Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

by **Notch** Mon 14 Jul - 15:20

First topic message reminder :

Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

by **rodders** Wed 17 Dec - 9:26

Read Stevie Ferris comments last night and to be honest I think he's spot on.

If the provinces are to be competitive at this level, in the near future, then they need to go up a few notches with the recruitment. The quality of the coaching and overseas signings across all the provinces - bar Connacht - has been fairly mediocre in the past season or so.

This is against a backdrop of huge spending in many of the top French and English sides so its not a surprise to see us coming up short. The two big stand out differences between the haves and have nots in the RCC so far are the size of the packs and the quality on the bench.

That said, as Ferris pointed out, the upside is the benefit for Ireland with more IQ players getting gametime.

In a RWC year especially its hard to gripe that this shouldn't be the priority, or priority generally, but there needs to be balance too in the longer term and as Geoff has illustrated our academy just isn't producing enough quality in certain positions.

For me if we are restricted to 4/5 NIEs then they have to be top quality and I don't think this is the case lately.

Is this because the IRFU are tightening the belts for this or is it just the salaries available elsewhere making it hard to attract top players, or both? Probably the latter and if so then we need to get used to it I'm afraid.

by Pete330v2 Wed 17 Dec - 10:10

Balance is key Rodders and I really don't think the IRFU has struck a decent balance.
The money is available to attract the marquee signings but the salary cap is always going to be constricting. Instead of the number one choices we're having to look further down the list. What a top quality player brings to the club cannot be underestimated but it seems the IRFU disagree. Fewer NIQ spots combined with those spots being filled by 'also rans' will be a punch in the stomach for the provinces. Think of the effect Muller had on those around him, not just the shoe-in squad members but the emerging lads like Henderson, O'Connor etc.
Maybe my pessimism leads my thoughts on the issue but I don't see these plans benefiting us at club or national level.

by Standulstermen Wed 17 Dec - 10:25

If we are looking at 3+ a project then I agree. The three in question should be top drawer but they also have to augment. It's a balancing act and in fairness I think ulster have got it spot on for a number of years. We are rueing a couple of mistakes lately though.

The irfu have to judge between the benefit and needs of the province from the potential signing and balance that against the needs of the national team and if said signing will be detrimental.

I would argue they have got it wrong at ulster as they have created a logjam at centre on the basis that one guy can step up for the RWC.

I still believe at ulster the coaching changes are the biggest issue

by **rodders** Wed 17 Dec - 10:27

Pete330v2 wrote:Balance is key Rodders and I really don't think the IRFU has struck a decent balance.
The money is available to attract the marquee signings but the salary cap is always going to be constricting.

Is it really though Pete? I think its a slippery slope into soccerball territory to think we can get into bidding wars with the French and English clubs for players and coaches.

The last financial statement from the IRFU indicated finances weren't great and you also have a bigger slice of the pie going on retaining the top Irish players. Obviously Ulster seem to be doing well in the business side of things but not convinced we can match the likes of Toulon, Sarries, Bath, Clermont etc in wages or that we should even try.

by Standulstermen Wed 17 Dec - 10:54

Not every NIQ signing involves a bidding war Rodders. Did Pienaar? Did Howlett? Did Nacewa? If we can identify the right type (and caliber) of player and sell them the province then a good wage will do it. In some senses we aren't competing with the French but rather with what the players are earning in NZ/SA/Oz

by SecretFly Wed 17 Dec - 11:35

How many TOP foreign players (who don't need anything other than a playing field to make them start repaying the purchase price) can any of the Provinces really afford?

One? Two at most? Sexton needed a Sugar Daddy to bring him home to Leinster! He wanted to come home but he still wasn't prepared to do it for a price lower than he felt he was worth.

So I don't believe in this idea that Provinces just need a good two or three super-signings (beating competitive bidding from England and France!) to make things all right again.

No - what Provinces constantly need is great coaching. That's the bit we can't afford to miss out on. And it's kinda happening right now in some places. Coaching isn't good enough.
You can talk as much as you like about having to face the challenge of big and powerful foreign packs or the slick and evasive backs of these super sides............... but that has always been the case. That was always the hurdle to cross when Irish Provinces fought in Europe. When Leinster were winning, they weren't considered the Best universally - nope, Clermont still had the considered superstars. People couldn't work out how such a team that had everything by the bucket load could still struggle in HEC and be beaten by a team like Leinster.... who were always considered good but concealed a lot of weaknesses and hadn't the kind of box-office stars other sides did.

How were the weaknesses concealed? How are Ireland's weaknesses concealed so far too? Very good coaching that does its homework on the opposition, that is clinical in drills and commands, that is exacting in the standards of attention and concentration levels demanded of players; and most importantly of all, doesn't make excuses for players injured but coaches/teaches the younger guys to fill the places with confidence.

Coaching beats high-five signings every time. I said a few months back that the new European environment won't be just pressurised in trying to keep or buy best players.... the pressure will quickly extend to best coaches. They too will come under the influence of increasing salary expectations - who can pay them and who can't. And we've already seen the results of that when Clermont pushed Munster aside twice and seemed to second guess everything the did.... courtesy of a shining-light ex-Leinster coach. And of course Ulster themselves had a taste of a backroom man being lured away to more lucrative territory.

We can't afford to fixate on 'stuffing' our Provinces with super players - we'll simply never be able to outbid the big guys for enough of them. But we better do our serious homework each time we choose a new coach. They have to be intense, they have to be able to do the homework that modern coaching requires (those time consuming video Monday mornings of detail, detail, detail!) and they have to possess the genuine skills to 'teach' high standard rugby to juniors rather than just casually overseeing seniors who already know most of it.
If a coach can't teach then he's a waste of space, especially the Head guy. If a Head Coach frowns on the teaching part and always wants senior guys who don't need child-minding duties then they're a waste of space. We need coaches who are passionate about their role as coach, not just guys who like to walk around a training field with a whistle and collecting their salaries.

by LordDowlais Wed 17 Dec - 11:54

SecretFly wrote:Coaching isn't good enough.

Welcome to Wales boyo.

by SecretFly Wed 17 Dec - 12:04

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Coaching isn't good enough.

Welcome to Wales boyo.

You have Gats. Clone him Wink

You've certainly had him long enough and he's certainly been in the mood often enough to extract the necessary spittle. Wink

by Pete330v2 Wed 17 Dec - 16:06

I don't think we'll ever go the way of soccer, we've seen what it has done to ruin that sport and simply can never allow it to happen. Bidding and outbidding for top players could only ever push us in that direction though.
I mean look at the lack of bidding there was for Pienaar who apparently asked about coming to Ulster and when the cash monkeys started waving cheques in his face he stayed with us. Rory Best too had fat cheques offered and said no thanks, I'll be staying right here.

Those who cried like infants and almost ended the european cup concept entirely because they wanted a level playing field are the ones who have the playing field leaning massively in their favour. The Anglo/French conspiracy has ensured that the disparity between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' isn't going to be dealt with any time soon and will only widen.
The only way forward is a blanket salary cap across the board but unfortunately big cheques and deep pockets will always stand in the way of fairness for all.

by The Great Aukster Wed 17 Dec - 16:18

Pete330v2 wrote:I mean look at the lack of bidding there was for Pienaar who apparently asked about coming to Ulster and when the cash monkeys started waving cheques in his face he stayed with us. Rory Best too had fat cheques offered and said no thanks, I'll be staying right here.

Times change, circumstances change, often there comes a time when someone who said no in the past will say yes in the future.

by The Great Aukster Wed 17 Dec - 16:21

On the coaching front how do the provinces compete with the T14 and AP sides who are paying their DORs annual seven figure sums?

by asoreleftshoulder Wed 17 Dec - 16:38

The Great Aukster wrote:On the coaching front how do the provinces compete with the T14 and AP sides who are paying their DORs annual seven figure sums?

I'm not really sure if we can get into a bidding war but at least each team only has about 3 or 4 coaches.It's a lot easier to fight to fill 3 or 4 positions as compared to the 40 something playing positions in each squad.

by Pete330v2 Wed 17 Dec - 16:40

We can't Aukster, David Humps being the perfect example. Like you say, circumstances etc change and even a man who's heart is deeply rooted in Ulster Rugby can be lured away by one flash of a big wallet. Unless it's stopped now on a global scale it's soccerball salaries for the future and the introduction of the primadonna rugby player Smile

by Kingshu Wed 17 Dec - 19:39

To be honest I think the Pro 12 at present, is a bit like the Scottish Football league in the late 90's early 00's, (bare with we a moment)

The old firm could attrach top players and were financially and on the field rivals to the biggest clubs in England, (where the Pro 12 is now with the Provinces) but over the years the money pouring into the Premiership created a gap (they couldn't afford the same class of player, and their best players moved down to the Prem, some players stayed longer out of loyalty but they became fewer each year)
The Old Firm became equivalent to mid table teams, and the slide continued and now they are about the same as Championship Clubs.

Unless their is a big upsurge in the popularity in the Pro 12 then the same will happen to us over time, the difference that could save us is that football is the main sport, and the population sizes made the difference in revenue.

Rugby is a smaller sport, and if the Pro 12 could match the viewer figures that the Prem gets then we stand a chance, this means rugby has to become more popular in Scotland Wales and Ireland, than it is in England, so while we have a smaller population we have a higher % of them following rugby and can stay on a level field.

by **rodders** Wed 17 Dec - 20:34

Good points Kingshu.

by Sin é Wed 17 Dec - 21:23

The Sports Index was just published which gives a good indication as to how popular the various sports/personalities are in Ireland (ROI). Rugby has caught up with GAA in popularity which is fairly amazing.

Which of the following sports stars do you most admire? (top 10 only)

1. Katie Taylor 34%

2. Brian O’Driscoll 14%

3. Paul O'Connell 12%

4. Robbie Keane 6%

4. Rory McIlroy 6%

6. Conor McGregor 4%

6. AP McCoy 4%

6. Jonathan Sexton 4%

9. Henry Shefflin 3%

9. Ruby Walsh 3%

In your opinion, which of the following deserve the title of Team of the Year 2014? (top 5 only)

1. Irish Men’s rugby team 38%

2. Irish Women’s Rugby Team 20%

3. Kilkenny senior hurling team 9%

4. Kerry senior football team 7%

4. Cork Ladies Football Team 7%

What are you most looking forward to in 2015? (top 5 only)

1. The Rugby World Cup 25%

2. GAA All Ireland Senior Championships 21%

3. The Six Nations 17%

4. The Cheltenham Festival 5%

5. The Irish Open 3%

5. The Airtricity League 3%

What, in your opinion, was the greatest Irish sporting achievement of 2014? (top 5 only)

1. Katie Taylor winning her fifth World Championship gold medal in a row 30%

2. The Irish Rugby team winning the Six Nations 18%

3. Rory McIlroy winning two majors and reaching number one in the world 8%

4. Stephanie Roche being nominated for the FIFA Goal of the Year 7%

5. The Irish Rugby team going undefeated in the Autumn Series 6%

What is your favourite sport? (top 5 only)

1. Soccer 24%

2. Gaelic Sports 17%

3. Rugby 16%

4. Tennis 5%

4. Swimming 5%

What was the iconic Irish sporting moment of 2014?

1. Katie Taylor winning her fifth world title 20%

2. Brian O’Driscoll’s last game for Ireland 15%

3. Ireland holding on to win the 6 nations in France 14%

4. The Irish Women’s rugby team beating New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup 7%

5. John O’Shea’s injury time equaliser against Germany 6%

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 9:19

A few observations:

Whilst he was here Mueller was the forwards coach in all but name only

Bryn Cunningham continues to do what he was brought in to do sign up the good Irish players who have contracts terminating in 2015 (there are a lot of them) - Andrew Warwick in the third so far (2 years)

Financially Logan has made it clear Ulster can compete with the top English sides and I therefore assume so can Leinster and Munster (just a ? over Thormond debt there though) what we cant do is complete with the French (who can!).

Stephen Ferris does have a point but there is an even bigger issue - the complete and utter failure of the Academy over the last 10 years to produce more than a handful of players in positions outside of the threequarters.
Even look at our latest forward successes - O'Connor is a Dubliner Leinster let slip, Warwick has a professional contract inspite of the Academy not because of it.
Our Academy has not been fit for purpose and we need to start seeing results - there are only so many Irish grannies in the World.
Compared to Munster and Leinster we should hang our head in shame.

We have, over the same period, imo, not had a single top flight coach.
Solomon brought in some top Saffers but did not get us out of the HC groups once, did not win the Celtic league once. Received a big boost in financial backing - failure
McCall - couldn't manage his old playing mates, was stab in the back by the CEO, inexperienced. Has since gone on to success and is a really really nice bloke but at Ulster - failure
Williams - one of the strangest people I have ever met - did not nothing other than look like he was going to have a nervous breakdown when he wasn't flying back to the SH - complete and utter failure
Humphreys/McLoughlin -
McLoughlin was, and is, a great tactican but no man management skills. He survived because of the professionalism of the senior players in doing the man management side (primarily Muller). It pains me he effectively froze out Faloon and Diack because he showed no interest in the players outside the first XV. Also call me mean but he was given a set of forwards he did not create - Court (in his prime), Best, Botha/Afoa, Tuohy, Muller, Ferris, Wannenberg, Henry with Pienaer behind them. With Muller doing the forwards coaching hell I could have got us to an HC final !!
Basically he got lucky but to be fair the Humphreys/McLoughlin combo did take over a structure in shambolic free fall so they deserve credit for that - so maybe a qualified pass
Humphreys/Anscombe - we appointed the weakest of three candidates because Humphreys would not release any control. Anscombe proved to be unprofessional of the pitch and very poor man manager, to the extent Dublin and Mueller had to have a word in Logans ear - failure
Doak - I have seen nothing to suggest he is up to the job the fact Kiss is coming permanently after the WC confirms neither does Logan or Dublin.
Unfair to call him a failure but, sadly, I cannot see any other conclusion.

It is a sorry tale and what makes it particularly gawling is the fact I say Ryan Constable selling the place to Cheika on the old Prom just anfter MCLoughlin was ~~sacked~~ moved aside. He didn't come because Humpreys would let go.
We had the chance to sign a coach, who for all his faults, streets ahead of anyone we have had, and we blew it.

The good news is the 3 primary reasons we have underperformed compared to Munster and Leinster in the professional era - Adminstration, Coaching, Academy all have or show signs of changing.
Adminstration was sorted 4/5 years ago and is now in decent hands
Coaching - we have Kiss coming back after the WC who hopefully can do the job
Academy - McLoughlin is a good man to have in there but I do still worry about the set up. The Ravens for example remain a disorganised shambles which doesn't bode well

by Pete330v2 Thu 18 Dec - 9:32

There's less optimism in me the more this thread goes on.
Even yesterday's subject of keeping up with the big signings in France and England was echoed in the headlines I read later with Horwell going to Harlequins, Ashley-Cooper going to Bordeaux and Carter heading to Racing Metro. That's just the first trickle

I just get the feeling that before this is all over the IRFU will close that stable door long after the horse has bolted. We'll be left as a second or third division country and the Pro12 as a whole will be adversely effected. Will the Welsh, after their own torrid time of in fighting be able to pull together to beat the rot? Will the Scottish have more than one team left? Is it all doom and gloom? How long before cheque books overrulle hearts here in Ulster?

P.S. I just read your addition there Sin é and that's very interesting, one glimmer of light in the darkness Smile

The only thiing that ruins those stats is the inclusion of Rory McIlroy who for some reason I cannot abide. Mind you how he wins so much golf with his head so far up his own posterior is admirable I suppose.

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 9:43

Pete as I said we can compete financially with the English so from that prospective there is no reason to fall behind them.

Only Leicester have crowds better than the 3 senior Irish provinces for example, and only 3 others can match us - Gloucester, Quins, Saints - the rest are, often, significantly lower.
I know paying punters isn't everything but I use it as an illustration

What I wil lsay if the Welsh dont get there act together I can see a British and Irish league coming into being but the only 3 teams, the English, will be interested in joining will be the 3 senior Irish provinces as they attract the publicity and can generate siginificant additional income. The welsh could be in for an unpleasant shock when the 'teutonic plates' shift again.

by **George Carlin** Thu 18 Dec - 9:55

Very interesting posts immediately above.
I agree with Kingshu's analogy to the SPL in particular.
Scottish clubs are in exactly the same boat.

With guys like Matawalu moving to Bath, my big concern is that they won't be replaced.

by Pete330v2 Thu 18 Dec - 10:02

I truely worry for the future of primarily the Irish sides but obviously for the Pro12 Celtic clubs as a whole.
Can you imagine a time when salary caps are lifted and the soccerisation of rugby union is completed in order to remain on par with the French with every rugby player being a clone of the lovely Delon Armitage Smile

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 10:03

I think the difference is that, if the IRFU, play their cards right the 3 senior Irish provinces have something that the English would find attractive.

Ditching LI, LW and Falcons for the 3 senior provinces would make for a very high profile league.
I know about the rancor between the Irish and English vv HC but in the end money talks and is what interested the CEO's of many/most English teams, the above swap would generate more of that.

Where would that leave the Welsh, Scots and Italians ? - god knows.
Not saying it will happen, or that I like it, but I am just saying don't discount it

by **George Carlin** Thu 18 Dec - 10:06

geoff998rugby wrote:I think the difference is that, if the IRFU, play their cards right the 3 senior Irish provinces have something that the English would find attractive.

Ditching LI, LW and Falcons for the 3 senior provinces would make for a very high profile league.
I know about the rancor between the Irish and English vv HC but in the end money talks and is what interested the CEO's of many/most English teams, the above swap would generate more of that.

Where would that leave the Welsh, Scots and Italians ? - god knows.
Not saying it will happen, or that I like it, but I am just saying don't discount it

Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2 - Page 16 Cant_b13

by MrsP Thu 18 Dec - 10:08

I suspect it is much too early to judge McLoughlin's influence on the academy. They are certainly seem to be looking at younger players than they did before but that has it's own difficulties. Talent identification is a very difficult business. I'm sure we all know or have seen lads who look fantastic at 14 because they grew early and so could muscle their way past everyone else but then failed to develop skills because they didn't need any to muscle their way through.
Because our underage rugby is so heavily school based lots of potential talent is missed either because they are at a non-rugby playing school or because the school PE staff have no interest whatsoever in developing players past the 17th of March of their final year at school. The schools skill coaching in some of the Leinster schools in particular is miles ahead of ours from what I have seen.
I don't think our academy can do it's job properly until we sort out the school teacher's attitude that the school's cup is the end point for rugby player development.

by Standulstermen Thu 18 Dec - 10:22

Kiss is coming back as a more coaching orientated DoR. As I mentioned before this is the perfect time to bring in some fresh ideas. Doak has been here since McLaughlin which is what 5+ years? It's a long time with one voice as the backs coach. Jonny Bell I actually rate but Les Kiss is a specialist defence coach and let's see Jonny get some experience elsewhere. Leaving ulster doesn't have to be a negative.

Interesting that Geoff mentioned Johann but I would offer the guy a kings ransom to come back in a coaching capacity. Exactly the type of figure we need at the club. Has the respect of every single person with ulster rugby including every single fan.

As for the academy and ravens well the latter is clearly a shambles and maybe there is a lack of accountability at that level or something: I don't know. Lorcan Dow is a prospect, Taggart did rightly for Ireland in the JRWC. Why are these guys not starting or at least benching for the ravens. If there is an attitude issue then get rid but really it's mire important that these guys see some decent level of competition than watch mike mccomish fanny around for 80 minutes

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 11:03

Totally agree that it is way to early to judge McLoughlin in his new role but the mismanagement of the Ravens is a big worry.

We need new players to develop and picking the likes of McCormish and McComb in preference to Donnan, Dow and Taggart is a joke

Just taken a look at the Academy squad (18 players) and I think it is, potentailly, the strongest we have had for some time but those players will go backwards if they do not get meaningful game time

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 11:05

Regarding Johann I believe the situation is simple.
He has a sick father who can no longer run the family farm.
When the inevitable happens I think he will be open to an offer but no chance before because he is a man who knows what is really important in life.

He should come back, when he does, as forwards coach - Clarke like Doak doesn't impress and I think our forwards are deteriorating without the Mueller influence

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 11:25

Worth reading - list of when contracts up

Loosehead Prop
Callum Black[29][2015]
Ruaidhrí Murphy[27][2016]
Andrew Warwick[24][2017]

Academy
Michael Lagan[19][Year 1]

Hooker
Rory Best[32][2016]
Rob Herring[25][2015]
Kyle McCall[23][2015]

Academy
Paul Jackson[24][Year 1]
Jonny Murphy[23][Year 3]
John Andrew[22][Year 2]

Tighthead Prop
Declan Fitzpatrick[31][2016]
Ricky Lutton[29][2016]
Dave Ryan[29][2016]
Bronson Ross[29][2015]
Wiehahn Herbst[26][2017]

Academy
Craig Trenier[21][Year 1]

Locks
Franco van der Merwe[32][2016]
Neil McComb[31][2015]
Lewis Stevenson[30][2016]
Dan Touhy[29][2015]
James Simpson[24][2015]
Iain Henderson[23][2015]

Academy
Alan O'Connor[22][Year 3]
John Donnan[22][Year 2]
Alex Thompson[19][Year 1]

Backrow
Roger Wilson[33][2017]
Nick Williams[31][2016]
Mike McComish[31][2015]
Chris Henry[30][2017]
Robbie Diack[29][2017]
Sean Reidy[26][2015]
Charlie Butterworth[24][2015]
Clive Ross[24][2015]
Conor Joyce[21][2015]

Academy
Frankie Taggart[20][Year 1]
Josh Atkinson[20][Year 1]
Lorcan Dow[20][Year 1]

Scrumhalf
Ruan Pienaar[31][2017]
Paul Marshall[29][2017]
Michael Heaney[24][2015]

Academy
Dave Shanahan[22][Year 2]
Connor Young[19][Year 1]

Outhalf
Ian Humphreys[33][2016]
Paddy Jackson[23][2017]

Academy
Sean O'Hagan[20][Year 1]

Centre
Jared Payne[29][2016]
Darren Cave[28][2018]
Luke Marshall[24][2016]
Stuart McCloskey[22][2015]
Stuart Olding[22][2016]

Academy
Sam Arnold[19][Year 1]

Back Three
Tommy Bowe[31][2018]
Andrew Trimble[30][2015]
Louis Ludik[28][2016]
Ricky Andrew[25][2015]
Michael Allen[24][2015]
Craig Gilroy[24][2016]
Peter Nelson[22][2015]
Rory Scholes[21][2015]

Academy
David Busby[21][Year 1]
Jack Owens[20][Year 1]
Jacob Stockdale[19][Year 1]

Looking at those on 2015, not including Academy

Must sign: Black, Herring, Tuohy, Henderson, McCloskey, Trimble, Scholes
Useful: RossB, Reidy, RossC, Heaney, Allen, Andrew, Nelson
Not bothered: McCall, Simpson, Joyce
No way: McComb, McCormish, Butterworth

Of the 2 Year 3 Academy players - O'Connor must get a full contract, Murphy 'Not bothered'

The good news I dont think any of the 8 Must signs will be an issue

by Pete330v2 Thu 18 Dec - 11:37

That's far too many names possibly going up for auction next year Geoff. we should never be in a position where they all end contracts en-masse like that. I don't believe we'll lose the player we want to keep mind you.
Alan O'Connor should be thrown a contract right now and Deccie Fitz's ripped up. The dead wood has to go. We need doers not floaters Smile

by Pete330v2 Thu 18 Dec - 11:48

MrsP wrote:I suspect it is much too early to judge McLoughlin's influence on the academy. They are certainly seem to be looking at younger players than they did before but that has it's own difficulties. Talent identification is a very difficult business. I'm sure we all know or have seen lads who look fantastic at 14 because they grew early and so could muscle their way past everyone else but then failed to develop skills because they didn't need any to muscle their way through.
Because our underage rugby is so heavily school based lots of potential talent is missed either because they are at a non-rugby playing school or because the school PE staff have no interest whatsoever in developing players past the 17th of March of their final year at school. The schools skill coaching in some of the Leinster schools in particular is miles ahead of ours from what I have seen.
I don't think our academy can do it's job properly until we sort out the school teacher's attitude that the school's cup is the end point for rugby player development.

I agree MrsP, the amount of schools that don't even offer rugby as an option yet push the soccer and GAA as the only sports is a disgrace when rugby offers much more than just the sporting aspect. Rugby IMO offers life lessons that can be applied anywhere in life, the mutual respect aspect being the most fundamental. Yet the education system seems to prefer the screaming and often foul mouthed events I've witnessed at both youth soccer and GAA.
We coach around 40 little ones at our local club and the environment compared to that of the round-balled sports is a world apart from the very youngest levels right up. Respect, discipline and comradery are instilled as much as any physical aspect.

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 12:01

The 3 contracts I would not renew in 2016 are Fitzpatrick, Ryan and Williams

by Pete330v2 Thu 18 Dec - 12:03

geoff998rugby wrote:The 3 contracts I would not renew in 2016 are Fitzpatrick, Ryan and Williams

+1. As much as I like big Nick he's not been the player he was under Anscombe. I wonder why Smile

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 12:12

Nobody to buy him his beers at Cutters Wharf perhaps

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 12:15

Olding very close - may play this weekend

Jackson, Henderson, Payne, maybe even Trimble in the next 4/5 weeks

Herbst, Williams, Henry longer term

by Kingshu Thu 18 Dec - 12:40

As much as I like Willams I never thought that he was any use against the other top tier teams, his game is too high risk, against less clinical team the gains outweight the losses, but against the top the losses outweight the gains.

Think he needs to be replaced, with someone who can play at the very highest level.

by Kingshu Thu 18 Dec - 13:01

I was thinking theoretically, could the Welsh model of players being 60% contracted by the union with first call on the player be introduced more into the Pro 12?

For example could USA, Georgia, Fiji etc Centrally contact a few key players and place them with a Pro 12 team, (I think we had this with Danielli and the SRU).

Think it would really help the smaller teams, if they could get top players from smaller nations, for 40% of the wage?

But would it be benificial enough to the smaller Unions?

Imagine Treviso next year with a few Georgian forwards and some Island nations backs or Todd Clever added to the squad?

by The Great Aukster Thu 18 Dec - 13:25

MrsP wrote:I suspect it is much too early to judge McLoughlin's influence on the academy. They are certainly seem to be looking at younger players than they did before but that has it's own difficulties. Talent identification is a very difficult business. I'm sure we all know or have seen lads who look fantastic at 14 because they grew early and so could muscle their way past everyone else but then failed to develop skills because they didn't need any to muscle their way through.
Because our underage rugby is so heavily school based lots of potential talent is missed either because they are at a non-rugby playing school or because the school PE staff have no interest whatsoever in developing players past the 17th of March of their final year at school. The schools skill coaching in some of the Leinster schools in particular is miles ahead of ours from what I have seen.
I don't think our academy can do it's job properly until we sort out the school teacher's attitude that the school's cup is the end point for rugby player development.

Agree Mrs P

McL has put together some good programmes to identify and develop young talent while still at school. His lifetime experience should be a big plus - but then again looking at the number of pro players coming from Inst during his tenure maybe he's not that good at identifying and developing schoolboys?

For me the elephant in the room is the Ulster Schools Cup. I know it's the second oldest rugby tournament in the world but in truth it is not serving Ulster rugby nor the game of rugby in general very well. The other provinces have much closer connections between their schools and clubs whereas that is frowned upon in Ulster, because their grail is the USC. That means players who are still at school don't develop (especially in the forwards) because they are only ever facing other inexperienced schoolboys.

What needs to happen is for the Schools Cup to be open to Clubs as well as schools. Clubs are far more accessible to kids whose school don't play rugby or from schools that traditionally have not the numbers to be any good. Clubs could amalgamate teams from several schools under the one club banner and so become competitive in the USC and also establish links with kids who will then stay in the Club system a lifetime. The better kids will also get opportunities in games with adults so developing them much quicker.

by **rodders** Thu 18 Dec - 13:28

MrsP wrote:I suspect it is much too early to judge McLoughlin's influence on the academy. They are certainly seem to be looking at younger players than they did before but that has it's own difficulties. Talent identification is a very difficult business. I'm sure we all know or have seen lads who look fantastic at 14 because they grew early and so could muscle their way past everyone else but then failed to develop skills because they didn't need any to muscle their way through.
Because our underage rugby is so heavily school based lots of potential talent is missed either because they are at a non-rugby playing school or because the school PE staff have no interest whatsoever in developing players past the 17th of March of their final year at school. The schools skill coaching in some of the Leinster schools in particular is miles ahead of ours from what I have seen.
I don't think our academy can do it's job properly until we sort out the school teacher's attitude that the school's cup is the end point for rugby player development.

Exactly but thats the bigger issue and won't be resolved anytime this century so in the meantime how can we remain competitive in Europe?

The only answer is by continuing to sign marquee players but aside from the IRFU restrictions on NIEs, we can't possibly be in a position to fork out 100k euros a season salaries for top players, which is the way the game is going.

The future I believe is more inter provincial player exchanges to get players gametime and plug weaknesses. I'm not convinced that this will work well in practice or be sufficient to compete with the top sides though.

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 13:34

Whilst not disagreeing re mismanagement of players in school that doesn't alter the fact that the Academy was not fit for purpose for a decade pre McLoughlin and the Ravens remain not fit for purpose.

Kieron Campbell and before him Allan Clarke and Gary Longwell - sorry as coaches of the Ravens abject failures

by **rodders** Thu 18 Dec - 14:01

Geoff I understood that as far as McLaughlin was concerned the issue was the pre academy preperation - i.e. the clubs and Schools. That the level of preperadness is too low for players coming in.

Secondly that the gap between the big rugby playing schools and the rest is also too wide so the mechanisms for spotting talent outside these haven't been good enough - hence the regional academies have been set up.

Not saying the academy itself is up to scratch or not but there are mitgating factors with the grassroots game which will take years to address.

by geoff998rugby Thu 18 Dec - 14:07

I think all of that is correct and I understand what you are saying re McLoughlin being pre Academy.

What I meant to suggest is the Academy is already showing some signs of improving since McLoughlin started his new job.

I believe this crop are, overall, the strongest for a while.
Is McLoughlin responsible for that? or is it a coincidence? - I honestly dont know.

My concern is McLoughlin can feed the best players in the World to our Academy but it will not work unless they get game time for the Ravens to prove themselves

Especially when waste of spaces like McComb, McCormish, Ryan etc are playing instead !!!

by Pete330v2 Thu 18 Dec - 14:39

I do think we've seen more of the likes of Henderson, O'Connor, McCloskey and Olding coming from our academy than we've ever seen. We're talking players who will become household names if not internationally then at least across the Pro12 club scene.

by geoff999rugby Fri 19 Dec - 9:16

As I said Pete threequarters is not a problem and never has been - that is 2 of those you described

Our Academy can claim little credit for O'Connor - basically we picked up from Leinster.
They took their eye of the ball and we grabbed him from under their nose

That only leaves Henderson who was so good even our Academy couldn't screw it up

At this stage our Academy structure remains not fit for purposes and has not been so for 8+ years (threes apart)

by Pete330v2 Fri 19 Dec - 9:22

Oh I didn't realise O'Connor was a blow in, a bloody good catch in that case.
We're certainly not churning out enough manpower to meet our requirements these days.

I always questioned McLaughlin's time as coach but have heard nothing but good things being said about him in his current role so perhaps that will begin to bare fruit in the next few years.

P.S. I like that comment about Hendo, it's sunny because it's true.

by **rodders** Fri 19 Dec - 12:01

Dan Carter reportedly will be getting 1.5million euros a season at Racing.

I expect to see a lot of > 1 million salaries announced over the coming months in the run up to the RWC. Really don't see how the Irish provinces can compete financially with this, with or without the support of the IRFU.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Dec - 12:18

We can't...we won't.

We'll be back to watching all 'our' best players playing lovely rugby for English or French clubs and we'll think we're great when we go into pubs wearing our specially numbered Toulon, Saracens, Clermont, Toulouse or Leicester shirts to prove one of our lads is on our favourite Club sides!!!!

Lovely stuff - hello Football Premiership Mark 2.

by geoff999rugby Sat 20 Dec - 10:10

Black get 3 year deals so 7 must re- sign deals to go

Herring, Tuohy, Henderson, McCloskey, Trimble, Scholes, O'Connor

by Sin é Sat 20 Dec - 14:03

SecretFly wrote:We can't...we won't.

We'll be back to watching all 'our' best players playing lovely rugby for English or French clubs and we'll think we're great when we go into pubs wearing our specially numbered Toulon, Saracens, Clermont, Toulouse or Leicester shirts to prove one of our lads is on our favourite Club sides!!!!

Lovely stuff - hello Football Premiership Mark 2.

I think we are competing, but we only have enough for one or two marquee players per Province. There was an interview in The Examiner last week with John O'Sullivan (ex-Munster player, now voluntary Chair of the Pro-Players Management Committee or whatever its called), where he said that Munster were trying to recruit two players last year, one of which had 40 or 50 AB caps but they didn't come for personal reasons. One of the players I gather was Ben Smith (who decided to stay in New Zealand for the Lions Tour*) and the other player was Adam Ashely-Cooper who decided to go to Bordeaux for the weather (Munster were offering the same money) as he happened to play in Thomond Park for that horrible, horrible night when Munster beat Australia in Thomond Park!)

by geoff999rugby Sat 20 Dec - 14:06

As I stated currently our salary levels match those of the top English clubs - whether that remains to be the case remains to be seen

by **Notch** Sat 20 Dec - 17:31

Wiehahn Herbst can't get back soon enough!

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