Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

ME-109 wrote:Sin furious??? Doubt it. More pointing out the flaws in the arguments no? And the blatant hypocrisy.

Anyway for what it's worth from watching the highlights it looked to me as if Ulster were relatively unlucky in terms of the bounce of the ball. Not saying Toulon weren't the better side on the day but Ulster were just a couple of mistakes away from it being a more close run contest than is being suggested.

Rewatching it made me realise just that, we were not the better team but if we'd have had a few rubs of the green we may have come a lot closer and who knows, may even have taken the win.
It's also clear that it's time for project Payne to end. Not playing our best midfield and our best fullback in their correct positions is criminal enough in the Pro12 but in the Champs Cup it's unforgiveable IMO. When Jared moves to 15 he comes to life, his purpose in the rugby world is realised instead of being continually stifled at 13. Also how you leave out that McCloskey man to counter the physicality of Bastareaud is beyond me, I was certain he'd be utilised on saturday.

Still, all in all not a bad performance but absolutely nowhere near our best which is where we needed to be.

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Sin furious??? Doubt it. More pointing out the flaws in the arguments no? And the blatant hypocrisy.

Sin was constructively irritated by a series of unfortunate truths that coincided with the tenure of Head Coach Declan Kidney, who mentored but didn't coach, and the players should have had brains enough to be able to coach themselves if the coaches couldn't...but didn't.

Correct ME.  I revise my memory.  Sin was not furious - he was a robot, programmed to be a dispassionate observer and ultimate truth oracle.

Nope, I think there were huge flaws in the arguments that he was a poor coach. The reason why he wash't successful after winning the Grand Slam was because all his players needed to play rugby by numbers and he isn't that kind of coach. BOD thinks (from his book) that Eddie O'Sullivan and Joe Schmidt are great coaches. What have they got in common - they are both control freaks and do not believe in heads up rugby which would be Kidney's philosophy.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Sin furious??? Doubt it. More pointing out the flaws in the arguments no? And the blatant hypocrisy.

Sin was constructively irritated by a series of unfortunate truths that coincided with the tenure of Head Coach Declan Kidney, who mentored but didn't coach, and the players should have had brains enough to be able to coach themselves if the coaches couldn't...but didn't.

Correct ME.  I revise my memory.  Sin was not furious - he was a robot, programmed to be a dispassionate observer and ultimate truth oracle.

Nope, I think there were huge flaws in the arguments that he was a poor coach. The reason why he wash't successful after winning the Grand Slam was because all his players needed to play rugby by numbers and he isn't that kind of coach. BOD thinks (from his book) that Eddie O'Sullivan and Joe Schmidt are great coaches. What have they got in common - they are both control freaks and do not believe in heads up rugby which would be Kidney's philosophy.

We shouldn't get into it here, Sin....but the idea that Kidney was a 'good' coach because his 'philosophy' allowed and wanted players to think for themselves is a cop out.  Not a cop out for your argument, but a cop-out for any coach who would seek to be paid very well to put forward that philosophy.  "The less I do the more important I am"  The less the coach has to work, the more crucial he is to the set up?

Some Irish bankers seemed to like the approach. 'Pay me to screw you'.
.

Pete330v2 wrote:Notch you know sometimes people do grab the wrong end of the stick with you and you can come across as antogaonistic and condescending at times which is what I did and I do apologise if I did get the wrong end of the stick. Perhaps an overt use of emoticons is required, I don't know.

As for those who think Ulster are rubbish etc, what did you expect when there was a sudden influx of fans who have followed Ulster since the final at twickers and can't seem to remember anything about the team before that. They still pay for tickets and beer which is going into Ulster Rugby's pockets.

Even lifelong Ulster supporters get angry and frustrated at times and vent that on here and other forums. They usually are brought back down to earth again on here though whilst on the uafc it seems to be supported by all but a few. They therefore spend most of their time void of optimism and these days filled with loathing for Jared Payne.

It's okay Pete. I do get frustrated sometime. I don't try and be condescending, but I can be quite sharp when the passion overtakes me and I don't suffer fools- I could use some patience and understanding from time to time its true. I regret any offence or misunderstanding.

Notch wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Notch you know sometimes people do grab the wrong end of the stick with you and you can come across as antogaonistic and condescending at times which is what I did and I do apologise if I did get the wrong end of the stick. Perhaps an overt use of emoticons is required, I don't know.

As for those who think Ulster are rubbish etc, what did you expect when there was a sudden influx of fans who have followed Ulster since the final at twickers and can't seem to remember anything about the team before that. They still pay for tickets and beer which is going into Ulster Rugby's pockets.

Even lifelong Ulster supporters get angry and frustrated at times and vent that on here and other forums. They usually are brought back down to earth again on here though whilst on the uafc it seems to be supported by all but a few. They therefore spend most of their time void of optimism and these days filled with loathing for Jared Payne.

It's okay Pete. I do get frustrated sometime. I don't try and be condescending, but I can be quite sharp when the passion overtakes me and I don't suffer fools- I could use some patience and understanding from time to time its true. I regret any offence or misunderstanding.

Anger and frustration comes out in the very best of people too you know, sure wasn't Gandhi a wife beater

Can I put my clothes back on now? This air conditioning is playing havoc with the family jewels.

George Carlin wrote:Can I put my clothes back on now? This air conditioning is playing havoc with the family jewels.

Keep em off George, we're havin a love-in

I feel this team misses an abrasive dynamic 8 like Pedrie Wannerburg, he fitted our game plan perfectly, he would make the big hits, he would carry ball (in two hands..... Ahem looking at you big nick) he would put everything he had into a match and it really spurred on the rest of our back row, Steve ferris always played blinders with pedrie at 8, I know stevie often played blinders but I think some of his best in an ulster jersy where with him. Never mind the team missing Pedrie, I kinda miss him too, he never writes, never calls........ Anyway, I really like Nick, he is a wonderful mix of the sublime and the utterly awful which is why teams worry about him, Roger is technically very good but he is getting on in years and is showing, his defence is rock solid but the flashy stuff is starting to leave his game, and when our 7 is one if the best about in the breakdown he is more likely to be fiddling with balls at the bottom of a ruck rather than getting ready to do something fancy in the attacking line. So we then have two backrows who we are forcing to carry a lot of ball, Diack is a machine and has to be one of our best players so far this season but we need an 8 who can spot a gap or draw defenders more effectively.

I don't comment on these things very much, but I like to read other opinions etc, but this site has got very hostile over the last couple of months, it's becoming quite unpleasant. Just thought I would pass that on.

Ah come on now BDV, what would this place be without the odd bit of in-fighting. At least we're not like t'other forum where they all get along very well, unanimous in how much they dislike Ulster

Speaking of Ulster I see Raaymaker is available for the Dragons match but St Ruan has been included in the South Africa squad so he'll be getting match fit with the Saffers during the break and will be rarin' to go against those O's when the Pro12 resumes........see, optimism.

Wannenburg wasn't a massive ball carrier but what he did was always present clean ball. Terrific player for us. Wouldn't address our lack of carriers though.

Any ideas where Pedrie is now?

I guess we are going to have to get used to not having Pienaar for a little longer as he's been named in the South Africa squad for the Autumn internationals. Here's a question though when Pienaar eventually leaves Ulster do we really have anyone to replace him at 9? Yes Marshall's there but he is shall we say Inconsistent and Heaney at the minute isn't getting much gametime. If we do have someone we see as his successor they really need to be getting gametime soon.

Standulstermen wrote:Wannenburg wasn't a massive ball carrier but what he did was always present clean ball. Terrific player for us. Wouldn't address our lack of carriers though.

Any ideas where Pedrie is now?

Yeah he is in the Top 14 Stand playing for a team, Oyonax or something you call them, moved there in the summer from Castre

Pedrie may not have carried a lot of ball but his discussion making when wether to take the ball into contact or distribute it on was excellent and facilitated the option for others to spread it wide or have a more effective crash ball. He had good "link man" qualities.

BelfastDickVet wrote:Pedrie may not have carried a lot of ball but his discussion making when wether to take the ball into contact or distribute it on was excellent and facilitated the option for others to spread it wide or have a more effective crash ball. He had good "link man" qualities.

Nick Williams is a good Pro12 player, but he isn't a top class number 8 who can mix it in Europe.

BelfastDickVet wrote:Pedrie may not have carried a lot of ball but his discussion making when wether to take the ball into contact or distribute it on was excellent and facilitated the option for others to spread it wide or have a more effective crash ball. He had good "link man" qualities.

Absolutely. Excellent in that regard. He has been missed, just not from a ball carrying perspective

I see Romain Taofifenua has been cited for that stray boot into Oldings head.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29806558?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

It says the citing commissioner made the complaint, I'd be really and truly disappointed if it was someone from Ulster. Thought it was an accident. Hope Olding is ok, but really think the Toulon lock has no case to answer here!

It looked like an accident, but if Payne accidentally taking out a man in the air is deemed red, as the player landed head first, then so should accidentally kicking a player on the head.

At the time I thought maybe a yellow. I wasn't angered that no action was taken, but it did seem inconsistent. It was an accident, however, it was still dangerous/reckless, and on par with taking a man out in the air. To my mind anyway...

Munchkin wrote:It looked like an accident, but if Payne accidentally taking out a man in the air is deemed red, as the player landed head first, then so should accidentally kicking a player on the head.

At the time I thought maybe a yellow. I wasn't angered that no action was taken, but it did seem inconsistent. It was an accident, however, it was still dangerous/reckless, and on par with taking a man out in the air. To my mind anyway...

I have no doubt it's accidental but it doesn't matter. Intent is irrelevant

Munchkin wrote:It looked like an accident, but if Payne accidentally taking out a man in the air is deemed red, as the player landed head first, then so should accidentally kicking a player on the head.

At the time I thought maybe a yellow. I wasn't angered that no action was taken, but it did seem inconsistent. It was an accident, however, it was still dangerous/reckless, and on par with taking a man out in the air. To my mind anyway...

Thats the thing though- if you agree that Payne accidentally causing a man to be taken out in the air is punished harshly as a red card, how can you argue kicking a man in the head accidentally merits a citing?

If citings are only given out for red card offences, I'd argue neither should be red. In fact I'd argue the maximum sanction that should ever be issued for recklessness without intent is a yellow card.

Intent to harm the other player? No argument. Throw the rule book at them- hard. No intent? Yellow. Not sure whether there was intent or not, borderline case? Yellow and let the citing commission work it out. It could be that simple.

You're right, intent doesn't matter under the current rules. And that to me is why the system is such a joke and a mess. I'll be really disappointed if yer man gets punished for this. It's ridiculous.

Standulstermen wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It looked like an accident, but if Payne accidentally taking out a man in the air is deemed red, as the player landed head first, then so should accidentally kicking a player on the head.

At the time I thought maybe a yellow. I wasn't angered that no action was taken, but it did seem inconsistent. It was an accident, however, it was still dangerous/reckless, and on par with taking a man out in the air. To my mind anyway...

I have no doubt it's accidental but it doesn't matter. Intent is irrelevant

I agree, Stand, although some ref's do judge intent, some don't. Another point of inconsistency.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It looked like an accident, but if Payne accidentally taking out a man in the air is deemed red, as the player landed head first, then so should accidentally kicking a player on the head.

At the time I thought maybe a yellow. I wasn't angered that no action was taken, but it did seem inconsistent. It was an accident, however, it was still dangerous/reckless, and on par with taking a man out in the air. To my mind anyway...

Thats the thing though- if you agree that Payne accidentally causing a man to be taken out in the air is punished harshly as a red card, how can you argue kicking a man in the head accidentally merits a citing?

If citings are only given out for red card offences, I'd argue neither should be red. In fact I'd argue the maximum sanction that should ever be issued for recklessness without intent is a yellow card.

Intent to harm the other player? No argument. Throw the rule book at them- hard. No intent? Yellow. Not sure whether there was intent or not, borderline case? Yellow and let the citing commission work it out. It could be that simple.

You're right, intent doesn't matter under the current rules. And that to me is why the system is such a joke and a mess. I'll be really disappointed if yer man gets punished for this. It's ridiculous.

Until they decide to change the rules I'm all for them getting cited. The IRB made a rod for their back when they came out and backed Garces over the Payne incident. If enough of these things happen maybe they will re look at the nonsense they have hitherto come out with

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It looked like an accident, but if Payne accidentally taking out a man in the air is deemed red, as the player landed head first, then so should accidentally kicking a player on the head.

At the time I thought maybe a yellow. I wasn't angered that no action was taken, but it did seem inconsistent. It was an accident, however, it was still dangerous/reckless, and on par with taking a man out in the air. To my mind anyway...

Thats the thing though- if you agree that Payne accidentally causing a man to be taken out in the air is punished harshly as a red card, how can you argue kicking a man in the head accidentally merits a citing?

If citings are only given out for red card offences, I'd argue neither should be red. In fact I'd argue the maximum sanction that should ever be issued for recklessness without intent is a yellow card.

Intent to harm the other player? No argument. Throw the rule book at them- hard. No intent? Yellow. Not sure whether there was intent or not, borderline case? Yellow and let the citing commission work it out.

You're right, intent doesn't matter under the current rules. And that to me is why the system is such a joke and a mess. I'll be really disappointed if yer man gets punished for this. It's ridiculous.

If it happened prior to the new directive which merited Payne's red card, then I wouldn't have much of an argument, but my argument is based on that new directive, the following Payne red card, and how it relates to this incident.

I agree with most of your comment. Intent really should be a factor, and the action taken should be as you described - Red - Yellow - Yellow with citing pending, but until that happens players really needs to be judged using the same criteria as that used in judging Payne. Otherwise the citing commission becomes even more farcical than it already is.

I see where you guys are coming from, but I can't accept saying because the laws got it 'wrong' once they should continue to get it 'wrong' in every instance.

There are two things here; what the laws say and what I believe is right. I can't say because Jared Payne and Ulster got a punishment which I perceive as unfair, the same thing should happen to other teams. When it happened to us it was wrong, in my opinion, and it's wrong every time it happens whoever the player is and whoever the team is. Therefore if it is always a small victory if common sense prevails in any case regardless of what may happen in other cases!

I'm sorry to see this being cited as it was clearly unintentional. Of course it has similarities to the Payne case in being a complete accident and if the citing panel can't see it that way then I simply despair. If recklessness is to be punished then every tackle will require a citing
Player welfare is incredibly important but good god, at this rate the health and safety guys will show up will end rugby forever.

Notch wrote:I see where you guys are coming from, but I can't accept saying because the laws got it 'wrong' once they should continue to get it 'wrong' in every instance.

There are two things here; what the laws say and what I believe is right. I can't say because Jared Payne and Ulster got a punishment which I perceive as unfair, the same thing should happen to other teams. When it happened to us it was wrong, in my opinion, and it's wrong every time it happens whoever the player is and whoever the team is. Therefore if it is always a small victory if common sense prevails in any case regardless of what may happen in other cases!

For me it's as much about consistency in applying the law, as it is about fairness. In fact without that consistency then the application of the law can never be truly fair. One team gets a straight red, another has no more than a penalty awarded against them. In a certain context it might seem fair, and reasonable, that one team has no more than a penalty awarded against them, but within the wider context it is an unfair advantage over their competitors who are not so fortunate.

I'm not saying that because Payne was unfairly red carded I want all players unfairly red carded. None, or few, of us would have had an issue with Payne getting a yellow card at the time. Red was harsh, but the citing commission didn't agree:


Judicial Officer Simon Thomas (Wales) determined that Payne had committed a reckless act and concluded that the offence was at the low end of the IRB sanctions for offences of this nature and selected three weeks as the appropriate entry point.

As there were no aggravating factors, and taking into account the player's clean disciplinary record and his exemplary conduct at the hearing, the Judicial Officer reduced the sanction by the maximum of one (1) week and imposed a suspension of two (2) weeks. "


If they agree that Payne's accidental collision was a reckless act, and one deserving of a red card, then they must also agree that a player accidentally kicking an opponent on the head is also a reckless act, and one deserving of a red card. This is at a time when concussion is very much a hot topic, and also, as I understand it, one of the reasons for the directive sent out to officials just prior to the Payne red card.

If they are going to make these judgments, then they must be consistent in applying them. At least then coaches and players will then know where the stand with regards to the law.

Munchkin wrote:It looked like an accident, but if Payne accidentally taking out a man in the air is deemed red, as the player landed head first, then so should accidentally kicking a player on the head.

At the time I thought maybe a yellow. I wasn't angered that no action was taken, but it did seem inconsistent. It was an accident, however, it was still dangerous/reckless, and on par with taking a man out in the air. To my mind anyway...

SCRAM

if you dont know the finer points of the technicalities, then i refer you to my earlier instruction.

the point is a far bigger one that your petty scoring.

is fly hacking legal?

i would happily see it banned as its a 90% tactic of POC, ireland and celtic sides attempting to disrupt the breakdown.

so definitely, give the sarries player a ban and set the precedent that flyhacking, if contact is made with another player, will be penalized.

oh so you're talking to me now. What happened? Me telling you to scram so got to you that you just had to respond, one way or another....

Anyway, now that you're talking. Please explain my 'petty point scoring'?

Knowing your comprehension skills you probably have the wrong end of the stick....

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It looked like an accident, but if Payne accidentally taking out a man in the air is deemed red, as the player landed head first, then so should accidentally kicking a player on the head.

At the time I thought maybe a yellow. I wasn't angered that no action was taken, but it did seem inconsistent. It was an accident, however, it was still dangerous/reckless, and on par with taking a man out in the air. To my mind anyway...

SCRAM

if you dont know the finer points of the technicalities, then i refer you to my earlier instruction.

the point is a far bigger one that your petty scoring.

is fly hacking legal?

i would happily see it banned as its a 90% tactic of POC, ireland and celtic sides attempting to disrupt the breakdown.

so definitely, give the sarries player a ban and set the precedent that flyhacking, if contact is made with another player, will be penalized.

It's a Toulon player not a Sarries player!

And no, flyhacking should not be made illegal. If we made everything that could cause injury in rugby illegal, we would literally not have the game of rugby at all. We would be playing touch rugby!

Ah now Notch hang on you could possibly injure someone with long nails in touch rugby mate so better make that illegal too
The IRB in fairness made a directive and whether we think it is right or wrong they are determined to stick by it despite it's lack of sense this is just another case that makes a mockery of it.

I think when there is a 50/50 ball in the air, there is an implicit risk that a player might mistime his jump and accidentally upend another player entirely innocently. I think when there is a loose ball on the ground there is an implicit risk that you might mistime your flyhack and make contact with another player. I think when you are trying to tackle another player at chest height there is a risk that if that player is ducking into the tackle and you are running at full pelt you may make contact higher than intended, possibly above the shoulders.

Now all these things are penalty offences for me. But its getting to the point where in all of the above examples you can get banned for two weeks, three weeks. Rugby is a dangerous game and it's even more dangerous when played recklessly. There needs to be rules in place to protect players and those rules need to be enforced. But lets call a spade a spade; an accident on the pitch is an accident. I've seen people make the argument that if there's a collision between cars you can be held to be criminally negligent for driving recklessly. But applying that logic to rugby, is like trying to apply those traffic laws to a demolition derby where the cars are actively engaged in smashing into each other. Thats whats happening on the rugby pitch, its codified of course, but the nature of rugby means these kind of accidents can and will keep happening and citings and bannings can not reduce their likelihood. They are part of the game.

I think these things can happen to any player with even the cleanest record and the best will in the world- you can either be on the receiving end of them or the player in the wrong, completely innocently and unpredictably. Most players will probably be on both sides of it at different times in their career.

What I despise most is not the disciplinary process, but the culture of fans screaming blue murder to get players cited and get players banned in the aftermath of incidents like this so-called 'kick' on Stuarty Olding. It really disgusts me when I see rugby fans act this way. You saw it with Alan O'Connor against Glasgow and Jared Payne against Saracens from an Ulster point of view, but you also saw it with Leinster fans after O'Connell accidentally kicked Dave Kearney in the head when trying to flyback the ball and countless other times in response to countless other incidents. It transcends nationality. What some fans tend to do is when a player of the team they support is on the receiving end of an accident, they demonise the opposition player responsible and automatically think the worst of them. They demand citings and investigations. It could all be settled with a handshake and the understanding that the player accidentally hurt during play could just as easily next week, through no fault of their own, be the player who accidentally hurts another player while attempting to compete for the ball fairly and within the rules of the game. That mistakes are made in the heat of battle and its unfortunate and unavoidable.

Whilst I understand being protective of your own players, I think people who play and watch rugby really should be above that sort of attitude, that demonisation and finger pointing. It's so disappointing to me that fans or even coaches and staff at clubs would go out and ask for players to be cited over incidents like this regardless of the outcome. It really makes my blood boil to see that attitude, I hate it.

To finish, here is an extract of an interview with Paul O'Connell that illustrates perfectly why I think citing and punishing things like this is a farce and is wrong. PK is Paul Kimmage, rugby journalist, POC is, well, POC.

PK: What about the Dave Kearney incident?

(Last April, during Munster's Pro12 clash with Leinster, O'Connell was scrambling to clear a ball with his boot when he caught Kearney in the head and left him concussed.)

POC: Look, I probably misjudged it and assumed that everyone, without a shadow of a doubt, would assume it was 100 per cent accidental.

PK: There was a lot of niggle in that game.

POC: You are not going to play your closest rivals and not have a bit of niggle but that incident wasn't niggle.

PK: Did you watch it afterwards?

POC: Yeah, and it looked worse than I'd remembered it. I knew straight away that I'd caught him but I didn't realise I'd knocked him out. He was out (of action) for a while. I kept looking for his name on the Leinster teamsheet but it didn't crop up for weeks, which was obviously very frustrating for him.

PK: Joe Schmidt felt you should have been cited.

POC: Yeah, and I had close friends who felt I should have been cited as well, or that it should have been looked at, and I respect their opinion. But my point of view is this: the argument is that a punishment would stop you doing it again but how does a punishment stop you from doing something that was 100 per cent accidental?

I have to agree with O'Connell on this one really.

Here's my predicted team for Saturday. None of the Ireland players are available as they are in camp with the national side preparing for the South Africa game. I'm not sure what the injury status of Michael Allen and Rory Scholes is. They might be out injured, hence their absence from the Ravens, which would leave the cupboards bare with Gilroy and Bowe away and Trimble injured too.

1. Andrew Warwick
2. Rob Herring
3. Declan Fitzpatrick
4. Lewis Stevenson
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Roger Wilson (c)
7. Clive Ross
8. Nick Williams
9. Paul Marshall
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Michael Allen/Ross Adair
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Darren Cave
14. Rory Scholes/Jacob Stockdale
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew
17. Callum Black/Ruaidhri Murphy/Dave Ryan
18. Wiehahn Herbst/Bronson Ross
19. Neil McComb
20. Sean Reidy/Charlie Butterworth
21. Michael Heaney
22. Ian Humphreys
23. AN Other from Peter Nelson, Ross Adair, Jacob Stockdale, Ricky Andrew, Jack Owens

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/ulster-rugbys-euro-fail-was-painful-but-predictable-amateur-display-against-leicester-set-tone-and-paved-way-for-limp-exit-30701352.html

I think an Ulsterman once stole George Hooks girl because I don't know how to explain this contradiction ridden ramble

Some of his points are ok in that the performance against Leicester was unacceptable (although he seemingly doesn't know who they had/didn't have available)

The Toulon game I'm not sure any of our provinces would have gotten closer.

Standulstermen wrote:Some of his points are ok in that the performance against Leicester was unacceptable (although he seemingly doesn't know who they had/didn't have available)

The Toulon game I'm not sure any of our provinces would have gotten closer.

He starts out saying that Ulster should have beaten Leicester because of their injury list then finishes by saying Ulster have been hit hard by injuries.

The criticism of Jackson is harsh considering he's pretty much still in his preseason.

The losses he says Ulster had to endure over the summer show how little he watches Ulster, Ferris has been out for 2 years, Paddy Wallace missed most of last season, Afoa spent more time on a plane than in an Ulster shirt last season and Tom Court wasn't a regular starter as he used to be though why Hook mentions him when he usually states how rubbish he is is a mystery and all those who have come in seem to have offered something.

You know what gets me is that contact with a player in the air is always treated like it was an intentional act to injure a player it seems. Yes the Payne incident was an accident that ended up injured a player and had a serious outcome which swayed the ref's decision at the time. However just look at the game against Leicester two weeks back. Bowe makes contact with the Leicester player in the air (Scully was it?) and is penalised. Watched back again and Bowe is racing onto the ball in an attempt, reckless as it may seem, to gain possession for Ulster. Bowe is a at full pelt and it's as Bowe is perhaps 2 running paces away the Leicester player takes to the air giving Leicester an automatic penalty. It's cases like that I'd like ref's to officiate in context with the actual event instead of ticking that particular penalising box. All I'm saying is there are many times where blame cannot be allotted to any particular player.

Notch wrote:Here's my predicted team for Saturday. None of the Ireland players are available as they are in camp with the national side preparing for the South Africa game. I'm not sure what the injury status of Michael Allen and Rory Scholes is. They might be out injured, hence their absence from the Ravens, which would leave the cupboards bare with Gilroy and Bowe away and Trimble injured too.

1. Andrew Warwick
2. Rob Herring
3. Declan Fitzpatrick
4. Lewis Stevenson
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Roger Wilson (c)
7. Clive Ross
8. Nick Williams
9. Paul Marshall
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Michael Allen/Ross Adair
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Darren Cave
14. Rory Scholes/Jacob Stockdale
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew
17. Callum Black/Ruaidhri Murphy/Dave Ryan
18. Wiehahn Herbst/Bronson Ross
19. Neil McComb
20. Sean Reidy/Charlie Butterworth
21. Michael Heaney
22. Ian Humphreys
23. AN Other from Peter Nelson, Ross Adair, Jacob Stockdale, Ricky Andrew, Jack Owens

Notch is O'Connor's (from now on to be known as the Ravenhill Strangler) ban not over?
Can Ludik cover wing? I believe he has done in the past and it would leave the 15 shirt open for Nelson/Andrew.

Pete330v2 wrote:You know what gets me is that contact with a player in the air is always treated like it was an intentional act to injure a player it seems. Yes the Payne incident was an accident that ended up injured a player and had a serious outcome which swayed the ref's decision at the time. However just look at the game against Leicester two weeks back. Bowe makes contact with the Leicester player in the air (Scully was it?) and is penalised. Watched back again and Bowe is racing onto the ball in an attempt, reckless as it may seem, to gain possession for Ulster. Bowe is a at full pelt and it's as Bowe is perhaps 2 running paces away the Leicester player takes to the air giving Leicester an automatic penalty. It's cases like that I'd like ref's to officiate in context with the actual event instead of ticking that particular penalising box. All I'm saying is there are many times where blame cannot be allotted to any particular player.

The problem is though Pete they are bound by the rules, it was Benjamin who was tackled by both Bowe and Gilroy and went up late both times, though in Gilroys case he was reckless going in head down and over committing himself to the tackle.

I'm sure more than one person on here post-Payne stated that it would happen and seems to be the case

Standulstermen wrote:Some of his points are ok in that the performance against Leicester was unacceptable (although he seemingly doesn't know who they had/didn't have available)

The Toulon game I'm not sure any of our provinces would have gotten closer.

yerra I'd say we would have a crack at them at home in Thomond.

Toulon are the new Clermont who were the new Leinster.

Each of those sides had an 'invincibility' clause written into their publicity contracts.  Leinster were beatable, Clermont never won and Toulon will be beaten.

The bloody white flag attitude is the first thing to overcome.  It's not an Irish mindset to say "we're not good enough".  We know we're not good enough and that's all the more reason to have a bloody good shot with all you got.  Some of these 'invincible' sides thrive on the confidence of the opponent's fear (All Blacks an International version).  Show them you have little respect for their reputations and then you at least have a chance. Toulon will be beaten one day..why not by an Irish Province?

Notch wrote:Here's my predicted team for Saturday. None of the Ireland players are available as they are in camp with the national side preparing for the South Africa game. I'm not sure what the injury status of Michael Allen and Rory Scholes is. They might be out injured, hence their absence from the Ravens, which would leave the cupboards bare with Gilroy and Bowe away and Trimble injured too.

1. Andrew Warwick
2. Rob Herring
3. Declan Fitzpatrick
4. Lewis Stevenson
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Roger Wilson (c)
7. Clive Ross
8. Nick Williams
9. Paul Marshall
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Michael Allen/Ross Adair
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Darren Cave
14. Rory Scholes/Jacob Stockdale
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew
17. Callum Black/Ruaidhri Murphy/Dave Ryan
18. Wiehahn Herbst/Bronson Ross
19. Neil McComb
20. Sean Reidy/Charlie Butterworth
21. Michael Heaney
22. Ian Humphreys
23. AN Other from Peter Nelson, Ross Adair, Jacob Stockdale, Ricky Andrew, Jack Owens

You will lose.

I hate seeing Nick Williams in a team against us. He always seems to enjoy playing us, the git. Ulster by 10.

Interesting article by Quinlan you Ulster lads might be interested in.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ulster-paying-the-price-for-making-a-mess-of-its-coaching-situation-1.1979769

marty2086 wrote:http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/ulster-rugbys-euro-fail-was-painful-but-predictable-amateur-display-against-leicester-set-tone-and-paved-way-for-limp-exit-30701352.html

I think an Ulsterman once stole George Hooks girl because I don't know how to explain this contradiction ridden ramble

Old George is never shy in saying what he believes, even if he does get it wrong on occasions. Some of what he says is right. Leicester were there for the taking, but our first half performance was a shambles, and so we lost.

George is being unfair on Jackson. It's stating the obvious that Jackson works better with Pienaar than he does with Marshall, but it's equally true that Pienaar works better with Jackson than he does with Marshall.

He makes an interesting point about Payne playing at centre. Although he may believe Schmidt's claim, he seems to think that IRFU may still have a hand in Payne playing 13 for Ulster.

Even though he does gets things wrong, I've really grown quite fond of old George. Not sure how that happened

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:You know what gets me is that contact with a player in the air is always treated like it was an intentional act to injure a player it seems. Yes the Payne incident was an accident that ended up injured a player and had a serious outcome which swayed the ref's decision at the time. However just look at the game against Leicester two weeks back. Bowe makes contact with the Leicester player in the air (Scully was it?) and is penalised. Watched back again and Bowe is racing onto the ball in an attempt, reckless as it may seem, to gain possession for Ulster. Bowe is a at full pelt and it's as Bowe is perhaps 2 running paces away the Leicester player takes to the air giving Leicester an automatic penalty. It's cases like that I'd like ref's to officiate in context with the actual event instead of ticking that particular penalising box. All I'm saying is there are many times where blame cannot be allotted to any particular player.

The problem is though Pete they are bound by the rules, it was Benjamin who was tackled by both Bowe and Gilroy and went up late both times, though in Gilroys case he was reckless going in head down and over committing himself to the tackle.

I'm sure more than one person on here post-Payne stated that it would happen and seems to be the case

Yep, every time I see it happen I do remember a number of us on here saying it would become part of the game and I'm afraid it has.
Yes indeed, Benjamin it was and both times IMO knew exactly what he was doing. In the Gilroy case young Craig was called stupid a number of times but if you watch it again he was clearly unsighted and went blind for the tackle.
I just think refs need to use their heads in these cases and realise it's not always the man on the ground who's at fault.....if you know what I mean.

ME-109 wrote:Interesting article by Quinlan you Ulster lads might be interested in.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ulster-paying-the-price-for-making-a-mess-of-its-coaching-situation-1.1979769

You can't argue with Mr Quinlan there, it's the simple truth. I was never 100% happy with what I was hearing about Anscombe from inside the camp but I did think it was a bad move to chuck him out on his backside. Leave him in post for one final season while preparing and scouting for a successor instead of opting for the unstable few months we've had. I hope Doaky proves me wrong but I can't see him raising our game much higher although who knows what happens once things stabalise a little.

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:You know what gets me is that contact with a player in the air is always treated like it was an intentional act to injure a player it seems. Yes the Payne incident was an accident that ended up injured a player and had a serious outcome which swayed the ref's decision at the time. However just look at the game against Leicester two weeks back. Bowe makes contact with the Leicester player in the air (Scully was it?) and is penalised. Watched back again and Bowe is racing onto the ball in an attempt, reckless as it may seem, to gain possession for Ulster. Bowe is a at full pelt and it's as Bowe is perhaps 2 running paces away the Leicester player takes to the air giving Leicester an automatic penalty. It's cases like that I'd like ref's to officiate in context with the actual event instead of ticking that particular penalising box. All I'm saying is there are many times where blame cannot be allotted to any particular player.

The problem is though Pete they are bound by the rules, it was Benjamin who was tackled by both Bowe and Gilroy and went up late both times, though in Gilroys case he was reckless going in head down and over committing himself to the tackle.

I'm sure more than one person on here post-Payne stated that it would happen and seems to be the case

Yep, every time I see it happen I do remember a number of us on here saying it would become part of the game and I'm afraid it has.
Yes indeed, Benjamin it was and both times IMO knew exactly what he was doing. In the Gilroy case young Craig was called stupid a number of times but if you watch it again he was clearly unsighted and went blind for the tackle.
I just think refs need to use their heads in these cases and realise it's not always the man on the ground who's at fault.....if you know what I mean.

You do know that Benjamin has missed a lot of rugby due to broken vertebra in his neck? It may be that he did 'know what he was doing' but of all the players out there he has more reason than most to understand the consequences of things going wrong

Supposing that Benjamin was trying to get players carded by jumping late, how does that help him?

Munchkin wrote:Supposing that Benjamin was trying to get players carded by jumping late, how does that help him?

Its supposing that he has more reasons than most to look to avoid a situation where he might end up landing on his neck. Its supposing that if he was trying to get someone carded he is either stupid or suicidally brave. I cant tell you what he was doing, I havent seen the incident(s), but it is a fact (FACT) that he has had a broken neck before

It's unfortunate that he has had a broken neck, of course, but what has that got to do with him playing now? He must be fully recovered now, otherwise he shouldn't be on the field (FACT).

How can he be looking to avoid a dangerous situation if he is creating one by fooling opponents to clatter into him by jumping late?

Now before you get any more wound up, I'm not claiming this was his intention, I would need to look at the replays, I'm just following on from your own reasoning as to why he would do such a thing if that was his intention.

Only got around to watching the game. Ulster were outgunned at the breakdown, simple as that. Toulon actually did nothing of note in terms of playing good rugby, apart from their first try which was very good.

Ulsters backline actually played some good rugby especially near the end when Payne moved to 15. They also had plenty of chances to punish Toulon but once again things went wrong near the Toulon line.

What I didn't understand when I saw the team announced was the dropping of McCloskey. Bastareaud is a monster sized center and Olding is a small center so naturally the bulk of Bastareaud made easy yardage against Olding. Mermoz too looked comfortable out there.

One thing that annoyed me was Wayne Barnes calling back Paul Marshall when he took quick taps. Once it looked like he would have scored a try! If they want to speed the game up then they must allow players to take quick taps and it should be up to the players and not whether the referees need a break. Barnes gave Ulster a few soft decisions too to balance things up.

With the Bowe penalty he did take a while to find the flight of the ball and Bowe was about a half second from tackling him when he jumped