Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

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Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

Notch wrote:Here's my predicted team for Saturday. None of the Ireland players are available as they are in camp with the national side preparing for the South Africa game. I'm not sure what the injury status of Michael Allen and Rory Scholes is. They might be out injured, hence their absence from the Ravens, which would leave the cupboards bare with Gilroy and Bowe away and Trimble injured too.

1. Andrew Warwick
2. Rob Herring
3. Declan Fitzpatrick
4. Lewis Stevenson
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Roger Wilson (c)
7. Clive Ross
8. Nick Williams
9. Paul Marshall
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Michael Allen/Ross Adair
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Darren Cave
14. Rory Scholes/Jacob Stockdale
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew
17. Callum Black/Ruaidhri Murphy/Dave Ryan
18. Wiehahn Herbst/Bronson Ross
19. Neil McComb
20. Sean Reidy/Charlie Butterworth
21. Michael Heaney
22. Ian Humphreys
23. AN Other from Peter Nelson, Ross Adair, Jacob Stockdale, Ricky Andrew, Jack Owens

Notch I saw scholes with a moonboot on the other day so I suspect he is definitely out... Allen looks fine but I'm not sure how much contact he can take on the shoulder.

I'd go for Ricky Andrew on the bench, with the option of moving Ludik to 13 or wing if needed.

lostinwales wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:You know what gets me is that contact with a player in the air is always treated like it was an intentional act to injure a player it seems. Yes the Payne incident was an accident that ended up injured a player and had a serious outcome which swayed the ref's decision at the time. However just look at the game against Leicester two weeks back. Bowe makes contact with the Leicester player in the air (Scully was it?) and is penalised. Watched back again and Bowe is racing onto the ball in an attempt, reckless as it may seem, to gain possession for Ulster. Bowe is a at full pelt and it's as Bowe is perhaps 2 running paces away the Leicester player takes to the air giving Leicester an automatic penalty. It's cases like that I'd like ref's to officiate in context with the actual event instead of ticking that particular penalising box. All I'm saying is there are many times where blame cannot be allotted to any particular player.

The problem is though Pete they are bound by the rules, it was Benjamin who was tackled by both Bowe and Gilroy and went up late both times, though in Gilroys case he was reckless going in head down and over committing himself to the tackle.

I'm sure more than one person on here post-Payne stated that it would happen and seems to be the case

Yep, every time I see it happen I do remember a number of us on here saying it would become part of the game and I'm afraid it has.
Yes indeed, Benjamin it was and both times IMO knew exactly what he was doing. In the Gilroy case young Craig was called stupid a number of times but if you watch it again he was clearly unsighted and went blind for the tackle.
I just think refs need to use their heads in these cases and realise it's not always the man on the ground who's at fault.....if you know what I mean.

You do know that Benjamin has missed a lot of rugby due to broken vertebra in his neck? It may be that he did 'know what he was doing' but of all the players out there he has more reason than most to understand the consequences of things going wrong

If Benjamin has a problem with his neck and therefore a weakness there he should not be playing rugby.
I think he mustn't have any problem otherwise medical advice would be pushing him towards a less physical career. As for knowing better because of his injury well that's just daft, players are badly injured all the time but it doesn't force them to shirk the same injury causing physicality again which leads me to believe that Benjamin, like all players of our beautiful game, is a very brave guy.

"What I didn't understand when I saw the team announced was the dropping of McCloskey. Bastareaud is a monster sized center and Olding is a small center so naturally the bulk of Bastareaud made easy yardage against Olding."

Exactly Profitius, unless the guy was injured he should have been starting.

Speaking of big units who are very talented is O'Connor allowed to play this week?

O'Connor is on the naughty step for another week. I'm looking forward to watching how he gets on over the next few weeks, along with Ross and maybe Stockdale on Friday.

Chris Farrell has signed a 2 year extension to his Grenoble contract.

I might be annoyed if we were stuck for centres, but thankfully we aren't. Great for Farrell. I'm delighted for him doing so well at Grenoble. Scored a great Try at the weekend as well.

2 years sounds about right for continuing his development, and maybe coming back to Ireland once his contract is up?

Nah I have to disagree with you both lads. I think Olding over McCloskey was the right call.

The coaching staff clearly saw we weren't going to be able to outmuscle Toulon- that was obvious from a glance at the two packs of forwards. We don't have the muscle. So the plan was, I think, to keep the tempo high and to play with speed to move their bigger pack around and tire them out. You can see that with the way Paul Marshall was constantly trying to tap and go and Barnes was making him stop, which must have had Doak doing whatever bald men do instead of pulling their hair out.

The reason it didn't work is clear- they won the contact and the breakdown, so they controlled the tempo of the game from start to finish. Us losing that key battle, allied to us losing the scrum battle, meant we had to play the game on Toulons terms- which was based around a slow, attritional game- as opposed to how we wanted to play which was high tempo.

Now we failed to ever get our game plan started, its true, but if we did Olding is exactly the guy you want because he is a second decision maker outside Jackson, creative and able to create opportunities for other players especially in broken play. It's true we lost out in defence slightly with a smaller centre and the same thought re. McCloskey occurred to me too. But its swings and roundabouts.

We had to do some things to win this game we couldn't do. One of the most important, because its the only way we were ever going to score some tries, is we had to keep the tempo high and the continuity game rolling. If we couldn't keep that tempo high and create broken field situations and mismatches I think the odds were always heavily against us winning anyway... so whether McCloskey would have been better for a slower game is a moot point. A slow game, which is what we got, was always a losing proposition.

I think Olding only looks like the wrong choice in hindsight because we never were able to impose our game plan, but I think he was the right choice for the game plan we were trying to play. You have to hand it to Toulon for tactically disrupting us at breakdown which won the game. While I'm disappointed with the result and the fact we didn't get the tempo up I'm encouraged by the ambition and the fact the coaches want us playing high intensity rugby in big games because we don't have the pack anymore to go toe to toe with the big boys. We'll only be beating teams with really seasoned packs like that Toulon one if we can run them off their feet first.

Now this, in a sense, is where the assessment of Doak as Head Coach begins for me. First few months in the job is a honeymoon period and a free pass because he's learning about the group of players he has, what their limitations are and thats hard until you actually come up against a wall like we have done. This defeat has to some extent spelled out the challenges we need to surmount to be successful. Here are the areas I think the coaches need to address, and I think they are holistic- every player needs to improve these aspects of their game.

1) The breakdown- Clear out needs to come sooner, be more accurate, be more aggressive right from 1 to 15. The difference between the ball being available to us just a few seconds earlier in most breakdowns would have such a galvanising effect on our back line, who look lethal in broken play!

2) Offloading game. It feels like we used this a LOT at the start of the season, like against the Scarlets, and the accuracy wasn't there. There were too many dropped balls, so it seems like we've shied away from it because of that innacuracy. We need to improve our ball skills right across the board from 1 to 15. We need to be able to keep the ball alive and away from the rucks where we are vulnerable to the savvier teams. And we need to be confident that every player on the team can take and give offloads whatever number is on their back.

3) Beyond the set piece and maul. We beat Glasgow really well because we dominated the set piece and, ironically, were therefore able to do to them to some extent what Toulon did to us. Because the game they naturally always want to play is similar to the way we needed to play to beat Toulon. But while our set piece and tight game is good in the Pro12, when it comes to Europe, we're outgunned by the French packs right now. I believe this tight five can catch up to the best packs in Europe long term, especially with guys like Andy Warwick and Iain Henderson who are just gonna get better and better. In the Pro12 we can rely on our scrum and maul as weapons- I feel like at times we fell back to the comfort zone of trying to use them like that against Toulon, before realising we had brought a knife to a gun fight when it comes to the attritional parts of the game.

For instance, one tactic that was extremely successful against Glasgow off slow ball was this kind of wedge maul. Ball gets slowed right down, so Wiehahn Herbst takes the ball at first receiver and takes contact upright, rest of the tight five swarm around him and we set the maul and get going forward again. Now I really want to see that in the Pro12, because against the likes of Glasgow who have a less physical pack it can be so effective, but that was never the play against Toulon who wanted us to be tight and physical because that is so within their comfort zone defensively. So when we tried it it just didn't work.

All in all, I feel much more encouraged than discouraged by our results in Europe thus far because with such changes in both the coaching staff and the playing staff it wasn't immediately clear what we needed to do to move forward or how the strengths of the team had changed. This defeat gives the coaches a very clear indication of what our weaknesses are. We now wait to see if they and the players can work together and address them and get us moving forward as a team. But the first step in succeeding is knowing what you need to do. Success only comes after a culmination of failures. What do you do when you fail? You get up and take another shot at it. You learn from it and you progress and you push on.

Yeah, we failed to beat Toulon and it would be easy to get negative about it. But failure is always, always the prelude to success- in any walk of life. And Ulster Rugby is much the same. I don't think this is a group of players or coaches who would ever tolerate mediocrity, I hope I'm right in saying that as a fan who has no patience for those who do, and I hope that a culture of demanding excellence can flourish at Ulster. Not just demanding excellence but looking at other teams and other players and thinking- what extra thing can I do to be better than them, to surpass them. When that happens, failures lead to successes almost inevitably because the sheer commitment and volume of hard work that they demand of themselves will take them there.

Jeeeeeeez Notch that's a novel.
That's the 'War and Peace' of 606v2.....and BBC606.
It was a good read indeed, real journalism ever tempted you matey? You definately can do a post-match autopsy better than any of the journos I've read

I do still disagree re: fielding Olding in the starting XV. I believe Olding is the most talented player we've produced from the Ulster player farm full stop. I still believe that we could have gone high tempo with McCloskey and still had the backup of Olding. To play Olding with no McCloskey left us with no plan B, not that any plan B would have helped, Toulon, even at a canter need more than that.

I also disagree that failure is always a prelude to success, sometimes it's a prelude to more failure. We are of course far too strong for that, we will have success this year. Whether that means silverware is another thing but success can't be measured by that in my opinion. A play-off place and whatever comes after to me will be success. Progressing in Europe will be a miracle but hey, who knows when our injured etc come back. We can beat anyone on our day and if we can get out of this european group by winning every game to come then I'll bet a lot of money on us winning the damn thing outright.

I know we all love him, but I've been saying throughout the course of this season that Henry is off form. That is where the breakdown troubles are coming from coupled with him having a 6 and 8 who don't really hit rucks hard or fast enough. If we are going to be making a signings after the WC, then a top 6 and squad 7 would be the priority for me.

Pete330v2 wrote:I also disagree that failure is always a prelude to success, sometimes it's a prelude to more failure.

Oh yeah, most definitely! But what I meant is... well, sometimes failure is a prelude to more failure for various reasons. But there is never such a thing as instant success in life. So if someone is successful, they will always have made mistakes before that. They will always have failed, taken the lessons onboard and kept building towards success- and not let those early failures get on top of them. It never, ever, ever happens overnight. So it's not that failure always leads to success. Its that success is always preceded by failure, to some extent. Unless you've enjoyed some stroke of absolutely cosmic luck!

It's why I feel so passionately about defending the coaching staff from criticism in the wake of this result. They have to have room to fail in the first few months of their tenure. They're judged not on those opening months or what happens in them, but how they react to it. Thats how we'll know if they are going to be successful or not; we're defined by whether this defeat spurs us on to greater things or whether we continue on at the same level. It's how the players or coaches react to these last two weeks that defines us as a team. I'm still waiting to see what happens next before judging them; I won't pass judgment on Doak as Head Coach until the end of the season at the earliest. Thats the same courtesy I extend to every coach. I did the same with McLaughlin, Anscombe, Williams, Kidney etc.

I do feel we have some serious problems in the composition of our squad that could very easily derail our season entirely though, regardless of what the coaches and players do. They've been covered in detail by other posters including by ArtfulDodger above- totally agree with your analysis there Dodge. Lack of depth in the back row. Lack of class in the back row- the guys are good players at Pro12 level but only Chris Henry can really mix it at the European Cup level, or international level and he can only play so many games before getting fatigued and losing form or else getting injured. The back row is so crucial. It's also the position most prone to injury.

So it still seems crazy to me that we used an NIQ spot on another fullback instead of an area of weakness in the first team AND an area where we lack depth. But that seems to be David Humphreys mistake that he's left behind him, from the outside. Hard to tell of course, it could equally come down to the IRFU exerting pressure for Payne to play 13 or the player himself pushing for that.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I know we all love him, but I've been saying throughout the course of this season that Henry is off form.  That is where the breakdown troubles are coming from coupled with him having a 6 and 8 who don't really hit rucks hard or fast enough.  If we are going to be making a signings after the WC, then a top 6 and squad 7 would be the priority for me.

In fairness I think Henry is being overloaded. He actually turned over some good ball against toulon and topped the tackle count iirc. I don't think he is getting the support needed

Notch wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I also disagree that failure is always a prelude to success, sometimes it's a prelude to more failure.

Oh yeah, most definitely! But what I meant is... well, sometimes failure is a prelude to more failure for various reasons. But there is never such a thing as instant success in life. So if someone is successful, they will always have made mistakes before that. They will always have failed, taken the lessons onboard and kept building towards success- and not let those early failures get on top of them. It never, ever, ever happens overnight. So it's not that failure always leads to success. Its that success is always preceded by failure, to some extent. Unless you've enjoyed some stroke of absolutely cosmic luck!

It's why I feel so passionately about defending the coaching staff from criticism in the wake of this result. They have to have room to fail in the first few months of their tenure. They're judged not on those opening months or what happens in them, but how they react to it. Thats how we'll know if they are going to be successful or not; we're defined by whether this defeat spurs us on to greater things or whether we continue on at the same level. It's how the players or coaches react to these last two weeks that defines us as a team. I'm still waiting to see what happens next before judging them; I won't pass judgment on Doak as Head Coach until the end of the season at the earliest. Thats the same courtesy I extend to every coach. I did the same with McLaughlin, Anscombe, Williams, Kidney etc.

I do feel we have some serious problems in the composition of our squad that could very easily derail our season entirely though, regardless of what the coaches and players do. They've been covered in detail by other posters including by ArtfulDodger above- totally agree with your analysis there Dodge. Lack of depth in the back row. Lack of class in the back row- the guys are good players at Pro12 level but only Chris Henry can really mix it at the European Cup level, or international level and he can only play so many games before getting fatigued and losing form or else getting injured. The back row is so crucial. It's also the position most prone to injury.

So it still seems crazy to me that we used an NIQ spot on another fullback instead of an area of weakness in the first team AND an area where we lack depth. But that seems to be David Humphreys mistake that he's left behind him, from the outside. Hard to tell of course, it could equally come down to the IRFU exerting pressure for Payne to play 13 or the player himself pushing for that.

I was only kidding Notch and I agree, sometimes you have to fall back a little towards failure in order that you can make the big push to success. The problem for me is what Alan Quinlan had pointed out in his article. Ulster have pressed the reset button more than most and we've not had a long term well settled period for a very long time. We started to look settled under McLaughlin then boom, Anscombe comes in. I begin to think maybe he can prove the doubters wrong in his second season and then boom, we are rudderless. We badly need a stable environment for multiple seasons and we may get that after the RWC with the return of Kiss but until then it's always going to feel like the temporary fix with change just over the horizon. It's not just that I don't rate Doak's chances but the fact that we all know he's only going to be in post for one season. Kiss will come in as DOR which we all know is really head coach. It's like waiting for the second coming......it IS waiting on the second coming
I hope I'm underrating Doak's chances of success and there's every chance that I am but we're far enough into the season to know what to expect from Ulster or at least that's how it usually goes. So far we've been bland with a few glimmers of our old selves. I am hoping and praying to the rugby gods that we can kick on this week and move forward onto better times.

I think thats the plan. Kiss and Doak for a long time. And give them a long time, give them time to build up some continuity. Thats another reason I got so testy the other day when Doaks credentials were called into a question a mere three games into the season!

Its very clear that Les Kiss rates Doak as a coach though. He was the man who Kiss handpicked as his assistant when he was in temporary charge of the irish national team between Kidney leaving and Schmidt starting- so a) Kiss obviously values his input as a coach and b) They obviously have very compatible philosophies about how the game should be played. So I would say even as he's temporarily departed he's actually picked the man he wants to work with and he wants running things in the interim.

Actually it's interesting. I think it was Matt Williams who first brought Doak into the fold as skills coach. McLaughlin gave him a wider brief. Anscombe hadn't decided if he was going to keep the Ulster coaches around, but he was impressed with what he saw and did. Now we have Les Kiss who obviously backs Doak too.

So we know he's a good coach. It will take time to see whether he is the right coach.

On Alan Quinlan, I take his views on Ulster with a large pinch of salt because I think he was a guy who had a lot of respect for Brian McLaughlin as a player who worked with him, I think he looked up to McLaughlin in his playing days and I think that personal relationship he had with McLaughlin colours his opinions on everything thats happened regarding coaching and Ulster since he left.

Now I say that as someone who has a lot of respect for McLaughlin and a lot of respect for Quinlan too. I really respect Alan Quinlan not just as a pundit but as an advocate for awareness of mental health issues in sporting culture. I just don't think Quinlan is able to speak about this one specific topic impartially.

I see Bryn Cunnigham has been appointed new Team Manager. Great shout. A guy who knows Ulster rugby outside and in and will bring the knowledge he's gained working as an agent to the recruitment process.

From EPCR:

Taofifenua was cited by the match Citing Commissioner, Peter Larter (England), for allegedly kicking the Ulster Rugby centre, Stuart Olding, in the head during the 47th minute of the Pool 3 game at Kingspan Stadium in contravention of Law 10.4 (c).

Law 10.4 (c) Kicking an opponent. A player must not kick an opponent
Under the IRB Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 10.4 (c) Kicking an opponent carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 4 weeks; Mid-Range: 8 weeks; Top End: 12+ to 52 weeks.

The independent Judicial Officer, Christopher Quinlan (England), heard evidence from Taofifenua, from RC Toulon's legal representative, John O'Donnell SC, and from the tournament Disciplinary Officer.

In upholding the citing complaint, the Judicial Officer determined that the offence was reckless and warranted a red card, but that it was at the low end (four weeks) of the IRB sanctions for offences of this nature. As there were no aggravating factors, he reduced the suspension by one week due to the player's good conduct during the hearing.

Taofifenua is free to play on Monday, 17 November 2014. Both the player and EPCR have the right to appeal the decision.

Ulster XV & Replacements to play Newport Gwent Dragons, Guinness PRO12, Kingspan Stadium, Saturday 1st November, 19:35

(15-9): S Olding; L Ludik, D Cave, S McCloskey P Nelson; P Jackson, P Marshall;

(1-8): C Black, R Herring, W Herbst, L Stevenson, F vd Merwe, C Ross, S Reidy, R Wilson (Capt);

Replacements (16-23): J Andrew, A Warwick, D Fitzpatrick, N McComb, R Diack, M Heaney, I Humphreys, R Andrew.

I kinda want to see more of murphy at loosehead, the last match he played in his body position and drive angle at the scrum was terrible, and what peed me off was that he never adjusted it once. I just want to see if he has learned anything from that or if they are doing much with him. I did see he tweeted about going to New York this Sunday to knew he wasn't going to get a match.  

I know we need a win but I would have rested herbst and VDM, especially as we are one or two injuries away from Deccie fitz getting a call up to the Ireland squad. We may as well get him some match fitness and see if he is up to fitness wise and mentally. I would have stuck him in at 3 with the aim to make him play the 80min. Good to see cave at 13, I hope he has a sensational game and shows joe what he is missing out on.

Also good to see our new recruits in the back row, let's hope they are beginning of the solution to our back row "issues".

BDV I was fit to be tied watching Murphy in that game. I can't remember who it was against but we were lucky to have officials who completely missed what Murphy was doing in that game. It's such an obvious fault that you'd like to think it's been spotted and moves at least started to fix it.

It'll be very interesting to see how Reidy goes, Ross having shown he doesn't look out of place on an Ulster side, all be it from very limited gametime.
I like the look of this side, a side the makeup of which could start to look familiar during the AIs. Our midfield pairing is very much to my liking and Olding has shown he can be outstanding from 15. Ludik has played wing before and I am starting to think he could perform well in any position, a great signing. On the subject of the wings where is Stockdale?

Not a bad team, although I was hoping to see Stockdale playing this week. Is it not a bit odd having both Reidy and Ross starting with Diack on the bench?

I'm not sure if it's just my PC here in work but are the posting times all up the left on here as it claims that I posted the team announcement last night at three minutes past ten. Is the 606 clock not wound up?

Interesting team! I actually really like it.

Firstly, no Nick Williams. Not a lot of players had a good game against Toulon but he's the one who stands out as having had a particularly bad game. So there's a message there. Hard to know from the outside whether he needs the arm around the shoulder or to be told if you still want this blydi earn it back again the hard way.

Secondly, two really interesting surprises. We were told in the media that Declan Fitzpatrick would be starting ahead of Herbst and Fitzpatrick was interviewed for the BBC- normally thats a sure fire sign a players in. And it made sense, because Herbst needs to be managed.

I just wonder if it has anything to do with Nathan White getting injured. We can't really afford too many Irish tight heads getting injured. Deccie is almost next in line by default and we all know what his injury record is like. The poor guy makes Calamity Jane look like Pedrie Wannenburg.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/ireland-prop-1755621-Oct2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Called it. I personally would go for Furlong, that guy is the real deal. The fact that Bent is mentioned in that article is a joke, the loosehead from my ladies team could destroy that clown at 3. He was terrible for Leinster in their two ERC games, I actually lay a lot of their poor performance at his door, a team will always find it hard to get things going if their scrum is going backwards or conceding penalty after penalty.

BelfastDickVet wrote:http://thescore.thejournal.ie/ireland-prop-1755621-Oct2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Called it. I personally would go for Furlong, that guy is the real deal. The fact that Bent is mentioned in that article is a joke, the loosehead from my ladies team could destroy that clown at 3. He was terrible for Leinster in their two ERC games, I actually lay a lot of their poor performance at his door, a team will always find it hard to get things going if their scrum is going backwards or conceding penalty after penalty.

Seeing as the coaches that watch both of these players EVERY DAY in training, and know more about them than you or I, selected Bent ahead of Furlong in BOTH Euro games, I would have to completely disagree with you there.

Also having 8 points from those two games would give a bit of a lie to your "poor performance" opinion. Leinster went away to France and won with a massively understrength team. I was at both games and he was far from "a clown" or "terrible" The Castres LH was scrumaging sideways the whole game. And he made a decent fist of English International Matt Mullan (With Bradley Davies and Launchbury behind him) in the Wasps game.

Having said that. Not great options behind Ross, Moore and White.

Archer, Ah You, Fitzpatrick, Bent, Furlong. We are still not producing THs in any great quantity or quality. All of those have their good and bad points but would you fancy any of them v the beast or Steenkamp

I just want to start by saying I wasn't trying to attract Leinster at all in the above comment but you can't say that those two performances where decent by leinsters standards, you just can't. I am bloody delighted they won, I love to see Irish clubs do well. But that wasn't the Leinster we know and love.

So you are saying he is a good scrummager? Better that furlong? I'm not so sure , his technique isn't the best, he doesn't handle the drive through well at all, I think he tried to adjust his stance in a few of scrums vs wasps and just buckled.  it almost as though his back isn't fully straight when the packs bind and the drive comes through, He is a competent loosehead, probably because he is sharing that pressure with decent hookers, leinsters 2 hookers are great scrummagers in my opinion. It's not a slight on bent, decent loosehead terrible tight head. I think bent may have selected for his experience and possibly his work in the loose.

I used the term clown to add dramatic emphasis to the point I was trying to make and to be honest I did think he played terribly in both games, I was watching both matches in a pub with the fella who coaches with me who is a Leinster lad and he emphatically agreed as did a lot if the other Leinster supporters around us. It's funny Leinster best period of play in the wasps match was when bent went off and furlong got your scrum going forwards, leading to your try.

I have high hopes for furlong his body shape is perfect for the modern prop, he has a very good technique and is decent in the loose too.
I think the Leinster academy boys are doing a decent enough job at producing tightheads, they are certainly digging Ireland out of a whole right now.

I also disagree with you about the Castres tighthead, I just think he had your number that day.

BelfastDickVet wrote:I also disagree with you about the Castres tighthead, I just think he had your number that day.

It was the Loose Head and he was facing the touchline at every scrum.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:I also disagree with you about the Castres tighthead, I just think he had your number that day.

It was the Loose Head and he was facing the touchline at every scrum.

I can't say I noticed that, but I will take your word for it. I though their 3 was fairly good as well he did have young McGrath pinned back easy enough, but that doesn't bother me too much, he is still fairly green and days like that teach young fellas a hell of a lot in the scrum.

BelfastDickVet wrote:I just want to start by saying I wasn't trying to attract Leinster at all in the above comment but you can't say that those two performances where decent by leinsters standards, you just can't.

Of course it wasn't. Leinster had
Rob Kearney
Mike Ross
Cian Healy
Sean O'Brien
Shane Jennings
Leo Cullen
Brad Thorne/Nathan Hines
Jonny Sexton
Brian O'Driscoll
Isa Nacewa
Shane Horgan
Fergus McFadden
etc etc.
when they were setting those standards. None of whom were in Castres.

BelfastDickVet wrote:

So you are saying he is a good scrummager? Better that furlong? I'm not so sure , his technique isn't the best, he doesn't handle the drive through well at all, I think he tried to adjust his stance in a few of scrums vs wasps and just buckled.  it almost as though his back isn't fully straight when the packs bind and the drive comes through, He is a competent loosehead, probably because he is sharing that pressure with decent hookers, leinsters 2 hookers are great scrummagers in my opinion. It's not a slight on bent, decent loosehead terrible tight head. I think bent may have selected for his experience and possibly his work in the loose.

He is much better on the LH side. He ain't great in the loose. His pillar defence ain't great and he is unremarkable as a carrier. However he is one of the best 3rd choice LHs and 4th choice THs around.

BelfastDickVet wrote:

I used the term clown to add dramatic emphasis to the point I was trying to make and to be honest I did think he played terribly in both games, I was watching both matches in a pub with the fella who coaches with me who is a Leinster lad and he emphatically agreed as did a lot if the other Leinster supporters around us. It's funny Leinster best period of play in the wasps match was when bent went off and furlong got your scrum going forwards, leading to your try.

The TH side dis improved when Bent went off IMHO.

BelfastDickVet wrote:
I have high hopes for furlong his body shape is perfect for the modern prop, he has a very good technique and is decent in the loose too.

Agreed. But he is only about 5 in Prop years.

If my memory serves me right, The first scrum after furlong came on , they got a shove on and then wheeled the wasp scrum slightly, setting up the phases which led to the try. The scrum improved dramatically when furlong came on, that may have also been due to the fact he was fresh the opposition props were also probably tireing at that stage making furlongs job easier.

Dragons are quite weak tomorrow. A ten at 15. A premiership player on a month's loan at 13, off form Brew on the wing, a backrow at lock, without our best 7 and having an academy/premiership boy instead and finally a poor tighthead starting. Ulster will be comfortable

Dragons: J Tovey, M Pewtner, R Williams, A Smith, A Brew, A O’Brien, R Rees, B Stankovich, R Thomas, D Way, J Thomas, R Landman (captain), L Evans, J Benjamin, A Powell. Replacements: E Dee, O Evans, L Fairbrother, S Andrews, O Griffiths, J Evans, G R Jones, A Hewitt.

Risca Rev wrote:Dragons are quite weak tomorrow. A ten at 15. A premiership player on a month's loan at 13, off form Brew on the wing, a backrow at lock, without our best 7 and having an academy/premiership boy instead and finally a poor tighthead starting. Ulster will be comfortable

Dragons: J Tovey, M Pewtner, R Williams, A Smith, A Brew, A O’Brien, R Rees, B Stankovich, R Thomas, D Way, J Thomas, R Landman (captain), L Evans, J Benjamin, A Powell. Replacements: E Dee, O Evans, L Fairbrother, S Andrews, O Griffiths, J Evans, G R Jones, A Hewitt.

I hope not for your sake and ours. Firstly you are making the trip so it will be a better experience if Dragons play well. Secondly, after the Toulon match we need a hard game. We desperately need a win of course, thats the number one thing, but the ideal situation would be a win where we need to show some character and backbone.

If they keep trying to run the ball, you might get a bit of a workout, but I think we might go back to the dreaded kicking game and your guys will lap that up. I think Ulster by 15. An ideal result for me would be an LBP and a battling performance, but without our in form 7 to get over the ball I worry a bit. I hope we have a good crack and we win our own set piece (we blew three or four lineouts in great positions last week).

The other side of the coin for Ulster is that Glasgow and the Ospreys got 4 point wins last night. So if we can get a 5 pointer that would be great. But its not exactly something we can take for granted at all given all the changes in the back line and especially in the back row. It's quite a relief to hear that Dragons are missing their best 7, because we got a doing last week at the breakdown and are giving a guy his NH professional debut at 7 ourselves. So the back row battle will be interesting because Ulster could be relatively weak there.

I also wonder whether we can have a crack at their scrum. Dan Way has been given big problems by us in previous games.

Never mind all that Notch. What we really need your boys to do is stuff Ospreys and leave them pointless in your winter double header over the next month or so.

George Carlin wrote:Never mind all that Notch. What we really need your boys to do is stuff Ospreys and leave them pointless in your winter double header over the next month or so.

You view the Ospreys as the greater threat to your ambitions then? Not without reason in the short term but in the long term doing that may come back to bite you! There's obviously no love lost between Ulster and Glasgow since our last meeting and you get the sense that if Ulster get to our game at Scotstoun within touching distance of Glasgow or ahead of them they might be keen to make a few points about who the real pretenders to Leinsters throne are, just as they did the last time the two sides met. Careful what you wish for!

To be honest, I'd probably be hoping all the teams around you take points off each other instead of any one team getting the whip hand over another. In previous seasons Glasgow have been focused entirely on the race for the playoffs whilst Ulster have had the problem of trying to balance both that and a European campaign. You might find that our roles are reversed this year. I congratulate Glasgow on their wonderful start to their European campaign- and was genuinely delighted to see you make Guscott look like a fool- but the two fronts thing... man, thats not something thats easy nor is it something that Glasgow have experience of. They've never had to deal with being in Europe after Christmas which seems to me to be traditionally when they start to really get motoring in the Pro12. Ulster have often struggled for consistency then and through the back end of the season, playing two cup finals in January and then having your entire season building towards the quarter-finals is very taxing. If our roles are reversed it might be misplaced to assume that that pattern will repeat itself and Glasgow won't give more ground in the league than they do in normal, non-qualifying years.

You'll be delighted to know I hope Glasgow go all the way in Europe. Hell I hope you win the whole thing! I would be sincerely delighted. For, eh, a variety of reasons. Some more selfish than others

I hope it's a Leinster vs Glasgow final in Europe. A big Pro12 love-in. We'll just quietly sneak in and take the Pro12 thanks...

Not that it will be. Glasgow and Leinster no more have the forward muscle to match Toulon than we did.

I swear to God I saw Ian Humphries make a half tackle this evening..

I thought I saw that too ME-109 but it must be my eyes playing tricks on me.  Glad I wasn't at Ravenhill tonight that would not have been good for my health lol
Thoughts on the game, we had a good first half but that last 30 minutes was brutal we really should have got the 5 points there we just seemed to panic a bit.  
On the positive side Oldng was excellent, McCloskey was good too and is really growing into this side.  Reidy was also very good, really made a nuisance of himself and did well in attack too, made me feel better about him as an option when Henry is gone.
All in all we get the win now need to really re focus for Ospreys

Impressed with Olding alright...

Missed bonus point but Olding is class. I think he could replace Payne as our 15. He's played probably the best two games of his career in that position so it's worth a look.

But missed bonus point, really frustrating to be comfortable but only get 4 points. Respect to the Dragons and their fans.

Their four fans haha

Risca Rev wrote:Their four fans haha

Admit it, you're a wee bit proud of that!

Massive effort. One of them was a gobby get

Olding can play anywhere and he's class it seems, McCloskey is one big powerful unit will added subtle skills. That apart we missed a bonus point that anyone in the top six could have picked up. Underwhelmed is all I'm going to feel this season it seems. Still, a win's a win and we do tend to look a better team against tougher opposition.

Pete330v2 wrote:Olding can play anywhere and he's class it seems, McCloskey is one big powerful unit will added subtle skills. That apart we missed a bonus point that anyone in the top six could have picked up. Underwhelmed is all I'm going to feel this season it seems. Still, a win's a win and we do tend to look a better team against tougher opposition.

Thats why I wanted Dragons to give us a really hard time. In an ideal world, we'd be playing Toulon again right away. I just wanted as hard a game as possible. That said, we had so may players playing their first games in certain positions and so many changes and the weather was shoite. A lack of fluency? It happens.

Just watched the first minute on iPlayer. Just the first minute, mind you. The amount of ground we're allowed to make there in contact makes it look like a different sport to the Toulon game altogether.

Win or lose,I love the way we're trying to play this year. So open. Positive. Attacking. And very, very risky.

Notch wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Olding can play anywhere and he's class it seems, McCloskey is one big powerful unit will added subtle skills. That apart we missed a bonus point that anyone in the top six could have picked up. Underwhelmed is all I'm going to feel this season it seems. Still, a win's a win and we do tend to look a better team against tougher opposition.

Thats why I wanted Dragons to give us a really hard time. In an ideal world, we'd be playing Toulon again right away. I just wanted as hard a game as possible. That said, we had so may players playing their first games in certain positions and so many changes and the weather was shoite. A lack of fluency? It happens.

Just watched the first minute on iPlayer. Just the first minute, mind you. The amount of ground we're allowed to make there in contact makes it look like a different sport to the Toulon game altogether.

I was thinking that myself because at times we were so dominant in the collisions we were going right over the top, something that can sometimes get penalised just for being strong at the breakdown. We should be able to raise our game to the required level no matter the opposition. We should have played like we were playing Toulon last night but there just seemed a lack of commitment in the final half hour. We need these bonus points afterthe Zebre loss, we know too well how much difference they can make at the end of the season.

It's really hard to do that Pete. The number of games we have? Too many. It's not possible to peak for them all.

Very impressed by Reidy in attack and defence, plays with his head up.
Ross is a lump and prepared to put himself about without giving away penalties - also has leapfrogged McComish.
Great to see Nelson now has power! He will be a serious play in time.

Paul Marshall probably had his best game in an Ulster shirt. Finally, finally he starts to use his breaking game, and take advantage of his pace.

Stuart Olding had a great game at 15, but is at his most dangerous running through traffic so I'd still like to see a McCloskey 12, Olding 13 midfield.

On the down side I thought Jackson had a mediocre game - he is still missing too many from the tee and too fond of grubbing kicks through when a drop at goal would be a far better option.
Cave too showed why Ulster need a different first-choice 13 than him. A Test class Outside Centre shouldn't be getting outpaced by a lock, especially when that try could have been the difference in getting a TBP.

And we did have things that could have gone the other way and made things go differently. The ball that Cave was just beaten to. The foot rush that nearly ended in Diack scoring.

Lot of missed chances is always frustrating

The UAFC has kicked off, poor Paul Marshall getting a torrid time of it on there. There was me thinking he had a damn good game last night. They really don't like Ulster on that site.

I know we can't peak every game Notch but it looks like the players come out at times thinking the win and bonus point will fall into their laps, last night and the Zebre game being examples of that. Yet when we need to, we can play great rugby, the game against Glasgow being our only example this season. Oh and the second half against Leicester