Scotland Summer Tour, Game 4: South Africa v Scotland, 28 June

First topic message reminder :

South Africa v Scotland
28 June 2014, KO: 17:00 SAST (16:00 BST, 15:00 GMT)
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape
 
Live on Sky Sports 1
 
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)
Assessor: Donal Courtney (Ireland)
 
A. Previous tour game threads:

https://www.606v2.com/t54151-scotland-summer-tour-game-1-usa-v-scotland-7-june
https://www.606v2.com/t54218-scotland-summer-tour-game-2-canada-v-scotland-14-june
https://www.606v2.com/t54324-scotland-summer-tour-game-3-argentina-v-scotland-21-june
 
B. Teams:
 
I. South Africa

15 Willie le Roux - 14 caps, 30 Test points
14 Cornal Hendricks - 2 caps, 10 Test points
13 JP Pietersen - 53 caps, 80 Test points
12 Jan Serfontein - 11 caps, 5 Test points
11 Lwazi Mvovo - 8 caps, 5 Test points
10 Handré Pollard - uncapped
9 Fourie du Preez (vice-captain) - 69 caps, 75 Test points
 
8 Duane Vermeulen - 18 caps, 10 Test points
7 Schalk Burger - 70 caps, 65 Test points
6 Marcell Coetzee - 15 caps, 5 Test points
5 Victor Matfield (captain) - 112 caps, 35 Test points
4 Lood de Jager - 2 caps, 0 Test points
3 Jannie du Plessis - 53 caps, 5 Test points
2 Bismarck du Plessis (vice-captain) - 59 caps, 45 Test points
1 Coenie Oosthuizen - 16 caps, 10 Test points
 
16 Adriaan Strauss - 33 caps, 25 Test points
17 Trevor Nyakane - 3 caps, 5 Test points
18 Marcel van der Merwe - uncapped
19 Stephan Lewies - uncapped
20 Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje - uncapped
21 Francois Hougaard - 27 caps, 20 Test points
22 Marnitz Boshoff - uncapped
23 Zane Kirchner - 28 caps, 25 Test points
 
II. Scotland

15 Stuart Hogg
14 Sean Maitland
13 Nick De Luca
12 Peter Horne
11 Tommy Seymour
10 Duncan Weir
9 Henry Pyrgos

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 Geoff Cross
4 Tim Swinson
5 Grant Gilchrist
6 Robert Harley
7 Chris Fusaro
8 Adam Ashe

16 Kevin Bryce
17 Moray Low
18 Euan Murray
19 Jonny Gray
20 Tyrone Holmes
21 Grayson Hart
22 Dougie Fife
23 Peter Murchie
 
C. Numbers - head to head:
 
24 Played 24
19 Won 5
5 Lost 19
597 Points 264
 
D. Last Dozen Results
 
17 November 2013
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 28 to South Africa
 
15 June 2013
Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
30 – 17 to South Africa
 
17 November 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 21 to South Africa
 
20 November 2010
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
21 – 17 to Scotland
 
15 November 2008
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 14 to South Africa
 
25 August 2007
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
3 –27 to South Africa
 
17 June 2006
EPRU Stadium, Port Elizabeth
29 –15 to South Africa
 
10 June 2006
Kings Park Stadium, Durban
36 –16 to South Africa
 
27 November 2004
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 45 to South Africa
 
14 June 2003
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
28 –19 to South Africa
 
7 June 2003
Kings Park Stadium, Durban
29 –25 to South Africa
 
16 November 2002
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
21 –6 to Scotland

Poite getting involved, that's us screwed then!

Softest yellow card ever!

Both teams have been doing it all game - that was incredibly soft

Really unfair yellow....

What is it with SH officials. They only seem to penalise NH sides...

Seem to remember a soft yellow killing off last year's game in SA too!   

Bet Dougie fife is looking forward to playing in a Scotland game where they're not being torn to pieces!

Nice to see politicians all over the world are the same....

W.nk.rs ....

That's a dull yin - we had a good passage of play there

Boks too strong for Scotland, and there's no surprise there. But ref has only had one eye open during the game....

Implosion complete!!!

This could be 60

'it's a maul he doesn't have to roll'

Very inconsistent reffing

Well done Boks, tough game there Scotland...

Reckon Boks could be favourites for next years RWC. All Blacks may be world no 1, but they never perform in a WC, well not since the 1st in 87. They where lucky in 2011, as it wasn't their best performance.

However, the Boks seem to be strong and getting stronger. Looking good for this years Championship and building to 2015.

Just saw a saffer holding someone off the ball... no response??

The penalty count must be massive against us - has ruined any possession we've had

What was the final score and shouldi watch the 2nd half?

cakeordeath wrote:What was the final score and shouldi watch the 2nd half?

Don't bother.

50something-6

55-6, no.

I will delete it as soon as I get home

Some good debuts from SA there. Wales havnt done Scotland any favours thats for sure. SA now 16 from 18 wins and climbing...a fascinating Rugby Championship coming up, all 3 sides in good winning form.
Vern Cotter has a bit of work to do...

Comisserations to Scotland, was a tough match, but at times they showed good patience with ball in hand, managed to retain posession for extended periods, the Bok defence was tough to break down.

From a Bok perspective the youngsters did well, Pollard attacked the line nicely, Serfontein was a monster with ball in hand, Lood de Jager had a great game, and Willie looked dangerous when he got the ball.

Still need to work on our discipline, too many errors and penalties.

I thought Vermeulen had a great game as well.

Our props struggled.

I thought we had some strong individual performances - Harley (my Scotland motm), pyrgos and Seymour with the front row doing well at scrum time. Huge shift from Dickinson too. Weir was better than recent history and Horne was way out of his depth. A promising debut from Ashe too - he didn't look out of place.

As a team though we were annihilated at the contact area, gave away far too many penalties at key times and didn't even threaten their 22 never mind their try line.

So all in all we got what we expected from this game - heavy defeat but the guys showed a lot of character.

Dire result. Almost our worst ever.

We didn't look capable of scoring a try, t'was men against boys out there.

Horne and Weir simply aren't international class. Great club players but Horne missed 3 tackles and Weir 5!

Some may say a game too far but we barely beat the US, robbed Canada, robbed a young Argentina and got destroyed by South Africa. I'm not feeling too positive about getting out of our pool next year (excuse the post game pessimism).

Time to drown the sorrows.

I was very impressed with our defence.

Positives for Scotland, front row, Gilchrist, Harley. Negatives the other 10.

Hogg shouldn't play for Scotland again until he gets some discipline back. Weird and Horne are nowhere near international class. Fusaro is too small, and tough debut for Ashe.

madmaccas wrote:Dire result. Almost our worst ever.

We didn't look capable of scoring a try, t'was men against boys out there.

Horne and Weir simply aren't international class. Great club players but Horne missed 3 tackles and Weir 5!

Some may say a game too far but we barely beat the US, robbed Canada, robbed a young Argentina and got destroyed by South Africa. I'm not feeling too positive about getting out of our pool next year (excuse the post game pessimism).

Time to drown the sorrows.

I'm on Merlot if that helps.

Any team that makes Jan Serfontein look like the second coming has serious questions to answer defensively

We're just so terribly naive in our play, looked like 7s everytime we had possession. Thought we'd have played a smarter tactical kicking game with Prygos & Weir at half-back.

Ach well. We knew it would be a drubbing. Unlike other miserable performances there are some positives

Just watched the second half. Now I am just angry. Never a Frak yellow

Scotland was too dam tired to play this game today.

SA was far to powerful all over the place.

Some good players coming through for SA.

Really impressed with what Cotter had to say at the end. He still looked like an angry man

Look, we were searching down the side of the sofa for players in a match against the likes of Victor Matfield. Let's be fair, we were never going to win.

I think we need to understand that we just don't have the resources across the game to be able to compete with the top 3 nations.

If anything is to be learned from this, I think we need to consider whether we play our best XV against SA in the RWC. We won't win, so is it perhaps worth sacrificing the game?

At the end of the day though, it looks like SA, AUS and NZ are all shaping up very nicely for the Rugby Championship and RWC. It'll be great to see the likes of Folau (AU) & Le Roux really test the ABs and hopefully provide a cracking RWC.

One other positive. So our aim for the RWC I think is getting out of the group stages. (?). Well, we could put out a team/squad like this (if on form):

Grant (Reid), Ford (MacArthur), Murray (Welsh), J Gray (Gilchrist), R Gray (Swinson), Harley (Denton), Rennie (Barclay), Strauss (Beattie), Cusiter (Laidlaw), Russell (Jackson), Seymour (Visser), Scott (Fife), Dunbar (Bennett), Maitland (Evans), Hogg (Murchie)

If this was on form, yes we probably wouldn't beat the boks still, but I would hope it would get us out of the groups at least...

Men against boys (literally at times..)

Front row did well but i think Oosthuizen is way too big for a loosehead and could be the reason SA scrum malfunctioned... Still, i can't get over the fact that Dr Cross is leaving Edinburgh..

Swinson and Fusaro are too small at this level, Ashe on the other hand gave a good account of himself in what was a tough baptism of fire..
Harley and Gilchrist were their usual selves and can't really be blamed for their efforts..They deserve their rest..
Bryce showed up well from the bench and could be one for the future.

The least said about the backline the better. Horne was way out of his depth. De Luca maybe exceeded expectations but that's about it.

Nematode wrote:
If anything is to be learned from this, I think we need to consider whether we play our best XV against SA in the RWC. We won't win, so is it perhaps worth sacrificing the game?

Well it worked for Hadden in 07. Although it's a kick in the teeth for the paying public to throw a game like that.

We (Wales) have regularly played games outside the IRB window during the AIs but why was this game played who agreed to it?

It goes back to a few years ago when the fixtures were planned. The SRU decided we've not got the resources or competence for 3 test tours, but managed to ensure we got one off tests in the summer. Problem is the SH teams have test series in the summer with others, hence why we can't play on the 3 main Saturday's.

This is why we played Australia on a Tuesday a few years ago and SA outside the irb window

Post match interview - Cotter tries to put a positive spin on things, Gilchrist just looks absolutely puggled.



Big Vern will certainly have learnt what he's got himself into this tour!

 

can someone with a brain tell me why the plan was to take them on up the middle ?

the whole game ?

The truth is we came up with a formula to beat South Africa in 2010 when we played our best team and played to it's strengths and stifled theirs. I firmly believe that we have the starting XV to compete with every international XV with the possible exception of the All Blacks, unfortunately there was an SRU employee who decided to play a prank by calling up an SARU member to request a game outside the test window away from home. In truth if we can play our top team in Newcastle we'll run them close and we should defeat Samoa but if we have two or three missing we'll suffer, what we saw today was a rampant confident Bok side playing with a partisan crowd against a scratch Scotland side which was literally the only option available to Cotter given the circumstance. Only Hogg and Maitland were certain starters from that team and Maitland looks less comfortable with every international appearance (and I'm a big fan and have been even prior to knowing of his Scottish connections) and right now I'd choose both Seymour and Visser ahead of him.

Weir is a top lad with a great temperament and an eye for the big moments but as a rugby player is not in the same league as Finn Russell, Horne is not at Scott's level by any stretch of the imagination, in Scott we have the modern international centre with good hands, great power and a decent boot in Horne we have a solid club player. I think going into the world cup Taylor is the better back up option as in the competition you have to be solid defensively first and foremost. Bennett (forgive me FES) is the best player our nation's system has produced in years and why he is continuously not picked is a mystery the lines he runs and his sheer ability is alien to all other than perhaps Stuart Hogg. Ashe looked good and must surely be given a chance next year for Glasgow and could even run Wilson close, Fusaro was competitive yet I think if Barclay and Rennie are fit he is simply not good enough, although I don't think Rennie should make the World cup from the championship. Harley showed himself as a complete workhorse and in my opinion has overtaken Brown this summer, Strokosch is perhaps past his best. The Grays are, funnily enough, a perfect combination in the second row and we have plenty depth in the second row to cover that position having said that I think one of Gilchrist and Swinson should travel, they are similar workhorse forwards of average ability and no great physical prowess, that's not to say they're not good players just two of a kind.

I think if we can play a the team below we have a serious chance of qualification and to compete for the semis:

1.Grant
2.Ford
3. Welsh
4.Gray
5.Gray
6.Harley
7.Barclay
8.Beattie
9.Cusiter
10.Russell
11. Visser
12.Scott
13. Bennett
14. Maitland
15.Hogg

16.Reid
17. MacArthur
18.Murray
19. Gilchrist
20. Brown
21. Laidlaw
22. Dunbar
23. Seymour

What did I miss? Hey, we scored 6 points more against the Boks than we did last time.  

Numbers, as ever, you talk a great deal of sense.
Right up until...
2. Ford
Can't Throw-Won't Hook showed again yesterday that, as big as his heart undoubtedly is, his throwing is just too inconsistent.
I take it you've got Laidlaw providing 9/10 cover but for me he kicks too much for a 9and, conversely, just isn't a 10. Pyrgos had a very good game yesterday and if you want a playmaker to come on and change the game then Jackson is streets ahead of Laidlaw.
As for the wings I thought Tennessee Tam looked in his element yesterday, much more so then NoMaits .
Also, I think, going by this season, that come the RWC Bluto will be the number one choice at 8.
Finally, I'm going to be all Machiavellian; Jamesie Cotter has now looked at quite a few players and watched us get thrashed by one of our group opponents. He can now say to the numpties at HQ... well anything he wants. He can have a night of the long knives, he can bring in Bennet and Russell and any other kids he wants. He can get rid of any and everyone he doesn't fancy because who can gainsay him after yesterday?
It should make for interesting viewing.

The problem with hooker is who replaces Ford?

Those from the west were clamouring for MacArthur to get picked and when he has played the lineout has been just as bad as when Ford was throwing - showing it's not just the hooker's fault (something I'm yet to see many from the west acknowledge!   )

MacArthur also lost his place in the Glasgow team to hall, who is now long term injured. He's 27 now and I think it's fair to say he's not developing as we'd hoped.

Lawson had a very poor tour.

Bryce looked promising, but is incredibly raw.

Also dont think the 'can't hook' accusation is accurate any more - our scrum was dominant yesterday and strong against Argentina. Yes he struggled earlier in the season but appears to have got the hang of it.

So yes Ford has his faults, but who would do any better?

On yesterday's showing Dickinson could well have taken over Grant, better scrummager and arguably as good if not better in the loose.
With Welsh, Cross, Murray, Low and now Cusack qualifying for Scotland at Tighthead as well as Shields and Reid on the Loosehead side i can't remember Scotland being so healthy in the prop department.

RDW_Scotland wrote:The problem with hooker is who replaces Ford?

Those from the west were clamouring for MacArthur to get picked and when he has played the lineout has been just as bad as when Ford was throwing - showing it's not just the hooker's fault (something I'm yet to see many from the west acknowledge!   )

MacArthur also lost his place in the Glasgow team to hall, who is now long term injured. He's 27 now and I think it's fair to say he's not developing as we'd hoped.

Lawson had a very poor tour.

Bryce looked promising, but is incredibly raw.

Also dont think the 'can't hook' accusation is accurate any more - our scrum was dominant yesterday and strong against Argentina. Yes he struggled earlier in the season but appears to have got the hang of it.

So yes Ford has his faults, but who would do any better?

Not sure that his improvement isn't down to the re-appearance of blatant feeding into the scrums. It looks to me as if the referees have started to ignore this again in the interests of getting the game moving.

Good point

Yesterday's scoreline was very bad and we've scrapped by in the other matches to a large extent but the tour has been useful in so much as it will have clarified Cotter's thoughts about our available players, those to keep and those who aren't up to it.
Thin as our playing base is, and we shouldn't be hasty to discard players, but surely we don't want yesterday's centre combo playing for Scotland again. De Luca has had his chance and Horne just doesn't look good (or big) enough for International rugby I'm afraid.
It's a shame Heathcote didn't get a game on tour (he's maybe happy he didn't play yesterday) as Weir obviously isn't the answer at 10. Russell has gained the most from this tour.

MacKnocked-on wrote:Yesterday's scoreline was very bad and we've scrapped by in the other matches to a large extent but the tour has been useful in so much as it will have clarified Cotter's thoughts about our available players, those to keep and those who aren't up to it.
Thin as our playing base is, and we shouldn't be hasty to discard players, but surely we don't want yesterday's centre combo playing for Scotland again. De Luca has had his chance and Horne just doesn't look good (or big) enough for International rugby I'm afraid.
It's a shame Heathcote didn't get a game on tour (he's maybe happy he didn't play yesterday) as Weir obviously isn't the answer at 10. Russell has gained the most from this tour.

Yeah and even then Russell was very average and he was against relatively poor opposition.

You know you have a serious weakness when then best player for a position is always the one who is not playing.

Let's hope Heathcote gets a run of games and stakes his claim.

Seymour for me has made himself the number one wing in the squad. Maitland has played well for a long while, not that he has been bad but just not good.