Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

No, its their assets minus their liabilities. Their working capital.

This amount would be greater if they reduced their payments on the Millenium loan.

Sin é wrote:No, its their assets minus their liabilities. Their working capital.

This amount would be greater if they reduced their payments on the Millenium loan.

That's not cash though. That is going to include other assets.

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:FES, the IRFU has no debt (and the Aviva is only about 3 years old)!

Well it does if you believe it's latest audited accounts (page 42 and footnote 11).

Sounds like a bank overdraft to cover cashflow. It states it will be repaid by

That wasn't what I was talking about though. I was referring to the debt within Irish rugby, and not simply sitting at parent company level

Balance at 30 April 2014 was 70,814,490 Euro (page 27).

The IRFU could bail the clubs out, but they would be wrong to do so.

(The WRU has 12m I think which the Regions want)!

It's a bank loan, not an overdraft facility. It is still debt, so be careful not to say the IRFU has no debt.

Just because the IRFU could liquidate enough cash to bail out the clubs does not cover off the point I'm making, which is that there is a large amount of debt in Irish rugby. This thread is about Wales trying to find a solution, and not just at WFU level but for all of Welsh rugby, and finding a structure that works for them. Whilst the IRFU may have got its act together (and the SRU has recently achieved a more solid financial footing as well), you cannot ignore what is going on at ground level. Both need to be managed well. As I said above, whichever structure you have it needs to be well managed. I think, by and large, the Irish model has worked for them. It is not perfect though.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:FES, the IRFU has no debt (and the Aviva is only about 3 years old)!

Well it does if you believe it's latest audited accounts (page 42 and footnote 11).

Sounds like a bank overdraft to cover cashflow. It states it will be repaid by

That wasn't what I was talking about though. I was referring to the debt within Irish rugby, and not simply sitting at parent company level

Balance at 30 April 2014 was 70,814,490 Euro (page 27).

The IRFU could bail the clubs out, but they would be wrong to do so.

(The WRU has 12m I think which the Regions want)!

It's a bank loan, not an overdraft facility. It is still debt, so be careful not to say the IRFU has no debt.

They say it will be paid off by September 2014 (i.e. within the next couple of weeks).

Just because the IRFU could liquidate enough cash to bail out the clubs does not cover off the point I'm making, which is that there is a large amount of debt in Irish rugby. This thread is about Wales trying to find a solution, and not just at WFU level but for all of Welsh rugby, and finding a structure that works for them. Whilst the IRFU may have got its act together (and the SRU has recently achieved a more solid financial footing as well), you cannot ignore what is going on at ground level. Both need to be managed well. As I said above, whichever structure you have it needs to be well managed. I think, by and large, the Irish model has worked for them. It is not perfect though.

From where Ireland has been with regard to the economic downturn, 24m is a pittance between a hundred clubs. That was also two years ago.

The clubs are responsible for themselves. They have to sort out the mess (and I think they are doing it). Fergus Slattery was getting clubs to sign a charter that there would be no pay for play anymore. For example, Blackrock College which was over 1m in debt were planning to sell their ground to one of the GAA clubs and then agree a ground share with them. I think they were even going to make money on the deal.

My claim for the IRFU was that they were the best run Union in the NH. I didn't say they were perfect.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:No, its their assets minus their liabilities. Their working capital.

This amount would be greater if they reduced their payments on the Millenium loan.

That's not cash though. That is going to include other assets.

All I know is that Welsh posters were claiming that any surplus (which seemed to be 12m) that the Welsh Union had should be given to the Regions.

Sin é wrote:

All I know is that Welsh posters were claiming that any surplus (which seemed to be 12m) that the Welsh Union had should be given to the Regions.

"Give us all your money" ? I don't think is a reasonable demand.

What I do think is that the WRU currently allocates £6.6m a year of their money to the Welsh profesisonal teams in return for services, which is about £4m short of the going rate that we see in Scotland, Ireland and England.

[quote="Sin é"]

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's a bank loan, not an overdraft facility. It is still debt, so be careful not to say the IRFU has no debt.

They say it will be paid off by September 2014 (i.e. within the next couple of weeks).
[quote]

Well they actually say that they "expect" to pay it off by September 2014, which is different to saying that it "will" be paid off, and it doesn't detract from that fact that the IFRU is not "debt free", as you claimed.

However, this thread is about Welsh rugby, and trying to work out the best structure and solution to take Welsh rugby forward.

The biggest lesson I'd recommend from the Scottish experience is to listen to what the fans want. The income will come from families and supporters turning up to watch the game, week in week out. If the product on the field is something that they will turn away from, as has been the case in Scotland, then you're fighting a losing battle.

The other lesson would be to take great care in managing the arrival of overseas players. A good signing can take the side forward and add quality to the side (Elsom, Muller and Howlett being great examples of how the Irish have utilised good signings), but bad signings can be fatal to the interest of supporters, the quality of rugby being played and in stunting the development of young local talent.

Yes, I'll be very interested to see the reaction at Cardiff if Anscombe keeps Rhys Patchell out of the 10 shirt for the entire season.

George Carlin wrote:Yes, I'll be very interested to see the reaction at Cardiff if Anscombe keeps Rhys Patchell out of the 10 shirt for the entire season.

Won't one of them be shifted to FB now 1/2P has gone?

I remember a mate of mine raging about SNK, Cardiff replacing a beloved home grown 10 with a hugely overpriced guy with 'a few Aus caps'. That did not go down well.

Same mate however still rages that Tom James has been let go and Chri Czeki (Sorry about spelling) still seems to be on the payroll.

I won't tell you how he feels about Lloyd Williams, the Ponty players stepping up, or Peter Thomas.

I admire the guy in his passion, but he does tend to let his emotion get the better of him, reason seems to fly out the window, and if you give him an ear...

[quote="funnyExiledScot"]

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's a bank loan, not an overdraft facility. It is still debt, so be careful not to say the IRFU has no debt.

They say it will be paid off by September 2014 (i.e. within the next couple of weeks).

Well they actually say that they "expect" to pay it off by September 2014, which is different to saying that it "will" be paid off, and it doesn't detract from that fact that the IFRU is not "debt free", as you claimed.

However, this thread is about Welsh rugby, and trying to work out the best structure and solution to take Welsh rugby forward.

The biggest lesson I'd recommend from the Scottish experience is to listen to what the fans want. The income will come from families and supporters turning up to watch the game, week in week out. If the product on the field is something that they will turn away from, as has been the case in Scotland, then you're fighting a losing battle.

The other lesson would be to take great care in managing the arrival of overseas players. A good signing can take the side forward and add quality to the side (Elsom, Muller and Howlett being great examples of how the Irish have utilised good signings), but bad signings can be fatal to the interest of supporters, the quality of rugby being played and in stunting the development of young local talent.

How much exactly is the IRFU debt?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

However, this thread is about Welsh rugby, and trying to work out the best structure and solution to take Welsh rugby forward.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:It is absolutely atypical of the Irish mindset. And especially regarding the Welsh rugby climate, of which they are ever so keen to butt their tinker noses in to, but evidently don't have a scooby do about.

Interestingly, a guy on a Leinster blog just posted about considering a B&I League.

He probably hasn't a scooby do, but sure he tried.

Not sure he is from the travelling community though. Rugby would not be a big sport among Travellers

http://bluestalktv.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/a-welsh-solution-to-a-welsh-problem/

Interesting piece, but it fails to recognise any of the commercial problems the regions face due to being hamstrung by the celtic accord. That is part of the reason a new league would be nice. The Irish love to quote the old "They feel that playing v English teams week in week out would solve their issues with crowd size" - as if that's the only issue.

I'm all for trying to help the Welsh resolve their conflict (Even if I don't have a clue) Perhaps a bit more positivity might help?

At least that blog guy put something forward. More than I have heard from Chunky. Always with the negativity and anyone who offers any opinion is told to p1ss off because they have no clue about Welsh rugby. (I never see you trying to educate us about Welsh rugby bar the odd snide comment btw)

Welsh rugby needs someone to come up with ideas (and fast) and both sides need to be prepared to explore them.

It seems the battle is always lost before it begins because one side focuses on the negative about the other and how they might react.

"There is no point in talking to y about x because they will only say z" type scenario.

If posters came up with solutions rather than slagging perhaps it would help

PS. While we are on the subject of slagging, I'd love to hear you say that racist stuff to a certain Scarlets tight head.....

You can look it up yourself. I've told you what page it's on.

Let's get back to Welsh rugby and the topic in hand.

funnyExiledScot wrote:You can look it up yourself. I've told you what page it's on.

Let's get back to Welsh rugby and the topic in hand.

The note you refer to doesn't give an amount. Sounds like a provision in case debtors default.

11. Bank loans
Bank loans are secured by an all sums mortgage and charge over certain properties owned by the Union. The loan is expected to be repaid by 30 September 2014. However the terms of the agreement state that the loan is repayable on demand. On that basis,
the loan was reflected as due within one year as at 30 April 2013.

It could refer to a loan they took out for a carpark (10m) which seems to be just about paid off now. The IRFU owns the subsidiary that owns the carpark!

(See note 10)

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:You can look it up yourself. I've told you what page it's on.

Let's get back to Welsh rugby and the topic in hand.

The note you refer to doesn't give an amount. Sounds like a provision in case debtors default.

11. Bank loans
Bank loans are secured by an all sums mortgage and charge over certain properties owned by the Union. The loan is expected to be repaid by 30 September 2014. However the terms of the agreement state that the loan is repayable on demand. On that basis,
the loan was reflected as due within one year as at 30 April 2013.

It could refer to a loan they took out for a carpark (10m) which seems to be just about paid off now. The IRFU owns the subsidiary that owns the carpark!

(See note 10)

I referred you to page 42. The number is EURO 19,282,048.

Let's move off this topic for the sake of my sanity and everyone else. You said there was no debt. There is. There's really not much more to discuss.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:You can look it up yourself. I've told you what page it's on.

Let's get back to Welsh rugby and the topic in hand.

The note you refer to doesn't give an amount. Sounds like a provision in case debtors default.

11. Bank loans
Bank loans are secured by an all sums mortgage and charge over certain properties owned by the Union. The loan is expected to be repaid by 30 September 2014. However the terms of the agreement state that the loan is repayable on demand. On that basis,
the loan was reflected as due within one year as at 30 April 2013.

It could refer to a loan they took out for a carpark (10m) which seems to be just about paid off now. The IRFU owns the subsidiary that owns the carpark!

(See note 10)

I referred you to page 42. The number is EURO 19,282,048.

Let's move off this topic for the sake of my sanity and everyone else. You said there was no debt. There is. There's really not much more to discuss.

Page 42 of the Annual Report (April 2014) is about Pension Commitments. The figure 19,282,048 is not on that page.
However, it comes up as a liability in April 2013 (bank loan). That liability is now reduced to 7,082,496 in 2014 and presumably is being paid off by September.

This is a link to the 2014 annual report (p 28) for Union Balance Sheet where you will see the IRFU's figures for April 2014.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFUAnnualReport201314.pdf

So there is debt.....

funnyExiledScot wrote:So there is debt.....

Their reserves (60m) more than covers any short-term loan/working capital they have (which will be paid off within a year). They seem to have had no bother paying off more than half (12m) of it last year and 2013 was a poor year.

I give up.

Ah lads! What about the poor aul Welsh? Who gives a sh1t whether the IRFU have a bank loan or not.

Get innovating on some Welsh solutions ffs.

Is Peter Thomas bankrolling the investment in the Cardiff Blues- Mark Hammett, Anscombe, Jones etc?

They look well placed to be the best Welsh side next year.

Notch wrote:Is Peter Thomas bankrolling the investment in the Cardiff Blues- Mark Hammett, Anscombe, Jones etc?

They look well placed to be the best Welsh side next year.

maybe the WRU are about to throw a few extra pounds the regions way ? Peter Thomas and co have gone really quiet recently which is always a good sign.

Peter Thomas is splashing the cash that is left over from Bradley, 1/2p & SW

Blues do have a good squad on paper. I'm still not overly convinced by their scrum though, even with the signings they've bought. At least it's probably stronger than ours still though   

Wasn't there meant to be some WRU press conference yesterday?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wasn't there meant to be some WRU press conference yesterday?  

It was to announce a new WRU sponsor

and plane

Really?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Really?

Like Uni Challenge, no conferring allowed apparently.

gcBlues wrote:Peter Thomas is splashing the cash that is left over from Bradley, 1/2p & SW

& Harry.

Didn't Cardiff Blues get a rake of money off BT for the naming rights to the stadium? That possibly has more to do with these signings than anything else..... Maybe.

(Waits for ACTUAL Welsh person to give permission to think this)

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Didn't Cardiff Blues get a rake of money off BT for the naming rights to the stadium? That possibly has more to do with these signings than anything else..... Maybe.

(Waits for ACTUAL Welsh person to give permission to think this)

Permission denied!!! It is all a big WRU/Blues power couple deal, in the summer after next season, the Blues will announce they have new owners and that the new owners want to change the kit colour to a lucky red, and also change the badge to a Dragon (or three feathers)!   

Although to be fair the Blues have had a fair bit of cash come their way via the BT deal, added to that they culled a few last summer and this summer. Also, and this is just my cynical mind, Adam Jones was unemployed, so they may have picked him up slightly cheaper seeing as the season is what two-three weeks away.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Didn't Cardiff Blues get a rake of money off BT for the naming rights to the stadium? That possibly has more to do with these signings than anything else..... Maybe.

(Waits for ACTUAL Welsh person to give permission to think this)

I really wish you lot would do some research before you post such crap, at the time of the Stadium deal, the shirt sponsorship deals were also done by the Regions and all the money was to be shared equally

wayne wrote:

I really wish you lot would do some research before you post such crap

zero chance.

Nice way to prove his point for him wayne   

So does anyone think there is a chance that the WRU are trying to form a Super-Super Club with the Cardiff Blues? Basically it wouldn't suprise me if they eventually shut down Newport and the Gwent area becomes part the Blues who will then be the only fully profesional team in East Wales

Steffan wrote:So does anyone think there is a chance that the WRU are trying to form a Super-Super Club with the Cardiff Blues? Basically it wouldn't suprise me if they eventually shut down Newport and the Gwent area becomes part the Blues who will then be the only fully profesional team in East Wales

no   

That's fantasy stuff. How are they going to "shut down Newport"? The only people that can do that are NATO.

Steffan wrote:So does anyone think there is a chance that the WRU are trying to form a Super-Super Club with the Cardiff Blues? Basically it wouldn't suprise me if they eventually shut down Newport and the Gwent area becomes part the Blues who will then be the only fully profesional team in East Wales

That sounds as pie in the sky as Valleys Rugby, to be honest.

Chunky Norwich wrote:no   

That's fantasy stuff. How are they going to "shut down Newport"? The only people that can do that are NATO

Personally I think NATO will keep Newport open as tourist attraction. What Chernobyl looked like before the disaster. That being said some of the mutants that walk around the town centre might confuse people...

Back to ruby...personally I think the NGD will be the first pro club to go if the WRU do start making changes/not dishing out money. Cardiff Blues will be the last. So I wouldn't be suprised if making the Gwent area as part of the Blues did happen at some point. Maybe they won't but I wouldn't bet against it

Notch wrote:Nice way to prove his point for him wayne   

Notch, this is why I rarely post (IIRC only once), that I've only posted on an Irish topic, and that was to ask a genuine question. I don't know enough about the intracacies of Irish Rugby Politics to offer an informed comment so I don't. I just wish that some of your countrymen would do the same. I don't include yourself in that as I normally find you level headed and generally well informed.

Risca Rev wrote:

Steffan wrote:So does anyone think there is a chance that the WRU are trying to form a Super-Super Club with the Cardiff Blues? Basically it wouldn't suprise me if they eventually shut down Newport and the Gwent area becomes part the Blues who will then be the only fully profesional team in East Wales

That sounds as pie in the sky as Valleys Rugby, to be honest.

Are you actually capable of making a constructive comment without attacking Valleys Rugby? It's getting boring now just like yourself

I am not even saying this is definitely going to happen but the way things are going it wouldn't suprise me that's all I am saying

So on what basis would you say that the WRU will NEVER shut down the Dragons then boring boy?

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:Nice way to prove his point for him wayne   

Notch, this is why I rarely post (IIRC only once), that I've only  posted on an Irish topic, and that was to ask a genuine question. I don't know enough about the intracacies of Irish Rugby Politics to offer an informed comment so I don't. I just wish that some of your countrymen would do the same. I don't include yourself in that as I normally find you level headed and generally well informed.

He only speculated that selling the naming rights to the Arms Park to BT has allowed the Blues to increase their budget slightly, which is a separate development to the BT sponsorship for all four regions. Hardly worth jumping down his throat!

wayne wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Didn't Cardiff Blues get a rake of money off BT for the naming rights to the stadium? That possibly has more to do with these signings than anything else..... Maybe.

(Waits for ACTUAL Welsh person to give permission to think this)

I really wish you lot would do some research before you post such crap, at the time of the Stadium deal, the shirt sponsorship deals were also done by the Regions and all the money was to be shared equally

You have lost me. What bearing do shirt sponsorship deals have on a naming rights deal? Did the Blues throw in the cash from their naming along with them?

Educate me o great one so that I may learn at your knee.

Otherwise I will be doomed to "not have a clue" for the rest of my days

Notch wrote:

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:Nice way to prove his point for him wayne   

Notch, this is why I rarely post (IIRC only once), that I've only  posted on an Irish topic, and that was to ask a genuine question. I don't know enough about the intracacies of Irish Rugby Politics to offer an informed comment so I don't. I just wish that some of your countrymen would do the same. I don't include yourself in that as I normally find you level headed and generally well informed.

He only speculated that selling the naming rights to the Arms Park to BT has allowed the Blues to increase their budget slightly, which is a separate development to the BT sponsorship for all four regions. Hardly worth jumping down his throat!

Notch, Cardiff Blues did not make 1 penny more than the other Regions over the naming rights and the shirt deals, even though the Ospreys only have BT as their main sponsor on our home shirt, and have a different main named sponsor on our away shirt, these deals were all done under the auspices of RRW, this was reported at the time of the deal.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

wayne wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Didn't Cardiff Blues get a rake of money off BT for the naming rights to the stadium? That possibly has more to do with these signings than anything else..... Maybe.

(Waits for ACTUAL Welsh person to give permission to think this)

I really wish you lot would do some research before you post such crap, at the time of the Stadium deal, the shirt sponsorship deals were also done by the Regions and all the money was to be shared equally

You have lost me. What bearing do shirt sponsorship deals have on a naming rights deal? Did the Blues throw in the cash from their naming along with them?

Educate me o great one so that I may learn at your knee.

Otherwise I will be doomed to "not have a clue" for the rest of my days

Read post above pupil

Steffan wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Steffan wrote:So does anyone think there is a chance that the WRU are trying to form a Super-Super Club with the Cardiff Blues? Basically it wouldn't suprise me if they eventually shut down Newport and the Gwent area becomes part the Blues who will then be the only fully profesional team in East Wales

That sounds as pie in the sky as Valleys Rugby, to be honest.

Are you actually capable of making a constructive comment without attacking Valleys Rugby? It's getting boring now just like yourself

I am not even saying this is definitely going to happen but the way things are going it wouldn't suprise me that's all I am saying

So on what basis would you say that the WRU will NEVER shut down the Dragons then boring boy?

Are you capable of posts without personal attacks? I'd love to reply, but don't want to bore you.

wayne wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

wayne wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Didn't Cardiff Blues get a rake of money off BT for the naming rights to the stadium? That possibly has more to do with these signings than anything else..... Maybe.

(Waits for ACTUAL Welsh person to give permission to think this)

I really wish you lot would do some research before you post such crap, at the time of the Stadium deal, the shirt sponsorship deals were also done by the Regions and all the money was to be shared equally

You have lost me. What bearing do shirt sponsorship deals have on a naming rights deal? Did the Blues throw in the cash from their naming along with them?

Educate me o great one so that I may learn at your knee.

Otherwise I will be doomed to "not have a clue" for the rest of my days

Read post above pupil

No Worries Master.
My original post was a question rather than a statement. (I even put in a ? at the end) Us Irish obviously have a vested interest in the Welsh situation as it affects our "domestic" league. Probably why a lot of us are on here asking questions.

It is nice to get an actual answer rather than be told that we don't have a clue and should take a course in being Welsh or p1ss off and not comment at all.

Perhaps what we forget sometimes is that while it affects our league, it affects your whole rugby setup and you are bound to be a bit grumpy at the lack of progress without us rubbing your noses in it.

For that I apologise, to you, and even to his chunkness.  

Risca Rev wrote:Are you capable of posts without personal attacks?

Your the one who can't respond to a post of mine without making derogative about Valleys people or the rugby played there

Risca Rev wrote:I'd love to reply, but don't want to bore you

I'll take that as you being unable to give a reason then...

Jen no apologies needed, you're right I'm grumpy in anticipation of what is going to happen to my team this year Os, the primary reason of which is the WRU, if they had paid us the going rate for our players when on TW duty, we wouldn't be in the position we are now in. If they hadn't interfered in the Adam Jones saga he would still be with us, even though his stock is on the wane, and you are quite right we don't like our noses being rubbed in it, especially myself who had an Irish grandfather

It was a fair comparison though. If you wish to keep calling Dragons, Newport then I'll persist knocking the daft Valleys Rugby idea. I'd imagine they wouldn't allow us to sign Brok Harris if we were being wound up any time soon. I'd also imagine Ystrad Mynach wouldn't have happened if we were all making our merry way to Cardiff.

Seeing as our academy is doing pretty well in churning out potential, the WRU would be stupid risking diluting the talent by merging a region.