Ulster 2014/2015

First topic message reminder :

Details of pre-season games to confirmed- we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. On the transfer front, it seems like our business for the year is concluded. Second row looks strong and our back line is stronger than ever, but there are concerns about our depth in the front row and back row of the pack. A lot depends on Wiehahn Herbst turning out to be a hit and Chris Henry staying fit- our decision to spend a valuable NIQ spot on Louis Ludik and Sean Doyles departure leaves us exposed at open side with two new, extremely untested players in Reidy and Butterworth vying to be Henrys understudy. Rob Herring is another player who needs to avoid injury at all costs. Niall Annett has been allowed to leave along with Brady in recent seasons and the 3rd choice hooker is not obvious. With seedings in Europe determined by league performance, Ulster may very well rue their lack of depth in the forward pack come May.

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Ulster don't do turbulent off seasons but if we did...

We've also been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Who knows GC? If Payne is our 15 we don't need Hogg. If Payne is our 13 we may well do

If we need a 15 I'd much prefer Gareth Anscombe over Hogg, especially if he's wanting to come north to play for Wales

I thought that Anscombe's escape clause from this Auckland contract only let him move to a Welsh team?

Just to confuse everyone a bit more, Hogg has played 13 a number of times and is actually quite good there (3 tries against Munster last season in that position).

I'll just  

Do we need a top quality NIQ backrower or do we need a good quality backup for Henry

I dont want Hogg (everything I've heard from Glasgow and Ulster is he is a bit of a know it all) - I want us using our remaining NIQ slot on a backrower not a 15.

That is a far more urgent need - as stated above we are going into a season with 4/5 backrower of the required standard - that is insane.

When Henderson and Henry are away we will have Diack, Wilson, Williams and ANOther who if IQ will not be top draw.

rodders wrote:  Anyways I think the club is in a good place - the big challenges come from external sources i.e. the French and English clubs, not internal ones, where I think we are getting things more right than wrong.

I agree we are doing far more right than we are doing wrong. The ground, the finances, revamping the academy and below, reaching out to the wider Ulster community and capturing (mostly) good value NIQ players. All good stuff.
However one or two things to, potentially, come back to bite us.
A coach who was looking to leave, who knows he wont be here the year after next and 1, maybe 2 players who, potentially could cause dressing room disharmony. We have just said goodbye to a player for whom that was true lets not make the same mistake.

rodders wrote: No player is bigger than the club and is expendable - that includes Payne, Cave or whoever - they'll play where they are needed and that's where the coaches ask them.

Agreed - but the coach must select on performance

rodders wrote: I don't like this criticism and back biting against the coaches - its not healthy for the club and players and doesn't reflect well on Ulster rugby. Things are going to socceresque for my liking.  

To be honest the unprofessional  comments have come from the coach himself, rather than being direct at the coach. Thats not good

George Carlin wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

rodders wrote:Cave is only the incumbent because Bowe got injured early in the season. The plan was always to start Payne in the HEC games with a back 3 of Trimble, Gilroy and Bowe. Anscombe is not a big fan of Cave and neither was McLaughlin.

I see this Hogg to Ulster thing has picked up pace again. A Tweet from Scottish Daily Mail’s rugby correspondent Rob Robertson:

Rob Robertson @SDM_Robertson
Follow
Ulster have offered to double Stuart Hogg's salary taking him up to a reputed £180,000 a year. Can SRU match that or come close? Hope so.

Seems like every Ulster fan on these boards hopes so too.

I have serious reservations about a) using an NIQ slot on a fullback and b) the need created to bringing here coming from moving Payne away from his best position

We're the suckers here if we pay big money for a player who'll be away on Scotland duty a lot...

Standulstermen wrote:Do we need a top quality NIQ backrower or do we need a good quality backup for Henry

Given we currently only have 4 backrowers of the required stand we need a top quality backrower.

I'll go further backrowers tend to get injured more than most and you really need 6 or 7 of them not 4 or 5.
Leinster have 7 against our 4 - thats the difference

geoff998rugby wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Do we need a top quality NIQ backrower or do we need a good quality backup for Henry

Given we currently only have 4 backrowers of the required stand we need a top quality backrower.

I'll go further backrowers tend to get injured more than most and you really need 6 or 7 of them not 4 or 5.
Leinster have 7 against our 4 - thats the difference

Absolutely, I'd take a decent 6 & 7 for what we'd be paying Hogg. I can see why this new Hogg rumour has taken off but it is really a no brainer that we vitally need to flesh out our forwards section of the squad. If Leinster have so many perhaps we could have a couple and they can take Hoggy

In fairness 180k is a bit of a snip in the current climate....

George Carlin wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

rodders wrote:Cave is only the incumbent because Bowe got injured early in the season. The plan was always to start Payne in the HEC games with a back 3 of Trimble, Gilroy and Bowe. Anscombe is not a big fan of Cave and neither was McLaughlin.

I see this Hogg to Ulster thing has picked up pace again. A Tweet from Scottish Daily Mail’s rugby correspondent Rob Robertson:

Rob Robertson @SDM_Robertson
Follow
Ulster have offered to double Stuart Hogg's salary taking him up to a reputed £180,000 a year. Can SRU match that or come close? Hope so.

Seems like every Ulster fan on these boards hopes so too.

Hogg is a great player, but then we already have Payne at fullback, and so unless Payne went to center he would be surplus to requirements in that position, barring injury, or ((((shudder)))) Payne moving to Leinster. I don't believe Hogg would be happy as a utility back.
So if Hogg was signed it would mean one of two things; Payne moving to center, or Payne moving out of Ulster altogether, and considering Hogg wouldn't be available during internationals you can maybe understand why some of us aren't to happy at the prospect.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Do we need a top quality NIQ backrower or do we need a good quality backup for Henry

Given we currently only have 4 backrowers of the required stand we need a top quality backrower.

I'll go further backrowers tend to get injured more than most and you really need 6 or 7 of them not 4 or 5.
Leinster have 7 against our 4 - thats the difference

Maybe Olding can play openside next year? .....   

If Payne goes to 13 he'll be asked to play everywhere else and go backwards as a result    

All joking aside, if Ferris really is crocked then you need another blindside quite badly.

I have often thought that Rob Harley would be perfect for you guys. That, or a big hard saffer like Cornel du Preez at Edinburgh.

We also need an openside quite badly- Henry is the only one left at the club!

Which is why people are quite angry at using our last NIQ spot to sign a 15 so we can accommodate the wishes of one player... instead of just telling him he needs to play 15.

Couldn't you poach young Tommy O'Donnell over from Limerick?

I wish- I doubt it.

Who could we possibly get thats of that high a standard and will move in the season before a RWC?

combining all the different things being said - it sounds a lot like we talk to a lot of players and then put them on hold because

a) waiting to see if so and so recovers from injury or retires
b) waiting to see if we can get an IQ in another position or we have to use the NIQ spot elsewhere

I just hope we don't get egg on our face and end up with none of the players we've been talking too because we kept them on the line too long.

When is the latest date we have heard of a signing in recent years? Is it still too early to be getting concerned?

Geoff says a backrower is sorted - but what would be the hold up in announcements at this time of year??

I didn't say a backrow is sorted I said we are 100% certain to sign a backrower - not the same thing.

Trouble is with Hogg signing he has to be IQ which is the big concern.
Can't help wondering if a player based in one of the other Provinces is being talked to.
In truth we really need a 6 and a 7 - we are very very short in the backrow.

The Hogg thing seems to be gaining serious traction and in truth money being mentioned means he is, at least, cheap.
Can't believe the Glasgow salary - there are squad players here on more than his Glasgow salary.

Never boring at Ulster is it  

If the lad from the blues is sorted then I think it would be positive. At least he has super rugby experience. Remember Doyle had none and we would have kept him if possible.

Hoggs wages are dirt cheap if the numbers being reported are true.

geoff998rugby wrote:I didn't say a backrow is sorted I said we are 100% certain to sign a backrower - not the same thing.

Trouble is with Hogg signing he has to be IQ which is the big concern.
Can't help wondering if a player based in one of the other Provinces is being talked to.
In truth we really need a 6 and a 7 - we are very very short in the backrow.

The Hogg thing seems to be gaining serious traction and in truth money being mentioned means he is, at least, cheap.
Can't believe the Glasgow salary - there are squad players here on more than his Glasgow salary.

Never boring at Ulster is it  

Geoff, even you are considering its probable now? I have no issue in signing someone of Hoggs ability in general - but I have issue with why there is a need for it.

Still though, personal feeling for Cave/Marshall aside, theres no denying that

9) Pienaar
10) Jackson
11) Trimble
12) Cave/Marshall
13) Payne
14) Bowe
15) Hogg

with a bench of Marshall, iHumph, Olding, Gilroy

Is pretty damn tasty.


Also, for the haters of Payne at 13 - I still belive if he got a run of games there, he would get into the groove and be VERY good there, like he was for Blues.


Backrow though - this is seriously worrying if Hogg is taking up the NIQ spot.


I know that the IRFU has relaxed its stance on a few issues - is it possible they have stopped being strict about NIQ numbers, or gave Ulster leeway - but it just never hit the headlines?

If we could (for once) tempt a few players north - that would be the ideal. And it would make sense for the fringe players who havn't much chance at Munster/Leinster.

As mentioned elsewhere Michael Noone released by Leicester - would be a decent backrow cover

If we ended up with O'Connor and Noone it would be ok - not great but ok

Not sure aboute Noone, sounds like nobody Get it? Eh?......I'll get my coat

Now that Rory McIlroy will have a bit of spare cash with his refund from the big bash he had planned perhaps we could get him to invest that in a player. I mean a million or two would get us anyone we wanted

Notch wrote:
Which is why people are quite angry at using our last NIQ spot

Given we already have an NIE back rower on the books in Williams signing another wouldn't be an option.

If Hogg is only on 90k at Glasgow no wonder he is offski.

#BestBackrow could probably be tempted back for some big bucks ....   

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:
Which is why people are quite angry at using our last NIQ spot

Given we already have an NIE back rower on the books in Williams signing another wouldn't be an option.

That is not true we would be allowed another NIQ backrower
The rule now is their are no rules.
It is based on case by case negotiation.

In fact I'd go further Ireland would be happier if we signed a NIQ backrower than a NIQ 15 where Ireland have a shortage.
The reason I am certain of this is we were in advanced negotiation with Keegan Daniels - those negotiations were sanctioned by Dublin

geoff998rugby wrote:
The reason I am certain of this is we were in advanced negotiation with Keegan Daniels - those negotiations were sanctioned by Dublin

Could be that Williams would have been shown the door if that came off?

Official policy is no more than one NIE per position prop, lock, back row, Half back, outside backs - no? If you look at the other 2 provinces pretty sure there are no exemptions to this currently?

Ulster should talk to Sean Dougall - seems to be very pally with a lot of the Ulster guys from his time in the Ulster academy and there is a lot of competition in the Munster backrow.

Holy sh!te. I just looked this up. Is it really correct that only one non-Irish qualified player is allowed to play across the 15 positions for Ulster, Leinster and Munster? Seems very harsh. How does that work with loose forwards who can play more than one position?

Sorry to come late to the party but I would think (hope) that I wasn't the only person on these boards not to know this.

That's not a bad shout Sin.

George Carlin wrote:Holy sh!te. I just looked this up. Is it really correct that only one non-Irish qualified player is allowed to play across the 15 positions for Ulster, Leinster and Munster? Seems very harsh. How does that work with loose forwards who can play more than one position?

Nah it was announced as official policy but they never enforced it. Depending on who you speak to it was either watered down or abandoned,

I was still under the impression that the IRFU are tightening up on NIEs hence the push for projects or Irish qualified players, They've drastically cut funding for overseas player for Munster, Ulster and Leinster...definitely for Ulster * and I heard that directly from someone employed by the branch.

* actually the statement was that there will be no more big name SH signings after the current crop leave, that the aim is to replace them with home grown players - I'm not sure if that being driven by Humph, the IRFU or both.

This whole business of limiting players playing in certain positions for each provinces was thrown out thanks to a revolt by the Provinces.

I repeat the only rule is there are no rules.

Williams was going nowhere he has a contract for next year so Daniels would have been a second backrower.
If Dougall wanted to come here we would welcome him with open arms - would Munster release him though?

rodders wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Holy sh!te. I just looked this up. Is it really correct that only one non-Irish qualified player is allowed to play across the 15 positions for Ulster, Leinster and Munster? Seems very harsh. How does that work with loose forwards who can play more than one position?

Nah it was announced as official policy but they never enforced it. Depending on who you speak to it was either watered down or abandoned,

I was still under the impression that the IRFU are tightening up on NIEs hence the push for projects or Irish qualified players, They've drastically cut funding for overseas player for Munster, Ulster and Leinster...definitely for Ulster and I heard that directly from someone employed by the branch.

There is tightening but it is not by position it is financially, as you mentioned, and a commitment to go down form 5 to 4 by the three senior provinces eventually.

No time scale so it sounds like an aspiration rather than a hard and fast commitment.
To make this feasible we need players to move around the three senior provinces on a regualr basis - a new guy was brought in in Dublin and had this as part of his remit.

The money is significant and would go some way to explain Hogg's attraction - he's cheap

Sin é wrote:Ulster should talk to Sean Dougall - seems to be very pally with a lot of the Ulster guys from his time in the Ulster academy and there is a lot of competition in the Munster backrow.

I'd been thinking that myself Sin but would he be allowed to escape the Munsty clutches?

geoff998rugby wrote:This whole business of limiting players playing in certain positions for each provinces was thrown out thanks to a revolt by the Provinces.

I repeat the only rule is there are no rules.

Williams was going nowhere he has a contract for next year so Daniels would have been a second backrower.
If Dougall wanted to come here we would welcome him with open arms - would Munster release him though?

Dougall is a mad lunatic of a player - really good guy, very committed and a Penney favourite. Not sure what Foley thinks of him though. He is a bit underpowered for a Munster backrow alongside POM & Coughlan (TOD would be preferred).That could change though if Stander gets ahead of Coughlan and of course Dougall is still very young and has loads of time to develop physically.

Answer to whether Munster would release him - I don't know how highly Foley rates him. Penney wouldn't have released him though.

geoff998rugby wrote:No time scale so it sounds like an aspiration rather than a hard and fast commitment.

No its a hard and fast commitment because the branch have redirected a significant amount of money into building up regional development squads, which sit below the academy, and this has been ramped up from this season with an increase in full time staff - who've been designated to find players, particularly forwards because there will be no, or much less, big name signings. The focus is on IE players because the budget is down and rules are tightened.

Understand but as far as I am aware Provinces have yet to drop from 5 to 4 players and not sure if a date has been set when they will.

For Ulster the only contract up next summer is Williams

der Merwe, Herbst, Pienaer and if he signs Hogg will all be contracted for 2015-16 and, in some cases, beyond.

Do we have a project on the books next year?

What's the deal with Faloon? Is he settled in Connacht?

Isn't Herbst the project?  

I think 8 is a problem too Geoff. Nick Williams form and consistency really dropped of this year and Wilson is on the slide - put in a few decent shifts but isn't much of a carrier and is pretty slow - especially alongside Henry.

If Hendo is lock then Williams has to start for his carrying but his attitude this year hasn't been right - even when he played at the end of the season he lacked discipline.

For me I think Hendo should be 6 -Wilson 8 and Diack on the bench. The balance isn't great no matter what way you spin things.

Would not agree Wilson was on the slide - one of our best players last year.
All about balance with Wilson and Henry we do need a big ball carrier and admirable though Diack is he is not the answer.
Probably my biggest single worry for next year along with the fact a Herbst injury would be a crises.
Lutton is an admirable back up but not for those really big games
I agree re Hendo at 6 sadly it ain't going to happen Ireland need him in the second row.

Faloon has a contract with Connacht for next year
Herbst is a project - although techically the term has been droped.
I agree re Williams - an Anscombe signing. He will not be here in 2015/16

geoff998rugby wrote:Would not agree Wilson was on the slide - one of our best players last year.

No don't get me wrong he was one of our best players and did a job when he played but he struggles with breaking the gain line and is slow to the ruck. He also is up and down with injuries. At 33 this isn't likely to improve.

I think we are lacking a top class, European level no8, especially one who can carry.

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Would not agree Wilson was on the slide - one of our best players last year.

No don't get me wrong he was one of our best players and did a job when he played but he struggles with breaking the gain line and is slow to the ruck. He also is up and down with injuries. At 33 this isn't likely to improve.

I think we are lacking a top class, European level no8, especially one who can carry.  

If Williams can regain the form of before this season, then he is definitely needed. But he seemed to be neutralised in his ball - carrying this year. is he not as up for it, not as strong, or are opposition defences just ready for him more so?

Either way, I'd still have him over Wilson for physicality, and I'd like him to regain form and extend his contract if he does.

Unless of course we sign another backrower with huge ball carrying ability.

If he can Clive but to honest I've lost a lot of faith in him. Injuries played a part but his attitude was far from first class on and off the pitch.

Between him and Afoa there's been a few guys taking the p*ss this year which is a step back from the discipline and work ethic that we've had in recent seasons.

Annscombe will be gone in a year and Williams will be gone with him.

Personally I think teams have sussed him out and, sadly, he is not the most dedicated of trainers

John Andress has just signed for Edinburgh. Any reason why he isn't being brought back to Ulster as a squad player? Maybe he's just one of the traitors who can't wait to depart our beloved wee land... (beloved as long as you can ignore crazy outspoken pastors).

I think the last few posts indicate overthinking on some peoples part. Firstly I think big Nick has two years left. Summer of 2016 his contract is up to and I would agree he wasn't as effective due to injury, going AWOL or other family stuff. I think he was very good in the big games mind you, thinking specifically of Leicester away and Saracens here .

Wilson had a superb season. He isn't the biggest ball carrier (in truth it wasn't his first strength) but his all round game is so solid it makes up for it. He isn't a bad carrier either. Let's not forget the Diack, Henry and Wilson Backrow was enough to out away Montpellier over there with no Afoa or Henderson in the pack either. It can work but I'm not against having a bigger carrier.

I will slap whoever suggests shifting Henderson. Leave him be. He has put in consistent top class performances in the 2nd row since the Sarries game culminating in the two Leinster games were he outshone his international counterparts. Leave him be!

I think we are being far too negative about our current crop of players. We need a few signings to go right for us (particularly front row) and to augment the Backrow stocks of course but we have a competitive HEC squad and if we keep Ravenhill a fortress it bodes well.

George Carlin wrote:Holy sh!te. I just looked this up. Is it really correct that only one non-Irish qualified player is allowed to play across the 15 positions for Ulster, Leinster and Munster? Seems very harsh. How does that work with loose forwards who can play more than one position?

Sorry to come late to the party but I would think (hope) that I wasn't the only person on these boards not to know this.

Moved to Irish provinces thread

Definately agree re: Hendo. He has found his best position, not because of the IRFU but because he looks to be a top class lock (and to think he's still got some growing and filling out to come). He's another freakish talent and we don't want him moved around too much. Speaking of freakish talents I can't wait to see Olding back in harness again next season, he's set to be one of our greats, a real Ulster, Irish and Lions treasure IMO and I've always wanted to see what he and Payne could do in a centre partnership, maybe he's just the kind of player Payne needs inside him (ooooh matron) to bring out his best at 13.

rodders wrote:If he can Clive but to honest I've lost a lot of faith in him. Injuries played a part but his attitude was far from first class on and off the pitch.

Between him and Afoa there's been a few guys taking the p*ss this year which is a step back from the discipline and work ethic that we've had in recent seasons.

Why has it been the Kiwis who cause trouble and the South Africans who give it everything over the past few years? You couldn't look for better examples than Muller, Pienaar, Terblanche, Wannenburg... even Diack and Herring. Back in the days of Andy Ward and Paul Steinmetz we had some NZ players who would run into brick walls for the shirt, true, but lately we've been stung.

Standulstermen wrote:
I will slap whoever suggests shifting Henderson.

OK sorry stick him back at lock! ...