South Africa v Wales - 2nd Test, Nelspruit

First topic message reminder :

South Africa:
15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 JP Pietersen, 12 Jan Serfontein, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Fourie du Preez, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Victor Matfield (c), 4 Flip van der Merwe ,3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.

Replacements:
16 Schalk Brits, 17 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Lodewyk de Jager, 20 Schalk Burger, 21 Ruan Pienaar, 22 Wynand Olivier,
23 Lwazi Mvovo.


Wales:
15 Liam Williams, 14 Alex Cuthbert, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Jamie Roberts, 11 George North, 10 Dan Biggar, 9 Mike Phillips
8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Josh Turnbull, 6 Dan Lydiate, 5 Alun-Wyn Jones (c), 4 Luke Charteris, 3 Samson Lee, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Gethin Jenkins

Replacements:
16 Matthew Rees, 17 Paul James, 18 Aaron Jarvis, 19 Jake Ball, 20 Dan Baker, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 James Hook, 23 Matthew Morgan


Date: Saturday, June 21
Venue: Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
Kick-off: 15.00 (13.00 GMT)
Referee: Steve Walsh (Australia)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Francesco Pastrana (Argentina)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

flyhalffactory wrote:

No9 wrote:Sorry Bedford your wrong...

First, North should not have been picked. He was not fit for the first test and I don't think he was fully fit yesterday. I have already said I agree North's tackle was weak but you cannot blame him for Liam's rush of blood to the head. It was Liam's illegal tackle, which he knew what he was doing that cost us the game, as it was that tackle that was penalised, not North's missed tackle. Maybe we would have still lost the game if Liam has tackled legally, but by not legally tackling in that scenario you are gifting 7 points.

As I have said before. Been a fan of Liam and see a lot of JPR in him. I have  defended his mistakes in the past, but he should have learned by now and yesterday's infringement was inexcusable.

He needs to be dropped. You never no it may be what he needs to become a better player in the long term.

This is amazing

Yet again Wales attempt to hang one player for one incident for losing the game.

Charteris getting sin binned didn't cost Wales the win, Dan Biggar getting sin binned and giving away a penalty try didn't cost Wales the win? You guys were 17-0 up and silly decisions gave away 15 points to let SA back in the game.

Liam Williams was defending the FB channel i.e. under the post, when the breakdown was lost, even then there was five to six Welsh players up against 4 maybe five SA offensive players including Turnbull, Faletaua, Phillips, Davies and North....... Yet Williams has to run the entire line in a vain attempt to cover tackle an already diving  Hendricks.

Yes it was an illegal tackle, poorly judged and whilst he initially made the correct movement he followed through with his trailing arm, then elbow, he had a split second decision to attempt to stop a diving player from one metre.

Yet it was Williams fault Wales lost the match

It's true, if we were Scottish we could blame all 15.

"It's true, if we were Scottish we could blame all 15"


That reply probably sums up it up from you

Some valid points been made and you reply with something that is nothing to do with the topic thread, doesn't make any sense and...... well is pretty typical

(I wouldn't go down the Scotland v SH teams results over the last decade compared to Wales by the way), best to keep it on topic to save face

flyhalffactory wrote:

No9 wrote:Sorry Bedford your wrong...

First, North should not have been picked. He was not fit for the first test and I don't think he was fully fit yesterday. I have already said I agree North's tackle was weak but you cannot blame him for Liam's rush of blood to the head. It was Liam's illegal tackle, which he knew what he was doing that cost us the game, as it was that tackle that was penalised, not North's missed tackle. Maybe we would have still lost the game if Liam has tackled legally, but by not legally tackling in that scenario you are gifting 7 points.

As I have said before. Been a fan of Liam and see a lot of JPR in him. I have  defended his mistakes in the past, but he should have learned by now and yesterday's infringement was inexcusable.

He needs to be dropped. You never no it may be what he needs to become a better player in the long term.

This is amazing

Yet again Wales attempt to hang one player for one incident for losing the game.

Charteris getting sin binned didn't cost Wales the win, Dan Biggar getting sin binned and giving away a penalty try didn't cost Wales the win? You guys were 17-0 up and silly decisions gave away 15 points to let SA back in the game.

Liam Williams was defending the FB channel i.e. under the post, when the breakdown was lost, even then there was five to six Welsh players up against 4 maybe five SA offensive players including Turnbull, Faletaua, Phillips, Davies and North....... Yet Williams has to run the entire line in a vain attempt to cover tackle an already diving  Hendricks.

Yes it was an illegal tackle, poorly judged and whilst he initially made the correct movement he followed through with his trailing arm, then elbow, he had a split second decision to attempt to stop a diving player from one metre.

Yet it was Williams fault Wales lost the match

agree.
Its the same as when fans blame refs. A player makes a poor play and a ref maks a bad decision...blame the ref. North was every bit as guilty as Williams for the try. He missed his man, fell off him when he should have done better than that. Had he done his job as an experienced international wing, the try wouldnt have been scored. Whether he should have played is completely irrelevant. He did play, and when you play you take on the responsibility of performing, and he failed.

Williams tackle was also poor, but at least he stopped the try in one respect.

Legal tackle- failed. Illegal tackle- failed. Same outcome. If anything North and his experience should shoulder the blame more. Certainly hope hes acknowledged that, rather than let a young newer player cop it all.

flyhalffactory wrote:"It's true, if we were Scottish we could blame all 15"


That reply probably sums up it up from you

Some valid points been made and you reply with something that is nothing to do with the topic thread, doesn't make any sense and...... well is pretty typical

(I wouldn't go down the Scotland v SH teams results over the last decade compared to Wales by the way), best to keep it on topic to save face

Makes perfect sense…..if you are a Scots fan you can blame the entire team for being poor and losing games, and the pitch. 14 years of failure in the NH is not the fault of one player.

You think you are the only one who can critique another nation's side? You claim that it was not Williams fault. It patently was, he committed an illegal tackle and in doing so conceded a penalty try and hence a certain 7 points, instead of attempting to tackle the man legally whereupon he may have succeeded and saved the day or failed and forced a touchline conversion.  

Hope that sums it up for you. 

Except yours isn't a critique, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt to get under someone's skin by being deliberately disrespectful about their own team.

No Liam Williams shouldn't shoulder the entirety of the blame. Responsibility lies at the door of the team as a whole for getting into a magnificent position twice in the game (as if once wasn't enough) and letting it get snatched away both times. Nothing new has come from this tour: only the old knowledge that Wales can compete with any side at their best but STILL can't handle the pressure when success is within their grasp.

Oh, and they STILL need to learn how to counter-maul. I know the Boks are one of the best at it but that's no excuse for the atrocious resistance we put up against the catch and drive. Every time they opt to take a close lineout I silently curse for knowing exactly what's coming.

Knowsit17 wrote:Except yours isn't a critique, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt to get under someone's skin by being deliberately disrespectful about their own team.

No Liam Williams shouldn't shoulder the entirety of the blame. Responsibility lies at the door of the team as a whole for getting into a magnificent position twice in the game (as if once wasn't enough) and letting it get snatched away both times. Nothing new has come from this tour: only the old knowledge that Wales can compete with any side at their best but STILL can't handle the pressure when success is within their grasp.

Oh, and they STILL need to learn how to counter-maul. I know the Boks are one of the best at it but that's no excuse for the atrocious resistance we put up against the catch and drive. Every time they opt to take a close lineout I silently curse for knowing exactly what's coming.

\

Er, yes it is. I accurately state that Scotland are poor because of the performance of their entire side while Wales have only 1 man to blame on this occasion. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but its a fact. And its no more 'disrespectful' than suggesting Wales were at fault as a team for his illegal, match winning tackle.

Scratch wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Except yours isn't a critique, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt to get under someone's skin by being deliberately disrespectful about their own team.

No Liam Williams shouldn't shoulder the entirety of the blame. Responsibility lies at the door of the team as a whole for getting into a magnificent position twice in the game (as if once wasn't enough) and letting it get snatched away both times. Nothing new has come from this tour: only the old knowledge that Wales can compete with any side at their best but STILL can't handle the pressure when success is within their grasp.

Oh, and they STILL need to learn how to counter-maul. I know the Boks are one of the best at it but that's no excuse for the atrocious resistance we put up against the catch and drive. Every time they opt to take a close lineout I silently curse for knowing exactly what's coming.

\

Er, yes it is. I accurately state that Scotland are poor because of the performance of their entire side while Wales have only 1 man to blame on this occasion. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but its a fact. And its no more 'disrespectful' than suggesting Wales were at fault as a team for his illegal, match winning tackle.

Look at the stats of Wales v SH sides and then compare it to Scotland v SH (take it over the last decade if you want), then come back to me about accuracy. Or if you want compare the last three games as we are both on tour, or if you want compare Wales v Sa and Scotland v SA..... or Australia, or Argentina.....

Confirms your comments beggar belief
Wales didn't lose the match because of one man and one incident for gods sake. Charteris got sent off when he knew he didn't have to go for the ball, Biggar gave away a penalty try and was sent off for 10 mins. The last try situation should never have seen Liam Williams been put in that situation of attempting to stop an already diving for the line man from one metre, there was at least 5-6 players who should have stopped that passage of play.

Its amazing but I have yet seen any analysis of why you let a 15-0 advantage slip and no blame against the players in that period of time...... funny that. But as usual the entire view of the match is based on a split second decision in the last two mins and crucifying a player who generally had an excellent game up to then.

I cannae recall when Scotland posters have crucified a single player for one loss or on the flip side "bulled up" a single player for a win.

By the way I though Wales produced a storming performance and pretty much matched a fired up SA team throughout the 80 mins as a squad. Very unlucky to lose.

To end its not disrespectful its about cheery picking the data (you could call it "truth")

Knowsit17 wrote:Except yours isn't a critique, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt to get under someone's skin by being deliberately disrespectful about their own team.

No Liam Williams shouldn't shoulder the entirety of the blame. Responsibility lies at the door of the team as a whole for getting into a magnificent position twice in the game (as if once wasn't enough) and letting it get snatched away both times. Nothing new has come from this tour: only the old knowledge that Wales can compete with any side at their best but STILL can't handle the pressure when success is within their grasp.

Oh, and they STILL need to learn how to counter-maul. I know the Boks are one of the best at it but that's no excuse for the atrocious resistance we put up against the catch and drive. Every time they opt to take a close lineout I silently curse for knowing exactly what's coming.

Where in my post have I been disrespect to a team....

I think Wales had a wonderful match, manned up in every dept, and were extremely unlucky to lose that match, which in my opinion they deserved to win.

One thing I will say
As much as Phillips, Biggar, Turnbull and Faletau had good games they should have been replaced with fresh legs at least on the 65 minute. You saw what Davies did the week before and in my opinion SA were blowing a lot in the last quarter. Gatland again was too scared to make the change and Davies, Morgan fresh legged could have possibly torn the tiring SA back line apart

By the way I though Wales produced a storming performance and pretty much matched a fired up SA team throughout the 80 mins as a squad. Very unlucky to lose.

Agree that South Africa are very fortunate to pull the win off, but "a fired up SA side"?

We were pathetic, unforced errors galore, missed tackles, Morne Steyn had a gap in front of him a few times and couldn't exploit one of them, we were poor at the breakdown and in general that was our third poorest performance (behind Argentina in Mendoza 2013 and Scotland in Nelspruit 2013) since January last year.

Oh dear vhf, one minute we have a wonderful match next minute you don't get why we let a 15- 0 deficit slip, all over the place aren't you.

And i suppose if you must grasp Scotland's huge, mammoth gargantuan, success v SH sides as an indicator of just how much better they are than Wlaes I can only retort with 2010 6 Nations Wales v Scotland…now i cannas recall a better example wee laddie, that's how to lose a game…cheerio!

Biltong wrote:

By the way I though Wales produced a storming performance and pretty much matched a fired up SA team throughout the 80 mins as a squad. Very unlucky to lose.

Agree that South Africa are very fortunate to pull the win off, but "a fired up SA side"?

We were pathetic, unforced errors galore, missed tackles, Morne Steyn had a gap in front of him a few times and couldn't exploit one of them, we were poor at the breakdown and in general that was our third poorest performance (behind Argentina in Mendoza 2013 and Scotland in Nelspruit 2013) since January last year.

Nothing more vomit inducing than a humble and contrite loser, being a graceless loser suited you much better.

Scratch wrote:

Biltong wrote:

By the way I though Wales produced a storming performance and pretty much matched a fired up SA team throughout the 80 mins as a squad. Very unlucky to lose.

Agree that South Africa are very fortunate to pull the win off, but "a fired up SA side"?

We were pathetic, unforced errors galore, missed tackles, Morne Steyn had a gap in front of him a few times and couldn't exploit one of them, we were poor at the breakdown and in general that was our third poorest performance (behind Argentina in Mendoza 2013 and Scotland in Nelspruit 2013) since January last year.

Nothing more vomit inducing than a humble and contrite loser, being a graceless loser suited you much better.

You're a sad little man.

Biltong wrote:

Scratch wrote:

Biltong wrote:

By the way I though Wales produced a storming performance and pretty much matched a fired up SA team throughout the 80 mins as a squad. Very unlucky to lose.

Agree that South Africa are very fortunate to pull the win off, but "a fired up SA side"?

We were pathetic, unforced errors galore, missed tackles, Morne Steyn had a gap in front of him a few times and couldn't exploit one of them, we were poor at the breakdown and in general that was our third poorest performance (behind Argentina in Mendoza 2013 and Scotland in Nelspruit 2013) since January last year.

Nothing more vomit inducing than a humble and contrite loser, being a graceless loser suited you much better.

You're a sad little man.

And yet again you seem to be a poor loser Biltong. Ho hum, rules don't apply to you about personal remarks i see

SA weren't really up for this match... they underestimated Wales becausee of the canter at which they beat Wales in the first test. They certainly weren't fired up ... sure at the end because hey they came back from 17 points down in first half and similiar in the second... who wouldn't be.

If this was say a KO match in the RWC Wales wouldn't have a prayer with this side and missing a bunch of their key players. You would have seen a completely different performance from the boks. Only with a full strength side would Wales have a chance.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Except yours isn't a critique, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt to get under someone's skin by being deliberately disrespectful about their own team.

No Liam Williams shouldn't shoulder the entirety of the blame. Responsibility lies at the door of the team as a whole for getting into a magnificent position twice in the game (as if once wasn't enough) and letting it get snatched away both times. Nothing new has come from this tour: only the old knowledge that Wales can compete with any side at their best but STILL can't handle the pressure when success is within their grasp.

Oh, and they STILL need to learn how to counter-maul. I know the Boks are one of the best at it but that's no excuse for the atrocious resistance we put up against the catch and drive. Every time they opt to take a close lineout I silently curse for knowing exactly what's coming.

Where in my post have I been disrespect to a team....

I think Wales had a wonderful match, manned up in every dept, and were extremely unlucky to lose that match, which in my opinion they deserved to win.

One thing I will say
As much as Phillips, Biggar, Turnbull and Faletau had good games they should have been replaced with fresh legs at least on the 65 minute. You saw what Davies did the week before and in my opinion SA were blowing a lot in the last quarter. Gatland again was too scared to make the change and Davies, Morgan fresh legged could have possibly torn the tiring SA back line apart

I agree with this. I didn't think Phillips should have been selected, but he had a huge first hour for Wales, and reacted well to Gatland's backing, despite the barrage of mostly justified criticism of his previous performances before the game. But his impact in the last 20 had dropped, understandably so, and I also felt that Wales could have used some fresh legs to keep the pace of the game up. When Wales were direct and playing at pace in the first half, South Africa struggled and lost their defensive shape, allowing Wales to make significant ground in attack. I think Davies could have made a difference in the last 20.

The game was really lost in the second quarter though, with that 14 point swing when Wales went down to 13 men. I really hope Scotland learn a lesson from that. If you're on a warning and the Boks are on course to score, don't give away a silly penalty like Charteris did (I thought Biggar was slightly unlucky) - a yellow card lasts 10 minutes and SH teams invariably punish you. I think had Wales conceded 7 points but no yellow cards, they would ultimately have prevailed.

Phillips suits South Africa and probably England to a tee. Any other nation he's a bit of a liability. He loves physical confrontation  and reasonably slow sides... but the rest exploit him. He goes on tour to SA and plays ok but that doesn't help Wales when they face AUS or IRE etc as he cements his place due to big performances in tours such as these.

flyhalffactory wrote:

No9 wrote:Sorry Bedford your wrong...

First, North should not have been picked. He was not fit for the first test and I don't think he was fully fit yesterday. I have already said I agree North's tackle was weak but you cannot blame him for Liam's rush of blood to the head. It was Liam's illegal tackle, which he knew what he was doing that cost us the game, as it was that tackle that was penalised, not North's missed tackle. Maybe we would have still lost the game if Liam has tackled legally, but by not legally tackling in that scenario you are gifting 7 points.

As I have said before. Been a fan of Liam and see a lot of JPR in him. I have  defended his mistakes in the past, but he should have learned by now and yesterday's infringement was inexcusable.

He needs to be dropped. You never no it may be what he needs to become a better player in the long term.

This is amazing

Yet again Wales attempt to hang one player for one incident for losing the game.

Charteris getting sin binned didn't cost Wales the win, Dan Biggar getting sin binned and giving away a penalty try didn't cost Wales the win? You guys were 17-0 up and silly decisions gave away 15 points to let SA back in the game.

Liam Williams was defending the FB channel i.e. under the post, when the breakdown was lost, even then there was five to six Welsh players up against 4 maybe five SA offensive players including Turnbull, Faletaua, Phillips, Davies and North....... Yet Williams has to run the entire line in a vain attempt to cover tackle an already diving  Hendricks.

Yes it was an illegal tackle, poorly judged and whilst he initially made the correct movement he followed through with his trailing arm, then elbow, he had a split second decision to attempt to stop a diving player from one metre.

Yet it was Williams fault Wales lost the match

  

I'm getting fed up of this... So here, I will try and put my point over once again...

I blame Liam for giving away a PENALTY TRY, not a try. If he didnt have a rush of blood to the head and try a tackle straight out of JPR's book of the 70s, he would not have GIVEN AWAY 7 points. Yes, the try may have still been scored and yes it may have been converted, and yes the winger may have by some miracle got around under the posts before grounding (no chance there, but put in to make a point). And if any of those had happened then we would have still lost and I would not have "blamed" anyone. But he didnt. He decided it would best to charge in with the shoulder. That was bad, illegal and plain stupid.

He has done this SO MANY times before and I have defended him as I have seen so much promise in him. But I dont buy he is "young and inexperienced" anymore. He has more than 60 Scarlet caps and 14 international, which means he is used to top flight rugby now and should now be made to "pay" for these indiscretions, if not he will never change.

Was the North to blame. YES for the missed tackle. But you cannot blame Liam's shoulder charge on North's missed tackle. What are you trying to say "sir he made me do it...". One (or multiple errors) does not excuse a deliberate foul action. An action, that could have resulted in serious injury to another player. I do not and will not buy the fact that Liam's actions are vindicated by North's error.

Should North have been playing.. I've said elsewhere, I dont think he should. He was still clearly ill last week, and I dont think he was 100% over his bug this week.

Did other's cost us the game ie. Charterist and Biggar's yellows... Well they contributed, but that's part of the game. An illegal shoulder barge isnt and hasnt been since the 70s.

In the 70s I applauded JPRs shoulder charge whilst wearing flared jeans. I'm glad to say that now I'm in my 50s, the rules have changed and I've binned the flares.

I'm not going to comment on this any further, as some of you are adamant that Liam did nothing wrong. In my opinion, it was that action that cost us the game, and cheap illegal tackles like that play no part in the modern game. So until Liam learns to contain his temper I feel he has no place in the Welsh squad. My opinion and I wont be swayed, in the same way others here wont...

Had my say...   

Liam Williams has seemingly earnt a reputation for being 'brave' but there's a difference between being brave and being stupid. Liam Williams was stupid in what he did, no need to charge in like he did and there was plent opportunity to use the arms but he didn't.

That being said, Wales were stupid to get 2 yellow cards at the same time and allow SA a chance to get back in to the game.

It was always said that NZ were the bottlers of International Rugby but it's starting to be Wales' game these days.

It was quite an odd tackle really, in that he did use his left arm but somehow also managed to use his right shoulder. At full speed I thought it was a great tackle, but when slowed down it was clear he led with his shoulder. I'm still not convinced it was a penalty try (a penalty and a yellow card perhaps), but you can see that both ways.

In any event, it's the easy analysis to blame one player for a defeat. Scotland fans in the past have similarly looked for a scapegoat - usually Dan Parks - but in truth there were several equally significant individual errors. Luke Charteris' yellow card was just as stupid - an utterly blatant piece of foul play right in front of the ref. The momentum of the first half shifted at that point.

Really hard defeat for Wales. I thought the team performance was generally excellent, particularly the first 20 minutes. Few sides in the world can live with Wales playing that quick, powerful and direct rugby. Shame George North was under the weather, because a fully fit North would have thrived in that first half. Alex Cuthbert was immense. I remember when I first saw him play, and I thought he wouldn't amount to much. He looked gangly and short of co-ordination. How wrong was I!?

gcBlues wrote:Liam Williams has seemingly earnt a reputation for being 'brave' but there's a difference between being brave and being stupid. Liam Williams was stupid in what he did, no need to charge in like he did and there was plent opportunity to use the arms but he didn't.

I think he'd earnt a reputation for being stupid before this too. He's been drawn into unnecessary handbags on the pitch, he's given out unnecessary cheap shots- he doesn't seem like a bad sort off the pitch, just prone to being hotheaded on it, but definitely not the brightest bulb. He'd want to be careful because he's very close to getting a reputation as a dirty player. This is a good opportunity for him to embark on some personal growth as a player because these moments of crisis are great moments to reflect and start change.

Understand Williams was foolhardy to put a challenge like that in and I haven't ploughed through all 7 pages but surely a fair portion of the blame lies by the feet of Charteris, Biggar and AW Jones also?

flyhalffactory wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Except yours isn't a critique, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt to get under someone's skin by being deliberately disrespectful about their own team.

No Liam Williams shouldn't shoulder the entirety of the blame. Responsibility lies at the door of the team as a whole for getting into a magnificent position twice in the game (as if once wasn't enough) and letting it get snatched away both times. Nothing new has come from this tour: only the old knowledge that Wales can compete with any side at their best but STILL can't handle the pressure when success is within their grasp.

Oh, and they STILL need to learn how to counter-maul. I know the Boks are one of the best at it but that's no excuse for the atrocious resistance we put up against the catch and drive. Every time they opt to take a close lineout I silently curse for knowing exactly what's coming.

Where in my post have I been disrespect to a team....

I think Wales had a wonderful match, manned up in every dept, and were extremely unlucky to lose that match, which in my opinion they deserved to win.

One thing I will say
As much as Phillips, Biggar, Turnbull and Faletau had good games they should have been replaced with fresh legs at least on the 65 minute. You saw what Davies did the week before and in my opinion SA were blowing a lot in the last quarter. Gatland again was too scared to make the change and Davies, Morgan fresh legged could have possibly torn the tiring SA back line apart

It wasn't directed at you Fly, I had been addressing Scratch on the 'disrespectful' part of the comment.

when the AI games start i just hope Wales continue with this intensity . i really didnt think Wales had it in them and for the first twenty minutes neither did south Africa

Notch wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Liam Williams has seemingly earnt a reputation for being 'brave' but there's a difference between being brave and being stupid. Liam Williams was stupid in what he did, no need to charge in like he did and there was plent opportunity to use the arms but he didn't.

I think he'd earnt a reputation for being stupid before this too. He's been drawn into unnecessary handbags on the pitch, he's given out unnecessary cheap shots- he doesn't seem like a bad sort off the pitch, just prone to being hotheaded on it, but definitely not the brightest bulb. He'd want to be careful because he's very close to getting a reputation as a dirty player. This is a good opportunity for him to embark on some personal growth as a player because these moments of crisis are great moments to reflect and start change.

It's my 606V2 report card!!!! What? No gold star/hand shandy?

Notch wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Liam Williams has seemingly earnt a reputation for being 'brave' but there's a difference between being brave and being stupid. Liam Williams was stupid in what he did, no need to charge in like he did and there was plent opportunity to use the arms but he didn't.

I think he'd earnt a reputation for being stupid before this too. He's been drawn into unnecessary handbags on the pitch, he's given out unnecessary cheap shots- he doesn't seem like a bad sort off the pitch, just prone to being hotheaded on it, but definitely not the brightest bulb. He'd want to be careful because he's very close to getting a reputation as a dirty player. This is a good opportunity for him to embark on some personal growth as a player because these moments of crisis are great moments to reflect and start change.

Danny Grewcock was an angel off the field. Loads of charity work, etc. He was a massive dirty   on the pitch.

Scratch wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Except yours isn't a critique, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt to get under someone's skin by being deliberately disrespectful about their own team.

No Liam Williams shouldn't shoulder the entirety of the blame. Responsibility lies at the door of the team as a whole for getting into a magnificent position twice in the game (as if once wasn't enough) and letting it get snatched away both times. Nothing new has come from this tour: only the old knowledge that Wales can compete with any side at their best but STILL can't handle the pressure when success is within their grasp.

Oh, and they STILL need to learn how to counter-maul. I know the Boks are one of the best at it but that's no excuse for the atrocious resistance we put up against the catch and drive. Every time they opt to take a close lineout I silently curse for knowing exactly what's coming.

\

Er, yes it is. I accurately state that Scotland are poor because of the performance of their entire side while Wales have only 1 man to blame on this occasion. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but its a fact. And its no more 'disrespectful' than suggesting Wales were at fault as a team for his illegal, match winning tackle.

As stated, Wales do not have one man to blame. Liam Williams wasn't guilty of spurning the initial 17 point advantage in the first half, the forwards were for having absolutely no answer to SA's drives from the lineout. Williams wasn't even guilty alone for the occurrence of the 2nd penalty try as North missed a tackle somebody of his quality ought to be nailing, leaving Williams having to make a last gasp desperate tackle on the line. The responsibility of the loss as a whole lies with the collective rather than Williams for his individual role in it

We kept them at bay for most of the game but all it took was a couple of intervals where multiple facets of the team response were insufficient, including but not exclusively Williams' tackle execution.

I agree but what has annoyed is the way no-one has blamed North

bedfordwelsh wrote:I agree but what has annoyed is the way no-one has blamed North

Hard to blame a guy so young, so talented but who is obviously not fit! He did next to nothing all day.

That may well be the case but he should still be able to tackle.

bedfordwelsh wrote:That may well be the case but he should still be able to tackle.

In the 80th minute, when not fit, and not being involved with the game. The difference is north made the decision to make a legal tackle but just didn't have the energy to make it, whereas Williams got there but decided to make an illegal tackle.

I like Williams, and his mindset of 'none shall pass' is correct in my view, but I can understand why welsh fans would feel angry with him, it was a decision.

My opinion is, he had the right mindset going in, took the risk, and it backfired, a young guy who is inexperienced at this level who will learn. Priest land made exactly the same decision earlier on, took the yellow and penalty try, which in reality is probably worse game wise, but it didn't hold the emotional stress of a last. Minute play, also halfpenny is always perfect, Williams has to be compared.

Knowsit17 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Except yours isn't a critique, it's the usual thinly veiled attempt to get under someone's skin by being deliberately disrespectful about their own team.

No Liam Williams shouldn't shoulder the entirety of the blame. Responsibility lies at the door of the team as a whole for getting into a magnificent position twice in the game (as if once wasn't enough) and letting it get snatched away both times. Nothing new has come from this tour: only the old knowledge that Wales can compete with any side at their best but STILL can't handle the pressure when success is within their grasp.

Oh, and they STILL need to learn how to counter-maul. I know the Boks are one of the best at it but that's no excuse for the atrocious resistance we put up against the catch and drive. Every time they opt to take a close lineout I silently curse for knowing exactly what's coming.

Where in my post have I been disrespect to a team....

I think Wales had a wonderful match, manned up in every dept, and were extremely unlucky to lose that match, which in my opinion they deserved to win.

One thing I will say
As much as Phillips, Biggar, Turnbull and Faletau had good games they should have been replaced with fresh legs at least on the 65 minute. You saw what Davies did the week before and in my opinion SA were blowing a lot in the last quarter. Gatland again was too scared to make the change and Davies, Morgan fresh legged could have possibly torn the tiring SA back line apart

It wasn't directed at you Fly, I had been addressing Scratch on the 'disrespectful' part of the comment.

Cheers Knowsit old pal (apologies for that I was rather tired at the time and misread it   )

Again I thought Wales showed a lot character and especially Spikey Phillips who was pretty damn awesome for 60 mins of the game.

Interesting to read Ken Owens take on the match and the late penalty try
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27959296

Ken Owens wrote:"We can't grumble with that," said 27-year-old Owens.

"We've got to take it on the chin that we didn't snuff out the move."

And this from Gatland
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27959336

Warren Gatland wrote:Gatland said he had no problem with Walsh's decision to award the late penalty try - South Africa's second of the game.

"We've made an error defensively, which is disappointing," Gatland added.

"Hendricks has got outside George [North] and unfortunately Liam's come in and led with his shoulder.

"I don't have an issue with the decision."

Warren Gatland wrote:"We were playing really well at 17-0 up and we've gone from a good position [and] quadrupled our errors," Gatland said.

"We've gone from a penalty to another penalty to a yellow card to another yellow card and again at this level, with top-quality referees, you don't get away with that.

"Those are big moments in the game where you're under a bit of control and we said to our players it's about game management."

Both seem to suggest that like most of us (except for that Scratch person   ) Wales had a collective good game, and some moments which cost them the match

Liam Williams instinctively tried to prevent a try and make a tackle but messed it up in split second execution to the teams cost. If he had wrapped him into touch or dislodged the ball he wouldve been a match winning hero.

Its what makes rugby such a dramatic sport.

Well played Willie le Roux - what a game changer for SA who would've lost without him. All their attacks and scores seem to revolve around his line breaks or passes.( apart from rolling mauls, the boks other way to score. bit tedious but legal )

Great to see some change to a more dynamic style of play for Wales.

I was disappointed they didn't think through working a better angle for biggars drop goal attempt - they shouldve worked it left to give him a better angle on his right foot and then set up players to block the charge down and pass the ball to him when he is READY !!!!

How do you legally stop a rolling maul? Its one area where we have continually struggled and again teams will look at that as a weapon against us.

bedfordwelsh wrote:How do you legally stop a rolling maul?  Its one area where we have continually struggled and again teams will look at that as a weapon against us.

Put more defenders in. Teams don't do it because it leaves them exposed out wide. You also need your defenders to quickly get up and rejoin when they splinter off. Easter was talking about driving it to either side to split it and then get someone up the middle. But the easiest way is to sack it before it becomes a maul.

The only way you legally stop a maul is to go low, hit tem as soon as the catcher comes to ground, have enough numbers there to ensure they can't gain momentum, push them back so they collapse, and ensure two pillars on each side of the maul to prevent them from rolling left or right.

Otherwise, sack it immediately.

The only way to stop a maul legally is to stop it illegally and hope the ref is forgiving

Samson Lee's been banned for 5 weeks then. Still don't get the fact bans for clubs can apply to national teams and vice versa.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Samson Lee's been banned for 5 weeks then. Still don't get the fact bans for clubs can apply to national teams and vice versa.

Why shouldn't they? It's the same sport, the same players, the same actions that require bans. You might as well break down International bans and say that bans received in the 6N should only apply in that competition, or WC bans should only apply to WC. The offence applies to the individual player, not his team or teams.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Samson Lee's been banned for 5 weeks then. Still don't get the fact bans for clubs can apply to national teams and vice versa.

Has anyone seen the incident?

In light of the latest Saurez incident pity football don't have the same rules with regards bans.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Samson Lee's been banned for 5 weeks then. Still don't get the fact bans for clubs can apply to national teams and vice versa.

Why shouldn't they?  It's the same sport, the same players, the same actions that require bans.  You might as well break down International bans and say that bans received in the 6N should only apply in that competition, or WC bans should only apply to WC.  The offence applies to the individual player, not his team or teams.

Prefer the football version where if you're in a domestic competition you get a domestic ban, European etc. A offence committed in the Welsh shirt will now cost his club albeit in friendlies. Doesn't seem right to me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Samson Lee's been banned for 5 weeks then. Still don't get the fact bans for clubs can apply to national teams and vice versa.

Why shouldn't they?  It's the same sport, the same players, the same actions that require bans.  You might as well break down International bans and say that bans received in the 6N should only apply in that competition, or WC bans should only apply to WC.  The offence applies to the individual player, not his team or teams.

Prefer the football version where if you're in a domestic competition you get a domestic ban, European etc. A offence committed in the Welsh shirt will now cost his club albeit in friendlies. Doesn't seem right to me.

The bans are meant to erradicate the behavior that leads to bans. That's in theory what bans are for - as examples to others about the consequences.
Therefore, I'd assume having two irrate bosses (not only one boss) mad at you and being in a position to blame you for your actions is more a detterent to future bannable behavior than just having a player return to his club and them patting him on the back and saying "Don't worry about it - it doesn't bother us, we're not going to judge you on it. Your slate is clean here"

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Samson Lee's been banned for 5 weeks then. Still don't get the fact bans for clubs can apply to national teams and vice versa.

Why shouldn't they?  It's the same sport, the same players, the same actions that require bans.  You might as well break down International bans and say that bans received in the 6N should only apply in that competition, or WC bans should only apply to WC.  The offence applies to the individual player, not his team or teams.

Prefer the football version where if you're in a domestic competition you get a domestic ban, European etc. A offence committed in the Welsh shirt will now cost his club albeit in friendlies. Doesn't seem right to me.

The bans are meant to erradicate the behavior that leads to bans.  That's in theory what bans are for - as examples to others about the consequences.  
Therefore, I'd assume having two irrate bosses (not only one boss) mad at you and being in a position to blame you for your actions is more a detterent to future bannable behavior than just having a player return to his club and them patting him on the back and saying "Don't worry about it - it doesn't bother us, we're not going to judge you on it.  Your slate is clean here"

Does it work like that? Will Gatland be bothered that Lee will miss a few friendlies or would he have been more concerned about him being missing for the AIs? Mallinder may well have been quite please Hartley got himself a rest over the summer rather than miss the Premiership. I get what you're saying about aiming it at players rather than teams but I just don't agree.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Samson Lee's been banned for 5 weeks then. Still don't get the fact bans for clubs can apply to national teams and vice versa.

Has anyone seen the incident?

In light of the latest Saurez incident pity football don't have the same rules with regards bans.

Really? The BBC is reporting that Suraz could receive an X number of match bans - that would apply across all competitions wouldn't it? And so has the potential to affect the start of his league season.

It woudn't normally, can't think of an instance it ever has. FIFA may try to throw the book at him seeing as it's the 3rd time he's done it but can't see how they could apply it to his club games.

I'm a bit late to any debate here, but I was too down at the weekend to post much. Now I have my sunny disposition back! Here's my take:
Congrats to SA. Mark of a very good team to not play well and to come back strongly. Took chances very well and didn't panic at the end. Though not sure against NZ or an improving Australia Steyn will be good enough.

Pleased to see Wales come out strongly but bewildered by how up and down these players can be. Strong performances from Cuthbert, Roberts, Lee, AWJ and Philips had his best game for a while.

Wales clearly lack the mental edge to win tight games against the best teams. We don't make smart decisions and we stop playing smart rugby. If you can't win a line out in the opposing 22 with minutes to go all the pressure goes in the wrong direction. The pathetic last few minutes of "keep ball" rugby with forwards taking the ball standing still and getting thumped backwards was painful to watch. Contrast that to SA's playing for the final score!

We lost because SA are a better team at winning and because Wales made too many mistakes at critical moments - unfortunately there is no evidence that we are learning from similar past mistakes. We seem to lack leadership on the pitch when it matters most.

The penalty try was the right decision. Williams makes too many of these types of decisions and he may well find that it derails his career if he can't control himself. He's an "OK" player but imo not good enough for selectors to overlook his temperament.

Very fair assessment offload, I have been harping on the inabilities of Steyn for years now, it seems Meyer isn't listening.

Biltong wrote:Very fair assessment offload, I have been harping on the inabilities of Steyn for years now, it seems Meyer isn't listening.

I think you're being a bit harsh of Steyn Biltong. Under the current setup his job is not to be the playmaker , he's the tactical player. With Du Preez and Le Roux the playmakers .His kicking out of hand and for posts has always been superb and he puts the Boks in the right position to win games. I think he's just playing to the gameplan just like Serfontein who's clearly been instructred to bash it forward and get over the advantage line to then allow Le Roux and co to come in on second phase with quick ball. Besides Morne Steyn has always been a typical Bulls flyhalf ,dependable and does all that is expected of him ,especially for the Boks

Bullsbok, do yourself a favour and go watch (it happened about 4 or 5 times) when Steyn got the ball and decided to keep it.

Firstly there were two opportunities where e had ball in hand, noticed te defence drifted and decided to go for the gap, both times he was simply too slow, a few other times he had ball in hand, hesitated and then decided to go forward into the traffic, it didn't work, he could not hit a gap or break any tackles (I remember he pushed off Retallic last year in a test)

The fact is, MOrne Steyn does not punch the line even if he tries, to suggest that is not his job would be of even more concern to me because that suggests Meyer is aware of his inabilities and have told him to pass or kick.

If you have a flyhalf that should only pass or kick, then we are in a world of trouble because then he becomes utterly predictable.

Tactically his kicking is sound, his goal kicking is sound.

But we have not beaten the AB's or won a world cup with him since 2011. It is time to move on, and unless we want to stagnate we simply have to find a replacement.

I do realise with Lambie being injured and Goose always having niggles Meyer had little choice, but he should start in earnest to find someone else.

Any chance.............. any chance (didn't see the game so can't have an opinion of my own) that SA wanted to put themselves under more pressure in the second test to............. well, to prepare for tough times coming in the Championship?  Not disparaging Wales who certainly have the ammo to up their game and push their intensity levels onto the opposition (more especially when they feel 'nothing left to lose', mind you)
But the disparity in SA performances between first test and second test seems pointed.  And I only have the Ireland v Argentina tour to go on when I witnessed Irish players who had the tactical smarts to make those two tests easier seem to doggedly and continually do things that made those games much much 'harder'.  I sensed there was a purpose to it all in Schmidt's mind.  I was frustrated yes but I couldn't help thinking Schmidt was using the games to work on some distinct specifics.

Biltong wrote:Bullsbok, do yourself a favour and go watch (it happened about 4 or 5 times) when Steyn got the ball and decided to keep it.

Firstly there were two opportunities where e had ball in hand, noticed te defence drifted and decided to go for the gap, both times he was simply too slow, a few other times he had ball in hand, hesitated and then decided to go forward into the traffic, it didn't work, he could not hit a gap or break any tackles (I remember he pushed off Retallic last year in a test)

The fact is, MOrne Steyn does not punch the line even if he tries, to suggest that is not his job would be of even more concern to me because that suggests Meyer is aware of his inabilities and have told him to pass or kick.

If you have a flyhalf that should only pass or kick, then we are in a world of trouble because then he becomes utterly predictable.

Tactically his kicking is sound, his goal kicking is sound.

But we have not beaten the AB's or won a world cup with him since 2011. It is time to move on, and unless we want to stagnate we simply have to find a replacement.

I do realise with Lambie being injured and Goose always having niggles Meyer had little choice, but he should start in earnest to find someone else.

Yes he has his flaws but Morne Steyn has probably endeared himself to the Bok cause by simply being the most reliable and dependable Bok flyhalf on the country. I really dont blame Heyneke for playing him. And i'd go as far as to say Meyer is aware of his inabilities and works around them because he's the only flyhalf he cant count on to always be around when the rest are off being injured as per usual. In which case its just wise to build around your dependable option hence bringing back guys like Du Preez to do the attacking