Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

by geoff998rugby Tue 10 Jun 2014, 11:01 am

First topic message reminder :

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

by Irish Londoner Fri 08 Aug 2014, 2:56 pm

Seagultaf wrote:I dont disagree with the point you made. Unfortunately there is an extra Autumn test to play outside IRB regs, also the Regions recieve extra funding from this game, and they need more funds not less. The only alternative would be to slow down the loan payments on the Statdium, but as Roger Lewis's bonus is linked to this, so it wont happen!

I may have asked this before but if Lewis's bonus is linked to the speed at which the MS is paid off, surely it would be within the remit of the powers that be at the WRU to change his bonus targets to something else.
Obviously if the bloke is on performance related pay he's going to make sure he hits the targets to get it, same as anyone else does, but those targets can be changed if the rest of the WRU wanted them to be, e.g. instead of paying off the MS you have to get 10 players onto central contracts.
Whatever else the other problems with Lewis are, he can't be blamed for doing his best to achive the things his employers asked him to.

by Allty Fri 08 Aug 2014, 5:09 pm

Do we actually know if Lewis has a Stadium payment reduction bonus or is it just another rumour.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 08 Aug 2014, 5:17 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:IF and that is a big IF there is a new agreement then maybe it will have the same clause. But also at the same time the RFU did say

“The WRU is currently in negotiations with the regions regarding the Participation Agreement for the upcoming season.

“Once those negotiations have concluded, they will address the potential clash for Welsh clubs in Round 1 of the LV= Cup, the dates of which were agreed by all LV= Cup stakeholders back in April 2014.”

So I would assume that IF a deal is struck then these fixtures will be part of it.

I do agree with regards a few names on the list, as to whether or not they are going to feature much next year. I believe Samson is tied up for another few years (didn't he sign a 5yr deal end of season before last?), so he isn't a major issue as they can grab him in a few years time.

I don't see that there is much doubt that there will be an agreement and it will involve the Regions providing increased access to the players for test rugby outside IRB regs. Not so much of an issue this season with so many players now playing outside Wales. May be a problem in coming up with a competitive side for the extra game against South Africa at the end of November though! IF there is no participation agreement though, then the problem is solved as the Regions will not be entered into the Guinness League by the WRU so no fixture clash.

Samson is potentially the cornerstone of the Welsh pack for the next 10 years, clubs from across the border have already come chasing him, so he is IMO someone who needs to be tied to the Welsh set up ASAP and not rely on Regional contracts which as we have seen in recent years are easy to break.

No thanks. Less access and adhering to IRB regs is the way forward. The regs are defined for a reason and international rugby is supersaturated already.

I dont disagree with the point you made. Unfortunately there is an extra Autumn test to play outside IRB regs, also the Regions recieve extra funding from this game, and they need more funds not less. The only alternative would be to slow down the loan payments on the Statdium, but as Roger Lewis's bonus is linked to this, so it wont happen!

"Peanuts" apparently.

by Sin é Fri 08 Aug 2014, 5:30 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:IF and that is a big IF there is a new agreement then maybe it will have the same clause. But also at the same time the RFU did say

“The WRU is currently in negotiations with the regions regarding the Participation Agreement for the upcoming season.

“Once those negotiations have concluded, they will address the potential clash for Welsh clubs in Round 1 of the LV= Cup, the dates of which were agreed by all LV= Cup stakeholders back in April 2014.”

So I would assume that IF a deal is struck then these fixtures will be part of it.

I do agree with regards a few names on the list, as to whether or not they are going to feature much next year. I believe Samson is tied up for another few years (didn't he sign a 5yr deal end of season before last?), so he isn't a major issue as they can grab him in a few years time.

I don't see that there is much doubt that there will be an agreement and it will involve the Regions providing increased access to the players for test rugby outside IRB regs. Not so much of an issue this season with so many players now playing outside Wales. May be a problem in coming up with a competitive side for the extra game against South Africa at the end of November though! IF there is no participation agreement though, then the problem is solved as the Regions will not be entered into the Guinness League by the WRU so no fixture clash.

Samson is potentially the cornerstone of the Welsh pack for the next 10 years, clubs from across the border have already come chasing him, so he is IMO someone who needs to be tied to the Welsh set up ASAP and not rely on Regional contracts which as we have seen in recent years are easy to break.

No thanks. Less access and adhering to IRB regs is the way forward. The regs are defined for a reason and international rugby is supersaturated already.

I dont disagree with the point you made. Unfortunately there is an extra Autumn test to play outside IRB regs, also the Regions recieve extra funding from this game, and they need more funds not less. The only alternative would be to slow down the loan payments on the Statdium, but as Roger Lewis's bonus is linked to this, so it wont happen!

"Peanuts" apparently.

So 400K is peanuts?

by St John The Enforcer Fri 08 Aug 2014, 5:44 pm

I'd focking spend more on lunch ffs! Rolling Eyes

by Cardiff Dave Fri 08 Aug 2014, 6:01 pm

Sin é wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:IF and that is a big IF there is a new agreement then maybe it will have the same clause. But also at the same time the RFU did say

“The WRU is currently in negotiations with the regions regarding the Participation Agreement for the upcoming season.

“Once those negotiations have concluded, they will address the potential clash for Welsh clubs in Round 1 of the LV= Cup, the dates of which were agreed by all LV= Cup stakeholders back in April 2014.”

So I would assume that IF a deal is struck then these fixtures will be part of it.

I do agree with regards a few names on the list, as to whether or not they are going to feature much next year. I believe Samson is tied up for another few years (didn't he sign a 5yr deal end of season before last?), so he isn't a major issue as they can grab him in a few years time.

I don't see that there is much doubt that there will be an agreement and it will involve the Regions providing increased access to the players for test rugby outside IRB regs. Not so much of an issue this season with so many players now playing outside Wales. May be a problem in coming up with a competitive side for the extra game against South Africa at the end of November though! IF there is no participation agreement though, then the problem is solved as the Regions will not be entered into the Guinness League by the WRU so no fixture clash.

Samson is potentially the cornerstone of the Welsh pack for the next 10 years, clubs from across the border have already come chasing him, so he is IMO someone who needs to be tied to the Welsh set up ASAP and not rely on Regional contracts which as we have seen in recent years are easy to break.

No thanks. Less access and adhering to IRB regs is the way forward. The regs are defined for a reason and international rugby is supersaturated already.

I dont disagree with the point you made. Unfortunately there is an extra Autumn test to play outside IRB regs, also the Regions recieve extra funding from this game, and they need more funds not less. The only alternative would be to slow down the loan payments on the Statdium, but as Roger Lewis's bonus is linked to this, so it wont happen!

"Peanuts" apparently.

So 400K is peanuts?

Silly me. I meant "crumbs".
Gareth Davies, Drags Chief, 5min 50secs into the clip;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU0lO0ZqUGM

by Sin é Fri 08 Aug 2014, 6:48 pm

All he gives for what England gets are percentages (after costs). How much does the PRL teams get each (presuming it is divided between the 12 of them)?

He also fails to mention that SA will get about 800K for playing the fixture. Hiring the Millenium would be at least 1m for the day. Then player match fees etc. Maybe the Regions were not doing too badly after all.

(He also claims that without the Welsh Regions there would be no Champions Cup. I'm going to bookmark that - the Welsh claim they were responsible for killing off the Heineken Cup).

by HammerofThunor Fri 08 Aug 2014, 8:00 pm

The English clubs get about £1.15M per season each (there is a slight difference depending on the number of EPS players.

That compares to the full £1.5M given to each region per year for various things.

The English clubs need an average of 65% EQ players in the match day squads over the year. The Regions are limited to 8 NWQ in the team squad (which is about 65% if they all player every game).

The RFU play an extra AI every other year. The WRU play an extra game every year (even World Cup years) so double the number of games.

Release time is about the same although for England it's spread amongst 12 teams rather than 4 (although it's not an even distribution usually it's not more than about 5 from one team).

Overall the Regions are given an extra 350k a season but are much more heavily effected.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 08 Aug 2014, 8:12 pm

Sin é wrote:All he gives for what England gets are percentages (after costs). How much does the PRL teams get each (presuming it is divided between the 12 of them)?

He also fails to mention that SA will get about 800K for playing the fixture. Hiring the Millenium would be at least 1m for the day. Then player match fees etc. Maybe the Regions were not doing too badly after all.

(He also claims that without the Welsh Regions there would be no Champions Cup. I'm going to bookmark that - the Welsh claim they were responsible for killing off the Heineken Cup).

Dunno mate, but what is clear from that clip is that the Chief Exec of the Drags believes the 4 get "crumbs" out of the 4th AI. I would guess that the other chiefs feel the same way. How much does a 4th AI generate? Measured in mi££ions no doubt.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 08 Aug 2014, 8:38 pm

Allty wrote:Do we actually know if Lewis has a Stadium payment reduction bonus or is it just another rumour.

Good question Allty. I'd like to know the answer too.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 08 Aug 2014, 8:46 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The English clubs get about £1.15M per season each (there is a slight difference depending on the number of EPS players.

That compares to the full £1.5M given to each region per year for various things.

The English clubs need an average of 65% EQ players in the match day squads over the year. The Regions are limited to 8 NWQ in the team squad (which is about 65% if they all player every game).

The RFU play an extra AI every other year. The WRU play an extra game every year (even World Cup years) so double the number of games.

Release time is about the same although for England it's spread amongst 12 teams rather than 4 (although it's not an even distribution usually it's not more than about 5 from one team).

Overall the Regions are given an extra 350k a season but are much more heavily effected.

England have the odd, outside the IRB window game I believe. How much cash is generated and where does it go? I googled earlier and £7m appeared regarding an Aussie game which was supposed to be against Fiji.

by HammerofThunor Fri 08 Aug 2014, 9:43 pm

Every other year they have a 4th international. Basically not Lions or WC years. The profit is split with the premiership, bringing to total from the 8 year deal from £102M to about £110M. Over 8 years there would be 4 games so they get £2M per game (about)

by Cardiff Dave Fri 08 Aug 2014, 10:01 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Every other year they have a 4th international. Basically not Lions or WC years. The profit is split with the premiership, bringing to total from the 8 year deal from £102M to about £110M. Over 8 years there would be 4 games so they get £2M per game (about)

Computer says no.

by HammerofThunor Fri 08 Aug 2014, 11:42 pm

by wayne Sat 09 Aug 2014, 11:22 am

wayne wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wales Under-18s tour to South Africa under threat amid row between WRU and regions

WALES Under-18s' tour of South Africa this month is under threat amid the ongoing row between the Welsh Rugby Union and the four Welsh regions.

Players contracted with the Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues and Dragons have been stopped from training in preparation for a festival where Wales are set to go up against England, South Africa and France.

Regional Rugby Wales, the umbrella body that represents the regions, announced earlier this month that they would not release players to international competitions that were outside of the International Rugby Board window.

And although they allowed players to head to Glasgow to compete for Team Wales in the Commonwealth Games sevens, they are holding firm with their under-18s players.

Wales, under the stewardship of Allan Lewis, are due to fly out to South Africa on August 11, but for the last two weekends haven't been able to train together as a squad in preparation for the matches which are taking place across the Western Cape.

Wales are scheduled to play England in Cape Town on August 15, South Africa in George on August 19 and France in Stellenbosch on August 23.

But with little sign of the impasse between the governing body and regions ending, the WRU may be soon forced into making a decision whether to go ahead with the tour or not.

The row surrounds the failure of both parties to agree on a new participation agreement, which binds the regions to the union over matters such as funding, player release and overseas quotas.

Earlier this month, the regions described the negotiations as 'indescribably tortuous' and have said they will go it alone without union funding and not release their players for tournaments outside of IRB regulations, including the controversial fourth November international.

Further talks have been taking place this week, but the Post understands the regions and WRU are still some way from coming to any agreement.

Read more: http://www.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk/Wales-18s-tour-South-Africa-threat-amid-row-WRU/story-22042913-detail/story.html#ixzz392y6ImXI
Read more at http://www.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk/Wales-18s-tour-South-Africa-threat-amid-row-WRU/story-22042913-detail/story.html#kEGkr8wfJuSYeV39.99
Sad for the kids, but inevitable really, RRW had to make a line in the sand and stand firmly behind it together and this is what appears to be happening, the WRU will HAVE to ring fence the extra money or suffer the consequences.

Could there be peace in the not too distant future, on the Ospreys website they are quoting the number of Os representatives on this tour which is going on the 11th (Monday), they also name the full squad which includes players from all Regions.

by **George Carlin** Sun 10 Aug 2014, 10:10 am

Can we (Glasgow) take Sam Warbuton on a 1 year loan now please?

Don't tell me that we need to wait longer still?

by bedfordwelsh Sun 10 Aug 2014, 1:35 pm

George Carlin wrote:Can we (Glasgow) take Sam Warbuton on a 1 year loan now please?

Don't tell me that we need to wait longer still?

GC,

If the row between the Union and Regions isn't sorted and sorted soon then I can see the WRU loaning him to get game time otherwise where else will he play. If that was to happen then loaning him to another team in the Pro12 would seem more practical as we all have the same breaks in the season so he wouldn't get caught up in the inevitable Club v Country row.

by bedfordwelsh Sun 10 Aug 2014, 1:37 pm

Then again practical or logical are not words normally associated with the WRU.

by demosthenes Sun 10 Aug 2014, 4:40 pm

George Carlin wrote:Can we (Glasgow) take Sam Warbuton on a 1 year loan now please?

Don't tell me that we need to wait longer still?

Why? He'd only warm the bench, if that. Good idea from Scotland's POV, though!

by Neutralee Sun 10 Aug 2014, 7:43 pm

demosthenes wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Can we (Glasgow) take Sam Warbuton on a 1 year loan now please?

Don't tell me that we need to wait longer still?

Why? He'd only warm the bench, if that. Good idea from Scotland's POV, though!

Warm the bench??? Surely he'd be 'injured' for every game but the one or 2 leading up to the international window, like how he has done for Cardiff for the last 3/4 seasons?

by **George Carlin** Mon 11 Aug 2014, 4:22 pm

demosthenes wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Can we (Glasgow) take Sam Warbuton on a 1 year loan now please?

Don't tell me that we need to wait longer still?

Why? He'd only warm the bench, if that. Good idea from Scotland's POV, though!

Hmm. Current Lions captain v Chris Fusaro. I don't think that Sam would spend much time cutting the half time oranges.

On the other hand, a loose forward trio of 6. Harley 7. Warbuton 8. Strauss would be the best in the league.

Oh yes. I went there.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 12 Aug 2014, 1:01 pm

Warburton confirmed as not in squad for Blues friendly.

Good news.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 12 Aug 2014, 1:33 pm

For who?

by Stone Motif Tue 12 Aug 2014, 1:53 pm

George Carlin wrote:
demosthenes wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Can we (Glasgow) take Sam Warbuton on a 1 year loan now please?

Don't tell me that we need to wait longer still?

Why? He'd only warm the bench, if that. Good idea from Scotland's POV, though!
Hmm. Current Lions captain v Chris Fusaro. I don't think that Sam would spend much time cutting the half time oranges.

On the other hand, a loose forward trio of 6. Harley 7. Warbuton 8. Strauss would be the best in the league.

Oh yes. I went there.

If/when he fancies playing/recovers from injury.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 12 Aug 2014, 2:05 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:For who?

Welsh rugby long term.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 12 Aug 2014, 3:11 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:For who?

Welsh rugby long term.

I have to agree there, it is sad that it has come to this, but the whole attitude of burying heads in the sand with regards to him not being a Blues player anymore was never going to last.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 12 Aug 2014, 5:50 pm

If it works yes but at this moment in time I am at a sheer loss as to what is going to happen. Like most I thought it would have been sorted by now but we seem as far away from a solution now as ever.

by HammerofThunor Tue 12 Aug 2014, 5:54 pm

Next big kick will be the start of the season (missing proper games). Then it'll be the Welsh squad coming back for the weekend before the first game. Finally it'll be the South Africa game. Without doubt it will be sorted by then...it must be, right?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Aug 2014, 5:59 pm

As Warburton played only 6 games for Blues last season, not a surprise he is not in the squad for a friendly fixture.

I see that Blues list him in their 14/15 squad on the website.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 12 Aug 2014, 6:07 pm

Of course if they do pick him then it will be interesting to see how the other Regions react.

by HammerofThunor Tue 12 Aug 2014, 6:31 pm

It certainly would be. In fact I can see the WRU waiting to see if they do as they could break the RRW as a group.

by mr-bryns-attitude Tue 12 Aug 2014, 6:52 pm

blues coach Paul john today confirmed Warburton will not play for the blues until an agreement is reached between RRW and WRU,meanwhile, Adam jones is training with his old club Neath,the regions seem to be playing hardball.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 12 Aug 2014, 6:58 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:It certainly would be. In fact I can see the WRU waiting to see if they do as they could break the RRW as a group.

The Union would love nothing better than for the Blues to play him as they could then like you said they could use that to split the Regions and pit them against each other. They just said on news that the Regions had a legally binding contract not to play them, I thought it was just more of an understanding so if they did play them they themselves would be in breach of contract.

by Neutralee Tue 12 Aug 2014, 8:25 pm

So Warburton can't play for the Blues?

by bedfordwelsh Tue 12 Aug 2014, 8:31 pm

Nope nor any other Region if the WRU tried that approach. Well not for time being until this farce is sorted out

by Neutralee Tue 12 Aug 2014, 8:35 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Nope nor any other Region if the WRU tried that approach. Well not for time being until this farce is sorted out

How does that work? Who will he play for?

And whats happening with Adam Jones, surely he has got to get a contract for a season or 2?!

by bedfordwelsh Tue 12 Aug 2014, 9:11 pm

Jones is currently training with Neath, there is a contract for him on the table with the Os but dependant on a satisfactory settlement between Regions and Union (dont hold breath)

On the who he will Warbruton play for front well your guess is as good as mine or anyone elses.

I have suggested maybe he could be loaned out to the Aviva but apparently their clubs also have an agreement not to play any centrally contracted players.

He could go to France but would his body survive?

Maybe one of the other member teams of the Pro12 could loan him but again the Irish have strict NIQ standards.

One option which has been suggested is Bristol as the Aviva riling on contracted players not (by all accounts) affect the Championship.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 12 Aug 2014, 9:41 pm

Neutralee wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Nope nor any other Region if the WRU tried that approach. Well not for time being until this farce is sorted out

How does that work? Who will he play for?

The Pont?

by Cardiff Dave Tue 12 Aug 2014, 9:49 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:???

I was wondering what a single bog standard, common-or-garden, outside the window AI was worth to our respective unions and also whether Gareth Davies is correct when he claimed that the regions get "crumbs" aka £100k each.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 12 Aug 2014, 9:51 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:For who?

Welsh rugby long term.

Absolutely.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 12 Aug 2014, 10:03 pm

Neutralee wrote:So Warburton can't play for the Blues?

Not a Cardiff employee apparently, so no.

by Allty Tue 12 Aug 2014, 11:01 pm

This just has to be the most childish way of negotiation ever. But on the other hand its Wales

by Cardiff Dave Tue 12 Aug 2014, 11:21 pm

Allty wrote:This just has to be the most childish way of negotiation ever. But on the other hand its Wales

Quite right Allty. Come on Rog sort it FFS. You're paid well in excess of £300,000, so hurry up.

by Allty Wed 13 Aug 2014, 9:29 am

I think its all parties CD and there are massive egos involved on both sides.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 13 Aug 2014, 10:37 am

Allty wrote:I think its all parties CD and there are massive egos involved on both sides.

To be fair, think of it in terms of a normal every day work place. IF a rival company were to talk one of your employees out of working for you, and to jump ship to them. And offered to allow them to work at your company, possibly causing issue with your employees in the process. I personally would be unlikely to allow them onto my premises let alone work for me.

by VinceWLB Wed 13 Aug 2014, 10:54 am

You guys must be sure what you are doing.

At the end of the day what's happening to Warburton is kind of immoral, he wanted to play his rugby in Wales and as a reward he will not get gametime. He could easily have gone to an English or French club.

The least said about the way such a great servant like Adam Jone has been treated the better.

by Neutralee Wed 13 Aug 2014, 11:07 am

And theres me thinking the contract had been offered with all parties agreeing he'd play for the Blues.

What an absolute c##k up the Welsh are making of this, it's almost as if they are trying to destroy rugby in Wales, have the FAW planted a few folk at the ms or what?

by Blueschief Wed 13 Aug 2014, 11:48 am

According to Wales Online (AKA Western Fail)

Even though the Blues are desperate to involve the Lions flanker, they are snookered on two fronts - an inability to secure the requisite insurance for Warburton given that he isn't on their payroll, and the strict agreement with the other regions not to play anyone on a central contract.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 13 Aug 2014, 12:27 pm

Warburton made his bed. He has to lie in it now.
His agent advised him that this could happen. He still signed with the enemy.
The WRU competed with the Blues for his signature - now they face the consequences.

Heads should roll because of this. But nobody at Cardiff Blues is at fault.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 13 Aug 2014, 12:29 pm

[quote="Neutralee"]And theres me thinking the contract had been offered with all parties agreeing he'd play for the Blues.

NL,

In principle i think that was or is the deal if and when any agreement can be reached. Warburton seems to split opinion on both his playing ability and also his decision to sign the contract in the 1st place.

On his ability I think a full fit, injury free and on form Warburton is a class act but he is very injury prone and not fully fit a lot of the time, on the other issue I still wonder what deals were actually on the table for him. Was anyone from France or England after him? If they were then I think he showed great loyalty by signing the contract and staying in Wales unlike other who took the money. Or possibly the WRU deal was the only one available to him that allowed him to stay in Wales.

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