Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

The "clubs" did though at the recent and now infamous EGM aka shambles, where Gerald gave a lovely speech and shook Moffetts hand on his way out while Rog and Pickering looked on, dazzled.
Pretty obvious what needs to happen isn't it?

Yes, but dont pretend for a moment that Cardiff, Llanelli et al are above this or whiter than white in any way. The administration of rugby in Wales has been shocking on all fronts for decades upon decades. Anyone who has tried to make changes has been left out in the cold - Jiffy and Carwyn are two prime examples of Scarlets who were ignored by the WRU. Look at the financial mismanagement of our clubs. Heavily dependent on benefactors from the outset of professionalism in 95. We are just starting to get to grips with the need to be professional off the pitch as well as on it - and we're still blydi amateurs on that front.

Whole scale restructuring needed across the board .... and that may mean that people like ourselves may have to give up some precious notions about our clubs as well as see a long hoped for reform of the WRU if welsh rugby is to thrive.

The only thing that's worked well for us recently is the preparation of our Test and U20's - and that's a fragile thing. We stand to turn into a 3rd world rugby nation with the way things are going. For me it's no longer just about he Scarlets. It's the whole damn thing. Booting Lewis and Pickering out would just be a welcome gesture as far as I'm concerned. The problems run far deeper.

Not pretending that at all. The Cardiff City Stadium debacle starter for ten?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

The "clubs" did though at the recent and now infamous EGM aka shambles, where Gerald gave a lovely speech and shook Moffetts hand on his way out while Rog and Pickering looked on, dazzled.
Pretty obvious what needs to happen isn't it?

Yes, but dont pretend for a moment that Cardiff, Llanelli et al are above this or whiter than white in any way. The administration of rugby in Wales has been shocking on all fronts for decades upon decades. Anyone who has tried to make changes has been left out in the cold - Jiffy and Carwyn are two prime examples of Scarlets who were ignored by the WRU. Look at the financial mismanagement of our clubs. Heavily dependent on benefactors from the outset of professionalism in 95. We are just starting to get to grips with the need to be professional off the pitch as well as on it - and we're still blydi amateurs on that front.

Whole scale restructuring needed across the board .... and that may mean that people like ourselves may have to give up some precious notions about our clubs as well as see a long hoped for reform of the WRU if welsh rugby is to thrive.

The only thing that's worked well for us recently is the preparation of our Test and U20's - and that's a fragile thing. We stand to turn into a 3rd world rugby nation with the way things are going. For me it's no longer just about he Scarlets. It's the whole damn thing. Booting Lewis and Pickering out would just be a welcome gesture as far as I'm concerned. The problems run far deeper.

Not pretending that at all. The Cardiff City Stadium debacle starter for ten?

Indeed. Now we're starting to get to the root of my pessimism about Welsh rugby.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

Same thing mate.

Do I really have to explain that one for you?  

I'm talking about the Scarlets dropping out of top flight rugby for political reasons as opposed to rugby ones.

I've followed the Scarlets since I was a toddler. I dont need a Kerdiffian telling me who they are   

Kerdiffian born and bred, I consider myself admonished by a proper Terk.

   the Yanks used to call Llanelli "Slash" back in WW2 - couldnt say Ll   

Mind you I remember an english mate asking me why they werent building the national assembly in Wales?

Ah Wales. Dont you just love the tribalism?  

RCT miners gave the Yanks a good seeing too in 1944 so I was told. For flashing the cash and nicking their birds.
As for our Welsh Assembly ahem Government, I read on BBC teletext that their favourite websites whilst in "work" are Amazon, Tripadvisor and Facebook.
Meh.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Surely the regs you quoted state that the union can't get players out of their contracts without the Regions' say so.

Not having an agreement with the union doesn't stop them being rugby union teams. It may well stop them from being in any competitions but a union can't just destroy a teams just because they feel like it.

And if they stop the teams from competing in pro12 they'll have to be damn sure of themselves legally. They made the regions form in the first place. They encouraged investment in them. Now they want to scupper them because they won't go above and beyond the IRB regs? That's sounds very challengeable to me (although I'd imagine it taken more than a season to sort out so not much good.

I'm not talking about WRU getting, or trying to force, players out of contracts. I am questioning the validity of contracts should WRU and RRW divorce?The regulations go both ways. That's my point. The regulations are those concerning written agreements with those affiliated to 'Rugby Union'. If it happened that the Regions ceased to be affiliated to 'Rugby Union' then my question is can they legally prevent players from playing in 'Rugby Union' competition? I don't think they can.

Again, your assuming that RRW will leave the WRU. This is so unlikely and also in a legal sense difficult as far as I'm aware. The most likely outcome if this does go nuclear is that RRW will cease to exist but the parent companies (Llanelli et al) will and will continue to hold player contracts as long as they can afford to do so ... which wont be very long. Can you honestly see Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (Are we talking Swansea alone for the Ospreys?) severing their affiliation to the WRU? Where would they go? Who would they play? A new breakaway Welsh league with Neath, Ponty and Bridgend? An anglo Welsh? these are so unlikely and any player going with them would have to give up test rugby. Just not going to happen unless silly season is truly upon us ... in which case I hope the benefactors have VERY deep pockets!

I'm simply making a case 'if' it were to happen. I have stated on a couple of occasions that I think it unlikely.

Good points on Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport. So, RRW is gone, and the Regions cease to exist as Regions, and no longer stakeholders in the new Euro competition, but they, the clubs, are still affiliates of WRU, and can refuse player release for competitions outside the IRB window. Makes sense   
Not that is what would happen. I would think by this stage they would have lost the will to fight, but that's besides the point.

Thankyou  

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

The "clubs" did though at the recent and now infamous EGM aka shambles, where Gerald gave a lovely speech and shook Moffetts hand on his way out while Rog and Pickering looked on, dazzled.
Pretty obvious what needs to happen isn't it?

Yes, but dont pretend for a moment that Cardiff, Llanelli et al are above this or whiter than white in any way. The administration of rugby in Wales has been shocking on all fronts for decades upon decades. Anyone who has tried to make changes has been left out in the cold - Jiffy and Carwyn are two prime examples of Scarlets who were ignored by the WRU. Look at the financial mismanagement of our clubs. Heavily dependent on benefactors from the outset of professionalism in 95. We are just starting to get to grips with the need to be professional off the pitch as well as on it - and we're still blydi amateurs on that front.

Whole scale restructuring needed across the board .... and that may mean that people like ourselves may have to give up some precious notions about our clubs as well as see a long hoped for reform of the WRU if welsh rugby is to thrive.

The only thing that's worked well for us recently is the preparation of our Test and U20's - and that's a fragile thing. We stand to turn into a 3rd world rugby nation with the way things are going. For me it's no longer just about he Scarlets. It's the whole damn thing. Booting Lewis and Pickering out would just be a welcome gesture as far as I'm concerned. The problems run far deeper.

Not pretending that at all. The Cardiff City Stadium debacle starter for ten?

Indeed. Now we're starting to get to the root of my pessimism about Welsh rugby.

Don't be pessimistic though. What is happening now needs to happen and has needed to happen for a long, long time. Wales at present is supersaturated with team fecking Wales. Has been for years. We need balance.

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Surely the regs you quoted state that the union can't get players out of their contracts without the Regions' say so.

Not having an agreement with the union doesn't stop them being rugby union teams. It may well stop them from being in any competitions but a union can't just destroy a teams just because they feel like it.

And if they stop the teams from competing in pro12 they'll have to be damn sure of themselves legally. They made the regions form in the first place. They encouraged investment in them. Now they want to scupper them because they won't go above and beyond the IRB regs? That's sounds very challengeable to me (although I'd imagine it taken more than a season to sort out so not much good.

I'm not talking about WRU getting, or trying to force, players out of contracts. I am questioning the validity of contracts should WRU and RRW divorce?The regulations go both ways. That's my point. The regulations are those concerning written agreements with those affiliated to 'Rugby Union'. If it happened that the Regions ceased to be affiliated to 'Rugby Union' then my question is can they legally prevent players from playing in 'Rugby Union' competition? I don't think they can.

Again, your assuming that RRW will leave the WRU. This is so unlikely and also in a legal sense difficult as far as I'm aware. The most likely outcome if this does go nuclear is that RRW will cease to exist but the parent companies (Llanelli et al) will and will continue to hold player contracts as long as they can afford to do so ... which wont be very long. Can you honestly see Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (Are we talking Swansea alone for the Ospreys?) severing their affiliation to the WRU? Where would they go? Who would they play? A new breakaway Welsh league with Neath, Ponty and Bridgend? An anglo Welsh? these are so unlikely and any player going with them would have to give up test rugby. Just not going to happen unless silly season is truly upon us ... in which case I hope the benefactors have VERY deep pockets!

I'm simply making a case 'if' it were to happen. I have stated on a couple of occasions that I think it unlikely.

Good points on Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport. So, RRW is gone, and the Regions cease to exist as Regions, and no longer stakeholders in the new Euro competition, but they, the clubs, are still affiliates of WRU, and can refuse player release for competitions outside the IRB window. Makes sense   
Not that is what would happen. I would think by this stage they would have lost the will to fight, but that's besides the point.

Thankyou  

The word "Region" is a dirty and misleading word. Ban it from our rugby vocab I say. It has caused nothing but bother from the outset.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Surely the regs you quoted state that the union can't get players out of their contracts without the Regions' say so.

Not having an agreement with the union doesn't stop them being rugby union teams. It may well stop them from being in any competitions but a union can't just destroy a teams just because they feel like it.

And if they stop the teams from competing in pro12 they'll have to be damn sure of themselves legally. They made the regions form in the first place. They encouraged investment in them. Now they want to scupper them because they won't go above and beyond the IRB regs? That's sounds very challengeable to me (although I'd imagine it taken more than a season to sort out so not much good.

I'm not talking about WRU getting, or trying to force, players out of contracts. I am questioning the validity of contracts should WRU and RRW divorce?The regulations go both ways. That's my point. The regulations are those concerning written agreements with those affiliated to 'Rugby Union'. If it happened that the Regions ceased to be affiliated to 'Rugby Union' then my question is can they legally prevent players from playing in 'Rugby Union' competition? I don't think they can.

Again, your assuming that RRW will leave the WRU. This is so unlikely and also in a legal sense difficult as far as I'm aware. The most likely outcome if this does go nuclear is that RRW will cease to exist but the parent companies (Llanelli et al) will and will continue to hold player contracts as long as they can afford to do so ... which wont be very long. Can you honestly see Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (Are we talking Swansea alone for the Ospreys?) severing their affiliation to the WRU? Where would they go? Who would they play? A new breakaway Welsh league with Neath, Ponty and Bridgend? An anglo Welsh? these are so unlikely and any player going with them would have to give up test rugby. Just not going to happen unless silly season is truly upon us ... in which case I hope the benefactors have VERY deep pockets!

I'm simply making a case 'if' it were to happen. I have stated on a couple of occasions that I think it unlikely.

Good points on Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport. So, RRW is gone, and the Regions cease to exist as Regions, and no longer stakeholders in the new Euro competition, but they, the clubs, are still affiliates of WRU, and can refuse player release for competitions outside the IRB window. Makes sense   
Not that is what would happen. I would think by this stage they would have lost the will to fight, but that's besides the point.

Thankyou  

The word "Region" is a dirty and misleading word. Ban it from our rugby vocab I say. It has caused nothing but bother from the outset.

Have to agree, Dave. A flawed model from the beginning, and sadly there doesn't appear to be either the will, or the way, to rectify that. In fact, things seem to have gone from bad to worse, incredibly. Even if agreement is found now, the damage caused to a working relationship between the two is likely irreparable. 


Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. Maybe there's a cure in a change at the top of WRU? I think the problems stem from both sides though.

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Surely the regs you quoted state that the union can't get players out of their contracts without the Regions' say so.

Not having an agreement with the union doesn't stop them being rugby union teams. It may well stop them from being in any competitions but a union can't just destroy a teams just because they feel like it.

And if they stop the teams from competing in pro12 they'll have to be damn sure of themselves legally. They made the regions form in the first place. They encouraged investment in them. Now they want to scupper them because they won't go above and beyond the IRB regs? That's sounds very challengeable to me (although I'd imagine it taken more than a season to sort out so not much good.

I'm not talking about WRU getting, or trying to force, players out of contracts. I am questioning the validity of contracts should WRU and RRW divorce?The regulations go both ways. That's my point. The regulations are those concerning written agreements with those affiliated to 'Rugby Union'. If it happened that the Regions ceased to be affiliated to 'Rugby Union' then my question is can they legally prevent players from playing in 'Rugby Union' competition? I don't think they can.

Again, your assuming that RRW will leave the WRU. This is so unlikely and also in a legal sense difficult as far as I'm aware. The most likely outcome if this does go nuclear is that RRW will cease to exist but the parent companies (Llanelli et al) will and will continue to hold player contracts as long as they can afford to do so ... which wont be very long. Can you honestly see Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport (Are we talking Swansea alone for the Ospreys?) severing their affiliation to the WRU? Where would they go? Who would they play? A new breakaway Welsh league with Neath, Ponty and Bridgend? An anglo Welsh? these are so unlikely and any player going with them would have to give up test rugby. Just not going to happen unless silly season is truly upon us ... in which case I hope the benefactors have VERY deep pockets!

I'm simply making a case 'if' it were to happen. I have stated on a couple of occasions that I think it unlikely.

Good points on Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport. So, RRW is gone, and the Regions cease to exist as Regions, and no longer stakeholders in the new Euro competition, but they, the clubs, are still affiliates of WRU, and can refuse player release for competitions outside the IRB window. Makes sense   
Not that is what would happen. I would think by this stage they would have lost the will to fight, but that's besides the point.

Thankyou  

The word "Region" is a dirty and misleading word. Ban it from our rugby vocab I say. It has caused nothing but bother from the outset.

Have to agree, Dave. A flawed model from the beginning, and sadly there doesn't appear to be either the will, or the way, to rectify that. In fact, things seem to have gone from bad to worse, incredibly. Even if agreement is found now, the damage caused to a working relationship between the two is likely irreparable. 


Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. Maybe there's a cure in a change at the top of WRU? I think the problems stem from both sides though.

Munchkin, I think the WRU's play is to see the benefactors walk away and write off their investment. You're right, the remainder within the club wont have any fight left let alone money to fight with. I think we're looking at a very unpalatable situation where a boatload of fans get alienated - again. Twice in a generation. If we're going to go through upheavel, what comes had better be superior to what it replaces. Sadly this is so cackhanded we're going to have no change at the WRU and a more divided rugby public than ever before.

I can put my hand on my heart and say IF the structure of our game were put right and the WRU reformed, I could accept the argument for central regions. I actually think it would be more cost effective and less divisive if done correctly. However, I cannot see a single figure in any part of Welsh Rugby who is capable of any kind of evenhanded action. In the meantime Roger and his little minions can go spin on my middle finger. If they think they can win the argument or win over the fans with such shocking behaviour they've got another thing coming.

Perhaps we'll see the regions and Roger and Pickering go. As Larry David said - a good compromise is when nobody's happy   

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Dai, I've heard Mr Lewis say the 4th AI is purely to cover the money they give the regions for their allowing the 4th AI.  And the two weeks pre AIs / 6Ns, oh and two weeks during the 6Ns too.  So we should suffer during the AIs and 6Ns due to being unable to be the best prepared side anymore.

Gareth Davies, Drags CEO (Welshmushroom's supposed team LOL) speaks;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU0lO0ZqUGM

Dave, the Dragons are my team. I'm not sure what your problem with me is. I'm not pro WRU by the way. I'm genuinely concerned at this stage as I have a vested interest in terms of season tickets in the Dragons having pro rugby on show for next season. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who is concerned by all this crap going on.

In order to avoid what is likely to be a doomed mud slinging competition once again it might be worth us just ignoring each others posts. I've read my comments back on this thread and I don't think anything was wrong with my comments and genuine questions.

Just because we have had previous disagreements please keep in mind I'm entitled to my opinion. It's not like I resorting to mock you in fairness.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Final point ... from a Scarlets perspective if we dont get nominated for the Pro12 there is only one sustainable option left. No more "Scarlets" - just Llanelli RFC and the matter of a large number of redundancies. I cant see the PRL coming in on a white horse to bail us out with an anglo welsh.

What then? Will the money men carry on? Will the WRU contract the top 90-100 players? Do we go back to the days of a welsh premiership. My guess is WRU CC's and new regions in the Pro12 whilst the money men leave.

A brave new world? I have grave concerns. I dont have confidence in the WRU.

To be honest I agree with this sentiment. I don't actually have a lot of faith in anyone involved in professional rugby with maybe the exception of Gatland. The whole thing is a mess to be honest with no one coming out of this well. Maybe someone can write to Bill Gates (famed for his charity work) and get him to buy out Welsh Rugby in its entirety including the WRU members. At least then we would have unity.

Bottom line is I still think they will end up with an agreement by the start of next season because everyone has to much to lose. My question is what is the point of airing ones laundry in public? Has anyone ever actually resolved a dispute this way in history by using this method? Surely a closed door policy until no further agreement or a deal is done would be the best way to go for everyone concerned. Welsh Rugby has always had this element in it and despite any changes in the game the need to go public with things will always be there sadly. Anyway that's the last post from me on the subject. I'm off to talk about other things rugby related as I am tired of all this rugby politics.

It would be great if the WRU shut down the current joke of 'regions' that we have and setup real regions to replace them that ALL OF WALES can support. Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli fans can still watch their teams in the Welsh Premiership. It would be great if the WRU bought them and shut them down

Lewis & Pickering dont want to buy the regions they want to bankrupt them! Not only will the benefactors who have supported the game lose their money but also the local suppliers and the Councils such as Swansea and Carmarthenshire who have also supported the game.

Like them or not, the regions have enabled us as supporters to experience top level professional rugby on our doorstep, they have also produced a golden generation of players for the international team.

Whilst Lewis and Pickering remain in charge, professional rugby in Wales is doomed, they are creaming off the cash earned by the game to support their own bonus payments. They will never agree to diverting any of this cash to supporting the professional game as it will hit them in the pocket!

As for the extra autumn international, I struggle to see how this will now be played as so many of the Wales players will now not be available.

Steffan wrote:It would be great if the WRU shut down the current joke of 'regions' that we have and setup real regions to replace them that ALL OF WALES can support. Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli fans can still watch their teams in the Welsh Premiership. It would be great if the WRU bought them and shut them down

Buying them and shutting them down would probably make next to no sense financially speaking. If, hypothetically (the buyout is still a long way from materialising), the WRU did buy the regions reforming them gradually along more genuinely 'regional' lines would be a more viable solution. The Moffett regime f***ed up in the beginning by caving to pressure from the egos at the top of the old club system, leading to the formation of the 'superclubs'. Had they had the stones to put tradition aside and spearhead a more nationally representative structure, much of the fallout which has occurred since could potentially have been avoided.

The bottom line being that we've been set back about ten years by that one titanic blunder. The current administration has inherited the problem, not created it.

Whilst I am no fan of Lewis and certainly can't stand the sight nor sound of Dickering (what does he do) I still think both sides are as bad as each other we all know the Regions were set up wrong in the first place but we have seen more success Internationally since they have been than I have ever experienced as an adult and on the European front our then Clubs were no great success.

Starting from scratch again will still have the same tribalism as before with everyone wanting the Region to be set up in the town/valley playing at their ground.

This letter has just been posted on Scarlet Fever. One of the junior clubs - not sure which - sent it out:

To WRU Member Clubs 10th July 2014

Dear Secretaries,


I write to you in relation to the proposed new leagues being imposed by our union against the wishes of so many member clubs.

It is with ever increasing despair and sadness that I write to all club secretaries. I and many other club Officers from dozens of member clubs feel so aggrieved that we are taking advice in relation to legal action against our own union to stop this league restructure. We are looking at obtaining a prohibitive injunction to stop these ridiculous changes being implemented and are looking for your support in relation to this. This can be achieved quickly and will stop this restructure.

If the legal option is in any way elongated then there will be enough clubs willing to pursue another EGM understanding that time is short. Either way this has to be stopped. I have attempted to keep this letter as short as possible, but make no apologies in highlighting that this is the last chance for member clubs to stop this damage to welsh rugby.

I have covered later in this document some of the major concerns raised by member clubs, a reminder that 88 clubs have said no and another 95 either didn’t answer or respond, some have stated that they did not receive the ballot communication. This was always going to be the case with a ‘rushed’ and unexplained ballot.

I know we will not have support of all clubs but I ask that you read and carefully consider the content of this letter before you and your club Officers make a decision, as what will be put in place will effect many clubs for many years to come and will cause untold damage to rugby in Wales.

It is with ever increasing disappointment that the latest letter to clubs received from Mr Roger Lewis states that regardless of the disillusionment of dozens of clubs, these new and in our view illegal and unjust changes will go ahead and in Mr Lewis words will be reviewed in a year’s time with another ‘working party’. Again no mention of any consultation process. Who is this working party?

The Ballot!
It is important to place on record that we as clubs should never have been in the position to have a ballot in any form whatsoever and the way the decision was reached at the EGM to have a ballot was a disgrace and as manipulative as I have ever seen

Clubs are not happy at the protocols and processes for this ballot happening in the way it did. We do not want any league changes without a proper consultation; this has and will remain our stance.

There should have been and should still be a proper consultation of all clubs, one would have to ask the question on what basis can a proper ballot be counted? When many clubs do not know or understand the position they will find themselves in. How could clubs make an informed decision in relation to the ballot without a proper consultation?

Is that why only 43% of clubs have responded to the ballot in saying they will accept the change……..that leaves 57% of clubs who have either said no or not said anything!

Again, one must ask how can fundamental changes in the way the leagues are structured be implemented when less than half of all clubs are agreeing with it?

The damage to welsh rugby’s lower league sides will be irreversible. Ambition and aspiration will completely disappear.

We as member clubs asked the union to forward all information in relation to the ‘ballot’ and asked for confirmation on the number of clubs that were entitled to vote and how many voted yes and how many voted no?

The WRU informed us = 70% voted - 61% for & 39% against – was this correct? Of course figures can be manipulated and presented in a variety of fashions to suit.

Our calculations are as follows:

If the total of member clubs = 320. Then 70% of that would be 224 clubs? This was not the case. Below explains it better:

For 61% of the vote x 224 this would be 136 clubs for and 88 against and 96 abstaining!

So as we see it the so called ‘win’ vote is only 42.8% of the WRU membership.

Surely somewhere in the constitution of the WRU a minimum of at least 50% of any full vote is required before any such drastic changes to the leagues are implemented. The Union were asked to forward copies of the relevant part of the WRU constitution that is related to any ballots that will explain proper procedures so that they can be forwarded to our club solicitors and colleagues. This was more than two weeks ago and still the union have not explained this, in any way, in fact once again not even the decency of an acknowledgement of the email.

Are you as a club fully aware of the set up of the new leagues and how promotion and relegation will occur?

The changes will completely remove any ambition, aspiration and motivation for the majority of clubs, without those three things clubs will die, rugby is all about aspiration and ambition, remove it and you have nothing to play for. The so called new Division three clubs will amount to 156 clubs, from this number only four will be promoted and clubs never relegated. A club could win their particular league year on year and never get promoted due to the ridiculous ‘play-off’ process. Where in that is ambition or aspiration?


What incentive will the clubs have to invest in the future?

A division 3 club can be one of thirteen clubs that win there particular league and the majority of these still not be promoted. Only the winner of the league can get into a play-off process, the runner up is not promoted.

The majority of clubs half way through a season will have nothing to play for and the retention, excitement, ambition of players will be lost. We all know how hard it is to motivate amateur players at the best of times. These leagues will make this impossible.

At the other end of the divisions 3s a club that has a bad start and is bottom of the division after say Christmas will struggle to get a side out on a Saturday and will probably not worry to much as they will not be demoted, and by the fact that no divisional fixture list will be completed in its entirety, most clubs will have the points for the early season wins deducted and positions in the division will change causing confusion and discord, and inevitably a major come back on the decision makers.

I would ask all secretaries, Chairpersons and officers of clubs to properly look at what is being offered by the WRU in respect of these leagues. There is no doubt there is an agenda to ‘cull’ the number of member clubs. Some clubs will turn into Super clubs. Be assured this will happen if this league restructure is implemented. Please don’t hide behind the comfort that you are at present in a higher league, as things change rapidly in rugby!

Also note that if you are a division 2 club, and find yourself heading for relegation to one of the many division 3s towards the end of a season, there is no doubt that you as a division 2 club will do everything in your power to stay in division 2, as dropping into any third division will see you in the same ‘ground hog’ day position and prospect of playing the same clubs in the same league forever and ever, in a division you may struggle to get out of. This will be mirrored by division one clubs especially if they find themselves in a relegation freefall, and we all know this happens.

Worst of all the best players from division three clubs will be hunted by division two clubs who are fighting to stay up, money will change hands and this is against all what we as junior member clubs want, but will without question happen. Again, this will be mirrored with the relegation from division one to division two.

Of 320 member clubs only 14 clubs (4.5%) will be promoted with 19 clubs (6.1%) demoted, (89.4%) left with no ambition. This is the reality 89.4 per cent left without ambition or aspiration. This will take the Heart, Pride, and Passion, out of Welsh rugby and will have catastrophic effect on every facet of the game in Wales.

For Mr Lewis to say that the new league structure will be monitored and reviewed at the end of the season, sound like hog wash! If you have doubts, then it shouldn’t be done. Most clubs I have spoken too from across Wales from North to South and East to West, have in no uncertain terms major doubts.
Many clubs refer to that ‘hidden agenda’ and the secrecy of the so called working party process, the lack of information and due process, which caused an EGM in the first place. The union and especially the executive officers of our union should have delayed these changes until a full, inclusive, professional and proper consultation process was undertaken. Why would they not do this?
It is also worth noting that the 320 clubs not the regions sell the majority of international tickets, it is the clubs that supply and nurture the fans, raise the spirit of amateur players, support and finance youth rugby, schools rugby, mini/junior rugby and of course if the parents have nothing to support and more importantly enjoy they will not support there children into the game.

Clubs without ambition may as well close doors now before they run into financial problems and debt and be forced to.

Sponsors will realize that there is no support for the game in Wales and therefore will not spend money, where they see no return.

Each facet of the game goes through the club houses and facilities, if there is a lack of ambition, forced on us by these new leagues then clubs will fail. Keeping clubs viable now is very difficult with the economic climate as it is.

As said, it is with deep regret that I have had to write this letter, I write it with a heavy heart.

I hope you and your club officers will react quickly to this letter and respond by return as to whether you are willing to support us in stopping these league changes before it is too late.

Weren't member clubs balloted on league restructure? And voted quite heavily in support of the changes as they did in favour of the current WRU board?

The letter makes it sound like the clubs are being oppressed and denied a voice when the process itself appears to have been fairly democratic.

Sounds to me like a desperate last ditch attempt by the tradition junkies who remain ever hostile to even the smallest hint of change. This attitude is likely to prolong or even intensify the quagmire of Welsh rugby. Different times and circumstances have been upon us since the dawn of professionalism, something a number of member clubs deny in their delusions and obsession with the status quo.

I just think it's indicative of the poor way in which welsh rugby is run. "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right ..."

Surely the clubs had their chance to get rid of Lewis and Co but as Knows said they voted for the current crop of idiots to remain. Lets be honest has Welsh rugby ever been run properly.

During the 70s my uncle played for Ebbw and Abertillery in the old Merit system and later on was for a while on the board of Abertillery in what capacity I cant remember but even then I remember him slating the WRU and some of the other clubs who looked upon Ebbw and Abertillery and the like and the minnows, whilst the so called big boys wanted it all and wanted it all their way.

It has been an eternally confusing mess. The noises coming from a number of clubs indicate some considerable level of discontent with the WRU board yet the EGM indicates that those clubs make up only a tiny minority. And again, the letter posted by TBS points towards fierce opposition to the proposed restructure while on paper this is again contradicted as apparently the changes are well backed by a majority of member clubs in the recent ballot. The junior club releasing the statement above seems convinced that the figures were manipulated, though as far as I know this very serious allegation has yet to be supported by others. Reaction to the letter might tell us more.

Either the manipulation allegation is correct or the club is blatantly making things up to suit their own purposes. Either way, misconduct is coming from at least one side of the spectrum or, perhaps more likely, both to some extent. I simply have no idea.

Could Moffett have been the reason? He forced the EGM with a somewhat personal agenda of returning to the WRU board (for which I am extremely grateful he was denied). Perhaps the clubs voting decided the current board was the lesser of two evils out of reluctance to regress back to the Moffett years. This is pure speculation, I cannot speak with any full certainty.

Whilst I to am glad Moffett didn't get back in I do wonder could he have been any worse than the current incumbents, a change is long overdue but again the lesser of two evils quote comes to mind.


If this mess is still going on come kick off time to the season then I really don't know what will happen, could the Regions refuse to play in the league? Is that a bargaining tool them if so would the Unions back down or has has been threatened in the past could they put another 4 teams in?

About 28% voted no, 42% voted yes and 30% didn't vote. I don't think you can call 88 clubs a tiny majority. Also what were they voting for? League restructuring? No confidence? Everything?

This letter is suggesting the ballot which bit dodgy, in terms of informing them of what was going on.

Directed at me? The 'tiny minority' part was in reference to the no confidence vote (462 in favour of the current board and 4 against it with 18 abstentions). The restructure ballot came directly afterwards and seems to have been much closer going by those figures.

Steffan wrote:It would be great if the WRU shut down the current joke of 'regions' that we have and setup real regions to replace them that ALL OF WALES can support. Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli fans can still watch their teams in the Welsh Premiership. It would be great if the WRU bought them and shut them down

Set up real regions like the "Valleys Rugby" (TM) one that represents all of the valleys allegedly and will be able to operate on a third of the budget, you mean?   

Knowsit17 wrote:Directed at me? The 'tiny minority' part was in reference to the no confidence vote (462 in favour of the current board and 4 against it with 18 abstentions). The restructure ballot came directly afterwards and seems to have been much closer going by those figures.

That is tiny. But that letter was all about the league restructure wasn't it?

Risca Rev wrote:

Steffan wrote:It would be great if the WRU shut down the current joke of 'regions' that we have and setup real regions to replace them that ALL OF WALES can support. Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli fans can still watch their teams in the Welsh Premiership. It would be great if the WRU bought them and shut them down

Set up real regions like the "Valleys Rugby" (TM) one that represents all of the valleys allegedly and will be able to operate on a third of the budget, you mean?   

I never said Valleys Rugby was a real region though did I you clown...

It would have been just as much of a joke as the current fake regions with even less of a budget

And there in lies the problem, I don't think you will ever get a structure that every Valley, Town or Club would be happy with the in-fighting and rivalries will always be there.

Whilst the current set up isn't perfect by any stretch we have seen success on the National front and as I have said for a while now us old folks need to be forgotten about its the future they should be pinning their hopes on and aiming their marketing at.

Young kids have no affiliation as such with your Pontys and Ebbws other than what family have told them, kids want to see the stars play whether that be football (which is where they are going because of the fighting) or rugby and if they want to see the Welsh stars play than as we stand they have to go and watch a Region.

Ideal world solution, three teams, Probs, Poss, Hopefuls. HQs, Cardiff (with games in ponty/Newport), Swansea (games in Llanelli / Bridgend) and Wrexham (games at PARC erias), the three teams alternate base every season. That way we all get games, and we all have the best, average and worst team too route for too.

SS,

Playing devils advocate even in ideal world that wouldn't work, people from Ponty still wouldn't go to Cardiff for games and people from Ebbw certainly wouldn't ( lot won't even go to Newport) then the people from Newport wouldn't go to Cardiff and would Scarlets fans be happy with a home base at the Liberty.

Even then when the base is alternated you would still have the same rivalries and bitterness, we all know we are in one hell of a mess at the moment but I can't see how restructuring or rebranding things at this late in the day would help.

As for what I would suggest or propose then I really have no idea I can see something breaking beyond repair before it gets better. Sad I know.

Bedford.

Year 1
Prob - Cardiff, poss - Swansea, hopefuls - north

Year 2
Prob - north, poss - Cardiff, hopefuls -Swansea

Year 3
Prob - Swansea, poss - Cardiff, hopefuls -north

And so on.


It was all a bit tongue in cheek though

Its as good a proposal as we have had and like all the rest its got about as much chance as happening or not as the rest have

Full attack and congrats Germany. Best team won;

https://s1302.photobucket.com/user/dlp121081/media/7aa7c7479582c80a6f55c4b8875d424c_zpsa9677af0.jpg.html

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Dai, I've heard Mr Lewis say the 4th AI is purely to cover the money they give the regions for their allowing the 4th AI.  And the two weeks pre AIs / 6Ns, oh and two weeks during the 6Ns too.  So we should suffer during the AIs and 6Ns due to being unable to be the best prepared side anymore.

Gareth Davies, Drags CEO (Welshmushroom's supposed team LOL) speaks;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU0lO0ZqUGM

Dave, the Dragons are my team.  I'm not sure what your problem with me is.  I'm not pro WRU by the way.  I'm genuinely concerned at this stage as I have a vested interest in terms of season tickets in the Dragons having pro rugby on show for next season.  I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who is concerned by all this crap going on.

In order to avoid what is likely to be a doomed mud slinging competition once again it might be worth us just ignoring each others posts.  I've read my comments back on this thread and I don't think anything was wrong with my comments and genuine questions.  

Just because we have had previous disagreements please keep in mind I'm entitled to my opinion.  It's not like I resorting to mock you in fairness.

Prove it.

Seagultaf wrote:Lewis & Pickering dont want to buy the regions they want to bankrupt them! Not only will the benefactors who have supported the game lose their money but also the local suppliers and the Councils such as Swansea and Carmarthenshire who have also supported the game.

Like them or not, the regions have enabled us as supporters to experience top level professional rugby on our doorstep, they have also produced a golden generation of players for the international team.

Whilst Lewis and Pickering remain in charge, professional rugby in Wales is doomed, they are creaming off the cash earned by the game to support their own bonus payments. They will never agree to diverting any of this cash to supporting the professional game as it will hit them in the pocket!

As for the extra autumn international, I struggle to see how this will now be played as so many of the Wales players will now not be available.

I'd like to know more about this and i'm on your wavelentgh I think Seagul. As in something stinks. Like our dodgy councils for example.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Whilst I to am glad Moffett didn't get back

Why? Honest question like.

bedfordwelsh wrote:And there in lies the problem, I don't think you will ever get a structure that every Valley, Town or Club would be happy with the in-fighting and rivalries will always be there.

Whilst the current set up isn't perfect by any stretch we have seen success on the National front and as I have said for a while now us old folks need to be forgotten about its the future they should be pinning their hopes on and aiming their marketing at.

Young kids have no affiliation as such with your Pontys and Ebbws other than what family have told them, kids want to see the stars play whether that be football (which is where they are going because of the fighting) or rugby and if they want to see the Welsh stars play than as we stand they have to go and watch a Region.

Yep, agree with that.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ideal world solution, three teams, Probs, Poss, Hopefuls.  HQs, Cardiff (with games in ponty/Newport), Swansea (games in Llanelli / Bridgend) and Wrexham (games at PARC erias), the three teams alternate base every season.  That way we all get games, and we all have the best, average and worst team too route for too.  

Ideal world solution my backside.
The way forward is first of all Cardiff (obviously and goes without saying), Newport, Jacks and finally Terks.

Steffan wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Steffan wrote:It would be great if the WRU shut down the current joke of 'regions' that we have and setup real regions to replace them that ALL OF WALES can support. Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli fans can still watch their teams in the Welsh Premiership. It would be great if the WRU bought them and shut them down

Set up real regions like the "Valleys Rugby" (TM) one that represents all of the valleys allegedly and will be able to operate on a third of the budget, you mean?   

I never said Valleys Rugby was a real region though did I you clown...

It would have been just as much of a joke as the current fake regions with even less of a budget

Come on babes, no need for personal attacks. At least Valleys Rugby could have banked on the support of the 1,000,000,000 Ponty fans too.

RR you left a 0 out.

I had a quick skim back through this thread, but no one seems to have mentioned what is happening with Warbuton
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28286510

cakeordeath wrote:I had a quick skim back through this thread, but no one seems to have mentioned what is happening with Warbuton
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28286510

Apologies in advance for the cheap shot, but, given the amount of time he usually spends injured would anyone notice?

I think both him and the WRU were hoping a deal would be done but at the moment unless one of the Regions break ranks he won't be playing for any of them.

I guess the Union could offer him out on loan to any team they want but that just one of the many sub plots intwined in this whole mess.

Nobody has mentioned Sam because it was done to death when he signed.

Also, apparently RRW have asked for the final draft of the RSA to be available to them by 16:00 today.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think both him and the WRU were hoping a deal would be done but at the moment unless one of the Regions break ranks he won't be playing for any of them.

I guess the Union could offer him out on loan to any team they want but that just one of the many sub plots intwined in this whole mess.

Reading the Dragons 2014/15 season thread, maybe the Dragons could break ranks, after all there are a few who want more out and out opensides in the squad   

Whilst class players are always welcomed in any squad we don't need back rowers we have Powell, Faletau and Evans (1st choice backrow for me) then we have Cudd, Talei, Coombs and the Welsh U20s.

Now if there are any 1st class top notch props out there yes please.

We sure know how to push the self destruct button here in Wales...

Predicted years ago, that the "regional" set-up would mark the end of Welsh rugby. Didnt expect it would have taken so long, if I'm honest. But it gives me no joy in saying I was right.

If you think this is a mess now, just wait, its going to get a lot messier before it all finally ends in tears...   

That may well be the case No9 but Internationally we have had our most successful period though admittedly interspersed with doom and gloom

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ideal world solution, three teams, Probs, Poss, Hopefuls.  HQs, Cardiff (with games in ponty/Newport), Swansea (games in Llanelli / Bridgend) and Wrexham (games at PARC erias), the three teams alternate base every season.  That way we all get games, and we all have the best, average and worst team too route for too.  

Ideal world solution my backside.
The way forward is first of all Cardiff (obviously and goes without saying), Newport, Jacks and finally Terks.

For regional rugby to succeed attendances of over 10,000 must be targeted, Parc Eriais has a stand capable of holding just 2000 people, I haven't been to the brewery for some time but I doubt its much better. Taking games around the country just doesn't work as paid up season ticket holders have problems getting to games, so just stop buying tickets.

For the current regional set up to survive, the benefactors will have to walk away from their investments or Rog & Pickering will have to forgo their bonuses and as Turkeys don't vote for Xmas, that wont happen. An alternative must be found.

There are 3 rugby stadiums in Wales with suitable capacity: PYS, CAP and the Dave. Whilst the Liberty can also be considered it is a football stadium and with the success of the Swans and planned expansion, its not a great place to watch rugby when only 40% or less full (also whispers around Swansea that the Swans want the stadium to themselves). The Dave probably has the best atmosphere but the pitch and facilities are pants and its also shared with the Football side, so the logical solution is to have two regions (East & West) based at dedicated rugby facilities at PYS and CAP. PYS is only just across the Loughor River from Swansea with good road connections and CAP is easily accessible by train from most parts of the South East so access for fans should be fine.

bedfordwelsh wrote:That may well be the case No9 but Internationally we have had our most successful period though admittedly interspersed with doom and gloom

Can't disagree with that, but it's been a feast or famine, hasn't it.

Also, the regions have not performed in Europe, and apart from the Ospreys in the domestic league, not a brilliant showing from the other welsh regions.

I can't disagree with international results since 2005, but there's no evidence that it was Bourne out of the regional setup. It is more likely to be the coming through of good talented players at that period.

However, my point is that someone really has to kick the RRW and WRU up the ar$es as between them they will put the final nail in the coffin of professional rugby in Wales. Although some will not see this has a problem with our players just playing overseas, I say look at the fortunes of other rugby nations who follow this path, whether they want to or not. Look at the state of Welsh football... Do we really want to see rugby follow that path.... I don't, yet without common sense prevailing, it's the road we are on.

Seagultaf wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ideal world solution, three teams, Probs, Poss, Hopefuls.  HQs, Cardiff (with games in ponty/Newport), Swansea (games in Llanelli / Bridgend) and Wrexham (games at PARC erias), the three teams alternate base every season.  That way we all get games, and we all have the best, average and worst team too route for too.  

Ideal world solution my backside.
The way forward is first of all Cardiff (obviously and goes without saying), Newport, Jacks and finally Terks.

For regional rugby to succeed attendances of over 10,000 must be targeted, Parc Eriais has a stand capable of holding just 2000 people, I haven't been to the brewery for some time but I doubt its much better. Taking games around the country just doesn't work as paid up season ticket holders have problems getting to games, so just stop buying tickets.

For the current regional set up to survive, the benefactors will have to walk away from their investments or Rog & Pickering will have to forgo their bonuses and as Turkeys don't vote for Xmas, that wont happen. An alternative must be found.

There are 3 rugby stadiums in Wales with suitable capacity: PYS, CAP and the Dave. Whilst the Liberty can also be considered it is a football stadium and with the success of the Swans and planned expansion, its not a great place to watch rugby when only 40% or less full (also whispers around Swansea that the Swans want the stadium to themselves). The Dave probably has the best atmosphere but the pitch and facilities are pants and its also shared with the Football side, so the logical solution is to have two regions (East & West) based at dedicated rugby facilities at PYS and CAP. PYS is only just across the Loughor River from Swansea with good road connections and CAP is easily accessible by train from most parts of the South East so access for fans should be fine.

Dave Parade has a capacity of just over 9,000 since the new stand. The capacity went down. So is it really suitable?