Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

bedfordwelsh wrote:  Was anyone from France or England after him?  If they were then I think he showed great loyalty by signing the contract and staying in Wales unlike other who took the money.  Or possibly the WRU deal was the only one available to him that allowed him to stay in Wales.

Not that I'm aware of. His agent made up a story that Toulon had offered big bucks but the reality is they sniffed around and then realised how much of the season he'd be missing so backed out.

The Blues offered him circa £200,000. I'm confident that if the WRU hadn't then competed against one of their own clubs and offered more, he'd be a Blues player now.

Same with Adam Jones and Ospreys. The WRU really are scum.

VinceWLB wrote:You guys must be sure what you are doing.

At the end of the day what's happening to Warburton is kind of immoral, he wanted to play his rugby in Wales and as a reward he will not get gametime. He could easily have gone to an English or French club.

The least said about the way such a great servant like Adam Jone has been treated the better.

That is total an utter tosh.

Sam Warburton had at least two offers that he could have taken in order to stay in wales. He had an offer of a contract form the Blues to play for the Blues, and he had an offer from the WRU to play for the WRU and not the Blues (the non-cc player thing was in force already by Easter '13 during the North saga). At the time when Sam signed his deal with the devil, there were a lot of us who were saying he will not be able to play for the Blues next season, and he will not be able to play in the Aviva etc, because of this deal. He had a decision, it was a very poor decision, but he made it and has to live with it.

And Adam Jones was also offered, at least, two deals that would have seen him remain in Wales, but he signed neither. The Ospreys had offered him a one year deal (regardless of the RW/WRU outcome) and Adam did not sign it as he wanted a two year deal. The Union offered him a central contract, but he did not sign that either. Since then the Union have pulled their contract offer away (and rightly so he is no longer the first choice tight-head at international level, and IMO at regional level either). The Ospreys have already put together their squad and can not afford to sign him unless they have extra cash (from the RRW/WRU piece process). Adam has also butt-loved himself by doing this deal in principle with Toulon for the next season, and turning down the Bristol/Sale deal.

There is nothing Immoral in the actions of the regions here. Maybe you could say that two players who were trying to play the system and get the best financial deal for themselves have unfortunately found out that they are not worth as much as they believed themselves to be, and it is a good example to young players coming through to realistically keep their feet on the ground and not allow their agents to push them too far.

I don't think his body would have lasted in France anyway. So he took the job with the most money wouldn't we or haven't we maybe all done that at the same time.

Yes the WRU was in the wrong to compete for players like that but things were falling apart between them and Regions long before this issue.

I think that, given the Regions had already long agreed not to play centrally contracted players, he was foolish not to get a contract from the Blues saying he would play for them. The fact they couldn't do this given the agreement with the other clubs (not to mention issues with the salary cap, would then have perhaps given him pause for contemplation.

His agent said he turned down offers from France (and England?) of up to £700k. But then who believes a word agents say? Their job (in regards to the media) is to cowpat to big up their player and interest in them as much as possible.

bedfordwelsh wrote:  So he took the job with the most money wouldn't we or haven't we maybe all done that at the same time.

That's fine. But just don't complain when people say "I told you so" when he's left without a club.

Yes the WRU was in the wrong to compete for players like that but things were falling apart between them and Regions long before this issue.

Which just highlights Sam's stupidity.

HammerofThunor wrote:

His agent said he turned down offers from France (and England?) of up to £700k.

There is no way anyone in their right mind would offer that money for a player who has historically played so few club games a season. It was grade a bullpoop.

I have been thinking about Sam Warburton's situation, I am not too sure how stupid a decision it was. Like many have said he hardly played regional rugby, so really he is not going to be any less match fit for the international side than before. And he is possibly less likely to get injured as he will get more rest-rehab time. And he is getting paid more. SO for Sam Warburton, personally, he may have made the best decision, providing he can train somewhere etc.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I have been thinking about Sam Warburton's situation, I am not too sure how stupid a decision it was.  Like many have said he hardly played regional rugby, so really he is not going to be any less match fit for the international side than before.  And he is possibly less likely to get injured as he will get more rest-rehab time.  And he is getting paid more.  SO for Sam Warburton, personally, he may have made the best decision, providing he can train somewhere etc.

He's got to play rugby before the AIs and 6N mate. There's no substitute for match practice, even though Gatland chucks these boys in at 505 and with no regards to player welfare.

Chunky, I agree he should play rugby before hand, but I doubt he will. OR maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers? He can join Anscombe in being dropped straight into the team without needing to prove himself.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers?  .

I cannot express how much I want this to happen.

How good is he at 7's?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers?  .

I cannot express how much I want this to happen.

I was gonna say Ponty, just for giggles   

Reminds me of Nigel Owen's comments.

The first game he reffed after the 2013 Springboks/All Blacks Tri Nations decider was something like Aberavon against Cross Keys.

A journalist asked him after that game which he'd enjoyed more.

Owens started with, "well, Aberavon have come on a lot this year...".

 

I don't think we should blame young players IMHO its down to the egos on both warring sides ....two groups of adults who should know a lot more about negotiations

Chunky Norwich wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:  So he took the job with the most money wouldn't we or haven't we maybe all done that at the same time.

That's fine. But just don't complain when people say "I told you so" when he's left without a club.

Yes the WRU was in the wrong to compete for players like that but things were falling apart between them and Regions long before this issue.

Which just highlights Sam's stupidity.

Has he complained though, well publicly at least I think he's keeping himself pretty quiet and out of limelight at the moment.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

His agent said he turned down offers from France (and England?) of up to £700k.

There is no way anyone in their right mind would offer that money for a player who has historically played so few club games a season. It was grade a bullpoop.

Maybe the agent exaggerates the money involved but Toulon threw the big bucks at Juan Smith when he was actually all the way retired due to injury. He made the comeback, aye, but Toulon can afford to take risks like that and so can other French clubs. These guys are not the shrewdest purchasers, they throw money around every season and if a signing doesn't work out it doesn't hurt them because they already have so much depth and quality. In other words, you're dreaming if you think they'd turn their nose up at Sam Warburton.

They want big names every summer for commercial reasons and marketing reasons not just rugby reasons- not to mention ego reasons for some of these owners... And the Captain of a team that has won two Grand Slams and got to a World Cup Final is just the kind of prestige signing that ticks all of those boxes, injury worries be damned.

I would be absolutely stunned if he didn't have other offers on the table from some big name clubs and if they weren't at the very least equivalent to the WRU offer if not more.

I find it interesting though that the Regions and RRW have no problem fielding sevens players on central contracts with the WRU but that Warburton can't play. I know they tried to justify this by saying that sevens players are not included in the agreement but are they not splitting hairs at this stage?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

His agent said he turned down offers from France (and England?) of up to £700k.

There is no way anyone in their right mind would offer that money for a player who has historically played so few club games a season. It was grade a bullpoop.

Toulon paid big bucks for Jonny Wilkinson with even a worse injury history.

Toulon were also looking to sign both Sean O'Brien & Jamie Heaslip so obviously were on the lookout for some more backrow players.

Welshmushroom wrote:I find it interesting though that the Regions and RRW have no problem fielding sevens players on central contracts with the WRU but that Warburton can't play.  I know they tried to justify this by saying that sevens players are not included in the agreement but are they not splitting hairs at this stage?

I think the Regions will lose a lot of support over this after all centrally contracted is centrally contracted and for me it goes to prove that the Regions are as much to blame as the Union in all the mess.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:I find it interesting though that the Regions and RRW have no problem fielding sevens players on central contracts with the WRU but that Warburton can't play.  I know they tried to justify this by saying that sevens players are not included in the agreement but are they not splitting hairs at this stage?

I think the Regions will lose a lot of support over this after all centrally contracted is centrally contracted and for me it goes to prove that the Regions are as much to blame as the Union in all the mess.

Dodger will undoubtedly be as pleased as Punch if that happened.
The thing is though, why did Dodger think it was a good idea to engineer all this in the middle of a bitter dispute? Seems a bit mad to me.

Why blame one person CD. All are to blame ..........except the players

Allty wrote:Why blame one person CD.  All are to blame ..........except the players

Coz Dodger's the boss and the buck stops with him or should do.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers?  .

I cannot express how much I want this to happen.

I was gonna say Ponty, just for giggles   

Cheeky. How about a different club every week? That would be fun.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers?  .

I cannot express how much I want this to happen.

Could the Memorial Ground cope?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers?  .

I cannot express how much I want this to happen.

I was gonna say Ponty, just for giggles   

Cheeky. How about a different club every week? That would be fun.

Ponty don't need him. We already got Rhys Shellard

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers?  .

I cannot express how much I want this to happen.

I was gonna say Ponty, just for giggles   

Cheeky. How about a different club every week? That would be fun.

Ponty don't need him. We already got Rhys Shellard

Played for Cardiff on the weekend in the 7s at the Twickenham Stoop.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers?  .

I cannot express how much I want this to happen.

I was gonna say Ponty, just for giggles   

Cheeky. How about a different club every week? That would be fun.

Ponty don't need him. We already got Rhys Shellard

Played for Cardiff on the weekend in the 7s at the Twickenham Stoop.

Firsts (Blues) or seconds (Blue and Blacks)? Has he gone back to Cardiff then?

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:maybe a game or two for Glam Wanderers?  .

I cannot express how much I want this to happen.

I was gonna say Ponty, just for giggles   

Cheeky. How about a different club every week? That would be fun.

Ponty don't need him. We already got Rhys Shellard

Played for Cardiff on the weekend in the 7s at the Twickenham Stoop.

Firsts (Blues) or seconds (Blue and Blacks)? Has he gone back to Cardiff then?

No idea.

Cardiff Dave wrote:No idea.

Welsh rugby for you hey

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

His agent said he turned down offers from France (and England?) of up to £700k.

There is no way anyone in their right mind would offer that money for a player who has historically played so few club games a season. It was grade a bullpoop.

Maybe the agent exaggerates the money involved but Toulon threw the big bucks at Juan Smith when he was actually all the way retired due to injury. He made the comeback, aye, but Toulon can afford to take risks like that and so can other French clubs. These guys are not the shrewdest purchasers, they throw money around every season and if a signing doesn't work out it doesn't hurt them because they already have so much depth and quality. In other words, you're dreaming if you think they'd turn their nose up at Sam Warburton.

They want big names every summer for commercial reasons and marketing reasons not just rugby reasons- not to mention ego reasons for some of these owners... And the Captain of a team that has won two Grand Slams and got to a World Cup Final is just the kind of prestige signing that ticks all of those boxes, injury worries be damned.

I would be absolutely stunned if he didn't have other offers on the table from some big name clubs and if they weren't at the very least equivalent to the WRU offer if not more.

Agreed. My big fear for Sam is that the WRU will prevent him for playing for any other club on a one year loan deal (which would be the most sensible approach, especially leading into a RWC year) out of pride or some misconceived sense of proprietory entitlement. That would be a disaster for Welsh rugby - you would lose a huge amount of conditioning just playing club rugby for a year.
 
Having given the matter careful thought, the equation and solution is obvious, as far as I can see:
 +  =

What's really sad is that this can potentially impact the actual playing side of the national team. It's also playing russian roulette as well when you think about it for everyone in wales.

We know that a lot of the money made is through prize money, gates etc. It cannot be maintained though if wales is not successful nationally. We all remember the 90's in terms of how bad our national side was. If the national side returns to that era the WRU will end up with even less money to spend.

I know the Regions want more from the WRU but if they start messing with the actual playing side of the national team it could end up in them getting less in the long run.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

His agent said he turned down offers from France (and England?) of up to £700k.

There is no way anyone in their right mind would offer that money for a player who has historically played so few club games a season. It was grade a bullpoop.

Toulon paid big bucks for Jonny Wilkinson with even a worse injury history.

Toulon were also looking to sign both Sean O'Brien & Jamie Heaslip so obviously were on the lookout for some more backrow players.

Jonny Wilkinson doesn't play international rugby.

Toulon didn't sign Sean O'Brien and Jamie Heaslip. Just like they didn't sign Sam Warburton.

Unlike Adam Jones, at least Warburton got paid at the end of last month.

LondonTiger wrote:Unlike Adam Jones, at least Warburton got paid at the end of last month.

Haven't the Ospreys allegedly been paying him the last few months even though he isn't on their books?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Unlike Adam Jones, at least Warburton got paid at the end of last month.

Haven't the Ospreys allegedly been paying him the last few months even though he isn't on their books?

Officially he is unemployed by Ospreys as of 30th June. Pretty sure that employmenmt law would mean that they cannot then continue to pay him directly without him counting as having a contract. Perhaps they are paying a sum to Neath?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Unlike Adam Jones, at least Warburton got paid at the end of last month.

Haven't the Ospreys allegedly been paying him the last few months even though he isn't on their books?

>>>>>>>>>

Jones' regional side Ospreys continued to pay him in June, despite his contract with them officially expiring in May

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/235667.html

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Unlike Adam Jones, at least Warburton got paid at the end of last month.

Haven't the Ospreys allegedly been paying him the last few months even though he isn't on their books?

>>>>>>>>>

Jones' regional side Ospreys continued to pay him in June, despite his contract with them officially expiring in May

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/235667.html

Cheers for posting the link, I knew I had seen it somewhere, but I am just too gosh darn lazy to bother looking stuff up   

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:No idea.

Welsh rugby for you hey

I wouldn't put it quite like that Steff, but I get what you mean.

Roger might as well have wrote:What's really sad is that this can potentially impact the actual playing side of the national team.  It's also playing russian roulette as well when you think about it for everyone in wales.

We know that a lot of the money made is through prize money, gates etc.  It cannot be maintained though if wales is not successful nationally.  We all remember the 90's in terms of how bad our national side was. If the national side returns to that era the WRU will end up with even less money to spend.  

I know the Regions want more from the WRU but if they start messing with the actual playing side of the national team it could end up in them getting less in the long run.  

That's the problem Rog. Unlike everyone else on the planet you don't seem able to comprehend that a strong professional tier free from the hamstringing it's had from your endless feckwittery might actually be in the. Best. Interests. Of. All. Welsh. Rugby...including your precious Team Wales...do us all a favour and take a flying fornication at a rolling doughnut

The thing is even in the 90s the National stadium was still full for home games and thats all the Union care about, they don't care if its full of real rugby fans or the pink hat wearing brigade who are only there for a p up in Cardiff on a Saturday. All they care about is if its full.

Am not sure if this has been asked or answered so apologies either BUT lets say no agreement is reached can (whether they would is another matter) but can the Regions actually stop their players playing for Wales. I know they wouldn't have to release them for the game outside the window but could they stop them for games inside the window?

They can but they'd face sanctions. This can range from point deductions, relegation or being kicked out of union.

Hammer,

Relegated from where
Kicked out of the Union - They pretty much near that anyway

Also are the Regions guaranteed entry into the new Euro comp indefinitely or again could the Union choose their entrants. I really hope it never comes to this but we seem just as far away from a settlement as ever with the season what 3 weeks away.

Well it would depend on what competition there were in right? Regions can't be relegated so the equivalent would be just dissolution. And it's not sanctions from the WRU, it's from the IRB. So they wouldn't be able to compete in the Euro cups either. Basically it's effectively suicide. They might be able to challenge the legality of the IRB regulation but that would take time and they wouldn't last.

I understand the IRB issue but if they have no dealings with the Unions anyway say to no deal being struck would they still be in breach. All what if I know but that is where it seems we are still at.

The IRB don't get involved with the extra agreement. That's between the team and the union. If there is no additional agreement it comes down to IRB Reg 9, so all on the IRB.

The crux of the problem (with a nod to Gwlad):

http://gwladrugby.com/

People like Dai are calling the shots, not the pro game.

So we are still at starting point one - the Regions need the WRU to function, however the WRU don't need the Regions, they need sides to represent Wales in the league and cups and to develop players for the international stage; I think they would "like" that to be the Regions but they dont "need" to be them.
 
The whole forking thing is a complete shambles from both sides and is going to have (probably already is) on the whole future of rugby in Wales - at a point when Cardiff City are bouyant despite relegation, Swansea are more than holding their own in the Premier League and Welsh athletes and para athletes are getting lots of publicity for some great performances, Welsh rugby is on the verge of dissappearing up its own fundament.

Irish Londoner wrote:So we are still at starting point one - the Regions need the WRU to function, however the WRU don't need the Regions, they need sides to represent Wales in the league and cups and to develop players for the international stage; I think they would "like" that to be the Regions but they dont "need" to be them.
 
The whole forking thing is a complete shambles from both sides and is going to have (probably already is) on the whole future of rugby in Wales - at a point when Cardiff City are bouyant despite relegation, Swansea are more than holding their own in the Premier League and Welsh athletes and para athletes are getting lots of publicity for some great performances, Welsh rugby is on the verge of dissappearing up its own fundament.

Until they can afford to bankroll new Rogions, complete with all the attendant infrastructure and costs, they absolutely do need the Regions

They don't need four regions though - could probably afford to run 2.

Sin é wrote:They don't need four regions though - could probably afford to run 2.

Come off it