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Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June

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Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 4 Empty Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June

Post by George Carlin Sun 15 Jun 2014, 9:53 am

First topic message reminder :

Argentina Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 4 502010 v ScotlandScotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 4 Gaah10  
20 June 2014, KO: 16:10 ART (20:10 BST)
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba
 
Live on Sky Sports 3
 
Referee: John Lacey (Ire)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (Fra), Lourens van der Merwe (SA)
TMO: Deon van Blommenstein (SA)
 
A. Teams:
 
I. Argentina
Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 4 Pope_f10
1- Bruno Postiglioni (La Plata)
2- Julián Montoya (Newman)
3- Matías Díaz (Highlanders)
4- Manuel Carizza (Stormers)
5- Matías Alemanno (Tablada)
6- Rodrigo Báez (Liceo)
7- Javier Ortega Desio (Parana)
8- Tomás De la Vega (CUBA)

9- Tomás Cubelli (capitán) (Belgrano)
10- Nicolás Sánchez (Bordeaux Begles)
11- Manuel Montero (Pucurá)
12- Santiago González Iglesias (Alumni)
13- Matías Orlando (Huirapuca)
14- Santiago Cordero (Regatas)
15- Lucas González Amorosino (Oyonnax)

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez (Uni Tucumán)
17- Lucas Noguera Paz (Lince RC)
18- Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro (NG Dragons)
19- Tomás Lavanini (La Plata)
20- Antonio Ahualli de Chazal (Uni Tucumán)
21- Martín Landajo (C.A.S.I.)
22- Matías Moroni (CUBA)
23- Joaquín Tuculet (Bordeaux Begles)

II. Scotland
Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 4 Im_jol10
15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps, 5 tries, 1 penalty, 28 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Nick De Luca (Biarritz) 41 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
 
10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 13 caps, 1 try, 3 conversions, 1 penalty, 1 drop-goal, 17 points
9 Grayson Hart (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap
 
1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 34 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 75 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Geoff Cross (London Irish) 30 caps, 1 try, 5 points
4 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
5 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 6 caps, 1 try, 5 points CAPTAIN
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish) 2 caps
8 Kieran Low (London Irish) 3 caps
 
16 Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
18 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps
20 Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Tom Heathcote (Edinburgh Rugby) 3 caps
23 Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap
 
B. Numbers - head to head:
 
13 Played 13
9 Won 4
4 Lost 9
247 Points 218
 
C. Results
 
25 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
13 – 12 to Argentina
2011 Rugby World Cup
 
19 June 2010
Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata
9 – 13 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina
 
12 June 2010
Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán
16 – 24 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina
 
28 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 9 to Argentina
 
2009 Autumn International
14 June 2008
Vélez Sársfield, Buenos Aires
14 – 26 to Scotland
 
2008 Scottish tour of Argentina
7 June 2008
Gigante de Arroyito, Rosario
21 – 15 to Argentina
 
7 October 2007
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
19 – 13 to Argentina
2007 Rugby World Cup
 
12 November 2005
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
19 – 23 to Argentina
2005 Autumn International
 
18 November 2001
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
16 – 25 to Argentina
 
21 August 1999
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
22 – 31 to Argentina
 
11 June 1994
Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires
19 – 17 to Argentina
 
4 June 1994
Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires
16 – 15 to Argentina
 
10 November 1990
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
49 – 3 to Scotland


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:38 pm; edited 13 times in total
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Post by RDW Wed 18 Jun 2014, 11:19 am

I think it is really important for the tour to be classed as meaningful for the future if we manage to get something out this game.

Let's face it, USA and Canada games gave us nothing other than giving some guys first caps. If we go on to put in another limp performance against Argentina then get humped by SA it will have been a real waste of a tour.

A good performance against Argentina would be a real boost!

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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 18 Jun 2014, 11:40 am

A win against Argentina would be a real boost, nevermind performance.

Against Canada and the USA I expected both a performance and a result, sadly we only got the result in each case, and the performance in both cases was substandard (and utterly dreadful against Canada).

Against Argentina I'd absolutely settle for a result, however we get it. Argentina are a close rival to Scotland in the pecking order and we need to be beating them.

Against South Africa we won't get a result, so the performance becomes important. Learning how to restrict players like Le Roux is key, and could be a decent exercise for the Scotland players. It'll also be an extremely stern examination of our defence, contacts skills and breakdown skills, and also our kicking game, all of which were insultingly appauling against Canada.

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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 12:34 pm

Given Hogg's our most exciting player, it would probably be best to play him at inside centre to allow him more time on the ball, possibly with experienced NDL outside him.


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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 12:35 pm

! Team announced at 1630 on twitter

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Post by RDW Wed 18 Jun 2014, 12:54 pm

Nematode wrote:Given Hogg's our most exciting player, it would probably be best to play him at inside centre to allow him more time on the ball, possibly with experienced NDL outside him.


More time in the ball but much less space and defenders up in this face quicker, hence why brute force is often deployed at 12. Plus, he's never played there before!

His talents are much better served out wide.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:29 pm

Agreed on Hogg. I would not ordinarily advocate him moving from 15, his best position, but needs must and Murchie will do a good job at 15. Had NDL been fit and on form I'd select him at 13 and Hogg at 15, but NDL will be rusty and it would be highly unfair to throw him straight in against Argentina.

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Post by BigGee Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:35 pm

Lets see when the team is out. My gut feeling still says Hogg at 15 and NDL at 13.

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Post by reallybored Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:38 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
His talents are much better served out wide.
Agreed but wouldn't mind him at 13 for this match due to lack of options.

I think we'll see a better performance against Pumas, the likes of Gray & Harley will add alot more punch up front.

Shame that Russell has gone home, wouldn't have minded him getting all four test matches under his belt.

Who's going to be captain?

Ford? Harley? Gray? Hogg?

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Post by IanBru Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:41 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:We should hold nothing back and go all out to win this game. The Boks game will just have to take care of itself, plus this is winnable, whereas the Boks game is not.
I agree completely.  OK 

Take each match as it comes. Coming in to this tour, I was looking as the first two matches as expected wins, the South Africa match as a crazy glue-induced hallucination, and the Argentina match as a genuine test of where we are now.

Playing Argentina in 2010 was like the last gasp of the old guard, playing the best they ever did - Chunk, Rory Lawson, Morrison, Southwell, Big Al, etc. What we'll learn on Friday is how we compare to that group of players. If we can get a win, in any circumstances (remember that the two 2010 wins were as ugly as Susan Boyle marriage prospects), particularly without a well-established coaching structure, then I'll be optimistic about our future, regardless of what happens against the Springboks.
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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:42 pm

Just been thinking, what makes an international standard Scotland player these days and a solid Scottish (SQ) club player?

Is it simply that if you play well enough to get a new contract at your Scottish club you get to play international rugby (barring the sevens)?

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Post by BigGee Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:42 pm

My money on Gray to captain the side. Did a good job with the A team and is definitely the coming man!

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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:44 pm

IanBru wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:We should hold nothing back and go all out to win this game. The Boks game will just have to take care of itself, plus this is winnable, whereas the Boks game is not.
(remember that the two 2010 wins were as ugly as Susan Boyle marriage prospects),

OI! You watch what you're saying about my SuBo  steam 

Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June - Page 4 Tumblr_inline_mlluiuVALT1qz4rgp

*She's got a better dummy than Sean Lamont - get her to Argentina now!

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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:49 pm

reallybored wrote:Who's going to be captain?

Ford? Harley? Gray? Hogg?

Not Hogg, not with his well documented attitude problems.......

Ford would be the conservative option, but I would be tempted by Jonny Gray.

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Post by BigGee Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:50 pm

Nematode wrote:Just been thinking, what makes an international standard Scotland player these days and a solid Scottish (SQ) club player?

Is it simply that if you play well enough to get a new contract at your Scottish club you get to play international rugby (barring the sevens)?

The demands of international rugby these days, the physicality, the amount of fixtures and the touring, not to mention the demands of the domestic season mean the inevitably more players will get capped than in the amateur era. Bear in mind as well that it is a 23 player squad these days, most of whom will get on the pitch.

Scotland has a very finite amount of professional rugby players, injuries in certain positions can hit us very hard. On the face of it, it is ridiculous that players who have hardly played professional rugby such as Bryce and Allen get capped but when you look at the numbers of players we have it is not so surprising.

Whether getting a cap in such circumstances means you are good enough to get one is certainly a more moot point, but yes pretty much any professional Scottish rugby player is never going to be to far away from the selectors thoughts, purely on the numbers game.

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Post by IanBru Wed 18 Jun 2014, 1:53 pm

BigGee wrote:My money on Gray to captain the side. Did a good job with the A team and is definitely the coming man!
Frankly, why the hell not?

He's a better leader than Ford, Lamont, Laidlaw (who are all likely to be in the team), and he just might be a better leader than Kelly Brows.

As the defaced motivational sign in my old school changing room used to say:
"Some are born great,
Some achieve greatness,
Some have greatness thrust up them."
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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 18 Jun 2014, 2:00 pm

IanBru wrote:As the defaced motivational sign in my old school changing room used to say:
"Some are born great,
Some achieve greatness,
Some have greatness thrust up them, and
Some are born rubbish and have to work their socks of to attain mediocrity."

Amended for SRU purposes.

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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 2:18 pm

It's really quite difficult to track how good Scotland are at the moment. Against America, you have to weigh up a pretty amateur-ish team (uni players in their squad) versus the extreme heat. Against Canada, a pretty good Canada side vs an almost Scotland 'A' pack. Throw in it being the end of the season (but Edinburgh have had a nice break) and a new coach, I don't know how much we can take so far.

Looking at NH average Scottish team, I can't really see Lawson, Low, Hamilton, Stroker, Low, Cowan, Lamont, Taylor getting into the world cup squad or at least the 23. We'll probably see Grant, Ford, Welsh, Gray, Gray, Harley, ?, Denton/Beattie, Laidlaw, 10, Visser, Scott, 13, Maitland, Hogg. Given the forward pack was almost completely different, how accurately can you rate this Scotland side? Their chances for Argentina?

I think what can be rated is the management. The fact that NDL is being brought in and Mark Bennett is still waiting for a cap calls for some inquiry! Why not play NDL at 7s and Bennett or even Vernon for SH!?

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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 3:18 pm



Quite an interesting interview here, worth a watch. Appears we've been prepping for Argentina for longer than thought...

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Post by RDW Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:18 pm

Gilchrist Captain!  Shocked 

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps, 5 tries, 1 penalty, 28 points

14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Nick De Luca (Biarritz) 41 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 13 caps, 1 try, 3 conversions, 1 penalty, 1 drop-goal, 17 points
9 Grayson Hart (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 34 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 75 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Geoff Cross (London Irish) 30 caps, 1 try, 5 points
4 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
5 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 6 caps, 1 try, 5 points CAPTAIN
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish) 2 caps
8 Kieran Low (London Irish) 3 caps

Substitutes

16 Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
18 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps
20 Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Tom Heathcote (Edinburgh Rugby) 3 caps
23 Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap

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Post by RDW Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:25 pm

Decent enough team to be competitive, but that is an incredibly inexperienced team. The back 5 of the pack and bench in particular.

Take out the front row and De Luca and Stuart Hogg is the most capped player!

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Post by Captain_Sensible Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:28 pm

Still no explanation of how we're going to have enough players for the SA match.

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Post by BigGee Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:33 pm

That's probably not far off the best team we could put out on the day. You could argue about second row or TH or whether Fusaro should start but they will all get on and we will see what they can do. I am actually happy enough to see Cowan carry on at open side, where he seemed to play quite well last week. He may switch over to No.8 when Fusaro comes on later. With him, Welsh, McArthur and Hamilton on the bench, I would not expect to see the tempo drop as the subs come on, quite the opposite in fact, it is a decent bench.

Gilchrist as captain, we all seemed to have missed that one, but he has been talked about as a leader at Edinburgh recently and I guess the continuity thing from the first half of the tour is important.

A lot of pressure on the midfield though. Happy with Hart getting his first cap, we definitely need a few more SH options. Weir and Horne have a lot to prove though, hopefully they won't try to hard to force things and we don't really know what kind of form NDL is in. Still it is a cap that he can't have been expecting, so who knows how he will react to being thrown a lifeline. Good back three though who will not be afraid to run the ball back hard at the Argies!

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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:33 pm

Good luck to Gilchrist - could this suggest he'll captain Edinburgh next season?

Think the pack looks stronger, good engine room in 4-6 that will carry and tackle well. Think NDL should go well, bringing some much needed attacking skills.

Also will be good to see Fife get a proper first cap after Wales.

Not a bad team.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:37 pm

Nematode wrote:It's really quite difficult to track how good Scotland are at the moment. Against America, you have to weigh up a pretty amateur-ish team (uni players in their squad) versus the extreme heat. Against Canada, a pretty good Canada side vs an almost Scotland 'A' pack. Throw in it being the end of the season (but Edinburgh have had a nice break) and a new coach, I don't know how much we can take so far.

Looking at NH average Scottish team, I can't really see Lawson, Low, Hamilton, Stroker, Low, Cowan, Lamont, Taylor getting into the world cup squad or at least the 23. We'll probably see Grant, Ford, Welsh, Gray, Gray, Harley, ?, Denton/Beattie, Laidlaw, 10, Visser, Scott, 13, Maitland, Hogg. Given the forward pack was almost completely different, how accurately can you rate this Scotland side? Their chances for Argentina?

I think what can be rated is the management. The fact that NDL is being brought in and Mark Bennett is still waiting for a cap calls for some inquiry! Why not play NDL at 7s and Bennett or even Vernon for SH!?

Yes, it does, wormy OK

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Post by BigGee Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:39 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Decent enough team to be competitive, but that is an incredibly inexperienced team.  The back 5 of the pack and bench in particular.

Take out the front row and De Luca and Stuart Hogg is the most capped player!

You could say the same about the Argentina team as well though, except they have played a couple of games together already, both lost but gave a decent show of themselves. Hard to say how they will react to that, will it have taken a lot out of them or is this the game that they have been targeting all along. For us, are the new arrivals going to breath some fresh life and vitality into the team, or just going to add to the disjointed nature of this tour.

Its got the making of a close, evenly matched game and one which is definitely winnable but very hard to call!

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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:41 pm

My only fear is this. Peter Horne has a point to prove - various people have said he is 'too small' or didn't offer enough, so he may be overly eager to try things. NDL has nothing to lose. Probably last international game he'll get so why be timid? Go out with a bang, show what Edinburgh lost. Could work in our favour though and NDL's experience might help Horne a bit.

Anyone know who'll be kicking? I assume Weir but if he gets replaced, Hogg or Heathcote?

Hopefully we'll see another few Hoggitizers to keep the scoreboard ticking over.


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Post by Nematode Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:44 pm

BTW for those worried about caps, put it this way. Lamont and NDL would be a partnership with 120+ caps. Matt Scott and Mark Bennett would have maybe 10-20. But you'd want in this game, 6N & RWC Scott and Bennett, or Dunbar. Caps don't define or restrict how good a player is at test level.



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Post by BigGee Wed 18 Jun 2014, 4:45 pm

Captain_Sensible wrote:Still no explanation of how we're going to have enough players for the SA match.

There will be some plans afoot but we won't here any more about them till after this game. Any extra players will be flying directly out to SA and not joining the squad in Argentina. It will also depend on whether there are any more injuries or not. I would imagine a few people have tickets booked and a few more are on standby but they won't want any more distractions and speculation before this game.

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Post by George Carlin Wed 18 Jun 2014, 6:27 pm

Gilchrist is lineout caller, which would have helped his case. Good luck to him. They've certainly given him plenty oF gametime at Edinburgh so Pappy and Vern have to see something worth investing in. We need to see some more dog, though. 

And not the poodle variety.
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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 18 Jun 2014, 9:54 pm

BigGee wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:Still no explanation of how we're going to have enough players for the SA match.

There will be some plans afoot but we won't here any more about them till after this game. Any extra players will be flying directly out to SA and not joining the squad in Argentina. It will also depend on whether there are any more injuries or not. I would imagine a few people have tickets booked and a few more are on standby but they won't want any more distractions and speculation before this game.

I would hope there are plans afoot as at least 4 of this 23 won't be available for South Africa and 3 of them are in the pack.

Slim pickings indeed for the last game of the tour.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 18 Jun 2014, 11:39 pm

We just need to make this game a mess, and do what Argentina usually do to other sides. Give not an inch in contact, make the ruck a living hell for the opposition scrum half and get Weir and Horne to steer us into the right parts of the field. Disrupt their rhythm at all costs. There's plenty work rate in that Scotland pack, so if we don't miss tackles they should find us hard to break down.

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Post by George Carlin Thu 19 Jun 2014, 7:48 am

Just read that Gilchrist will be the youngest Scotland captain since Gregor Townsend 18 years ago. Huge vote of confidence for him. He and Gray in the boiler room could be our combination for the next decade, so let's hope that they work well together.
 
I am not unhappy with the team. The whole point of this side is experimentation. Say what you want about Horne and De Luca, but what we should have are two good footballing centres who can distribute so I hope to actually see Maitland and Seymour touch the ball in this game.
 
Also, with Hart instead of Laidlaw playing, we should stop booting the bloody thing away and actually give Weir time to make decisions about how best to use the ball. Usually this means that Weir will throw at least one fatal intercept pass per game, but I'm hoping that we'll see that less and less as it's starting to get habitual.
 
Will Heathcote get at least 20 minutes? I hope so.
 
Is it reasonable to suppose Cowan and Low will communicate well when playing together? Surely it is.
 
Surprisingly serviceable bench, which should bring things back to control if it seems like a large Horlicks is imminent.
 
Looking forward to this. We really need to take this chance to pick up what should be relatively cheap IRB ranking points against a Pumas side only one place behind us in the rankings.
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Post by RDW Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:10 am

George Carlin wrote: 
Also, with Hart instead of Laidlaw playing, we should stop booting the bloody thing away and actually give Weir time to make decisions about how best to use the ball. Usually this means that Weir will throw at least one fatal intercept pass per game, but I'm hoping that we'll see that less and less as it's starting to get habitual.
 

Hold your horses there - Edinburgh's tactics this season involved a lot of box kicking and Hart did as much of it as Laidlaw ever did.

It is roll reversal this week though - in the last few games Laidlaw was the experienced man helping Russell get through the game, this week Weir is the (relatively) experienced man who will no doubt try to help Hart through his first start.

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Post by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:13 am

This possibly isn’t relevant for this topic, but figured I’d put it here rather than starting something new.

Fraser McKenzie, what’s happening with him?  He seems to be playing ok for the falcons (as far as I’m aware) and was hotly tipped (wasn’t he?) at one point to do well.  Whilst Lock isn’t a position we are short in, I believe he’s turned his hand at playing blindside on a few occasions.

Not saying he should necessarily be an option, but given we are so short of players, would it not make some sense to at least have called him up?



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Post by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:17 am

Seems the Scotsman has already covered my chat on McKenzie

Scotsman wrote:MOVING south made Fraser McKenzie a better player but worsened his chances of a Scotland call-up, he tells Iain Morrison


It’s a tiring time, for the mind, body and soul, fighting a relegation battle, and Scottish lock Fraser McKenzie is manning the barricades for the second time in as many seasons. Last time round the houses he was struggling to keep Sale Sharks’ nose above the waterline and this season he is fighting to maintain the Newcastle Falcons’ top-flight status.

This afternoon the Falcons, with a decent scattering of Scots including McKenzie, face London Irish in Reading where even a solitary bonus point will go some way to helping keep them safe. They were all but secure until Worcester Warriors re-discovered their fighting spirit to grasp their first win of the season against the Falcons a couple of weeks back.

“It was a strange match, there wasn’t much rugby played, that was the disappointing thing,” muses McKenzie. “We should have won if you look at the match stats. We had 100 per cent lineout, we had a dominant scrum but we just didn’t put away our chances. One missed tackle and they score in the corner.

“I am looking forward to the end of the season, enjoy the holidays and build for next season. I’ve gone from being in a relegation battle with Sale to being in a relegation battle with Newcastle. It’s definitely been tough.

“Any team coming up from the Championship is always going to struggle because Newcastle couldn’t start recruiting players until they knew they had promotion, by which time almost everyone has signed somewhere. I think that [Falcons director of rugby] Dean Richards’ plan was just to stay up this season and recruit for next year.

“The rugby in England is maybe not so different but there is more pressure on you because of the threat of relegation. There are no easy games – even when top teams are playing teams at the bottom of the league they will get a tough game – but I think after three years down here and a lot of rugby it has made me a better player.”

If he’s right the irony won’t be lost on McKenzie, who admits that he is further from the national squad now than he has been at any stage of his career. Just turned 26, he has time on his side and expresses an impressive determination to muscle his way back on to the selectors’ radar. A few years ago he was uppermost in their minds but slid back in the ranking after moving south to Manchester in 2011.

He was hot property off the back of a stand-out breakthrough season with Edinburgh that had pundits purring that it was a matter of “when” rather than “if” the big lock would join Richie Gray in the Scotland boiler house. In one Heineken Cup match against Northampton at Murrayfield the home side scored three first-half tries with McKenzie seemingly at the heart of every one, galloping about like a flanker and off-loading the ball like a Harlem Globetrotter. It was to prove the high water mark of his career to date.

“I had a good season with Edinburgh,” he recalls. “There was some turmoil in the SRU and I knew a couple of guys at Sale like [the then forwards coach] Stevie Scott and Steady [Graham Steadman] who was defence coach. You make these choices in life and I have no regrets, I’ve really enjoyed my three years in England and I’ve played a hell of a lot of rugby.

“If I had stayed at Edinburgh I might have been capped by now but that is still a goal of mine. At the moment I am being overlooked, I am probably as far from the Scotland squad as I have ever been, but that is just something that I will have to overcome.

“I play in a very difficult area where there is lots of competition. You have the established guys and then you have people like Jonny Gray and Grant Gilchrist coming through but it is down to me and my performances to ensure that I fight my way back. Who knows, one day I might end up back at Edinburgh. I’d like to return home at some stage.”

In terms of rivals, McKenzie may even face one today in the shape of the Exiles’ back-five utility player Kieran Low, who won one Scottish cap last autumn on the flank, although he is listed as a lock by London Irish.

McKenzie’s bid to elbow his way back into the reckoning may be helped by the change at the top at Murrayfield. The lock admits that he has only spoken to former Scotland coach Scott Johnson once in his life. He doesn’t really know the man and it is possible that Johnson doesn’t really know him. McKenzie may not recognise replacement Vern Cotter if he bumped into the Kiwi in the M&S underwear department but a new coach brings a fresh attitude, a clean slate and new hope for those that have found themselves left out.

With so many Scots either playing elsewhere or about to move – the World Cup pack could boast seven exiles, Johnnie Beattie, Kelly Brown, John Barclay, Jim Hamilton, Richie Gray, Euan Murray and Scott Lawson – it’s worth asking if the grass elsewhere really is greener.

Obviously there can be financial advantages to moving – the likes of Richie Gray (Castres) and Greig Laidlaw (Gloucester) are filling their boots and why not? But it’s not just the money that attracts players to France. As Beattie argues on this page, the whole French experience is as beguiling now as it ever was, although foreign rugby is not to everyone’s taste.

Mike Blair lasted one season at Brive, Scott MacLeod managed the same time in Japan, which is more understandable, and Chris Paterson barely got a toe hold in England’s Premiership with Gloucester before returning to Edinburgh somewhat chastened. Moving abroad can boost a player’s international career but all too often the opposite happens.

Back in 2007 Scott Murray, the most capped player in the history of Scottish rugby at the time, moved to France immediately after the Rugby World Cup that turned out to be the big fella’s swansong. Murray’s stellar international career was over at the age of 31. Fraser McKenzie’s has yet to start. The foreign grass may be greener but it’s not always tinged with blue.

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Post by George Carlin Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:32 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
George Carlin wrote: 
Also, with Hart instead of Laidlaw playing, we should stop booting the bloody thing away and actually give Weir time to make decisions about how best to use the ball. Usually this means that Weir will throw at least one fatal intercept pass per game, but I'm hoping that we'll see that less and less as it's starting to get habitual.
 

Hold your horses there - Edinburgh's tactics this season involved a lot of box kicking and Hart did as much of it as Laidlaw ever did.

It is roll reversal this week though - in the last few games Laidlaw was the experienced man helping Russell get through the game, this week Weir is the (relatively) experienced man who will no doubt try to help Hart through his first start.
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Post by RDW Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:33 am

Is that Uncle Dougie in his younger years?

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Post by BigGee Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:15 am

EWT Spoons wrote:This possibly isn’t relevant for this topic, but figured I’d put it here rather than starting something new.

Fraser McKenzie, what’s happening with him?  He seems to be playing ok for the falcons (as far as I’m aware) and was hotly tipped (wasn’t he?) at one point to do well.  Whilst Lock isn’t a position we are short in, I believe he’s turned his hand at playing blindside on a few occasions.

Not saying he should necessarily be an option, but given we are so short of players, would it not make some sense to at least have called him up?


Same problem as for all the oher english based players. he is contracted to Newcastle and would not have been available for the SA game which is when we will need bodies!

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:31 am

For me McKenzie is on the radar, but he isn't currently as good as Grayx2, Hamilton, Gilchrist or Swinson. McKenzie was always pretty athletic and covered the ground well, he also jumped well at the lineout. He should just focus on developing as best he can as a player. Hamilton may well retire after the WC and focus on Sarries, and Swinson is yet to replicate club form for Scotland. There's an openning there to get into the squad, and then he's one injury away from the bench. I don't think he'd let anyone down.

Personally I'd have him back at Edinburgh in a flash - he and Gilchrist could be a great combination for us.

Back to this game - they key tactical point for me is that we lack ball carriers, so slow ball is either going to need to be box kicked (with a proper chase) or sent to Weir to either kick for the corner (not out on the full) or hoist it high (with a proper chase, and preferrably without taking the man in the air). I don't think endless pick and drives is going to work here, and we'll just get knocked back and turned over. That won't get us control over the game. We need to recognise our weakness, adapt and work around it. I think our attacking chances will be limited, so we must grab them with both hands when we can. Weir must not kick away overlaps, or throw silly intercept passes, and we also need to vary this mis-pass tactic that is so in vogue at the moment. Once in a while it can work well, but if you do it every time the defence just skips the first line and nails the ball carrier well behind the advantage line.

This will be a scrap, make no mistake. We need to be prepared to go toe to toe with them when they have the ball, and play clever when we have it.

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Post by George Carlin Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:31 am

God, so much depends on your club side doesn't it.

I absolutely guarantee that Grant Shiells' profile will increase exponentially after even one year with a more fashionable and higher profile team like Bath.
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Post by Captain_Sensible Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:44 am

Is Shiells already capped?

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Post by RDW Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:45 am

A-team only.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:45 am

George Carlin wrote:God, so much depends on your club side doesn't it.

I absolutely guarantee that Grant Shiells' profile will increase exponentially after even one year with a more fashionable and higher profile team like Bath.

It certainly does on here. Alex Allan will be world class by the end of next season.....

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Post by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jun 2014, 9:56 am

BigGee wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:This possibly isn’t relevant for this topic, but figured I’d put it here rather than starting something new.

Fraser McKenzie, what’s happening with him?  He seems to be playing ok for the falcons (as far as I’m aware) and was hotly tipped (wasn’t he?) at one point to do well.  Whilst Lock isn’t a position we are short in, I believe he’s turned his hand at playing blindside on a few occasions.

Not saying he should necessarily be an option, but given we are so short of players, would it not make some sense to at least have called him up?


Same problem as for all the oher english based players. he is contracted to Newcastle and would not have been available for the SA game which is when we will need bodies!

Aye was more thinking for the Argentina game, or even the North America tour. We've dragged nearly every eligble player across, some of whom have barely played for their clubs, and yet McKenzie is kicking his heels at home.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 10:05 am

Problem is that he's playing in the one position where we were not short of options. Both Grays have had strong seasons, as has Gilchrist. Hamilton is a menace, and clearly rated by the Scotland coaches, and whilst Swinson will be disappointed by his lack of impact in the 6 Nations, he thoroughly deserved that call-up and it would be really harsh to ditch him now.

He should be patient, his time will come.

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Post by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jun 2014, 10:27 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Problem is that he's playing in the one position where we were not short of options. Both Grays have had strong seasons, as has Gilchrist. Hamilton is a menace, and clearly rated by the Scotland coaches, and whilst Swinson will be disappointed by his lack of impact in the 6 Nations, he thoroughly deserved that call-up and it would be really harsh to ditch him now.

He should be patient, his time will come.

Totally agree FES and yes we're basking in depth at Lock, but he could have filled in at blindside if neccessary (not ideal but he has played there before), or been injury cover and just come out with the team. Should probably point out now, I'm not his agent or related to him or anything, does seem like I'm really pushing for him to be included.


To come back to you chat from earlier, wonder if he could be tempted back to Edinburgh. He would link up well with Gilco and it would do his international chances no harm...Edinburgh could do with another 2nd rower...this is how rumours start isn't it.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 10:32 am

Edinburgh could use another two second rows, so signing McKenzie would be a great signing. I'd be interested in seeing in what ways he has improved since he left us.

I no fan of using locks at blindside - two very good locks in Lawes and Hines have been used in that way in recent times and it tends to end in tears in my opinion. Where he could have been used is instead of Richie Gray. RG put in a huge shift the other day, but he looks totally knackered. He's had a massive season at Castres following on from the Lions, and I think the summer off could have been of greater benefit to us ahead of the WC season, and in that case McKenzie could have covered.

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Thu 19 Jun 2014, 10:40 am

Have the AI fixtures been announced. I see they are selling the season passes and it looks like we are playing the All Blacks and Argentina this year at Murrayfield.

Are we only playing two or is there a 3rd game being played away from HQ?

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Post by SecretFly Thu 19 Jun 2014, 10:45 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:Have the AI fixtures been announced.  I see they are selling the season passes and it looks like we are playing the All Blacks and Argentina this year at Murrayfield.  

Are we only playing two or is there a 3rd game being played away from HQ?

Seems Tonga is on your itinerary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_end-of-year_rugby_union_internationals

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Jun 2014, 10:54 am

Tonga is going to be played away from Murrayfield - venue to be announced.

The season ticket gets you five games - 2xAIs and 3x6 Nations.

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