve to get jerked around.

Cave on form deserves the 13 jersey, Payne has been a revelation for us at 15 and then we have Marshall and Olding pushing each other to start at 12. If I knew that was the situation in the back line for us next season I would be relatively optimistic. But I'm yet to see Payne have anything more than an average game for us at 13 and now we have to rejig our entire back line to accommodate him?

As geoff says, its crazy. Payne should play 15 for us or if his Ireland ambitions are more important- go and play 13 for Leinster and let us keep Darren Cave. I would be sorry to lose him, but as it stands we have to replace him at 15 for next season anyway.

  
Spot on and the more I think of it the more it makes me   

Standulstermen wrote:It's not about wanting him to go Geoff. I am merely saying that if Marshall/Olding proved to be a young invigorating centre partnership and Cave hasn't had an Ireland shot it would be understandable if he goes.

In truth I don't think he is going to get the Ireland 13 shirt. I'm obviously less sure about our centres moving forward

May not be wanting him to go but in any other industry it is effectively constructive dismissal.
I think if Marshall and Olding were to prove themselves to be a better partnership then Cave would accept it and be an able back up.

What will be unacceptable to him is being the 2nd best 13 for years in Ireland and just when the top man retires sees his provincial position snatch away from him by a player who has been an inferior player in that position when he has played.

He may not get the Ireland 13 shirt but what he does deserve is a chance to grab it and he deserves that chance in front of Payne.  

Don't disagree with any of that Geoff. I have already said I think Henshaw may get the chance before the either and he may not give it up.

I don't want Darren cave to be Ulsters 13 if we have a better partnership out there is all I am saying. At the minute I can't see how it is Payne.

What I will say is that at the top, top level I don't think Marshall/Cave is getting it done in an attacking sense

Jackson out of the summer tour now. Not a good week so far for ulster players

Apparently Ferris is pondering his career direction at the moment

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27501387

What do Ulster fans make of this? I saw his comeback game in March and it was so refreshing to see him back playing. It's just a shame it didn't last long.

I think his retirement will be announced sooner rather than later. Can't see him lining out in white or green again

It's got a sad kind of sense of inevitability about it unfortunately. The amount of time he's spent injured an unavailable in the last two years kind of withered any optimism I had that he could get back to where he was...

If Ferris does have to retire I'm just glad that he got that amazing reception at Ravenhill when we played the Scarlets- it was good that the crowd got to pay tribute to him.

It does seem to have been coming for a while, but you've got to admire his resilience. It's such a shame if he is forced to retire now. In a game where players are becoming increasingly physical, he still stood out- which takes some doing.

I guess also it's a shame that his contract with the Japanese club didn't work out. At least that would have topped up his pension nicely for an early retirement.

I'm not saying I'm in favour of Payne at 13, but I assume those backing Cave to stay at 13 also believe he should be in the green 13 shirt ahead of Payne too? Or do you reckon Henshaw merits the shirt ahead of Cave?

We talked earlier about the academy functioning. The only place it has functioned well in recent years is the production of Marshall, Olding and McCloskey - and yet it looks like this is the one area we are going to thwart the progress by unecessarily repositioning another player.

Its idiotic!

I really hope we get a top quality backrow and a versatile player like Ludik in the backs. In fact, I think its necessary for our progression.

clivemcl wrote:I really hope we get a top quality backrow and a versatile player like Ludik in the backs. In fact, I think its necessary for our progression.

In terms of NIQ only 1 will be coming which is why Payne staying at 15 is better for Ulster as it would be an opportunity to sign a top 6/7

Standulstermen wrote: What I will say is that at the top, top level I don't think Marshall/Cave is getting it done in an attacking sense

2 things -

1 - Blame the head coach, as opposed to the backs coach, who regards Marshall as a bish-bosh merchant
2 - Maybe Cave isn't doing it but you dont solve a problem by bringing in a inferior player, in that position, as a replacement

I wouldn't really suggest Payne is an inferior player. I haven't seen enough to say he is better but that's not to say he isn't. What I would say is that it makes no sense from a squad point of view unless Payne is unreal in the position (which I don't believe)

Geoff I reiterate on the Doak thing, he allegedly went through the same thing with McLaughlin. I find it hard to believe he would do it again especially when it reflects badly on him. That's not to say I'm giving Anscombe a free pass either.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Cave on the other hand would play for the rest of his rugby life for Ulster if given a fair crack of the whip.
That should count for something. 

Aw come on Geoff he's had 5-6 seasons of wearing the 13 jersey. You can't say he hasn't had a fair run. Now there is a challenger for the jersey he needs to raise his game. He has no divine right to the 13 jersey.

Caves fitness and commitment to training haven't always been first class so maybe this will help him up his game.

Standulstermen wrote:I wouldn't really suggest Payne is an inferior player. .

Never said he was an inferior player but said he was an inferior player in a position (13)
On what we have seen this year that is clearly the case

geoff998rugby wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I wouldn't really suggest Payne is an inferior player. .

Never said he was an inferior player but said he was an inferior player in a position (13)
On what we have seen this year that is clearly the case

So you are judging Payne on a couple of appearances vs Cave playing there most of the season? Hardly a fair comparison Geoff.

Don't disagree with any of that Geoff. That's not to say we have seen a lot. As I mention I think Paynes strength is at 15 but to my mind we need to be seeing Olding and Marshall at centre and throwing Payne in there and even potentially using both Payne and cave in the centre is a waste of resources

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:
Cave on the other hand would play for the rest of his rugby life for Ulster if given a fair crack of the whip.
That should count for something. 

Aw come on Geoff he's had 5-6 seasons of wearing the 13 jersey. You can't say he hasn't had a fair run. Now there is a challenger for the jersey he needs to raise his game. He has no divine right to the 13 jersey.

Caves fitness and commitment to training haven't always been first class so maybe this will help him up his game.

He has not had a fair crack at the Ireland shirt.
Now the reasons are because we have had one of the greats of the game there for over a decade but in the latter half of that period he has been the next best in Ireland.
Ireland have tried others there - Earls, Fitzpgerald who, as 13's, have not played to the same level as Cave.

Never said he has a divine right to the 13 shirt at Ulster but what he does have a right to expect is to be droped on merit not droped
because another of the squad throws his toys out the pram, especially when he has not been as good as the incumbant.

We want to have a squad with strength in depth then lets show to loyalty to the better player in each position and lets show some loyalty to a player who won't be off when a contract elsewhere comes along i.e blow ins. (Pienaer is an exception in this regard and as such atypical)

Loyalty is a two way street.

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I wouldn't really suggest Payne is an inferior player. .

Never said he was an inferior player but said he was an inferior player in a position (13)
On what we have seen this year that is clearly the case

So you are judging Payne on a couple of appearances vs Cave playing there most of the season? Hardly a fair comparison Geoff.

So therefore Cave should remain the incumbant until Payne puts in performances which suggests otherwise.
Going into next year Cave should be first choice and Payne plays a few games there to see how it goes.

What should not be occurring is Payne start the season as first choice - call me old fashioned but I believe you play your best team in key matches until performances dictate otherwise.

Against Leinster - 12 Cave, 13 Payne, 15 Gilroy was an act of stupidity.

Is there anything to suggest toys have been thrown out of the pram by Payne? I mean more than expressing a preference for 13?

Cave was overlooked for more reasons than BOD holding tightly to the 13 shirt. As has been said others were given a crack at it whilst Cave was overlooked/underrated. Lets face it, Kidney would never have done anything to upset his love child Earls and his ambitions for the 13 shirt and Fitz just bombed when tried there. Why Cave wasn't tried out? Perhaps being a Nordie his face didn't fit, not unlike Andy Trimble. Look what happened with Trimbs when he got a fair crack in his preferred position.

The other thing is Payne was one of if not THE outstanding 13 in super rugby in his final season there and was playing there regularly. His style of play fitted neatly into the Blues formula and he was outstanding. Perhaps he's not fitting as neatly into the Ulster formula and therefore not shining anywhere near as brightly.

Third point, "Against Leinster - 12 Cave, 13 Payne, 15 Gilroy was an act of stupidity. .", could't agree more, it was not the time to be experiementing with the formula when we already knew what worked best.

Cave is only the incumbent because Bowe got injured early in the season. The plan was always to start Payne in the HEC games with a back 3 of Trimble, Gilroy and Bowe. Anscombe is not a big fan of Cave and neither was McLaughlin.

Standulstermen wrote:Is there anything to suggest toys have been thrown out of the pram by Payne? I mean more than expressing a preference for 13?

toys out the pram is a bit strong but a clear indication that -
'I want to play 13 to enhance my Ireland prospects and if I dont I wont take it well' is fair.

I have no problem with him wanting to play somewhere but he needs to prove himself to be the best in that position first.
He has no god given right to step in and take it without showing he is better than the alternatives - he hasn't yet.

rodders wrote:Cave is only the incumbent because Bowe got injured early in the season. The plan was always to start Payne in the HEC games with a back 3 of Trimble, Gilroy and Bowe. Anscombe is not a big fan of Cave and neither was McLaughlin.

Sorry but that is utter garbage - look at the first two HC games of this year as evidence.
The plan this year was always 15 Payne, 13 Cave with Payne getting the odd game at 13 which until the last couple of weeks is what happened

Sorry Geoff but it wasn't.

Heading into the season the first choice side pencilled in had Payne at 13 and Gilroy at 15. This never got the sustained run planned because of injury.

rodders wrote:Cave is only the incumbent because Bowe got injured early in the season. The plan was always to start Payne in the HEC games with a back 3 of Trimble, Gilroy and Bowe. Anscombe is not a big fan of Cave and neither was McLaughlin.

My thinking at the time was that the above was plan B, should we struggle against teams with plan A. I was excited at the prospect, and really looking forward to see how Payne would do in center. Thus far, Payne has been ok, but not as good as Cave/Marshall with Payne at fullback. It's good to try out different combinations when forced, or against some of the weaker teams, but not in a knock out game with a weakened pack, and an obviously unfit Pienaar.

I see this Hogg to Ulster thing has picked up pace again. A Tweet from Scottish Daily Mail’s rugby correspondent Rob Robertson:

Rob Robertson @SDM_Robertson
Follow
Ulster have offered to double Stuart Hogg's salary taking him up to a reputed £180,000 a year. Can SRU match that or come close? Hope so.

I think Munkian has it correct that was plan B not plan A

Anyways I think the club is in a good place - the big challenges come from external sources i.e. the French and English clubs, not internal ones, where I think we are getting things more right than wrong.

No player is bigger than the club and is expendable - that includes Payne, Cave or whoever - they'll play where they are needed and that's where the coaches ask them.

I don't like this criticism and back biting against the coaches - its not healthy for the club and players and doesn't reflect well on Ulster rugby. Things are going to socceresque for my liking.

Munchkin wrote:

rodders wrote:Cave is only the incumbent because Bowe got injured early in the season. The plan was always to start Payne in the HEC games with a back 3 of Trimble, Gilroy and Bowe. Anscombe is not a big fan of Cave and neither was McLaughlin.

I see this Hogg to Ulster thing has picked up pace again. A Tweet from Scottish Daily Mail’s rugby correspondent Rob Robertson:

Rob Robertson @SDM_Robertson
Follow
Ulster have offered to double Stuart Hogg's salary taking him up to a reputed £180,000 a year. Can SRU match that or come close? Hope so.

Seems like every Ulster fan on these boards hopes so too.

Who knows GC? If Payne is our 15 we don't need Hogg. If Payne is our 13 we may well do

Standulstermen wrote:Who knows GC? If Payne is our 15 we don't need Hogg. If Payne is our 13 we may well do

If we need a 15 I'd much prefer Gareth Anscombe over Hogg, especially if he's wanting to come north to play for Wales

I have to admit, I was a big fan of Hogg. It would be hard not to be in some way happy to have a player of that calibre on board.

But if its instead of a top quality NIQ backrower - then its not a good move for the squad.

Its about priorities. We need a good ball carrying backrow more than we need to accommodate a rejig in our already crowded backs department.