Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June

by **George Carlin** Sun 15 Jun 2014, 9:53 am

First topic message reminder :

Argentina v Scotland
20 June 2014, KO: 16:10 ART (20:10 BST)
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba

Live on Sky Sports 3

Referee: John Lacey (Ire)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (Fra), Lourens van der Merwe (SA)
TMO: Deon van Blommenstein (SA)

A. Teams:

I. Argentina
Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 5 Pope_f10

Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 5 Pope_f10

1- Bruno Postiglioni (La Plata)
2- Julián Montoya (Newman)
3- Matías Díaz (Highlanders)
4- Manuel Carizza (Stormers)
5- Matías Alemanno (Tablada)
6- Rodrigo Báez (Liceo)
7- Javier Ortega Desio (Parana)
8- Tomás De la Vega (CUBA)

9- Tomás Cubelli (capitán) (Belgrano)
10- Nicolás Sánchez (Bordeaux Begles)
11- Manuel Montero (Pucurá)
12- Santiago González Iglesias (Alumni)
13- Matías Orlando (Huirapuca)
14- Santiago Cordero (Regatas)
15- Lucas González Amorosino (Oyonnax)

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez (Uni Tucumán)
17- Lucas Noguera Paz (Lince RC)
18- Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro (NG Dragons)
19- Tomás Lavanini (La Plata)
20- Antonio Ahualli de Chazal (Uni Tucumán)
21- Martín Landajo (C.A.S.I.)
22- Matías Moroni (CUBA)
23- Joaquín Tuculet (Bordeaux Begles)

II. Scotland
Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 5 Im_jol10

Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 5 Im_jol10

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps, 5 tries, 1 penalty, 28 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Nick De Luca (Biarritz) 41 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 13 caps, 1 try, 3 conversions, 1 penalty, 1 drop-goal, 17 points
9 Grayson Hart (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 34 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 75 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Geoff Cross (London Irish) 30 caps, 1 try, 5 points
4 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
5 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 6 caps, 1 try, 5 points CAPTAIN
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish) 2 caps
8 Kieran Low (London Irish) 3 caps

16 Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
18 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps
20 Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Tom Heathcote (Edinburgh Rugby) 3 caps
23 Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap

B. Numbers - head to head:

13 Played 13
9 Won 4
4 Lost 9
247 Points 218

C. Results

25 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
13 – 12 to Argentina
2011 Rugby World Cup

19 June 2010
Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata
9 – 13 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

12 June 2010
Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán
16 – 24 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina

28 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 9 to Argentina

2009 Autumn International
14 June 2008
Vélez Sársfield, Buenos Aires
14 – 26 to Scotland

2008 Scottish tour of Argentina
7 June 2008
Gigante de Arroyito, Rosario
21 – 15 to Argentina

7 October 2007
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
19 – 13 to Argentina
2007 Rugby World Cup

12 November 2005
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
19 – 23 to Argentina
2005 Autumn International

18 November 2001
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
16 – 25 to Argentina

21 August 1999
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
22 – 31 to Argentina

11 June 1994
Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires
19 – 17 to Argentina

4 June 1994
Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires
16 – 15 to Argentina

10 November 1990
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
49 – 3 to Scotland

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 11:36 am

We always play the Tongans in Aberdeen so that (a) GLove can go to the game and report back for the rest of us on here and (b) they are so t!tfreezing cold that they cannot score more than 9 tries against us.

by **RDW** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 11:39 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Tonga is going to be played away from Murrayfield - venue to be announced.

I'm assuming it won't be Pittodrie given players and fans still have post traumatic stress from the last time we played there.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 11:42 am

McDiarmid Park, Scotstoun or Pittodrie would be the main options I'd assume, although I'd like to see Inverness considered. If you think Pittodrie is cold then Inverness will be a real shock to the system for the Tongans. Not sure about the pitch dimensions though.

by **BigGee** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 11:44 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:McDiarmid Park, Scotstoun or Pittodrie would be the main options I'd assume, although I'd like to see Inverness considered. If you think Pittodrie is cold then Inverness will be a real shock to the system for the Tongans. Not sure about the pitch dimensions though.

I thought Rugby Park was being talked about seriously

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 11:48 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Tonga is going to be played away from Murrayfield - venue to be announced.

I'm assuming it won't be Pittodrie given players and fans still have post traumatic stress from the last time we played there.

Was that the evening of Tom Heathcote's Worst Nightmare? ghost

by **RDW** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 11:50 am

That's the one.

Crying or Very sad

by GLove39 Thu 19 Jun 2014, 12:15 pm

George Carlin wrote:We always play the Tongans in Aberdeen so that (a) GLove can go to the game and report back for the rest of us on here

by GLove39 Thu 19 Jun 2014, 12:17 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Tonga is going to be played away from Murrayfield - venue to be announced.

I'm assuming it won't be Pittodrie given players and fans still have post traumatic stress from the last time we played there.

It has to be Pittodrie, the good people of Aberdeen need closure after THAT defeat.

by SirBurger Thu 19 Jun 2014, 12:56 pm

Surprised to see Low at 8. He has only played there once for us (Irish) in an LV Cup game. In fact, and no criticism intended, I am kind of surprised he is getting international recognition at this stage of his career. The coaches at Irish seem to clearly rate him, as do the Scottish coaches obviously, but for me he would be some way down the pecking order both at lock and in the back row. As I have said before, he could develop into an excellent player, and I feel that he is a few years behind his age in development due to basically losing three whole seasons due to injuries, but as things stand he seems very raw, misses a fair number of tackles, tends to drop the ball a lot and goes into contact too upright.

by **BigGee** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 1:03 pm

SirBurger wrote:Surprised to see Low at 8. He has only played there once for us (Irish) in an LV Cup game. In fact, and no criticism intended, I am kind of surprised he is getting international recognition at this stage of his career. The coaches at Irish seem to clearly rate him, as do the Scottish coaches obviously, but for me he would be some way down the pecking order both at lock and in the back row. As I have said before, he could develop into an excellent player, and I feel that he is a few years behind his age in development due to basically losing three whole seasons due to injuries, but as things stand he seems very raw, misses a fair number of tackles, tends to drop the ball a lot and goes into contact too upright.

I think most Scotland fans would also agree that he is a little bit down the pecking order as well. Also fair to say we are just a little bit stretched at the moment. At least it is good to know that we are capping a player with potential and one that might benefit from the experience and grow into something better.

by Nematode Thu 19 Jun 2014, 1:08 pm

I would guess playing Low and Cowan is damage limitation for the SA game, as they cannot play in that game.

Just wondering if we would see any of Stuart McInally, Hamish Watson, Adam Ashe, Will Bordill, Tyrone Holmes (not in 7s) at 8/bench? Given Tyrone Holmes has SA experience, would he be most likely to perhaps bench with Swinson, Fusaro, Harley starting?

by MacKnocked-on Thu 19 Jun 2014, 1:09 pm

BigGee wrote:
SirBurger wrote:Surprised to see Low at 8. He has only played there once for us (Irish) in an LV Cup game. In fact, and no criticism intended, I am kind of surprised he is getting international recognition at this stage of his career. The coaches at Irish seem to clearly rate him, as do the Scottish coaches obviously, but for me he would be some way down the pecking order both at lock and in the back row. As I have said before, he could develop into an excellent player, and I feel that he is a few years behind his age in development due to basically losing three whole seasons due to injuries, but as things stand he seems very raw, misses a fair number of tackles, tends to drop the ball a lot and goes into contact too upright.

I think most Scotland fans would also agree that he is a little bit down the pecking order as well. Also fair to say we are just a little bit stretched at the moment. At least it is good to know that we are capping a player with potential and one that might benefit from the experience and grow into something better.

On the plus side he is big enough to make some impact at 8, interesting to see if he gives much go forward tomorrow. Neither Denton nor Beattie have nailed down the position so there are opportunities for others, hopefully Low plays well.

by Nematode Thu 19 Jun 2014, 1:09 pm

Hang on, is Jason White retired officially/at a Japanese club? Could he get the boots back on?

by Nematode Thu 19 Jun 2014, 1:10 pm

What should be exciting is potentially seeing 2x7s playing

by Nematode Thu 19 Jun 2014, 1:20 pm

On a side note, does anyone think there are similarities between Spain last night (vs Chile) and Wales with regard to perhaps stale tactics and overused players?

Gatland hasn't really changed anything since RWC11. They've got world class players - Halfpenny, North, Warbuton, AWJ, Hibbard but WG seems to be reluctant to introduce some new, fresh faces/ideas (i.e. Cory Allen, Gareth Davies, Jordan Williams, Samson Lee).

Mark Bennett aside, at least the coaches are giving inexperienced players a shot.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 2:18 pm

Don't bring the Welsh onto this thread - if you get both the Welsh and the Weegie fans on the same thread you'll be stuck with a "my player is more world classer than your player" tirade......

by Guest Thu 19 Jun 2014, 2:42 pm

Given that Wales exiting the world cup at the same stage Spain have is not an unlikely scenario, your comparison works pretty well.

They're not defending champs though. Thank goodness.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 3:11 pm

Regenerating a winning side is very difficult, and few teams manage it (and no side has ever won back to back World Cups).

Luckily Scotland have never really had that problem.....

The best in the business have been the All Blacks since the last World Cup, and they are in a strong position to win it again. Their strength is depth, and the constant transitioning of new players into the side. ABs nearly always slot into a winning side when they come through the ranks, full of established combinations, so they rarely have to undertake the sort of wholescale change exercise that Lancaster (for example) has had to do with England. Woodward failed miserably in this regard after 2003 - I don't think any side in history has declined so fast, and he did not attend to transitioning in the next group of players at all.

Gatland is struggling a bit in that regard with Wales, but he's earned the chance to put things right for the next World Cup.

by reallybored Thu 19 Jun 2014, 3:33 pm

How's everyone feeling about Friday, confident?

No sure what to think personally, such an inexperienced side but there are some good players in the team.

Our back-five of the pack may be inexperienced but 4 guys at 6'6 and plenty of bulk too, so not too worried about getting over-powered.

Play it safe and let Weir dictate territory and we should be good enough out-wide to pick off any chances we create. Don't want an open game tough because I think they'll beat us at it.

by **RDW** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 3:50 pm

My main concern is destructive ball carriers - people to get us over the gainline.

Gray and Gilchrist will carry all day long but that back row is very much defensive rather than offensive.

Likewise in the backs - very much lacking in oomph!

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 4:01 pm

Exactly the point I was making above. We're not going to punch holes in Argentina through the forwards, or dominate the ball, so we need to play smart. Step up the intensity in defence when they have the ball (and we have plenty workrate in that pack), and look to move it around when we have it.

I think we're heading towards defeat sadly, but if we are going to win Duncan Weir is going to have to play really well. We have to play in the right areas and exit our 22 well. We cannot afford any of the rubbish we served up against Canada in that regard, and with the ball we must be accurate in the contact area. It's a basic skill but the ball was bobbling around all over the place in and around the tackle area and we need to slicken up.

I'm quite excited about it. Just need to find an Edinburgh venue willing to spurn the Wendyball.

by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jun 2014, 4:08 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:.

I'm quite excited about it. Just need to find an Edinburgh venue willing to spurn the Wendyball.

Pear tree might be showing it

by **RDW** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 4:09 pm

Plenty good rugby pubs in Stockbridge!

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 4:16 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Don't bring the Welsh onto this thread - if you get both the Welsh and the Weegie fans on the same thread you'll be stuck with a "my player is more world classer than your player" tirade......

Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 5 Broken10

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 4:22 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Plenty good rugby pubs in Stockbridge!

They are really good when the 6 Nations is on, but less so for other games. St Bernards is pretty grim but was my saviour for the early morning Lions tests last year.

On a Friday evening I suspect they'll all be a bit too "metro" to show the rugby. I hope to be wrong!

by **BigGee** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 4:34 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:My main concern is destructive ball carriers - people to get us over the gainline.

Gray and Gilchrist will carry all day long but that back row is very much defensive rather than offensive.

Likewise in the backs - very much lacking in oomph!

You say that but we are not so badly off. Both second rows as you say carrying very well and I think you can add Ross Ford to that list and Geoff Cross does not mind a trundle forward as well. Low at no.8 is a big lump and liked to carry as well from what I saw of him, just had a tendency to lose the ball in contact. Rob Harley we tend just to see as a tackling machine, but his ball carrying is much imporoved over the past few seasons. You don't last long in the Glasgow team if you don't have a good pair of hands on you.

I like the fact that this is a young team with nothing to lose, reputations are to be made here not to be lost and any of these guys could be playing themselves into the world cup squad if they put in a perfermance. Lets be honest, some of the old guard did not cover themselves in glory the past couple of weekends. Lets see what the kids can do!

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 4:39 pm

I certainly think that this is a good match for Duncan Weir. It's a perfect game for him to throw in a battling performance and show Cotter what he's made of. He had a poor year last year, but this is a good opportunity to redeem himself and his skillset is quite suited to what will be required. If he gets his radar right Weir can be a devastating tactical kicker. Nothing hits the morale of a side like Argentina quite like slugging away to make 20 attritional metres through multiple phases only to be turned over and have the opposition 10 pump the ball back 40 metres.

by Nematode Thu 19 Jun 2014, 5:08 pm

We do actually have quite a few carrying options. Ross Ford can carry, so too Geoff Cross. Gilchrist and Gray should carry throughout. Harley too can carry pretty effectively, so too Blair Cowan actually.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 5:14 pm

There's a difference between running with a ball in your hand and actually being an international quality ball carrier.

I think the real question mark is whether Kieran Low can adequately cover for Denton/Beattie, who both get through a lot of ball carrying when they ball. There's also Bob Harley in place of Brown/Strokosch. Whilst Harley has worked extremely hard on this aspect of his game, he is not the finished article. He 100% deserves to play, it's just a shame that there isn't a specialist number 8 (like Strauss) playing with him.

by Nematode Thu 19 Jun 2014, 5:38 pm

Mike Blair's column is up:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27910957

"Yes, the tour is a bit bizarre; two squads playing games in three continents over a four-week period. But it's a great environment for new coach Vern Cotter to learn about his players, the players that will make up the vast majority of his World Cup 2015 squad.

The performances against USA and Canada have probably produced more questions than answers but two matches were won and those who flew back home last Sunday will have a good few months to see if they have made a significant enough first impression to merit continued selection.

So, to Argentina on Friday night. A Test match against a talented, inexperienced Pumas side who ran a strong Irish XV close two weeks' running.
Argentina have been operating with a split squad policy too. With the Rugby Championship to come in July, they have taken this opportunity to rest some front-line players.

Grant Gilchrist has been handed the captain's armband for the Scots. This shows that he is rated highly by the Scottish management as a player and leader - especially with former skipper Ross Ford a contender - but also perhaps highlights how inexperienced the XV taking the field is.

I hope he will lead from the Martin Johnson mould of "follow me." This is his natural leadership style and he has the respect of his peers - he shouldn't feel he has to speak, only when he feels it's required.

It's great to see Nick de Luca back in the number 13 jersey. He's had a tough domestic year with injury and non-selection for Edinburgh but really showed his class in the World 7's series in Glasgow.

Argentina have a fairly passive 'drift' defence using the touchline as an extra defender so De Luca's fast feet and offload ability will be key to attack.
It's a funny game. A week ago he will have been heading off to new club Biarritz in Pro D2 thinking that his international career was over. Now, he can play his way right back into contention for the World Cup.

Duncan Weir has had a strange old season too. Scotland's starting stand-off during the Six Nations, then unable to find a place in Glasgow's squad for the run in of the Pro12 campaign. He will certainly feel he has a point to prove.

He showed glimpses of his ability to manage a game during the Six Nations but international rugby is about consistency and this is where he will look to improve.

With regards to tactics, I don't think they should be too specific. Sometimes you can get caught up in different tactics for different teams and it becomes hard to decipher what a team's core principles and structures are.

From the failings in the previous two Test matches, there must be a heavy emphasis on ball retention and putting phases together. Yes, if the weather is good, the ideal is to attack the slightly wider channels where there are easier yards and then play through the defence once they are spread but the priority is building phases and pressure so I don't think it matters where or how, just as long as it happens. Not only does this build confidence within the Scotland team but it will also help to quieten the partisan Cordoba crowd.

Defensively, coach Matt Taylor will be fed up of screaming "line speed" this week. He will want a really aggressive, in-your-face defence and, with 13 Glasgow Warriors players in the match squad, he will expect it.

It's time to lay down some markers showing what Scottish rugby is about"

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 6:07 pm

Nematode wrote:Mike Blair's column is up:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27910957

"Yes, the tour is a bit bizarre; two squads playing games in three continents over a four-week period. But it's a great environment for new coach Vern Cotter to learn about his players, the players that will make up the vast majority of his World Cup 2015 squad.

The performances against USA and Canada have probably produced more questions than answers but two matches were won and those who flew back home last Sunday will have a good few months to see if they have made a significant enough first impression to merit continued selection.

So, to Argentina on Friday night. A Test match against a talented, inexperienced Pumas side who ran a strong Irish XV close two weeks' running.
Argentina have been operating with a split squad policy too. With the Rugby Championship to come in July, they have taken this opportunity to rest some front-line players.

Grant Gilchrist has been handed the captain's armband for the Scots. This shows that he is rated highly by the Scottish management as a player and leader - especially with former skipper Ross Ford a contender - but also perhaps highlights how inexperienced the XV taking the field is.

I hope he will lead from the Martin Johnson mould of "follow me." This is his natural leadership style and he has the respect of his peers - he shouldn't feel he has to speak, only when he feels it's required.

It's great to see Nick de Luca back in the number 13 jersey. He's had a tough domestic year with injury and non-selection for Edinburgh but really showed his class in the World 7's series in Glasgow.

Argentina have a fairly passive 'drift' defence using the touchline as an extra defender so De Luca's fast feet and offload ability will be key to attack.
It's a funny game. A week ago he will have been heading off to new club Biarritz in Pro D2 thinking that his international career was over. Now, he can play his way right back into contention for the World Cup.

Duncan Weir has had a strange old season too. Scotland's starting stand-off during the Six Nations, then unable to find a place in Glasgow's squad for the run in of the Pro12 campaign. He will certainly feel he has a point to prove.

He showed glimpses of his ability to manage a game during the Six Nations but international rugby is about consistency and this is where he will look to improve.

With regards to tactics, I don't think they should be too specific. Sometimes you can get caught up in different tactics for different teams and it becomes hard to decipher what a team's core principles and structures are.

From the failings in the previous two Test matches, there must be a heavy emphasis on ball retention and putting phases together. Yes, if the weather is good, the ideal is to attack the slightly wider channels where there are easier yards and then play through the defence once they are spread but the priority is building phases and pressure so I don't think it matters where or how, just as long as it happens. Not only does this build confidence within the Scotland team but it will also help to quieten the partisan Cordoba crowd.

Defensively, coach Matt Taylor will be fed up of screaming "line speed" this week. He will want a really aggressive, in-your-face defence and, with 13 Glasgow Warriors players in the match squad, he will expect it.

It's time to lay down some markers showing what Scottish rugby is about"

Measured, sparse and interesting.

He really is the Anti-Stuart Barnes.

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:17 pm

Pumas are up:

1- Bruno Postiglioni
2- Julián Montoya
3- Matías Díaz
4- Manuel Carizza
5- Matías Alemanno
6- Rodrigo Báez
7- Javier Ortega Desio
8- Tomás De la Vega

9- Tomás Cubelli (capitán)
10- Nicolás Sánchez
11- Manuel Montero
12- Santiago González Iglesias
13- Matías Orlando
14- Santiago Cordero
15- Lucas González Amorosino

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez
17- Lucas Noguera Paz
18- Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro
19- Tomás Lavanini
20- Antonio Ahualli de Chazal
21- Martín Landajo
22- Matías Moroni
23- Joaquín Tuculet

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:20 pm

No Tomas Leonardi???

by **RDW** Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:05 pm

Or Joaquin Dominguez??

by **RDW** Fri 20 Jun 2014, 8:12 am

Well the day hasn't got off to the best start, with Scotland under 20s getting humped 41-21 by the Argies, meaning they finish in 10th (probably a fair reflection of where they are).

The good news is however that they have qualified for the next tournament, which is vitally important.

Was a hellishly tough group for them with NZ, SA and Samoa. Given one the main disadvantages of our under 20s is their physicality and conditioning, they couldn't have asked for a worse group.

Judging by reports flanker Tommy Spinks (LS), Edinburgh's new signing 17 year old back row Jamie Ritchie and Glasgow's tighthead D'arcy Ray showed up well in the forwards. Less promising performances in the backs, but Edinburgh's Damien Hoyland and Jamie Farndale managed to score a couple of nice tries.

So no real surprised really that our Scotland team is regularly in 8-10th place, given our under 20s are regularly in the 8-10th position!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 20 Jun 2014, 8:39 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well the day hasn't got off to the best start, with Scotland under 20s getting humped 41-21 by the Argies, meaning they finish in 10th (probably a fair reflection of where they are).

The good news is however that they have qualified for the next tournament, which is vitally important.

Was a hellishly tough group for them with NZ, SA and Samoa. Given one the main disadvantages of our under 20s is their physicality and conditioning, they couldn't have asked for a worse group.

Judging by reports flanker Tommy Spinks (LS), Edinburgh's new signing 17 year old back row Jamie Ritchie and Glasgow's tighthead D'arcy Ray showed up well in the forwards. Less promising performances in the backs, but Edinburgh's Damien Hoyland and Jamie Farndale managed to score a couple of nice tries.

So no real surprised really that our Scotland team is regularly in 8-10th place, given our under 20s are regularly in the 8-10th position!

Back to mathematics class for you, young man warning

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 20 Jun 2014, 8:40 am

George Carlin wrote:Pumas are up:

1- Bruno Postiglioni
2- Julián Montoya
3- Matías Díaz
4- Manuel Carizza
5- Matías Alemanno
6- Rodrigo Báez
7- Javier Ortega Desio
8- Tomás De la Vega

9- Tomás Cubelli (capitán)
10- Nicolás Sánchez
11- Manuel Montero
12- Santiago González Iglesias
13- Matías Orlando
14- Santiago Cordero
15- Lucas González Amorosino

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez
17- Lucas Noguera Paz
18- Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro
19- Tomás Lavanini
20- Antonio Ahualli de Chazal
21- Martín Landajo
22- Matías Moroni
23- Joaquín Tuculet

9 changes from the side that faced Ireland in their second match - does that represent strength in depth or are we facing a weakened side?

by **RDW** Fri 20 Jun 2014, 9:31 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Well the day hasn't got off to the best start, with Scotland under 20s getting humped 41-21 by the Argies, meaning they finish in 10th (probably a fair reflection of where they are).

The good news is however that they have qualified for the next tournament, which is vitally important.

Was a hellishly tough group for them with NZ, SA and Samoa. Given one the main disadvantages of our under 20s is their physicality and conditioning, they couldn't have asked for a worse group.

Judging by reports flanker Tommy Spinks (LS), Edinburgh's new signing 17 year old back row Jamie Ritchie and Glasgow's tighthead D'arcy Ray showed up well in the forwards. Less promising performances in the backs, but Edinburgh's Damien Hoyland and Jamie Farndale managed to score a couple of nice tries.

So no real surprised really that our Scotland team is regularly in 8-10th place, given our under 20s are regularly in the 8-10th position!

Back to mathematics class for you, young man

Suppose I was lumping both into the same thing - basically they're all a lot bigger than us!

by jimbopip Fri 20 Jun 2014, 10:10 am

See RDW, Asbo's good with numbers: one line down the middle of one road. No more no less.
p.s. have pm-ed you.

by **George Carlin** Fri 20 Jun 2014, 11:12 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Pumas are up:

1- Bruno Postiglioni
2- Julián Montoya
3- Matías Díaz
4- Manuel Carizza
5- Matías Alemanno
6- Rodrigo Báez
7- Javier Ortega Desio
8- Tomás De la Vega

9- Tomás Cubelli (capitán)
10- Nicolás Sánchez
11- Manuel Montero
12- Santiago González Iglesias
13- Matías Orlando
14- Santiago Cordero
15- Lucas González Amorosino

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez
17- Lucas Noguera Paz
18- Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro
19- Tomás Lavanini
20- Antonio Ahualli de Chazal
21- Martín Landajo
22- Matías Moroni
23- Joaquín Tuculet

9 changes from the side that faced Ireland in their second match - does that represent strength in depth or are we facing a weakened side?

I think it's strength in depth and this team may even be stronger than the one which played Ireland. Someone with more knowledge will need to explain the 9 changes to me, though, because I only count 6 players who are playing here who didn't also feature against Ireland in the second test.

When you look at the players that aren't featuring this week, who did play against Ireland last week:

De la Fuente (Duendes)
Ascarate (ex-Glasgow Warriors)
Cortese (Liceo)
Herrera (Castres)
Postiglioni (La Plata)
Alemanno (Tablada),

they don't seem to play for clubs that are well rated (or in one case, do seem to play for a club which is over-rated).

On the other hand, the team playing us does seem to be well stocked with players who have come through the best Argie regional sides, which I understand are basically always Tucaman, Cordoba, Rosario and Buenes Aires.

I think that we can assume that it will be at least as tough as Ireland found it.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 20 Jun 2014, 12:17 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Judging by reports flanker Tommy Spinks (LS), Edinburgh's new signing 17 year old back row Jamie Ritchie and Glasgow's tighthead D'arcy Ray showed up well in the forwards. Less promising performances in the backs, but Edinburgh's Damien Hoyland and Jamie Farndale managed to score a couple of nice tries.

So no real surprised really that our Scotland team is regularly in 8-10th place, given our under 20s are regularly in the 8-10th position!

Yes, but how was their kicking game? What did their tackle completion stats look like?

Doesn't sound promising for the youngsters, but equally important is how South Africa and New Zealand get on. That's where we'll be sourcing our next crop of project players from.......

by **Notch** Fri 20 Jun 2014, 2:03 pm

This team is roughly as strong as the one that played Ireland, maybe slightly weaker.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 20 Jun 2014, 3:32 pm

Sadly the Scotland side will be considerably weaker than the Ireland team that faced Argentina last time around.....

by Nematode Fri 20 Jun 2014, 3:54 pm

Reasons to be optimistic:

- Grant Gilchrist and Jonny Gray starting, arguably our future lock partnership, that hit rucks and carry.
- Rob Harley starting after a good season with Glasgow, instead of Stroker who is staying with relegated Perpignan.
- Grayson Hart hopefully giving faster service to the backs.

Is this a must win/should win for VC?

by funnyExiledScot Fri 20 Jun 2014, 4:45 pm

Agree with those positives. I'm also pleased that we have a 12 with good distribution skills and a back three with pace and offering a running threat.

Argentina kick a fair bit of ball, so the back three need to counter-attack. If it doesn't work then fine, we recycle and get Weir to return it with interest, but the pack need to be aware that counter-attacks are going to be important and they need to work extremely hard to get back and support.

Mike Blair talks about building the phases. I actually don't think this is key to Scotland's game plan at all in this match, as I don't see this pack dominating the ball in that way. I think where we can be dangerous is on the counter-attack and from turnover ball, as we have the strike runners to cause problems. I don't see us grinding this out in the same manner as Andy Robinson's Scotland managed to do.

If we win I would not be surprised if Argentina still dominated possession - in much the same way as Italy did when we last beat them at Murrayfield (when Hogg scored that great try). It's that sort of opportunistic score off loose ball that the Scotland back three need to be waiting for.

by cakeordeath Fri 20 Jun 2014, 7:02 pm

Beers are in the fridge, I have the house to myself. Jerk chicken is in the oven. Tonight is going to be a good night.

by Nematode Fri 20 Jun 2014, 7:07 pm

Is there any radio coverage?

by justified sinner Fri 20 Jun 2014, 7:52 pm

In Finnegan's Wake. Bring it on!

by **RDW** Fri 20 Jun 2014, 8:03 pm

Hugo and big Al in the studio!

by highland_scot Fri 20 Jun 2014, 8:08 pm

an interesting rendition of Flower of Scotland!

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