Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June

First topic message reminder :

Argentina v Scotland  
20 June 2014, KO: 16:10 ART (20:10 BST)
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba
 
Live on Sky Sports 3
 
Referee: John Lacey (Ire)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (Fra), Lourens van der Merwe (SA)
TMO: Deon van Blommenstein (SA)
 
A. Teams:
 
I. Argentina

1- Bruno Postiglioni (La Plata)
2- Julián Montoya (Newman)
3- Matías Díaz (Highlanders)
4- Manuel Carizza (Stormers)
5- Matías Alemanno (Tablada)
6- Rodrigo Báez (Liceo)
7- Javier Ortega Desio (Parana)
8- Tomás De la Vega (CUBA)

9- Tomás Cubelli (capitán) (Belgrano)
10- Nicolás Sánchez (Bordeaux Begles)
11- Manuel Montero (Pucurá)
12- Santiago González Iglesias (Alumni)
13- Matías Orlando (Huirapuca)
14- Santiago Cordero (Regatas)
15- Lucas González Amorosino (Oyonnax)

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez (Uni Tucumán)
17- Lucas Noguera Paz (Lince RC)
18- Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro (NG Dragons)
19- Tomás Lavanini (La Plata)
20- Antonio Ahualli de Chazal (Uni Tucumán)
21- Martín Landajo (C.A.S.I.)
22- Matías Moroni (CUBA)
23- Joaquín Tuculet (Bordeaux Begles)

II. Scotland

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps, 5 tries, 1 penalty, 28 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Nick De Luca (Biarritz) 41 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
 
10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 13 caps, 1 try, 3 conversions, 1 penalty, 1 drop-goal, 17 points
9 Grayson Hart (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap
 
1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 34 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 75 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Geoff Cross (London Irish) 30 caps, 1 try, 5 points
4 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
5 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 6 caps, 1 try, 5 points CAPTAIN
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish) 2 caps
8 Kieran Low (London Irish) 3 caps
 
16 Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
18 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps
20 Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Tom Heathcote (Edinburgh Rugby) 3 caps
23 Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap
 
B. Numbers - head to head:
 
13 Played 13
9 Won 4
4 Lost 9
247 Points 218
 
C. Results
 
25 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
13 – 12 to Argentina
2011 Rugby World Cup
 
19 June 2010
Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata
9 – 13 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina
 
12 June 2010
Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán
16 – 24 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina
 
28 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 9 to Argentina
 
2009 Autumn International
14 June 2008
Vélez Sársfield, Buenos Aires
14 – 26 to Scotland
 
2008 Scottish tour of Argentina
7 June 2008
Gigante de Arroyito, Rosario
21 – 15 to Argentina
 
7 October 2007
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
19 – 13 to Argentina
2007 Rugby World Cup
 
12 November 2005
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
19 – 23 to Argentina
2005 Autumn International
 
18 November 2001
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
16 – 25 to Argentina
 
21 August 1999
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
22 – 31 to Argentina
 
11 June 1994
Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires
19 – 17 to Argentina
 
4 June 1994
Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires
16 – 15 to Argentina
 
10 November 1990
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
49 – 3 to Scotland

There's Ollie Atkins too, who I'd be less concerned about against SA, but again he's not long back from his holidays and has just started pre-season.

The more I think about it, the more a recall for Nathan Hines seems like a ridiculously good idea.

nickj wrote:How about Tyrone Holmes? I thought he was qualified already? I think Cowan and Low have also gone on as back row cover for the Argentina game. I wonder whether we will ask the Exiles for special dispensation? Will Rennie be covered by the International Window rules too? As a last resort, could a couple of the Under 20's be flown over?  

Yes, I'd forgotten about Holmes, he seems the obvious call up if required.

That's a great call Bru. Hines vs Matfield has a better ring to it, than Gilchrist vs Matfield.

IanBru wrote:The more I think about it, the more a recall for Nathan Hines seems like a ridiculously good idea.

Careful now. We have cover at lock but not much in the back row. You see where I'm going with this......

I'm sure I heard that Cross was staying on

EWT Spoons wrote:I'm sure I heard that Cross was staying on

Was that not just for the Argentina game?

nickj wrote:How about Tyrone Holmes? I thought he was qualified already? I think Cowan and Low have also gone on as back row cover for the Argentina game. I wonder whether we will ask the Exiles for special dispensation? Will Rennie be covered by the International Window rules too? As a last resort, could a couple of the Under 20's be flown over?  

Holmes is qualified.

Maybe they just can't find anyone to ask him. It was probably hard enough for whoever it was who broke the news he wasn't needed.

Can imagine at Scotstoun the meeting going along the lines of. Can all the Scottish qualified players in the squad please step forward to collect your tour instructions......Holmes, not so quick.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

IanBru wrote:The more I think about it, the more a recall for Nathan Hines seems like a ridiculously good idea.

Careful now. We have cover at lock but not much in the back row. You see where I'm going with this......

No FES, don't even think it.

Look at my face, I'm deadly serious.

It is very difficult to read this as anything other than an eminently forseeable SRU omnishambles.

Holmes got his first cap for Scotland A this summer and is eligible. I also really rate him, actually. He won't ever be Francois Louw but he's a consummate pro and won't let anyone down, to say nothing of him surely wanting a crack at his follow countrymen.

Grant Shiells is the only quality young prop with recent game time. I see he's just been poached by Bath, actually.

What is true is that we need contingency plans now. We cannot just blindly hope nobody gets crocked. Not fair on the players.

I think we will just about be alright in the backs. Murchie, Hogg and Fife have all played in the centre from time to time.

The forwards, front row in particular is a lot more worrying. Geoff Cross has gone to Argentina. He was always in the squad for that part of the tour, perhaps it means his contract with LI will not start till after he gets back. Cowan and Low will be heading back though. If we do need another TH then I can't think of anyone other than Euan Murray.

Surely Cross must be staying on, we have not lost any props yet, so they must have thought this through. I don't think they would be allowed to start an international game without 2 props on the bench.

In the back row I would think they will play Cowan at Open side against Argentina and save Fusaro for the Boks and God help him!

George Carlin wrote:It is very difficult to read this as anything other than an eminently forseeable SRU omnishambles.

Holmes got his first cap for Scotland A this summer and is eligible. I also really rate him, actually. He won't ever be Francois Louw but he's a consummate pro and won't let anyone down, to say nothing of him surely wanting a crack at his follow countrymen.

Grant Shiells is the only quality young prop with recent game time. I see he's just been poached by Bath, actually.

What is true is that we need contingency plans now. We cannot just blindly hope nobody gets crocked. Not fair on the players.

If Sheils has just gone to Bath, which is a good move for him, then he won't be available for the SA game. The English Premiership won't make any exceptions, they really came down on Northampton when they let George North play out of window just to make an example of them!

BigGee wrote:

George Carlin wrote:It is very difficult to read this as anything other than an eminently forseeable SRU omnishambles.

Holmes got his first cap for Scotland A this summer and is eligible. I also really rate him, actually. He won't ever be Francois Louw but he's a consummate pro and won't let anyone down, to say nothing of him surely wanting a crack at his follow countrymen.

Grant Shiells is the only quality young prop with recent game time. I see he's just been poached by Bath, actually.

What is true is that we need contingency plans now. We cannot just blindly hope nobody gets crocked. Not fair on the players.

If Sheils has just gone to Bath, which is a good move for him, then he won't be available for the SA game. The English Premiership won't make any exceptions, they really came down on Northampton when they let George North play out of window just to make an example of them!

Gee - won't Shiells fall into that exception whereby he hasn't actually started with Bath yet, and so isn't bound by the Jeff club strictures?

George Carlin wrote:

BigGee wrote:

George Carlin wrote:It is very difficult to read this as anything other than an eminently forseeable SRU omnishambles.

Holmes got his first cap for Scotland A this summer and is eligible. I also really rate him, actually. He won't ever be Francois Louw but he's a consummate pro and won't let anyone down, to say nothing of him surely wanting a crack at his follow countrymen.

Grant Shiells is the only quality young prop with recent game time. I see he's just been poached by Bath, actually.

What is true is that we need contingency plans now. We cannot just blindly hope nobody gets crocked. Not fair on the players.

If Sheils has just gone to Bath, which is a good move for him, then he won't be available for the SA game. The English Premiership won't make any exceptions, they really came down on Northampton when they let George North play out of window just to make an example of them!

Gee - won't Shiells fall into that exception whereby he hasn't actually started with Bath yet, and so isn't bound by the Jeff club strictures?

Presumably he is still under contract to Newcastle until that time, so I would imagine he would still be bound by their rules. Neither club is going to go out on a limb for the SRU and risk a big fine. The players moving from Scotland to England may have a bit more latitude with their contract arrangements, though clearly Jackson did not, which would be why he was switched to the front end of the tour.

I still think it is going to be a TH we will struggle with if we have an injury. They could always bring Allen back out to SA to be a LH on the bench, but for TH who is there other than Murray?

Depends when his contract start date is.

He's either bound by Newcastle or bath just now so won't make any difference!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Depends when his contract start date is.

He's either bound by Newcastle or bath just now so won't make any difference!

Unless he takes a break between contracts - and would be "unattached" for the key two week period. It would be a massive risk, say if he got injured in the game......

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Depends when his contract start date is.

He's either bound by Newcastle or bath just now so won't make any difference!

Unless he takes a break between contracts - and would be "unattached" for the key two week period. It would be a massive risk, say if he got injured in the game......

Exactly, realistically it is not going to happen is it!

No, and it is a similar issue for Euan Murray, who I believe is also currently unattached.

Just read this peach on the BBC Scotland website;

'Hooker Scott Lawson hopes to have laid down a marker in Scotland's rugby wins over the USA and Canada before leaving Vern Cotter's squad - as planned - at the weekend. (Various)'

MacKnocked-on wrote:Just read this peach on the BBC Scotland website;

'Hooker Scott Lawson hopes to have laid down a marker in Scotland's rugby wins over the USA and Canada before leaving Vern Cotter's squad - as planned - at the weekend. (Various)'

He certainly laid down a marker all right - the (a) baldest, (b) smallest and (c) least skilful player on the park without question.

Every player lays down a marker. It's more that the marker laid down by Scott Lawson was an incredibly low one, a marker I'd hope could be easily surpassed by other options.

I think his one glory run has really got to his head. The best that could be said for his performance was that he was both conspicuous and busy, but the quality and impact just isn't there. For a while now he's been our solid option at hooker, but I think the time has come to look to other options. If we want a solid hooker in his mid-30s, then Dougie Hall is the best option. Appreciate that he's injured at the moment, but he was the best hooker in Scotland last season. I've never been a fan, and he was utterly mediocre under Frank Haddock (and invariably picked), but he's got his sh1t together over the last couple of seasons at Glasgow, and has the best basic skillset of all our options.

I think we've been floating between Ford, Hall and Lawson for too long. The coaching staff have obviously realised that too and that none of them will cut the mustard, hence the move for McInally and Bryce / Brown coming on tour with zero pro game time under their belts. I just hope those guys get some game time next season or it could be too late.

Well McInally should get game time for Edinburgh because Ford can't play every game and Hilterbrand has so far looked short of class, whilst Lutui joins ASBO on the Queen's list. There is Cochrane of course, who is competing strongly with Nicki Walker for Edinburgh's most anonymous signing of all time. Does he actually exist?

I've heard good things about Brown. MacArthur seems to have taken a step back, and his throwing looked wobbly last season. Brown has the distinction of being discarded by Edinburgh, which is usually a positive sign for any rugby player given our track record.

funnyExiledScot wrote:There is Cochrane of course, who is competing strongly with Nicki Walker for Edinburgh's most anonymous signing of all time. Does he actually exist?

FES, I was speaking to a good university friend a while back, who's a big Wasps fan, and I asked him about Cochrane. His response was "Christ, I forgot he played for us."

I'm not encouraged!

Yeh, he's hardly going to drive up season ticket sales. Still, he is SQ which is something, as is Hilterbrand. Although given the quality of both, I think it's also worth pointing out that I am also Scots qualified.

But early to throw Lawson on the scrap heap - yes he had a bad game but lets not forget the job he did last summer tour when Ford had the yips.

Hopefully we shouldn't have to rely on him going forward though!

Me too and i play at wing.

This tour idea has been srus biggest man sausage up yet.

Sorry I've no time to add anything else but been enjoying the banter

Ineffable wrote:Me too and i play at wing.

This tour idea has been srus biggest man sausage up yet.

Sorry I've no time to add anything else but been enjoying the banter

I am not sure I completely agree with that. I can see why we did not go for the series against the big boys. Seeing the way the Irish and the welsh have got thrashed at times over the past few years, you would wonder what they would have done to us over a series!

Our summer tours recently have given us some of our best results. A series win over Argentina, certainly not to be sniffed at. Beating Samoa and Fiji and Australia on the PI one a couple of years ago and then we gave SA a very good game with a weakened side last summer. Our problem has been more that we have not been able to build on these decent performances in the summer in our autumn games and the 6 nations.

We do have to try and play the big boys though and can't settle for easier games all the time hence why we are here. The logistics of this tour where always going to be difficult and the proximity to the commonwealth games, which again is a one off that we can't ignore, is a factor as well. We have got a world cup coming up though and do need to be challenging ourselves.

I am hopeful that we will put on a better show this weekend with some fresher players. This is not a full strength Argie team either, so it should be a reasonably fair contest. If we can come through that game without losing another few players then we just have to see what we can do against the Bokke. No one gave us a chance last year either. They will not have their overseas players either, not that that would make it an even contest, but it could change the dynamic of the game a little if they have to mix up their team a bit.

If nothing else VC will have had a good look at a lot of the players he will have available and will have a better idea how they shape up and will respond to his methods. I expect he has got an idea about a few of them already!

Any word from alive555 yet after last night's outburst?? Starting to worry!   

I like your optimism BigGee, and I agree with you on one thing certainly: this is not the biggest mistake the SRU have made!

I'm sure Alive555 is fine. What can possibly go wrong being hammered in the middle of Bangkok......

I am 50 years old and have been supporting Scotland a long time. Optimism is most definitely a required trait!

Sru have tweeted its a 26 man squad just now, so I'm assuming it's the 23 mentioned for the SA game plus cross, low and Cowan.

Apparently the full squad will be revealed soon!

Denton is out the tour. He has not recovered fromh ead knock picked up in the last league game of the season.

Shambles of a Summer continues.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:Denton is out the tour.  He has not recovered  fromh ead knock picked up in the last league game of the season.

Shambles of a Summer continues.

Sweet baby Jesus! Is there anyone left?
Someone get in touch with racist Uncle Dougie and find out if he's still on the no fly list. If is he is the SRU will need to book a paddle steamer.

So is Bennett with the squad now or has he gone home?

Wouldn't mind seeing Hogg at 13 if needed, confident he'd do a good job & Murchie is an able replacement at 15.

Not looking good if there's injuries, first choice XV is still pretty solid.

Excited to see Gray and Harley in the team, bit of bite in the pack.

Edit: ha, Denton injured, now we're stuffed.

reallybored wrote:So is Bennett with the squad now or has he gone home?

Wouldn't mind seeing Hogg at 13 if needed, confident he'd do a good job & Murchie is an able replacement at 15.

Not looking good if there's injuries, first choice XV is still pretty solid.

Excited to see Gray and Harley in the team, bit of bite in the pack.

Edit: ha, Denton injured, now we're stuffed.

Bennett is back in Scotland with the 7s.

Cowan should be able to do a job at 8 this weekend but SA is a real problem.

Clearly we are being drip feed information here. A couple of Denton's tweets recently did not sound like he was going on tour, so he must never have travelled. This is not a decision that would have been made at the last minute. It also explains why Cowan and Low have travelled on to Argentina.

We will still have a decent enough team for this game but are clearly going to need some troops for the next one in SA. Who are they going to call up, there is no one obvious left, even Ali Hogg I think was injured at the end of the season. Perhaps they will pull someone out of the sevens squad.

Probably worth mentioning that it is a good and commendable decision to pull Denton out if his concussion is not resolving. He has got a long career and life ahead of him so this can only be to his benefit. It seems the message is finally getting through.

Vernon?

Not the best news to wake up to - we're going to get slaughtered.

Current Scotland squad in Argentina:  Backs:  Stuart Hogg, Peter Murchie, Sean Maitland, Tommy Seymour, Dougie Fife, Nick De Luca, Peter Horne, Tom Heathcote, Duncan Weir, Henry Pyrgos and Grayson Hart.  Forwards: Gordon Reid, Alasdair Dickinson, Kevin Bryce, Pat MacArthur, Ross Ford, Jon Welsh, Geoff Cross, Moray Low, Tim Swinson, Grant Gilchrist, Jonny Gray, Kieran Low, Robert Harley, Blair Cowan and Chris Fusaro.

Confirmation of what we were assuming the squad to be just now

It's interesting that this looks to be a different squad than the one we saw in North America? I had my suspicions

RDW_Scotland wrote:Current Scotland squad in Argentina:  Backs:  Stuart Hogg, Peter Murchie, Sean Maitland, Tommy Seymour, Dougie Fife, Nick De Luca, Peter Horne, Tom Heathcote, Duncan Weir, Henry Pyrgos and Grayson Hart.  Forwards: Gordon Reid, Alasdair Dickinson, Kevin Bryce, Pat MacArthur, Ross Ford, Jon Welsh, Geoff Cross, Moray Low, Tim Swinson, Grant Gilchrist, Jonny Gray, Kieran Low, Robert Harley, Blair Cowan and Chris Fusaro.

Confirmation of what we were assuming the squad to be just now

Okay, so from that lot, I would like:
1. Reid
2. MacArthur
3. Welsh
4. Gray
5. Swinson
6. Low
7. Fusaro
8. Harley
 
9. Hart
10. Heathcote
11. Seymour
12. Horne
13. Hogg
14. Maitland
15. Murchie
 
16. Dickinson
17. Ford
18. Cross
19. Gilchrist
20. Cowan
21. Pyrgos
22. Weir
23. Fife
 
That's just picking the best team, without consideration of holding players back for the Springboks.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:It's interesting that this looks to be a different squad than the one we saw in North America?  I had my suspicions

No flies on you.

FH is going to be interesting, does he play the one who is hopelessly out of form or the one who has hardly played all year!

Personally I would like to see Heathcote get a start and I imagine whoever starts this one, injuries aside will start in SA as well. He has done pretty well in his A team appearances and did ok till he was injured in SA last year. He certainly has got a lot to prove and as Russell is by no means the finished article yet could still be a dark horse to claim the shirt for the world cup!

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Current Scotland squad in Argentina:  Backs:  Stuart Hogg, Peter Murchie, Sean Maitland, Tommy Seymour, Dougie Fife, Nick De Luca, Peter Horne, Tom Heathcote, Duncan Weir, Henry Pyrgos and Grayson Hart.  Forwards: Gordon Reid, Alasdair Dickinson, Kevin Bryce, Pat MacArthur, Ross Ford, Jon Welsh, Geoff Cross, Moray Low, Tim Swinson, Grant Gilchrist, Jonny Gray, Kieran Low, Robert Harley, Blair Cowan and Chris Fusaro.

Confirmation of what we were assuming the squad to be just now

Okay, so from that lot, I would like:
1. Reid
2. MacArthur
3. Welsh
4. Gray
5. Swinson
6. Low
7. Fusaro
8. Harley
 
9. Hart
10. Heathcote
11. Seymour
12. Horne
13. Hogg
14. Maitland
15. Murchie
 
16. Dickinson
17. Ford
18. Cross
19. Gilchrist
20. Cowan
21. Pyrgos
22. Weir
23. Fife
 
That's just picking the best team, without consideration of holding players back for the Springboks.

Agree about picking the best team, just not convinced that is it!

Ford at Hooker
Cowan at No.8
Harley at BS
De Luca at OC
Hogg at FB

Fife probably the one to drop of the bench for Murchie, who can cover centre and back three.

reallybored wrote:Vernon?

With the 7s

The Scotsman made the point that the 7a squad is the only realistic place to find players from, with Eddie and Grant mentioned

Lineen should call up John Hardie and tell him he's guaranteed a start against SA.

Never going to happen sadly   

George Carlin wrote:
Okay, so from that lot, I would like:
1. Reid
2. MacArthur
3. Welsh
4. Gray
5. Swinson
6. Low
7. Fusaro
8. Harley
 
9. Hart
10. Heathcote
11. Seymour
12. Horne
13. Hogg
14. Maitland
15. Murchie
 
16. Dickinson
17. Ford
18. Cross
19. Gilchrist
20. Cowan
21. Pyrgos
22. Weir
23. Fife
 
That's just picking the best team, without consideration of holding players back for the Springboks.

I agree with that apart from the back row. I would put Cowan at 8 and use Harley at 6, using Low on the bench. This game will be a scrap, and having both Fusaro and Cowan starting could help us. We're not going to win an arm wrestle here but we can make the breakdown a mess for Argentina (the selections of MacArthur, Jonny Gray and Swinson also help with that) and attack like crazy off turnover ball.

We should hold nothing back and go all out to win this game. The Boks game will just have to take care of itself, plus this is winnable, whereas the Boks game is not.