Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

Welshmushroom wrote:

Munchkin wrote:£19m seems like a lot of money? 

The thing is though, the Regions won't play players on CC's if this continues in stalemate, and they won't be able to afford to offer contracts themselves.

The point though Munchkin without that 4.5 million each from the Union how can the Scarlets & Dragons even pay their players.  I cant see any player accepting to continue their contracts with the regions if suddenly cashflow becomes an issue.  I would have thought they would be in breach straight away thus allowing the players to leave.  So you wouldn't just see 30 players being signed by the WRU.  More likely is they would sign 90-100 on that 19 million and probably leave everyone else jobless and take the best coaches and staff.  Either way that leaves a lot of players without jobs not to mention a whole bunch of non welsh players who almost certainly wouldn't be offered deals by the WRU.  

If you allow that 2 mill will probably go on staff that still leaves 17mill for 100 players thus working out an average of 170K per year per player.  Stands to reason while the best probably would get more there is no way the WRU will be shelling out those sorts of contracts for players outside the initial 30 man welsh squad.  It does mean that the middle of the road players would be likely to leave if they don't feel the offers are competitive from the WRU.  I don't think funding 3 sides would be an issue for the WRU.  I doubt they would stretch it to 4 teams though as the extra 30-40 players would probably put to much drain on their resources.

I thought you were talking about the four Regions remaining. I think you're right. If it comes to setting up new Regions, then the WRU would probably favour three over four. Even then it would be financially tight. I think the WRU is contractually obligated to nominate four teams in the G12 though (G12! My first use on forums   ), so they would have to come to an agreement with the other Unions first.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The union only put in under 1m to each, TV puts the rest in and I'm sure we can get a TV deal sorted

My understanding is the TV deals are specifically relating to tournament participation. I cant see the Regions getting a dime if they are thrown out of Europe and the Pro 12. Basically I just cant see how the regional owners can continue on their own. The IRB just wont back them as this will set a precedent so I would expect a blanket ban on those 4 sides.

I also understand that the WRU can actually replace their nominations regardless in these tournaments and I would imagine therefore this money would go to the new franchises which is why the WRU collect the TV deal money and redistribute it to the regions. Basically without a court intervention they are screwed and even then they are screwed because the IRB still wont bring them into the fold leaving the regions with a morale court victory but still no one to play. How long then would the TV deals last especially given most TV contracts have specific litigations regarding match quantities. The only way round that is if they play themselves 8 times each a season. Cant see the fans warming to that either....

Munchkin wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Munchkin wrote:£19m seems like a lot of money? 

The thing is though, the Regions won't play players on CC's if this continues in stalemate, and they won't be able to afford to offer contracts themselves.

The point though Munchkin without that 4.5 million each from the Union how can the Scarlets & Dragons even pay their players.  I cant see any player accepting to continue their contracts with the regions if suddenly cashflow becomes an issue.  I would have thought they would be in breach straight away thus allowing the players to leave.  So you wouldn't just see 30 players being signed by the WRU.  More likely is they would sign 90-100 on that 19 million and probably leave everyone else jobless and take the best coaches and staff.  Either way that leaves a lot of players without jobs not to mention a whole bunch of non welsh players who almost certainly wouldn't be offered deals by the WRU.  

If you allow that 2 mill will probably go on staff that still leaves 17mill for 100 players thus working out an average of 170K per year per player.  Stands to reason while the best probably would get more there is no way the WRU will be shelling out those sorts of contracts for players outside the initial 30 man welsh squad.  It does mean that the middle of the road players would be likely to leave if they don't feel the offers are competitive from the WRU.  I don't think funding 3 sides would be an issue for the WRU.  I doubt they would stretch it to 4 teams though as the extra 30-40 players would probably put to much drain on their resources.

I thought you were talking about the four Regions remaining. I think you're right. If it comes to setting up new Regions, then the WRU would probably favour three over four. Even then it would be financially tight. I think the WRU is contractually obligated to nominate four teams in the G12 though (G12! My first use on forums   ), so they would have to come to an agreement with the other Unions first.

I suspect they would be tempted to contract the 4th region into a total development team to make sure it does not suffer any contractual liabilities with the Pro 12 and funding. That said it would be like a Welsh Connacht of the 90's with no real chance of winning anything. Wouldn't surprise me if they moved that side to North Wales.

Can we be thrown out of Europe? I though RRW were signatories.

I don't think as far as the competition organisers go. But if the IRB back the WRU sanction it will be against IRB regulation for any member union playing against them. I know it sounds drastic but given the Irish, English, French, Scottish & Italians wont stand against an IRB ruling of this nature as it would potentially exclude them if they go ahead regardless. I don't see anyone actually letting them play in the Champions Cup.

Bottom line they may still get their money but I cant see them actually playing in the Champions Cup next year under the above rules.

Well, the rules are the Welsh teams qualify via the Pro12. They may be signatories but if the rules have already been set up they probably won't be able to change it. Unless the specific teams are named rather than the league (they will retain their board seat of course, just no teams)

This has been coming a long time. I said back when Roger Lewis said on the Beeb (paraphrasing) no agreement no regions that the WRU had the upper hand and that they would try to get central contracts. They hold the financial levers of international and sponsorship cash. The regions as ever are dependent on the benefactors. I believe that the WRU never wanted the benefactors on board but couldnt do without them early on. Now they can. All they need to do is choke the regions out of existence.

All in all welsh grassroots rugby has taken a kicking from this debacle. I believe that if welsh rugby now goes through a damaging, contentious change without consensus it will take years to repair the damage if at all. I dont believe the regions are trying to sell up - I think they're making a point. What I do think will happen is that they will suffer a long slow death.

I dont think that either side has covered itself in glory. Ultimately if this goes nuclear then Welsh rugby will be set back years.

Very sad times.

You can't spell Welshmushroom without W.R.U.

A related thought. The recent EGM showed us the great divide in welsh rugby. The clubs in general were never happy about a few clubs at the top becoming "regions." It came as no surprise that their representatives gave the WRU executive a big vote in their favour. Regional supporters however were spitting feathers. The majority of clubs will be happy to see the current arrangement dissolved. I cant imagine they'll be unhappy to have new WRU regions.

If it does come about, it will have rent welsh rugby in two and thousands of supporters will be alienated. It seems to me that the WRU think this is a price worth paying. Funnily enough I dont. I think the game in Wales will be hobbled badly and it will take years to rebuild popular support.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Can we be thrown out of Europe?  I though RRW were signatories.

Yep we are and d'you know what, if Roger was displaced this evening, I reckon we'd have a deal before breakfast tomorrow.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Can we be thrown out of Europe?  I though RRW were signatories.

Yep we are and d'you know what, if Roger was displaced this evening, I reckon we'd have a deal before breakfast tomorrow.

I missed the IF, and just went to beeb and google to find the bye bye roger press release

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:A related thought. The recent EGM showed us the great divide in welsh rugby. The clubs in general were never happy about a few clubs at the top becoming "regions." It came as no surprise that their representatives gave the WRU executive a big vote in their favour. Regional supporters however were spitting feathers. The majority of clubs will be happy to see the current arrangement dissolved. I cant imagine they'll be unhappy to have new WRU regions.

If it does come about, it will have rent welsh rugby in two and thousands of supporters will be alienated. It seems to me that the WRU think this is a price worth paying. Funnily enough I dont. I think the game in Wales will be hobbled badly and it will take years to rebuild popular support.

Showed the little clubs don't do financials either, but they do like their free sandwiches and salads in the oven.

Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

Cardiff Dave wrote:You can't spell Welshmushroom without W.R.U.

You'd have to rearrange the letters though lol

In order its WUR - ironically that might be a pun on the nearest pro team ill be able to go and see.

Welsh regions offer WRU chance to take them over

Wales' four regions have offered the Welsh Rugby Union the chance to take them over and want a deal to end their impasse by 18 July.

The offer was made in a letter from regions chairmen Peter Thomas (Blues), Martyn Hazell (Dragons), Roger Blyth (Ospreys) and Nigel Short (Scarlets).

In extreme circumstances the regions may even be forced to offload players.

They stated if a deal is not done: "We will have to scale back on our playing costs and development."

It is unlikely that the WRU would accept the offer to take control of the game's professional tier because of the financial state of the regions.

In the letter the chairmen stated: "Together we can be strong, but in the disharmony that currently prevails, we will ultimately all be weak.

"We cannot continue in this fashion any longer.
"The alternative, which we have tabled before, but which you have always rejected, is that you [the WRU] makes a fair offer to take over the regions if you believe you could make a better job of running the same, although this is something you have refused to countenance previously.

"If it is of attraction, then it would need to be concluded rapidly."

Short, Thomas, Blyth and Hazell added: "There will be clear consequences for the WRU in respect of the retention of Welsh players, with regard to release periods and additional international fixtures.

"For the regions we will have to scale back on our playing costs and development accordingly with the financial consequences that will have for us.

"Unfortunately that is the harsh reality of the situation we find ourselves in and the outcome of the existing relationship we feel we have with the WRU."

The last participation agreement between the WRU and Regional Rugby Wales (RRW) ended on 30 June, leaving the regions believing they face a combined £6.7m shortfall next season.

That contract guaranteed the release of players for Wales coach Warren Gatland's two-week squad training camps ahead of November games, the Six Nations and for the fourth autumn Test which Wales regularly stage outside the approved International Rugby Board window.

If a new deal is not finalised the regions could ensure Wales face South Africa on 29 November without any regional players.

The regions would also withhold players from Wales Sevens duty.

In the letter to WRU chief executive Lewis and chairman Pickering, Thomas, Blyth, Short and Hazell said: "We have been negotiating with the WRU for a considerable period.
"But we have come to the conclusion that... the harsh reality is that the WRU has no interest in concluding negotiations with the regions and entering into a long-term agreement for the betterment of Welsh rugby."

The quartet go on to say:

• Despite some reservations they have accepted - for the first time - the concept of dual national contracts for the nation's Test stars.

• On the subject of the regions' funding, that a failure to strike a deal would mean them having to live within their means and become less competitive against Pro12 and European rivals.

• The relationship between the WRU and "its principal clubs" is a "national disgrace" and has left Welsh rugby "not held in high esteem".

• That "the true objective of the WRU is actually to starve the regions to the point of financial ruin".

• The WRU and regions' goals "are not incompatible"

• Any agreement must mean a partnership, not an "employer/employee or master/slave" relationship.

• For developing players for Wales the regions should be "adequately rewarded".

The chairmen went on: "At every point when we think we have made progress and reached a commercial outcome, we are subsequently frustrated by the constant shifts and manipulation in the WRU position.

"This has been amply demonstrated on any number of occasions."

In the letter, the four chairmen go on to claim they have been left with no option but to suggest their current course of action.

"This is not meant as a threat nor is it a decision that has been taken lightly, but rather as a position in respect of which we have no alternative," they stated.

"That will have severe and dramatic consequences for all of us and in respect of which there will be no going back."

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:You can't spell Welshmushroom without W.R.U.

You'd have to rearrange the letters though lol

In order its WUR - ironically that might be a pun on the nearest pro team ill be able to go and see.

Nah, I got it right I reckon.

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

Providing we are allowed to participate in the pro12 and Europe, then we can botch together a TV deal, prob for less. And we should be able to survive, but as a shodow of ourselves. I think if the regions stay united this will prob be the outcome.

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

Back to the EGM are we?

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Especially when ticket prices have just been bumped up.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Surely if the Regions don't sign the agreement then the WRU have access to all players? If they do sign, but without the WRU financial support, then do the WRU really need the 4th AI?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Yeah, but weigh it up. Who do you reckon is in the weaker position? If the WRU is determined enough, this could be their moment to kill off RRW. I reckon their stalling talks to try to get the benefactors to walk away - cheaper see.

The regions can definitely hold on to their players - they're not obliged to release .... that's if they can afford to keep them.

I really hope this doesnt go nuclear. My hopes of a resolution are pretty much dead right now.

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Surely if the Regions don't sign the agreement then the WRU have access to all players? If they do sign, but without the WRU financial support, then do the WRU really need the 4th AI?

What agreement?
The really irritating 4th AI is outside of the recognised IRB window meaning the players "employed" by their regions will not be released for this game which we shouldn't have anyway.
Rog loves his 4th AI.

Dai, I've heard Mr Lewis say the 4th AI is purely to cover the money they give the regions for their allowing the 4th AI.  And the two weeks pre AIs / 6Ns, oh and two weeks during the 6Ns too.  So we should suffer during the AIs and 6Ns due to being unable to be the best prepared side anymore.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Yeah, but weigh it up. Who do you reckon is in the weaker position? If the WRU is determined enough, this could be their moment to kill off RRW. I reckon their stalling talks to try to get the benefactors to walk away - cheaper see.

The regions can definitely hold on to their players -  they're not obliged to release .... that's if they can afford to keep them.

I really hope this doesnt go nuclear. My hopes of a resolution are pretty much dead right now.

I'll say it again, "Now RRW! Now's your time!"
Advance on all fronts, go for the coup de grace and tell us why, while you're doing it warts an all.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Dai, I've heard Mr Lewis say the 4th AI is purely to cover the money they give the regions for their allowing the 4th AI.  And the two weeks pre AIs / 6Ns, oh and two weeks during the 6Ns too.  So we should suffer during the AIs and 6Ns due to being unable to be the best prepared side anymore.

Gareth Davies, Drags CEO (Welshmushroom's supposed team LOL) speaks;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU0lO0ZqUGM

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Yeah, but weigh it up. Who do you reckon is in the weaker position? If the WRU is determined enough, this could be their moment to kill off RRW. I reckon their stalling talks to try to get the benefactors to walk away - cheaper see.

The regions can definitely hold on to their players -  they're not obliged to release .... that's if they can afford to keep them.

I really hope this doesnt go nuclear. My hopes of a resolution are pretty much dead right now.

I'll say it again, "Now RRW! Now's your time!"
Advance on all fronts, go for the coup de grace and tell us why, while you're doing it warts an all.

I'm really not as optimistic that RRW can survive this. If they say no agreement they will lose a significant but not insurmountable sum initially. One season down the line they could find they have no league to play in swiftly followed by no european competition. They can go to court but the WRU are not obliged to nominate them for the Pro12. No Pro12=deep doo doo. Regions go bust, players released, WRU form new regions. If you can tell me how this could be surmounted by RRW if the WRU were to follow this course of action then perhaps I could share your optimism.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Surely if the Regions don't sign the agreement then the WRU have access to all players? If they do sign, but without the WRU financial support, then do the WRU really need the 4th AI?

What agreement?  
The really irritating 4th AI is outside of the recognised IRB window meaning the players "employed" by their regions will not be released for this game which we shouldn't have anyway.
Rog loves his 4th AI.

The RPA. If the Regions don't sign the RPA then how can they prevent their players from moving on, and playing in whatever Union competition? The players are contracted as Rugby Union players, and so, I would think, any Regional contract would become meaningless as the regions would no longer represent Rugby Union. 

...... I think.

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Surely if the Regions don't sign the agreement then the WRU have access to all players? If they do sign, but without the WRU financial support, then do the WRU really need the 4th AI?

What agreement?  
The really irritating 4th AI is outside of the recognised IRB window meaning the players "employed" by their regions will not be released for this game which we shouldn't have anyway.
Rog loves his 4th AI.

The RPA. If the Regions don't sign the RPA then how can they prevent their players from moving on, and playing in whatever Union competition? The players are contracted as Rugby Union players, and so, I would think, any Regional contract would become meaningless as the regions would no longer represent Rugby Union. 

...... I think.

Not so. They remain affiliated to the WRU via the clubs that own them. it will simply be the case that the clubs can enforce IRB release rules and refuse to do so outside the usual IRB window once any other extra agreements are expired. No different to PRL then. Not that I think Roger T Dodger particularly cares about that.

Hmmm... I'm still not convinced. The PRL are very much Rugby Union as they have a contract with their home nation Union - RFU. If the Regions have no contract with their home nation Union - WRU, then they will cease to represent Rugby Union, they will no longer be under the umbrella of IRB, and the players contracts that they have are contracted to play Rugby Union/IRB.

Well, that's what I think at this point in time anyway.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Yeah, but weigh it up. Who do you reckon is in the weaker position? If the WRU is determined enough, this could be their moment to kill off RRW. I reckon their stalling talks to try to get the benefactors to walk away - cheaper see.

The regions can definitely hold on to their players -  they're not obliged to release .... that's if they can afford to keep them.

I really hope this doesnt go nuclear. My hopes of a resolution are pretty much dead right now.

I'll say it again, "Now RRW! Now's your time!"
Advance on all fronts, go for the coup de grace and tell us why, while you're doing it warts an all.

I'm really not as optimistic that RRW can survive this. If they say no agreement they will lose a significant but not insurmountable sum initially. One season down the line they could find they have no league to play in swiftly followed by no european competition. They can go to court but the WRU are not obliged to nominate them for the Pro12. No Pro12=deep doo doo. Regions go bust, players released, WRU form new regions. If you can tell me how this could be surmounted by RRW if the WRU were to follow this course of action then perhaps I could share your optimism.

I think you're thinking way too far ahead. As for going to court i'd rather not go there, but for me the 4 pro sides only ever wanted a fair deal or even the chance to discuss one. Something doesn't smell right if you ask me and that's been my view for a long time.

Munchkin wrote:Hmmm... I'm still not convinced. The PRL are very much Rugby Union as the have a contract with their home nation Union - RFU. If the Regions have no contract with their home nation Union - WRU, then they will cease to be represent Rugby Union, the will no longer be under the umbrella of IRB, and the players contracts that they have are contracted to play Rugby Union.

Well, that's what I think at this point in time anyway.

I dont know what you're thinking of here. The regions will be the WRU's nominated teams for the Pro12 for the coming season (unless the WRU are totally ruthless) - their players will continue to be registered and insured with the WRU - all this regardless of a participation agreement. Normal IRB rules apply hence just like in the PRL. The regions aren't all of a sudden outside of Rugby Union at all. It's still Llanelli RFC (affiliated member of the WRU) etc in reality. As for their contracts - they are contracts of employment with their employers. Their participation in the sport doesnt depend on that, rather their employers affiliation with the sports governing body. The PA has nothing to do with that.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Yeah, but weigh it up. Who do you reckon is in the weaker position? If the WRU is determined enough, this could be their moment to kill off RRW. I reckon their stalling talks to try to get the benefactors to walk away - cheaper see.

The regions can definitely hold on to their players -  they're not obliged to release .... that's if they can afford to keep them.

I really hope this doesnt go nuclear. My hopes of a resolution are pretty much dead right now.

I'll say it again, "Now RRW! Now's your time!"
Advance on all fronts, go for the coup de grace and tell us why, while you're doing it warts an all.

I'm really not as optimistic that RRW can survive this. If they say no agreement they will lose a significant but not insurmountable sum initially. One season down the line they could find they have no league to play in swiftly followed by no european competition. They can go to court but the WRU are not obliged to nominate them for the Pro12. No Pro12=deep doo doo. Regions go bust, players released, WRU form new regions. If you can tell me how this could be surmounted by RRW if the WRU were to follow this course of action then perhaps I could share your optimism.

I think you're thinking way too far ahead. As for going to court i'd rather not go there, but for me the 4 pro sides only ever wanted a fair deal or even the chance to discuss one. Something doesn't smell right if you ask me and that's been my view for a long time.

I often get accused of that. I'm an arrogant   but usually a correct arrogant    

Anyway, I agree with the rest of your comment. I'm just really pessimistic as the politics of this just seem too obvious to me. WRU are acting in a very tactical and strategic fashion. They are suffocating the regions - presumably because they want control over the pro game without inheriting their debts or buying out the money men.

To quote Skunk Anansie "Yes its   political. Everything's political!"

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Hmmm... I'm still not convinced. The PRL are very much Rugby Union as the have a contract with their home nation Union - RFU. If the Regions have no contract with their home nation Union - WRU, then they will cease to be represent Rugby Union, the will no longer be under the umbrella of IRB, and the players contracts that they have are contracted to play Rugby Union.

Well, that's what I think at this point in time anyway.

I dont know what you're thinking of here. The regions will be the WRU's nominated teams for the Pro12 for the coming season (unless the WRU are totally ruthless) - their players will continue to be registered and insured with the WRU - all this regardless of a participation agreement. Normal IRB rules apply hence just like in the PRL. The regions aren't all of a sudden outside of Rugby Union at all. It's still Llanelli RFC (affiliated member of the WRU) etc in reality. As for their contracts - they are contracts of employment with their employers. Their participation in the sport doesnt depend on that, rather their employers affiliation with the sports governing body. The PA has nothing to do with that.

But then if both parties agree to remain in G12 then some sort of contract will be signed. No? If not then how are they covered? I'm not trying to be awkward, just attempting to straighten a crooked path.

P.s I tend to start at worst case scenario, and work my way up. So, yes, I was looking at the nuclear option of WRU ditching the Regions right away.

...I don't really think that's going to happen though.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Yeah, but weigh it up. Who do you reckon is in the weaker position? If the WRU is determined enough, this could be their moment to kill off RRW. I reckon their stalling talks to try to get the benefactors to walk away - cheaper see.

The regions can definitely hold on to their players -  they're not obliged to release .... that's if they can afford to keep them.

I really hope this doesnt go nuclear. My hopes of a resolution are pretty much dead right now.

I'll say it again, "Now RRW! Now's your time!"
Advance on all fronts, go for the coup de grace and tell us why, while you're doing it warts an all.

The only way they can advance on all fronts, without WRU support, is if they can inspire all the rugby fans in their respective regions to get behind them. Blues need Pontypridd fans etc. to survive. They all need to be breaking the 12k mark minimum for every game, and not at reduced rates either.

It's not looking good. What the Irish provinces get in attendance/merchandising other revenue etc. is not enough.

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Hmmm... I'm still not convinced. The PRL are very much Rugby Union as the have a contract with their home nation Union - RFU. If the Regions have no contract with their home nation Union - WRU, then they will cease to be represent Rugby Union, the will no longer be under the umbrella of IRB, and the players contracts that they have are contracted to play Rugby Union.

Well, that's what I think at this point in time anyway.

I dont know what you're thinking of here. The regions will be the WRU's nominated teams for the Pro12 for the coming season (unless the WRU are totally ruthless) - their players will continue to be registered and insured with the WRU - all this regardless of a participation agreement. Normal IRB rules apply hence just like in the PRL. The regions aren't all of a sudden outside of Rugby Union at all. It's still Llanelli RFC (affiliated member of the WRU) etc in reality. As for their contracts - they are contracts of employment with their employers. Their participation in the sport doesnt depend on that, rather their employers affiliation with the sports governing body. The PA has nothing to do with that.

But then if both parties agree to remain in G12 then some sort of contract will be signed. No? If not then how are they covered? I'm not trying to be awkward, just attempting to straighten a crooked path.

How do you mean covered? The WRU have to nominate four teams for the Pro12. They could be totally brutal and not nominate the regions for this september (or rescind) but I cant see them doing that just yet. If the regions play they're entitled to a share of sponsorship etc and there's jack the WRU can do to deprive them of that. All that will happen initially is that the regions will lose some hundreds of thousands each and stick their fingers up to the WRU come the 4th AI. They will also have to tighten belts somewhat. Other than that, no changes to player registrations etc so business as normal otherwise .... except with 12 months to prepare will the WRU nominate the current regions for 2015/16. Thats when the poopie hits the fan.

Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

Notch wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Notch wrote:Is it possible for the regions to actually survive as independent businesses? I mean, do the financials add up? I appreciate they feel they are underfunded in comparison to other sides in the Pro12 but can they survive with nothing from their union?

I reckon they'll hobble on for a year in that scenario and then the WRU will pull the rug (their nomination into the Pro12). They could try to keep in the RCC on the basis of having qualified the previous year at that point but I cant see how they'll keep going without fixtures (could they arrange some anglo-welsh? dubious at best) and the following year they'd lose RCC without a means to qualify. That's what I mean by a long drawn out death. Money dropping, gradually shoved out of competitions - things are looking pretty precarious.

The 4th AI cash cow could be a problem for Rog though in the meantime.

Yeah, but weigh it up. Who do you reckon is in the weaker position? If the WRU is determined enough, this could be their moment to kill off RRW. I reckon their stalling talks to try to get the benefactors to walk away - cheaper see.

The regions can definitely hold on to their players -  they're not obliged to release .... that's if they can afford to keep them.

I really hope this doesnt go nuclear. My hopes of a resolution are pretty much dead right now.

I'll say it again, "Now RRW! Now's your time!"
Advance on all fronts, go for the coup de grace and tell us why, while you're doing it warts an all.

The only way they can advance on all fronts, without WRU support, is if they can inspire all the rugby fans in their respective regions to get behind them. Blues need Pontypridd fans etc. to survive. They all need to be breaking the 12k mark minimum for every game, and not at reduced rates either.

It's not looking good. What the Irish provinces get in attendance/merchandising other revenue etc. is not enough.

I'll rephrase for you; "Now Maitland! Now's your time!". Best google it to get my drift.
Need rid of this charlaton dictator non rugby person individual asap.
Cardiff Blues don't need Ponty FFS. They could burst BTCAP by just being Cardiff, given the chance.
Getting rid of pseudo regionalism is next on the agenda btw then we can really start moving forward in the right direction, eh Pete?
I get the vibes that Mr Holland has been looking in his mirror for a while now.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

Same thing mate.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

Same thing mate.

Do I really have to explain that one for you?  

I'm talking about the Scarlets dropping out of top flight rugby for political reasons as opposed to rugby ones.

I've followed the Scarlets since I was a toddler. I dont need a Kerdiffian telling me who they are   

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Hmmm... I'm still not convinced. The PRL are very much Rugby Union as the have a contract with their home nation Union - RFU. If the Regions have no contract with their home nation Union - WRU, then they will cease to be represent Rugby Union, the will no longer be under the umbrella of IRB, and the players contracts that they have are contracted to play Rugby Union.

Well, that's what I think at this point in time anyway.

I dont know what you're thinking of here. The regions will be the WRU's nominated teams for the Pro12 for the coming season (unless the WRU are totally ruthless) - their players will continue to be registered and insured with the WRU - all this regardless of a participation agreement. Normal IRB rules apply hence just like in the PRL. The regions aren't all of a sudden outside of Rugby Union at all. It's still Llanelli RFC (affiliated member of the WRU) etc in reality. As for their contracts - they are contracts of employment with their employers. Their participation in the sport doesnt depend on that, rather their employers affiliation with the sports governing body. The PA has nothing to do with that.

But then if both parties agree to remain in G12 then some sort of contract will be signed. No? If not then how are they covered? I'm not trying to be awkward, just attempting to straighten a crooked path.

How do you mean covered? The WRU have to nominate four teams for the Pro12. They could be totally brutal and not nominate the regions for this september (or rescind) but I cant see them doing that just yet. If the regions play they're entitled to a share of sponsorship etc and there's jack the WRU can do to deprive them of that. All that will happen initially is that the regions will lose  some hundreds of thousands each and stick their fingers up to the WRU come the 4th AI. They will also have to tighten belts somewhat. Other than that, no changes to player registrations etc so business as normal otherwise .... except with 12 months to prepare will the WRU nominate the current regions for 2015/16. Thats when the poopie hits the fan.

Covered in the sense of actually being affiliated to their Union - WRU. Here's a couple of IRB regualtions that might be relevant:

4.5.1 Subject to Regulation 4.5.10:
(a) a Player may receive Material Benefit from a Union;
(b) a Union may permit any Rugby Body or Club in membership of that
Union to provide Material Benefit to any Player;
(c) any Player receiving Material Benefit from a Union, Rugby Body or
Club must have in place a written agreement with such Union, Rugby
Body or Club.



4.9.1 No Union, Rugby Body, Club, Agent or any other Person or entity,
whether acting on its own account or on behalf of any third party, shall
induce or attempt to induce any Contract Player or other Person who has a
written agreement with a Union, Rugby Body or Club to leave his Union,
Rugby Body or Club unless the prior written consent of that Union, Rugby
Body or Club has been obtained.


My point, looking at the worst case scenario, is what legal right would the Regions have to prevent players from moving/playing should the Regions themselves cease to represent WRU? I'm specifically talking about player contracts, and IRB regulations, and in the event that WRU and RRW divorce.

Anywho, as stated, it isn't very likely to come to that. At least not this year.....hopefully.

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Hmmm... I'm still not convinced. The PRL are very much Rugby Union as the have a contract with their home nation Union - RFU. If the Regions have no contract with their home nation Union - WRU, then they will cease to be represent Rugby Union, the will no longer be under the umbrella of IRB, and the players contracts that they have are contracted to play Rugby Union.

Well, that's what I think at this point in time anyway.

I dont know what you're thinking of here. The regions will be the WRU's nominated teams for the Pro12 for the coming season (unless the WRU are totally ruthless) - their players will continue to be registered and insured with the WRU - all this regardless of a participation agreement. Normal IRB rules apply hence just like in the PRL. The regions aren't all of a sudden outside of Rugby Union at all. It's still Llanelli RFC (affiliated member of the WRU) etc in reality. As for their contracts - they are contracts of employment with their employers. Their participation in the sport doesnt depend on that, rather their employers affiliation with the sports governing body. The PA has nothing to do with that.

But then if both parties agree to remain in G12 then some sort of contract will be signed. No? If not then how are they covered? I'm not trying to be awkward, just attempting to straighten a crooked path.

How do you mean covered? The WRU have to nominate four teams for the Pro12. They could be totally brutal and not nominate the regions for this september (or rescind) but I cant see them doing that just yet. If the regions play they're entitled to a share of sponsorship etc and there's jack the WRU can do to deprive them of that. All that will happen initially is that the regions will lose  some hundreds of thousands each and stick their fingers up to the WRU come the 4th AI. They will also have to tighten belts somewhat. Other than that, no changes to player registrations etc so business as normal otherwise .... except with 12 months to prepare will the WRU nominate the current regions for 2015/16. Thats when the poopie hits the fan.

Covered in the sense of actually being affiliated to their Union - WRU. Here's a couple of IRB regualtions that might be relevant:

4.5.1 Subject to Regulation 4.5.10:
(a) a Player may receive Material Benefit from a Union;
(b) a Union may permit any Rugby Body or Club in membership of that
Union to provide Material Benefit to any Player;
(c) any Player receiving Material Benefit from a Union, Rugby Body or
Club must have in place a written agreement with such Union, Rugby
Body or Club.



4.9.1 No Union, Rugby Body, Club, Agent or any other Person or entity,
whether acting on its own account or on behalf of any third party, shall
induce or attempt to induce any Contract Player or other Person who has a
written agreement with a Union, Rugby Body or Club to leave his Union,
Rugby Body or Club unless the prior written consent of that Union, Rugby
Body or Club has been obtained.


My point, looking at the worst case scenario, is what legal right would the Regions have to prevent players from moving/playing should the Regions themselves cease to represent WRU? I'm specifically talking about player contracts, and IRB regulations, and in the event that WRU and RRW divorce.

Anywho, as stated, it isn't very likely to come to that. At least not this year.....hopefully.

Well, as I said earlier, it's Llanelli RFC that operates "The Scarlets" and the players contracts are held by them. Llanelli RFC will still be an affiliate member of the WRU barring a massive divorce ala rugby league and therefore, as I said earlier, normal IRB player release rules apply. I.e. the players will be released for the 6N and any other IRB sanctioned tests. RRW teams, as any others, will only be able to refuse release for tests outside those sanctioned windows.

I think the point you're missing is that the regions are still affiliated to the WRU despite the PA having expired. The PA was an extra agreement for which the regions were compensated. Nobody has left any rugby union yet nor has there been any talk of it since the anglo welsh joke, cough, ahem, proposal.

Surely the regs you quoted state that the union can't get players out of their contracts without the Regions' say so.

Not having an agreement with the union doesn't stop them being rugby union teams. It may well stop them from being in any competitions but a union can't just destroy a teams just because they feel like it.

And if they stop the teams from competing in pro12 they'll have to be damn sure of themselves legally. They made the regions form in the first place. They encouraged investment in them. Now they want to scupper them because they won't go above and beyond the IRB regs? That's sounds very challengeable to me (although I'd imagine it taken more than a season to sort out so not much good.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

The "clubs" did though at the recent and now infamous EGM aka shambles, where Gerald gave a lovely speech and shook Moffetts hand on his way out while Rog and Pickering looked on, dazzled.
Pretty obvious what needs to happen isn't it?

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

Same thing mate.

Do I really have to explain that one for you?  

I'm talking about the Scarlets dropping out of top flight rugby for political reasons as opposed to rugby ones.

I've followed the Scarlets since I was a toddler. I dont need a Kerdiffian telling me who they are   

Kerdiffian born and bred, I consider myself admonished by a proper Terk.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

The "clubs" did though at the recent and now infamous EGM aka shambles, where Gerald gave a lovely speech and shook Moffetts hand on his way out while Rog and Pickering looked on, dazzled.
Pretty obvious what needs to happen isn't it?

Yes, but dont pretend for a moment that Cardiff, Llanelli et al are above this or whiter than white in any way. The administration of rugby in Wales has been shocking on all fronts for decades upon decades. Anyone who has tried to make changes has been left out in the cold - Jiffy and Carwyn are two prime examples of Scarlets who were ignored by the WRU. Look at the financial mismanagement of our clubs. Heavily dependent on benefactors from the outset of professionalism in 95. We are just starting to get to grips with the need to be professional off the pitch as well as on it - and we're still blydi amateurs on that front.

Whole scale restructuring needed across the board .... and that may mean that people like ourselves may have to give up some precious notions about our clubs as well as see a long hoped for reform of the WRU if welsh rugby is to thrive.

The only thing that's worked well for us recently is the preparation of our Test and U20's - and that's a fragile thing. We stand to turn into a 3rd world rugby nation with the way things are going. For me it's no longer just about he Scarlets. It's the whole damn thing. Booting Lewis and Pickering out would just be a welcome gesture as far as I'm concerned. The problems run far deeper.

HammerofThunor wrote:Surely the regs you quoted state that the union can't get players out of their contracts without the Regions' say so.

Not having an agreement with the union doesn't stop them being rugby union teams. It may well stop them from being in any competitions but a union can't just destroy a teams just because they feel like it.

And if they stop the teams from competing in pro12 they'll have to be damn sure of themselves legally. They made the regions form in the first place. They encouraged investment in them. Now they want to scupper them because they won't go above and beyond the IRB regs? That's sounds very challengeable to me (although I'd imagine it taken more than a season to sort out so not much good.

I'm not talking about WRU getting, or trying to force, players out of contracts. I am questioning the validity of contracts should WRU and RRW divorce?The regulations go both ways. That's my point. The regulations are those concerning written agreements with those affiliated to 'Rugby Union'. If it happened that the Regions ceased to be affiliated to 'Rugby Union' then my question is can they legally prevent players from playing in 'Rugby Union' competition? I don't think they can.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

Same thing mate.

Do I really have to explain that one for you?  

I'm talking about the Scarlets dropping out of top flight rugby for political reasons as opposed to rugby ones.

I've followed the Scarlets since I was a toddler. I dont need a Kerdiffian telling me who they are   

Kerdiffian born and bred, I consider myself admonished by a proper Terk.

   the Yanks used to call Llanelli "Slash" back in WW2 - couldnt say Ll   

Mind you I remember an english mate asking me why they werent building the national assembly in Wales?

Ah Wales. Dont you just love the tribalism?  

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Surely the regs you quoted state that the union can't get players out of their contracts without the Regions' say so.

Not having an agreement with the union doesn't stop them being rugby union teams. It may well stop them from being in any competitions but a union can't just destroy a teams just because they feel like it.

And if they stop the teams from competing in pro12 they'll have to be damn sure of themselves legally. They made the regions form in the first place. They encouraged investment in them. Now they want to scupper them because they won't go above and beyond the IRB regs? That's sounds very challengeable to me (although I'd imagine it taken more than a season to sort out so not much good.

I'm not talking about WRU getting, or trying to force, players out of contracts. I am questioning the validity of contracts should WRU and RRW divorce?The regulations go both ways. That's my point. The regulations are those concerning written agreements with those affiliated to 'Rugby Union'. If it happened that the Regions ceased to be affiliated to 'Rugby Union' then my question is can they legally prevent players from playing in 'Rugby Union' competition? I don't think they can.

Again, your assuming that RRW will leave the WRU. This is so unlikely and also in a legal sense difficult as far as I'm aware. The most likely outcome if this does go nuclear is that RRW will cease to exist but the parent companies (Llanelli et al) will and will continue to hold player contracts as long as they can afford to do so ... which wont be very long. Can you honestly see Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (Are we talking Swansea alone for the Ospreys?) severing their affiliation to the WRU? Where would they go? Who would they play? A new breakaway Welsh league with Neath, Ponty and Bridgend? An anglo Welsh? these are so unlikely and any player going with them would have to give up test rugby. Just not going to happen unless silly season is truly upon us ... in which case I hope the benefactors have VERY deep pockets!