South Africa v Wales - 2nd Test, Nelspruit

First topic message reminder :

South Africa:
15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 JP Pietersen, 12 Jan Serfontein, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Fourie du Preez, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Victor Matfield (c), 4 Flip van der Merwe ,3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.

Replacements:
16 Schalk Brits, 17 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Lodewyk de Jager, 20 Schalk Burger, 21 Ruan Pienaar, 22 Wynand Olivier,
23 Lwazi Mvovo.


Wales:
15 Liam Williams, 14 Alex Cuthbert, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Jamie Roberts, 11 George North, 10 Dan Biggar, 9 Mike Phillips
8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Josh Turnbull, 6 Dan Lydiate, 5 Alun-Wyn Jones (c), 4 Luke Charteris, 3 Samson Lee, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Gethin Jenkins

Replacements:
16 Matthew Rees, 17 Paul James, 18 Aaron Jarvis, 19 Jake Ball, 20 Dan Baker, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 James Hook, 23 Matthew Morgan


Date: Saturday, June 21
Venue: Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
Kick-off: 15.00 (13.00 GMT)
Referee: Steve Walsh (Australia)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Francesco Pastrana (Argentina)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Taylorman wrote:Well done, and take the positives from that into next year.

Next year is only 10 weeks away.

I do agree this was a fantastic match.  I feel bad for the lad with that last tackle.  Having watched that play a few times now, I am not convinced a score was ineviatble if not for the illegal hit, so I am not sure the Penalty Try was the correct call.  A yellow, though, for sure.  But clearly, a close run thing no matter how many times I look at it.  

However, if Williams made the proper tackle attempt and the try was scored, then the conmversion to win the match would have been from out wide, not in front of the sticks.  No guarantee there.

Doctor,

Steve Walsh, to his credit, took AWJ aside and said I need to explain careful what the rules state.
If an illegal tackle is made then the referee has to consider what would have occurred if the player was not there - or words to that effect.
In the light of that he is saying if Williams was not there a try would have been scored - that is correct

geoff999rugby wrote:Doctor,

Steve Walsh, to his credit, took AWJ aside and said I need to explain careful what the rules state.
If an illegal tackle is made then the referee has to consider what would have occurred if the player was not there - or words to that effect.
In the light of that he is saying if Williams was not there a try would have been scored - that is correct

OK, thanks. Clearly, then, the try would have been scored.
I had thought the interpretation is what may have happened if the illegal play did not occur.

Honestly don't know the rule but that is what Steve Walsh said

IRB 2013 Law Book on-line, page 58 wrote:Penalty Try. If a player would probably have scored a
try but for foul play by an opponent, a penalty try is
awarded between the goal posts.

Granted, I didn't look too hard (it's early here and I need coffee), but this is what i found.  I wonder if there is something else in the sanctions section?

'Probably' is a massive word in sport. It's a brave man who decides he knows what would 'probably' have happened as we all know only too well in any discussion about any incident here. One guy says that would probably have happened, another guy says not in a million years was it ever likely to happen. 'Probably' is a very subjective concept.

Got to agree, I'm surprised at that wording. Some refs could start dishing them out like confetti!

In the first half yesterday of the England all blacks game, I'd say the all blacks were probably going to score every time they had the ball!

milkyboy wrote:Got to agree, I'm surprised at that wording. Some refs could start dishing them out like confetti!

In the first half yesterday of the England all blacks game, I'd say the all blacks were probably going to score every time they had the ball!

And do the attributes of the player in question have to be taken into account?
 
If you'd given Graham Morrison, Scotland's slowest 'crash ball' centre ever, the ball on the half way line and a 30 metre head start, he'd still be caught by the opposing prop before scoring. I am willing to believe this is a lower than usual standard for an international player...

SecretFly wrote:'Probably' is a massive word in sport.  It's a brave man who decides he knows what would 'probably' have happened as we all know only too well in any discussion about any incident here.  One guy says that would probably have happened, another guy says not in a million years was it ever likely to happen.  'Probably' is a very subjective concept.

Agree, though not sure how else to put it.

Definitely a PT. And you have to take into account the fact that it was dangerous play and cheating (and brainless). However I wonder if there's justification in awarding a PT at the point it was most likely to have been scored. It was the 'between the posts' that made the difference, as a kick at goal from the corner would have been very difficult.

George Carlin wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Got to agree, I'm surprised at that wording. Some refs could start dishing them out like confetti!

In the first half yesterday of the England all blacks game, I'd say the all blacks were probably going to score every time they had the ball!

And do the attributes of the player in question have to be taken into account?
 
If you'd given Graham Morrison, Scotland's slowest 'crash ball' centre ever, the ball on the half way line and a 30 metre head start, he'd still be caught by the opposing prop before scoring. I am willing to believe this is a lower than usual standard for an international player...

Indeed George, there are English backlines from the past whose chances of scoring when unchallenged... and already over the try line... were no stronger than 'possibly'.

His momentum alone took him to the line, even with the hit from Williams he hit the line, so there is no doubt the try would have been scored.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Definitely a PT. And you have to take into account the fact that it was dangerous play and cheating (and brainless). However I wonder if there's justification in awarding a PT at the point it was most likely to have been scored. It was the 'between the posts' that made the difference, as a kick at goal from the corner would have been very difficult.

I think the point is that it's meant to penalise and be a deterrent factor. If you know you are giving a certain 7, then in theory you should think twice. Otherwise you might think, I'll take him out, if the ref doesn't spot it great, if he does, I'm no worse off anyway.

The counter to that I guess is the use of a yellow card.

Biltong wrote:His momentum alone took him to the line, even with the hit from Williams he hit the line, so there is no doubt the try would have been scored.

I don't think you can say "no doubt".

A properly executed tackle may not have stopped him reaching the line, but could have been in touch also/first.

There is doubt

I think a properly executed tackle would very probably have stopped the try, but I think he's referring to Williams being taken out if the equation, in which case to me, its close to a certainty.

milkyboy wrote:I think a properly executed tackle would very probably have stopped the try, but I think he's referring to Williams being taken out if the equation, in which case to me, its close to a certainty.

Fair enough

From a welsh fans perspective, Steve Walsh did a great job in the way he approaches the last penalty try
I felt he manged the game well, there were wrong calls but that's was for both times but what ref doesn't.
In all fairness to him he took his time to explaining to Alyn Wyn because he new what it meant and he had no choice but to.
If anybody wants to blame anyone it's Liam Williams. I have always stuck up for him but he should not be in that team until he cools down. Needs to grow up as there was no need for that offence and he could have easily used his arms. I don't care if he is apologetic, neither the team or fans deserved that in the end.
I do feel we are cursed against the big three, first with a 17 point lead in the first 20 and 13 in the last we always find a way to slip up.
I just feel sorry for players like Gethin Jenkins, Toby Falateu, Alyn Wyn and Cuthbert (who i happily admit i was wrong about, outclassed North on the day) who worked there arsses off

Having just watched the replay of the last try, Williams actually dislodges the ball with his other arm, if he had just wrapped his right and made a legit tackle that wouldn't have been a try, what a silly boy.

RDSguru wrote:

Biltong wrote:His momentum alone took him to the line, even with the hit from Williams he hit the line, so there is no doubt the try would have been scored.

I don't think you can say "no doubt".

A properly executed tackle may not have stopped him reaching the line, but could have been in touch also/first.

There is doubt

The way Walsh worded it was that the infringing player must be taken out of the equation as if he wasn't there.

So ignore Williams and look at where Hendricks was when he was hit by Williams, less than a yard from the line, by the time the hit was over Hendricks hit the corner post, hence there is no doubt his momentum would have taken him over even if he didn't take another step.

Biltong wrote:

RDSguru wrote:

Biltong wrote:His momentum alone took him to the line, even with the hit from Williams he hit the line, so there is no doubt the try would have been scored.

I don't think you can say "no doubt".

A properly executed tackle may not have stopped him reaching the line, but could have been in touch also/first.

There is doubt

The way Walsh worded it was that the infringing player must be taken out of the equation as if he wasn't there.

So ignore Williams and look at where Hendricks was when he was hit by Williams, less than a yard from the line, by the time the hit was over Hendricks hit the corner post, hence there is no doubt his momentum would have taken him over even if he didn't take another step.

I misread/misunderstood "even with the hit from Williams he hit the line"

Still think "No Doubt" is strong, Highly Likely though. We'll never know

Anyway, Walsh only had to go with probably, so it was the right call.

Not a big fan of Williams from a discipline point of view but it was North at fault for the pen try, out of position and feeble tackle for the second week. Halfpenny would have legally stopped that try but would be knocked out again.

Totally agree with you Alun, North should have made a far better effort than he did and even if he taken him out illegally as did Williams then it would of been a penalty kick at worst.

See below one of the greatest tackles ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXY6Wfk0Vyg

Similar to Liam Williams tackle yesterday?

On another topic anyone have a link to the Samson Lee citing incident?

Jhamer25 wrote:From a welsh fans perspective, Steve Walsh did a great job in the way he approaches the last penalty try
I felt he manged the game well, there were wrong calls but that's was for both times but what ref doesn't.
In all fairness to him he took his time to explaining to Alyn Wyn because he new what it meant and he had no choice but to.
If anybody wants to blame anyone it's Liam Williams. I have always stuck up for him but he should not be in that team until he cools down. Needs to grow up as there was no need for that offence and he could have easily used his arms. I don't care if he is apologetic, neither the team or fans deserved that in the end.
I do feel we are cursed against the big three, first with a 17 point lead in the first 20 and 13 in the last we always find a way to slip up.
I just feel sorry for players like Gethin Jenkins, Toby Falateu, Alyn Wyn and Cuthbert (who i happily admit i was wrong about, outclassed North on the day) who worked there arsses off

JH,

I did say all week I was surprised how many people were willing to drop Cuthbert but North was getting off scot free, for me Alexs' work rate is far superior than Norths most games and Norths defence has been at fault (crucially) again this week.

On the flip side I myself have called for James to start over Jenkins for sometime now but Jenkins had his best game for along time yesterday as did Roberts and Phillips who again I called for to be dropped.

Seagultaf wrote:See below one of the greatest tackles ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXY6Wfk0Vyg

Similar to Liam Williams tackle yesterday?

On another topic anyone have a link to the Samson Lee citing incident?

Seagul,

You beat me to it, heard it on news earlier but said very little as to what happened.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:From a welsh fans perspective, Steve Walsh did a great job in the way he approaches the last penalty try
I felt he manged the game well, there were wrong calls but that's was for both times but what ref doesn't.
In all fairness to him he took his time to explaining to Alyn Wyn because he new what it meant and he had no choice but to.
If anybody wants to blame anyone it's Liam Williams. I have always stuck up for him but he should not be in that team until he cools down. Needs to grow up as there was no need for that offence and he could have easily used his arms. I don't care if he is apologetic, neither the team or fans deserved that in the end.
I do feel we are cursed against the big three, first with a 17 point lead in the first 20 and 13 in the last we always find a way to slip up.
I just feel sorry for players like Gethin Jenkins, Toby Falateu, Alyn Wyn and Cuthbert (who i happily admit i was wrong about, outclassed North on the day) who worked there arsses off

JH,

I did say all week I was surprised how many people were willing to drop Cuthbert but North was getting off scot free, for me Alexs' work rate is far superior than Norths most games and Norths defence has been at fault (crucially) again this week.

On the flip side I myself have called for James to start over Jenkins for sometime now but Jenkins had his best game for along time yesterday as did Roberts and Phillips who again I called for to be dropped.

Yeah North was anonymous for this test, I think he made one good carry. Whats going on with his defence these days? I swear he wasn't always this terrible.

IronMike wrote:I know how this sounds in the wake of the match, but to be honest even when we were 13 points up with 10 minutes to go I had this feeling we would still lose the match, thats what supporting Wales has been like for the past decade it just happens so many times at the death.

2 things need to be sorted out - discipline and closing out matches.

On a side note, does anyone else feel the maul is being refereed harshly to the defending teams? It looks as though the attacking team can commit offences but any defending team infringements are pinged immediately. When was the last time you saw an attacking maul get penalised?

me too, wrestled with it but turned it off with 3 minutes to go, have been through too many of these moments which indicate a fundamental 6 inches problem upstairs (rugby talks about 3" but Wales need to look deeper than that) As a fan i felt bad switching off but i hoped that if i wasn't watching we would do what we did to France in 08 and show the resolve, in my heart i knew we wouldn't.

George Carlin wrote:Very little to add to this other than to say that I was heartbroken for Wales - they deserved better.

Does raise the question of the mahoosive divergence in the intensity levels at which this Welsh side seems to play matches. Why is that? My friends from Ponty told me last night that they key thing is that this Welsh side have this fifth gear available to them if they really have to use it. That's true, but you can lose games in the time it takes to get focused.

Inexplicable but it suggests laziness and when you find out they had 1…ONE….UNO….EIN training session for Test 1 is it any wonder.

So many times i have heard that Wales lack intensity in the first game of a series. it's BS. We used to have a problem even playing when the whistle blew, would ship 2 scores in 20 minutes and play catch up which almost became a learned behavior….we HAD to play catch up because it suited hi tempo offload rugby which we favored.

Every single offing game in red should be played that way. Yes I am proud of their performance but i am disgusted at the lack of cohones….the poor leadership, the platitudes from management.

And there is never any real change, feet far to far under the table in management and though i think the dismissal of Adam Jones fires a warning shot across various bows, at this level in that shirt it should not be needed. Where's the pride?

Congrats to South Africa for showing great steel and grit to come from behind twice to win that.

Steve Walsh had a very good game I felt, although he does love the sound of his own voice!

For me this proves that technically & physically we have the ability to compete with the top sides, I felt the mentality in terms of aggression and control of the contact area for 70 minutes was superb (we dropped off in the last ten but was what due to fitness? Or mentally "going into our shells" trying to protect the lead). Our kicking game was excellent for large parts with players competing and winning balls in the air and our scrum was very very good and at last Gatland has seen sense with Samson Lee! However was also impressed with Aron Jarvis, although Guthro Steenkamp got the better of Aron later on....

For me this game proved more than any other the only difference is the top two inches and belief at 70 minutes we should be continuing to go for tries rather than trying to run the clock down and defend as it is very difficult to do against the top sides..

South Africa was very fortunate to win the match, and I don't mean because of decisions, they left it very late to make a charge, maybe they did believe they could catch Wales, but they almost took too long to make the play.

Morne Steyn is going to be the death of me with hus casual sauntering when he recieves the ball, I hope to hell Meyer is going to realise nit what Morne can do, but what he cannot do.

Wales have to work hard on their line out and defending driving mauls to win these games...

The team showed great heart to turn around their performances from donated team to dominant team...

I can't help feeling that even if Liam Williams had made a legitimate try saving tackle, Wales would have found another way to lose that match.
I guess the game immediately restores the reputation of Gatland. The lack of aimless kicking certainly made the game a much better spectacle and if he has actually learned something, it is not to gift possession to skilful counter attacking fullbacks. There was even one instance where Biggar kicked well and a brilliant chase by Cuthbert led to Willie le Roux knocking on. Cuthbert was immense. Why didn't we give him the ball in the second half? The period of play before Biggar's drop goal attempts was awful, why not throw the ball to Roberts and Foxy who were more likely to gain ground than keeping it so narrow.
Mike Phillips had his best game for Wales for a long time, but I'm not sure this is a good thing in the long term as I believe Gareth Davies is, or certainly will be, a better player. This will hold up his development. On the plus side, Gethin is still a world class LH, Samson Lee at 21 is a formidable TH. AWJ, have we ever had a better lock forward?
Gutted Wales didn't win (My husband is South African) I'm sick of Wales being a plucky loser.

Hurt a bit too much to make a comment yesterday and the head hurts a bit today after the beers trying to forget...

However, first and most importantly well done Boks, it was great to see you NEVER gave up, and although I can't help thinking we threw that away in the end, you have to be applauded for a fantastic come back.

As for Liam's tackle... No doubt illegal and no arguments in the decision made by Walsh. I said that's a penalty try before Walsh asked the TMO for the replay.

I agree with comments that North should have made a tackle earlier, and also that there was no reason for Liam to go in like that as a legal tackle would have probably saved the try anyhow.

Seagultaf wrote:See below one of the greatest tackles ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXY6Wfk0Vyg

Similar to Liam Williams tackle yesterday?

On another topic anyone have a link to the Samson Lee citing incident?

I like the clip here Seagultaf, I've said for ages Liam Williams reminds me of JPR, but JPR's brilliant try saving tackle was in the 70s and there's no place for the shoulder tackle/barge in today's games. Whoever showed Liam to do this in the first place should be ashamed.

I think this may be Liam's last game in a Welsh jersey. I've been a fan of his up to now, saying he's young and needs to mature, but yesterday was the final straw for me. He cost us a game, and I hope the boys (team) have let him know it. Hope Warren has made him sit between Alun Wynn and Matthew Rees all the way home. Sure they can remind him of his actions.


Just to recap... Well done Boks and well done Wales for stepping up a gear and giving us a terrific test match.

[quote="No9"]Hurt a bit too much to make a comment yesterday and the head hurts a bit today after the beers trying to forget...

However, first and most importantly well done Boks, it was great to see you NEVER gave up, and although I can't help thinking we threw that away in the end, you have to be applauded for a fantastic come back.

As for Liam's tackle... No doubt illegal and no arguments in the decision made by Walsh. I said that's a penalty try before Walsh asked the TMO for the replay.

I agree with comments that North should have made a tackle earlier, and also that there was no reason for Liam to go in like that as a legal tackle would have probably saved the try anyhow.

Seagultaf wrote:See below one of the greatest tackles ever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXY6Wfk0Vyg

Similar to Liam Williams tackle yesterday?

On another topic anyone have a link to the Samson Lee citing incident?

I like the clip here Seagultaf, I've said for ages Liam Williams reminds me of JPR, but JPR's brilliant try saving tackle was in the 70s and there's no place for the shoulder tackle/barge in today's games. Whoever showed Liam to do this in the first place should be ashamed.

I think this may be Liam's last game in a Welsh jersey. I've been a fan of his up to now, saying he's young and needs to mature, but yesterday was the final straw for me. He cost us a game

No he didn't, North did with his half hearted attempt at a tackle, if he had put half the effort in Williams did then he would have stopped Hendricks short and even if it had been illegal the worst outcome would have been a penalty.

I hope its not his last game in a Welsh shirt though it should be Norths until he gets his defence sorted, if this was Cuthbert who had missed that tackle then he would have been slated to hell but North seems untouchable at the moment and god knows why.

Sorry Bedford your wrong...

First, North should not have been picked. He was not fit for the first test and I don't think he was fully fit yesterday. I have already said I agree North's tackle was weak but you cannot blame him for Liam's rush of blood to the head. It was Liam's illegal tackle, which he knew what he was doing that cost us the game, as it was that tackle that was penalised, not North's missed tackle. Maybe we would have still lost the game if Liam has tackled legally, but by not legally tackling in that scenario you are gifting 7 points.

As I have said before. Been a fan of Liam and see a lot of JPR in him. I have defended his mistakes in the past, but he should have learned by now and yesterday's infringement was inexcusable.

He needs to be dropped. You never no it may be what he needs to become a better player in the long term.

Whether he should or shouldn't of picked is irrelevant, a International (some would say world class) winger should have been able to make that tackle, if he then Williams wouldn't have had to do what he done.

Not saying he may not need to be dropped but it won't or shouldn't be his last game in a Welsh shirt and I also think North needs to be dropped again for his own good in long term.

Every rugby player makes mistakes... better now then in the rugby world cup. Its his breakthrough season, the kid will make mistakes.

It was foolish as I think he would have got him out had he wrapped him up, but never play for Wales again... come on, if that was the case you wouldn't have any players left.

Cuthbert would have been out years ago... Phillips, wouldn't have even got passed his first training session.

North should have taken his man, was a little beat for speed but still and Williams should have tackled him properly.

Yet somehow I was never worried the boks wouldn't win. You just knew they would come back.

Liam Williams is relatively new to top grade rugby so he will be still learning the game. He appears to have missed out at age grade for Wales so his development has been under the radar.

The Scarlets to their credit recognised his talent playing for Swansea Village side Waunarlwdd. Hopefully he will recover and be a better player for this experience.

I agree with the comments on North, he looked a shaddow of himself in both tests, whether this was down to his recent injury, the exertion of two cup finals or his illness, I dont know? It only goes to highlight the lack of cover in this position.

I think the make up of the backs on the bench was wrong, why have Hook and Morgan on there I would have had one of them and then maybe J Williams.

We do need to develop or at least look at the other options to North and Cuthbert as a matter or urgency now.

We have Li Williams and Halfpenny who can both play at XV or wing but after that there cupboard is just very in-experienced youngsters who have little or no experience at the top level - player like J Williams, Robinson, Walker, Prydie, Dirksen (if they choose to go that route).

All are quite exciting young prospects but they are just that, prospects.

milkyboy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Got to agree, I'm surprised at that wording. Some refs could start dishing them out like confetti!

In the first half yesterday of the England all blacks game, I'd say the all blacks were probably going to score every time they had the ball!

And do the attributes of the player in question have to be taken into account?
 
If you'd given Graham Morrison, Scotland's slowest 'crash ball' centre ever, the ball on the half way line and a 30 metre head start, he'd still be caught by the opposing prop before scoring. I am willing to believe this is a lower than usual standard for an international player...

Indeed George, there are English backlines from the past whose chances of scoring when unchallenged... and already over the try line... were no stronger than 'possibly'.

Not a fan of English rugby are you?

I suppose we could draw parallels of your appraisal of the English back line of old's ability to score with that of the entire Welsh team from the early 80's until - oh, quite recently actually, which included a 96 to 13 thrashing by the Boks in 1998. Only 15 tries scored against Wales that day. no 'possibly' about that one...

Jimpy wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Got to agree, I'm surprised at that wording. Some refs could start dishing them out like confetti!

In the first half yesterday of the England all blacks game, I'd say the all blacks were probably going to score every time they had the ball!

And do the attributes of the player in question have to be taken into account?
 
If you'd given Graham Morrison, Scotland's slowest 'crash ball' centre ever, the ball on the half way line and a 30 metre head start, he'd still be caught by the opposing prop before scoring. I am willing to believe this is a lower than usual standard for an international player...

Indeed George, there are English backlines from the past whose chances of scoring when unchallenged... and already over the try line... were no stronger than 'possibly'.

Not a fan of English rugby are you?

I suppose we could draw parallels of your appraisal of the English back line of old's ability to score with that of the entire Welsh team from the early 80's until - oh, quite recently actually, which included a 96 to 13 thrashing by the Boks in 1998. Only 15 tries scored against Wales that day. no 'possibly' about that one...

What a load of $%^&

Another boring, predictable shot at Wales by Jimpy.

Jimpy wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Got to agree, I'm surprised at that wording. Some refs could start dishing them out like confetti!

In the first half yesterday of the England all blacks game, I'd say the all blacks were probably going to score every time they had the ball!

And do the attributes of the player in question have to be taken into account?
 
If you'd given Graham Morrison, Scotland's slowest 'crash ball' centre ever, the ball on the half way line and a 30 metre head start, he'd still be caught by the opposing prop before scoring. I am willing to believe this is a lower than usual standard for an international player...

Indeed George, there are English backlines from the past whose chances of scoring when unchallenged... and already over the try line... were no stronger than 'possibly'.

Not a fan of English rugby are you?

I suppose we could draw parallels of your appraisal of the English back line of old's ability to score with that of the entire Welsh team from the early 80's until - oh, quite recently actually, which included a 96 to 13 thrashing by the Boks in 1998. Only 15 tries scored against Wales that day. no 'possibly' about that one...

Given he's English he's earned the right to have a pop at the appalling back lines we've had in recent years? I know I've done it.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think the make up of the backs on the bench was wrong, why have Hook and Morgan on there I would have had one of them and then maybe J Williams.

We do need to develop or at least look at the other options to North and Cuthbert as a matter or urgency now.

We have Li Williams and Halfpenny who can both play at XV or wing but after that there cupboard is just very in-experienced youngsters who have little or no experience at the top level - player like J Williams, Robinson, Walker, Prydie, Dirksen (if they choose to go that route).

All are quite exciting young prospects but they are just that, prospects.

I would love to see Morgan on the wing. He would be a risk defensively but given any room that boy could be another Shane

For most of the game we proved we can play rugby unlike last week and players who myself and a few others called for to be dropped had big games.

So jumping ahead a bit do we now still stick with these guys in the AIs or does he really try and develop options and experiment in certain areas.

Scratch wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think the make up of the backs on the bench was wrong, why have Hook and Morgan on there I would have had one of them and then maybe J Williams.

We do need to develop or at least look at the other options to North and Cuthbert as a matter or urgency now.

We have Li Williams and Halfpenny who can both play at XV or wing but after that there cupboard is just very in-experienced youngsters who have little or no experience at the top level - player like J Williams, Robinson, Walker, Prydie, Dirksen (if they choose to go that route).

All are quite exciting young prospects but they are just that, prospects.

I would love to see Morgan on the wing. He would be a risk defensively but given any room that boy could be another Shane

for just a second i thought i was on an England thread and that you were attempting to pre-empt Lancaster's next brainfart for putting one of Englands biggest ball carriers in a position where they never get the ball. My bad. Apols, but had to share as it did make me laugh.

Did George North actualy (start) on saturday? or was he on the bench, for most of the game?

bedfordwelsh wrote:For most of the game we proved we can play rugby unlike last week and players who myself and a few others called for to be dropped had big games.

So jumping ahead a bit do we now still stick with these guys in the AIs or does he really try and develop options and experiment in certain areas.

pick who is on form

There is more to it than 'form'

And form doesn't fluctuate game to game in the way Alex Cuthbert's did in T2 v T1

Guys like him, Gethin, Roberts and Philipps had immense games after the shocker they had the week before. That suggests more mental attitude and coaching issues to me.

Edwrads admitted that the tests side had one training session prior to T1. That is just unacceptable.

He also admitted that Wales are slow starters and would improve by T2 which they evidently did.

Now, if the management know we are slow starters and only get us training once well what do they expect. It's almost unthinkable that a team who freezes in tests should be only training once for a massive game like that.

Now, when Wales are together for long periods they invariably improve performance game on game but so do other sides - except apparently england in NZ - so knowing that they start
slowly they should be using hi intensity full contact training to get them up to speed. Do they avoid this to avoid injuries, or because they are all so long in the tooth in the squad and familiar that they think they know it all.

I think it is a bit of both and clearly the training they did for T2 proves that they need to change their attitude off the pitch as much as on it.

north should not have been picked. he was ill from a viral infection and was not fit. Morgan on the wing.? why not create a new shane.

No9 wrote:Sorry Bedford your wrong...

First, North should not have been picked. He was not fit for the first test and I don't think he was fully fit yesterday. I have already said I agree North's tackle was weak but you cannot blame him for Liam's rush of blood to the head. It was Liam's illegal tackle, which he knew what he was doing that cost us the game, as it was that tackle that was penalised, not North's missed tackle. Maybe we would have still lost the game if Liam has tackled legally, but by not legally tackling in that scenario you are gifting 7 points.

As I have said before. Been a fan of Liam and see a lot of JPR in him. I have  defended his mistakes in the past, but he should have learned by now and yesterday's infringement was inexcusable.

He needs to be dropped. You never no it may be what he needs to become a better player in the long term.

This is amazing

Yet again Wales attempt to hang one player for one incident for losing the game.

Charteris getting sin binned didn't cost Wales the win, Dan Biggar getting sin binned and giving away a penalty try didn't cost Wales the win? You guys were 17-0 up and silly decisions gave away 15 points to let SA back in the game.

Liam Williams was defending the FB channel i.e. under the post, when the breakdown was lost, even then there was five to six Welsh players up against 4 maybe five SA offensive players including Turnbull, Faletaua, Phillips, Davies and North....... Yet Williams has to run the entire line in a vain attempt to cover tackle an already diving Hendricks.

Yes it was an illegal tackle, poorly judged and whilst he initially made the correct movement he followed through with his trailing arm, then elbow, he had a split second decision to attempt to stop a diving player from one metre.

Yet it was Williams fault Wales lost the match