Scotland Summer Tour, Game 4: South Africa v Scotland, 28 June

First topic message reminder :

South Africa v Scotland
28 June 2014, KO: 17:00 SAST (16:00 BST, 15:00 GMT)
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape
 
Live on Sky Sports 1
 
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)
Assessor: Donal Courtney (Ireland)
 
A. Previous tour game threads:

https://www.606v2.com/t54151-scotland-summer-tour-game-1-usa-v-scotland-7-june
https://www.606v2.com/t54218-scotland-summer-tour-game-2-canada-v-scotland-14-june
https://www.606v2.com/t54324-scotland-summer-tour-game-3-argentina-v-scotland-21-june
 
B. Teams:
 
I. South Africa

15 Willie le Roux - 14 caps, 30 Test points
14 Cornal Hendricks - 2 caps, 10 Test points
13 JP Pietersen - 53 caps, 80 Test points
12 Jan Serfontein - 11 caps, 5 Test points
11 Lwazi Mvovo - 8 caps, 5 Test points
10 Handré Pollard - uncapped
9 Fourie du Preez (vice-captain) - 69 caps, 75 Test points
 
8 Duane Vermeulen - 18 caps, 10 Test points
7 Schalk Burger - 70 caps, 65 Test points
6 Marcell Coetzee - 15 caps, 5 Test points
5 Victor Matfield (captain) - 112 caps, 35 Test points
4 Lood de Jager - 2 caps, 0 Test points
3 Jannie du Plessis - 53 caps, 5 Test points
2 Bismarck du Plessis (vice-captain) - 59 caps, 45 Test points
1 Coenie Oosthuizen - 16 caps, 10 Test points
 
16 Adriaan Strauss - 33 caps, 25 Test points
17 Trevor Nyakane - 3 caps, 5 Test points
18 Marcel van der Merwe - uncapped
19 Stephan Lewies - uncapped
20 Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje - uncapped
21 Francois Hougaard - 27 caps, 20 Test points
22 Marnitz Boshoff - uncapped
23 Zane Kirchner - 28 caps, 25 Test points
 
II. Scotland

15 Stuart Hogg
14 Sean Maitland
13 Nick De Luca
12 Peter Horne
11 Tommy Seymour
10 Duncan Weir
9 Henry Pyrgos

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 Geoff Cross
4 Tim Swinson
5 Grant Gilchrist
6 Robert Harley
7 Chris Fusaro
8 Adam Ashe

16 Kevin Bryce
17 Moray Low
18 Euan Murray
19 Jonny Gray
20 Tyrone Holmes
21 Grayson Hart
22 Dougie Fife
23 Peter Murchie
 
C. Numbers - head to head:
 
24 Played 24
19 Won 5
5 Lost 19
597 Points 264
 
D. Last Dozen Results
 
17 November 2013
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 28 to South Africa
 
15 June 2013
Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
30 – 17 to South Africa
 
17 November 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 21 to South Africa
 
20 November 2010
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
21 – 17 to Scotland
 
15 November 2008
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 14 to South Africa
 
25 August 2007
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
3 –27 to South Africa
 
17 June 2006
EPRU Stadium, Port Elizabeth
29 –15 to South Africa
 
10 June 2006
Kings Park Stadium, Durban
36 –16 to South Africa
 
27 November 2004
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 45 to South Africa
 
14 June 2003
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
28 –19 to South Africa
 
7 June 2003
Kings Park Stadium, Durban
29 –25 to South Africa
 
16 November 2002
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
21 –6 to Scotland

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TJ wrote:Captain for me should be Brown (6)

I'm not convinced Brown is the best option at 6 anymore. I think Strockosch and Harley played better.

I believe he will be back into top form and that as he is the outstanding candidate for Captain (again my opinion only) then that gives him a little extra edge. He has been played out of position and has had a long hard year mentally and physically. A lot depends on club form at the beginning of next season tho.

I'm one of his biggest fans. Always liked him as a player and a captain. I suppose I'm judging him as a 7 when he plays for Scotland.

Can't fathom why he keeps getting picked there.

George Carlin wrote:We need a little optimism here, I think.
 
Take a look at our team a decade ago and compare. This was the side that was spanked 13-35 by England in the 2004 Six Nations. We were wooden spoonists that year:
 
B Hinshelwood; S Danielli, T Philip, B Laney, S Webster; C Paterson, C Cusiter; T Smith, G Bulloch, B Douglas, S Murray, S Grimes, J White, S Taylor, C Mather.
 
Replacements: R Russell, G Kerr, N Hines, A Hogg, M Blair, D Parks, A Henderson
 
Let's compare:
- Ben Hinshelwood to Stuart Hogg
- Tom Philip to Matt Scott
- Brendan Laney to a runaway sofa (or, indeed, Mark Bennett)
- Simon Danielli to Tim Visser
- Simon Webster to Tommy Seymour
- Bruce Douglas (no disrespect) to Ryan Grant
- Robbie Russell to Dougie Hall
- Andy Henderson to my Mildly Racist Uncle Dougie or my 2 year old daughter
 
Feel better? The difference in the sheer quality of player is like night and day.

You could argue that we had a better (and more settled) pack back then (Smith, Bulloch, Murray, Grimes, White and Taylor all excellent players), but you're right, the outside backs on the pitch that day are pretty useless in comparison to what we have now.

Laney and Philip in the centres is pretty chunky and slow, Danielli was an underrated finisher but Visser is both bigger and faster (they share the same weaknesses though) and whilst Webster could be tricky, Seymour has made a real impact in a Scotland jersey and is far more direct.

As for Stuart Hogg vs Ben Hinshelwood......

Why does Visser still tackle like a wet tissue paper? It's unacceptable that a pro rugby player is such a pansie in the contact area.

He's not afraid of charging full tilt at people with the ball in hand so why is he so weak in defence?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:We need a little optimism here, I think.
 
Take a look at our team a decade ago and compare. This was the side that was spanked 13-35 by England in the 2004 Six Nations. We were wooden spoonists that year:
 
B Hinshelwood; S Danielli, T Philip, B Laney, S Webster; C Paterson, C Cusiter; T Smith, G Bulloch, B Douglas, S Murray, S Grimes, J White, S Taylor, C Mather.
 
Replacements: R Russell, G Kerr, N Hines, A Hogg, M Blair, D Parks, A Henderson
 
Let's compare:
- Ben Hinshelwood to Stuart Hogg
- Tom Philip to Matt Scott
- Brendan Laney to a runaway sofa (or, indeed, Mark Bennett)
- Simon Danielli to Tim Visser
- Simon Webster to Tommy Seymour
- Bruce Douglas (no disrespect) to Ryan Grant
- Robbie Russell to Dougie Hall
- Andy Henderson to my Mildly Racist Uncle Dougie or my 2 year old daughter
 
Feel better? The difference in the sheer quality of player is like night and day.

You could argue that we had a better (and more settled) pack back then (Smith, Bulloch, Murray, Grimes, White and Taylor all excellent players), but you're right, the outside backs on the pitch that day are pretty useless in comparison to what we have now.

Laney and Philip in the centres is pretty chunky and slow, Danielli was an underrated finisher but Visser is both bigger and faster (they share the same weaknesses though) and whilst Webster could be tricky, Seymour has made a real impact in a Scotland jersey and is far more direct.

As for Stuart Hogg vs Ben Hinshelwood......

Would never describe Tom Philip as chunky or slow, he is absolutely rapid and ripped. Was our first team head coach a couple seasons back and still had the skills and fitness to play at a high level but just didn't
have confidence to play again after the way the SRU broke him and treated him.
To be fair to Laney he was chunky but he did have a good motor on him especially for the first 20 metres or so. A player I thought was harshly criticised but was actually very good for Edinburgh and had some very good games for Scotland winning a few pretty much all by himself.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Why does Visser still tackle like a wet tissue paper? It's unacceptable that a pro rugby player is such a pansie in the contact area.

He's not afraid of charging full tilt at people with the ball in hand so why is he so weak in defence?

You tend to find that a lot of players who like the ball in their hand tend to mostly think thoughts about ball in their hands. Thus they can often get caught napping and dreaming about what they'll do next with the ball in their hands...when indeed they don't have a ball in their hands.

Majestic83 wrote:Would never describe Tom Philip as chunky or slow, he is absolutely rapid and ripped. Was our first team head coach a couple seasons back and still had the skills and fitness to play at a high level but just didn't
have confidence to play again after the way the SRU broke him and treated him.
To be fair to Laney he was chunky but he did have a good motor on him especially for the first 20 metres or so. A player I thought was harshly criticised but was actually very good for Edinburgh and had some very good games for Scotland winning a few pretty much all by himself.

Philip was a decent prospect, although another of the generation that preferred to run into people than look for, or put people into, space. Putting it another way - Laney was chunky and slow, Philip was large and physical (don't recall him being particularly quick), but hardly creative. Philip reminds me of Duncan Taylor. Given the limited glimpes we saw of Philip, difficult to judge him properly. I'd agree with that. He quit due to an injury if I recall, and it was one of those injuries that meant he could play in theory but that the injury could reoccur at any moment, and therefore he declined to play at pro level.

Laney's issue was that he was too slow for 15, definitely, but his hands and accelaration didn't really work at 12 to international standard. You're right to point out that he was effective for Edinburgh, but he was parachuted into the Scotland set-up far too quickly and without sufficient justification, and never really worked in any particular position in a Scotland jersey. John Leslie he was not.

I think Phillip would have been a brilliant centre for Scotland if he'd stayed fit - yes he'd not pass much but he was a one man wrecking ball, and definitely wasn't slow.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Why does Visser still tackle like a wet tissue paper? It's unacceptable that a pro rugby player is such a pansie in the contact area.

He's not afraid of charging full tilt at people with the ball in hand so why is he so weak in defence?

Whilst his defence is poor, I'd disagree with it being "unacceptable". I personally am willing to accept it in exchange for his strike rate. Scoring tries is the primary function of a winger, something Visser is very handy at.

Is it really that poor or is it a perception generated by one or two incidents? Youtube clips show some decent takles

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:Would never describe Tom Philip as chunky or slow, he is absolutely rapid and ripped. Was our first team head coach a couple seasons back and still had the skills and fitness to play at a high level but just didn't
have confidence to play again after the way the SRU broke him and treated him.
To be fair to Laney he was chunky but he did have a good motor on him especially for the first 20 metres or so. A player I thought was harshly criticised but was actually very good for Edinburgh and had some very good games for Scotland winning a few pretty much all by himself.

Philip was a decent prospect, although another of the generation that preferred to run into people than look for, or put people into, space. Putting it another way - Laney was chunky and slow, Philip was large and physical (don't recall him being particularly quick), but hardly creative. Philip reminds me of Duncan Taylor. Given the limited glimpes we saw of Philip, difficult to judge him properly. I'd agree with that. He quit due to an injury if I recall, and it was one of those injuries that meant he could play in theory but that the injury could reoccur at any moment, and therefore he declined to play at pro level.

Laney's issue was that he was too slow for 15, definitely, but his hands and accelaration didn't really work at 12 to international standard. You're right to point out that he was effective for Edinburgh, but he was parachuted into the Scotland set-up far too quickly and without sufficient justification, and never really worked in any particular position in a Scotland jersey. John Leslie he was not.

Tom pretty much was broken at the age of 20 after 5 caps for Scotland, he would have turned into a very good 13. At the time Matt Williams just wanted him to run at opponents but he did have a very good pass and offloading game.
He fully recovered from the knee and back injury he had but after being messed about by the coaches at Edinburgh and Scotland at that time he never regained the confidence he had and mentally wasn't able to get back to the mindset for playing again.
He did go play rugby league professionally for a season at the level below super league and did pretty well getting some rave reviews and then came to us to coach but had to give that up due to his business commitments.

Captain_Sensible wrote:The more I think about it, the more Barclay's fitness next season and for the World Cup is absolutely massive for us. Rennie is basically out of contention while he plays in the Championship, sadly, and Fusaro & Cowan are still unproven at international level.

Playing a fit and in form Barclay means that we can leave Harley and Brown to duke it out at blindside, and it gives us a great link player between the backs and forwards.

I would not completely right Rennie off just yet. There is still every possibility that he will end up loaned out to a better side in a higher league for the bulk of next season, then coming back to Bristol for the play offs. They really did miss him for this year final and he may have been the missing link in their back row which meant that LW murdered them at the breakdown.

Who knows he may even come back to Edinburgh, I can't beleive that AR would want to stand in the way of his international ambitions!

And if Edinburgh don't want him, then we would be very happy to have him at Glasgow!

Interesting that he looked at rugby league. I could see him being effective in that style of play.

Matt Williams was so wrong for Scottish rugby. I've read that he wanted the players to know precisely what blade of grass they should be on and where, and placed enormous emphasis on "systems" rather than trusting players to read the game. You can put lipstick on a pig and all that.....

The reaction when Frank Haddock took over was in a sense alarming. It was like a weight had been lifted from the players. It doesn't surprise me to hear that Philip had the shackles put on his game by Matt Williams. The best coaches adapt to the players at their disposal, which was certainly a key failing of Williams. He sought to impose "systems" on the Scottish players which just didn't play to their strengths.

BigGee wrote:
I would not completely right Rennie off just yet. There is still every possibility that he will end up loaned out to a better side in a higher league for the bulk of next season, then coming back to Bristol for the play offs. They really did miss him for this year final and he may have been the missing link in their back row which meant that LW murdered them at the breakdown.

Who knows he may even come back to Edinburgh, I can't beleive that AR would want to stand in the way of his international ambitions!

Agree with this.

Even if he plays Championship rugby this season, I'd still take him ahead of Cowan or Fusaro. He's a class player.

A form Barclay will run him close though.

I would be happy to see a bit more of Cowan, I thought he did ok. Be good to see him against better opposition though.

Much as i lke Fusaro as a player for Glasgow, I think he is just to small and underpowered for international rugby

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I would love to agree with what I hope is a dwindling number of people who might maintain that Scotland 'doesn't need Josh Strauss' but if this series showed anything, it's that this couldn't be more wrong and we need him quite badly. Let's hope Denton shows up again in the autumn after a concussion-free break.

Let me be quite clear about that. The point I raised previously is that the WC squad should be decided on form. Nothing else matters.

The Glasgow fans at the end of last season were waxing lyrical about Strauss, queuing up to stroke his beard, and proclaiming that he would be part of the World Cup squad on the condition that he was alive and well. My point was that he would have zero chance to stake his claim prior to the World Cup in an international jersey, which would make it difficult for him to be selected provided Denton and Beattie (and two of Harley, Brown and Strokosch) were playing well and had strong 6 Nations/AIs. In that regard I was suggesting that good international form would trump good club form. The list of players excelling in a club jersey and looking bewildered in an international jersey is too long to set out here. No reason to suggest Strauss would add to that list, but equally no reason to suggest that he wouldn't. We just won't know when it comes to selection.

As it happens none of the alternatives played well over the summer (with perhaps the exception of Rob Harley), and were we picking a squad now and were Strauss available, I would have no hesitation selecting him. I think Strokosch, Brown and Beattie would all be vulnerable to being dropped, and could have no complaint (Brown could complain that he was being shafted by being forced to play 7 in a completely exhausted state, but if he's being considered at 7 then Strauss is unlikely to replace him, more likely Cowan, Barclay or Rennie as specialists in that position).

if strauss is the best he should be in end of story.

alive555 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I would love to agree with what I hope is a dwindling number of people who might maintain that Scotland 'doesn't need Josh Strauss' but if this series showed anything, it's that this couldn't be more wrong and we need him quite badly. Let's hope Denton shows up again in the autumn after a concussion-free break.

Let me be quite clear about that. The point I raised previously is that the WC squad should be decided on form. Nothing else matters.

The Glasgow fans at the end of last season were waxing lyrical about Strauss, queuing up to stroke his beard, and proclaiming that he would be part of the World Cup squad on the condition that he was alive and well. My point was that he would have zero chance to stake his claim prior to the World Cup in an international jersey, which would make it difficult for him to be selected provided Denton and Beattie (and two of Harley, Brown and Strokosch) were playing well and had strong 6 Nations/AIs. In that regard I was suggesting that good international form would trump good club form. The list of players excelling in a club jersey and looking bewildered in an international jersey is too long to set out here. No reason to suggest Strauss would add to that list, but equally no reason to suggest that he wouldn't. We just won't know when it comes to selection.

As it happens none of the alternatives played well over the summer (with perhaps the exception of Rob Harley), and were we picking a squad now and were Strauss available, I would have no hesitation selecting him. I think Strokosch, Brown and Beattie would all be vulnerable to being dropped, and could have no complaint (Brown could complain that he was being shafted by being forced to play 7 in a completely exhausted state, but if he's being considered at 7 then Strauss is unlikely to replace him, more likely Cowan, Barclay or Rennie as specialists in that position).

i think i pushed this a few months ago and rdw was concerned about some bs excuse.

no hes the best hes in end of story.

Well with reasoning like that, I think we're all now convinced. Can't believe I didn't think of that......

Scotland really missed Denton in the tour or a player like Strauss. Someone who will take the ball in the tight and hammer it up.

People often criticized Denton on here for always seeking the contact. Wheras in the games against Argentina, USA and Canada we missed that bullying mentallity.

My biggest gripe with Denton is that he goes to ground too easily, and you rarely see him seeking to stay on his feet and offload. It often means that the opposition get too long to compete for the ball as well. I have no issue with his confrontational approach and eagerness to smash into the opposition - it's exactly what he's picked for - but the great ball carrying number 8s in international rugby have that additional dimension.

If you watch for example players like Parisse, Vunipola and Read, whilst they carry into contact a great deal, they are always on the look out for the offload. That's one aspect that Denton could improve on.

Don't get me wrong, Denton is a very good number 8 and will carry the ball for the cause all day long, but at international level it's rare that you can simply bust through tackles, so being able to offload to your support and suck in more defenders becomes important.

It will be a sad day for me when Josh plays for Scotland, he was one of my favourite South African players when he left.

I am sure though that if he does run out for Scotland it will be to their benefit.

Biltong wrote:It will be a sad day for me when Josh plays for Scotland, he was one of my favourite South African players when he left.

I am sure though that if he does run out for Scotland it will be to their benefit.

totally agree. if hes fit he will be ahead of denton imho. great great player.

fear the beard