Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

Cave will move in one, and Ludik/Allen will play 13.

carpet baboon wrote:Morning all. Olding off again with a bang to the head, McCloskey didn't look to good as he left. Who is next in line for 12 ? And will Marshall be back anytime soon?
All good things to ponder on a sunday

This concussion business is not good at all, this is the same scenario with Luke Marshall too, why are they coming back so soon and getting consecutive head injuries? This isn't being well regulated at all and is going to damage the careers of the players.

I am no professional and I imagine it is a very difficult thing to manage especially when the players want to play on. However they need to crack down and issue a certain amount of rest to any players who suffer from a knock to the head and have to be tested.

Darren Cave signs a new contract with Ulster for three years and I, for one, am absolutely delighted.

Delighted. Are we really going to have him, Payne, Marshall, Olding, McCloskey on contract, though? Worried it might mean one of the other lads is going.

Also, haven't double checked it, but I've read on the interweb that if Luke Marshall isn't back for this game, our subs bench against the Scarlets will have to feature all of our scrumhalves, as we don't have any other uninjured, Euro-registered backs. ..

Yeah, very possible- even likely.

http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/ulster_rugby.php?section=3

The backs we have definitely fit are Ruan Pienaar, Ian Humphreys, Craig Gilroy, Michael Allen, Darren Cave, Tommy Bowe, Louis Ludik, Dave Shanahan, Michael Heaney and Paul Marshall.

The potential absence of Paddy Jackson, Andrew Trimble, Stuart Olding, Stuart McCloskey, Luke Marshall and Jared Payne is pretty damaging.

It's surprising how few players we can actually have in that squad. Once you factor in the additional cover we have to include at 1, 2, 3 and 9 you really have very little cover.

Bryn Cunnigham seems hopeful/confident that Luke Marshall will be available, but we may as well pick six forwards on the bench as that still only leaves one non-scrumhalf available to us as a replacement. He said they probably have the most hope for Franco. He may well be available.

I am imagining our team will look like;

1- Callum Black
2- Rory Best (c)
3- Declan Fitzpatrick
4- Dan Tuohy
5- Franco van der Merwe
6- Robbie Diack
7- Clive Ross
8- Roger Wilson
9- Ruan Pienaar
10- Ian Humphreys
11- Craig Gilroy
12- Luke Marshall
13- Darren Cave
14- Tommy Bowe
15- Louis Ludik

16- Rob Herring
17- Andy Warwick
18- Bronson Ross
19- Lewis Stevenson
20- Alan O'Connor
21- Mike McComish
22- Paul Marshall
23- Michael Allen

Thats in the best case scenario of Franco and Luke being available. They may not be in which case O'Connor starts with Neil McComb on the bench, and Michael Heaney comes onto the bench as outside backs cover (!) while either Allen plays 13 and Cave plays 12, or Cave and Ludik are the centres with Gilroy moving to fullback and Allen coming in on the wing.

Not great... between 8 and 10 players missing from a 38-man European squad is a real handicap when you consider 10 out of those 38 players are front row forwards and 4 are specialist scrum-halves. Leaves resources in the back row and outside backs dangerously thin.

I have to say, while I know I'm leaving myself open to accusations of "loser talk", it might be no bad thing to focus on the Pro12.

With a very limited number of spaces to be earned in next year's Euro-comp, and Connacht coming up fast, we run the risk of losing out.

What's been Luke's injury keeping him out? Is it his concussion? I'm having a total brain freeze (possibly red wine for induced)

Don Alfonso wrote:I have to say, while I know I'm leaving myself open to accusations of "loser talk", it might be no bad thing to focus on the Pro12.

With a very limited number of spaces to be earned in next year's Euro-comp, and Connacht coming up fast, we run the risk of losing out.

I don't think we run the risk of losing out, but I do think we should be focusing our resources on getting that elusive home semi-final.

Don Alfonso wrote:Delighted.  Are we really going to have him, Payne, Marshall, Olding, McCloskey on contract,  though? Worried it might mean one of the other lads is going.

Also, haven't double checked it, but I've read on the interweb that if Luke Marshall isn't back for this game, our subs bench against the Scarlets will have to feature all of our scrumhalves, as we don't have any other uninjured,  Euro-registered backs. ..

I'd have all four of them ahead of Cave so it would be disastrous to lose any of those to keep Cave.

WRT to the backs situation I'd play Pienaar at 15 and start Small Parcel at 9. I wouldn't risk anyone who is carrying any sort of injury because it's just not worth it.

Notch wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:I have to say, while I know I'm leaving myself open to accusations of "loser talk", it might be no bad thing to focus on the Pro12.

With a very limited number of spaces to be earned in next year's Euro-comp, and Connacht coming up fast, we run the risk of losing out.

I don't think we run the risk of losing out, but I do think we should be focusing our resources on getting that elusive home semi-final.

How many Pro12 places are there? One for each of the top finishers of each nation - Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Italian. And two runners up. Not a lot of wriggle room.

Three runners up.

Top 5 is always a guarantee for qualification regardless of what nation you're from. Top six is a guarantee so long as there are teams from 3 out of 4 nations in the top 6 and I can't see Glasgow slipping out of the top half.

I can accept a worst case scenario were we don't finish in the top four, but I can not see the top five sides not being the five sides who are there now. Ospreys, Ulster, Glasgow, Munster, Leinster. Racing certainties for Europe in my opinion.

The last two spots are between Connacht and Scarlets and Zebre and Treviso.

So that's the end of another European season for Ulster.

Interesting to read some of the comments on here about Cave. Obvious that some Ulster fans have a significantly higher opinion of him than anyone else - especially Joe Schmidt. Wonder why that is?

Truth is, this Ulster team is full of "also rans". Guys who are just happy to play in their comfort zone, who really aren't good enough to win anything, who don't want to be pushed, who think it's OK to come second (or third, or fourth...). Cave is one of those guys. So is Rory Best, Roger Wilson and a number of others. Indeed, it's only Bowe and the South Africans that have any sort of winning mentality in Ulster.

I guess that's why the majority of the squad wanted rid of Anscombe. He had no time for quitters or losers. He told too many truths. Too many guys didn't like what he had to say (exhibit A: Declan Fitzpatrick). And now we have Doak and Les Kiss (a completely unproven head coach at any level in rugby union) - not exactly a sign of great ambition.

We're back to the good old Brian McLaughlin days. I got slaughtered on this forum after the 2012 European Cup final for stating that there was a major character deficit in that squad. Too many players 'happy' to lose a final. And now we're back there again, except this time around they're not good enough to make the final. Indeed, they're only good enough to come bottom of their group.

Excuses, excuses, excuses... give it a few months and Doak will be throwing players under the bus. It'll be blame and counter blame. A terrible environment - just wait and see... Ulster will fade back into the no.3 Irish province and a second or third tier European team. Still there'll be plenty of seats available in the Kingspan Stadium...

I feel sorry for the young lads - Gilroy, Olding, Jackson and co. Better for them to get out of Ravenhill to be honest. That'll probably happen given that Logan seems intent on throwing money away on resigning the likes of Cave and Wilson. There'll be damn all left for the others.

I expect that I'll get hammered for writing this, but it's what I feel. Good luck & good night.

I'm just wondering what evidence you have when you say the likes of Cave, Best and Wilson are happy enough with being second best. Also we were not going anywhere under Anscombe either, his style of play did not suit us at all and we were not progressing when we should have been.

Hmm, fairly sensible in terms of the argument and flawed by being phrased in a ludicrously overwrought way. Indeed you've started out with some good points and then got overwrought and ended up with massive exaggeration. Thats why you'll likely get hammered, not because you aren't talking sense. It's the massive exaggeration. For instance, thats nonsense about Best. Say what you like about Cave and the others, and I have some sympathy with it, but O'Sullivan was aghast he wasn't a Lion before he was and for Kidney and Schmidt he was/is automatically in the team. Stephen Ferris, a guy with the stuff mentally, calls him the best he ever played with. His performances at international level make him a player who could walk into a top, top club tomorrow at higher than the salary the IRFU are giving him. Poor choice of target. The gulf between Cave and Best in terms of leadership and mentality- huge.

I guess the argument falls down when it was the senior players who are alleged to have problems with Anscombes methods- basically the guys you were happy to let off the hook were the ones leading the charge.

I've only seen the result but I'm quite relieved because we were never going to be good enough to win a quarter-final away from home and this hurt will serve us well for next week, which is a big game in the league. We can still win the league, its not impossible.

So was dumping McLaughlin a mistake then? I thought it was at the time.

Nah I don't think so, but what followed after... Anscombe was not a big enough improvement. I still think McLaughlin was not good enough to get us to the top. Anscombe got us closer but still not close enough.

Tbh, think the handling of these decisions has been the shambles not the decisions themselves.

So after watching a very impressive return from Luke Marshall in the 12 shirt, Ulster are going to have to seriously think about either a positional change or a move to another province for one of the 12s. If he can play to the same standard for a string of games, he will be hard to drop! Which has been said about both McCloskey and Olding this year.

Who moves and who is the best option for the current Ulster team?

David Humphreys has to take the flak for how McLaughlin was dealt with, and for giving Anscombe another year when he knew that he himself would be going.

I agree with Notch in that Anscombe had lost the dressing room and the calls to go came from the very top players who command the utmost respect - his position was untenable.

Having said that, I agree with UMIK that Cave isn't Test class and it was interesting that BOD singled out his defence for some criticism before the game - Payne may not be the answer but the sooner Ulster find a Test class 13 the better. I also agree that Roger Wilson never has been Test class and is getting further away every week. In fact the back row now only has 30 y.o. Henry who might be considered in the Elite bracket, but the most worrying thing is the lack of prospects behind them.

I appreciate UiK's emotion because I have said it for years that something is lacking. My argument back then is that I wasn't convinced our backs and our attacking play was of a high enough level and Doaks tenure has proved it beyond a doubt.

That backline today still consisted of a RWC winner, a two time lion, and three internationals. Conditions were poor but our kick, kick and kick again approach has been seen in better conditions than today. It was said McLaughlin and Anscombe had shackled him but our attack is lightyears behind McLaughlin never mind Anscombe.

The only thing I would say is that (if report is true) Johann Muller was involved in bringing Anscombes unpopularity to Logans attention and wouldn't cast aspersions on that mans character in any way. But the point is valid that we need a coach the players respect and have a healthy does of fear of. Doak isn't that man

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So after watching a very impressive return from Luke Marshall in the 12 shirt, Ulster are going to have to seriously think about either a positional change or a move to another province for one of the 12s. If he can play to the same standard for a string of games, he will be hard to drop! Which has been said about both McCloskey and Olding this year.

Who moves and who is the best option for the current Ulster team?

I'd really like to see Olding get an extended run at 13, because I haven't been convinced that Payne is the answer there. McCloskey and Marshall can rotate for 12 - there is room for them all and no need for anyone to move. A bigger issue is the back three places where Ulster have Payne, Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Ludik, Nelson, and Scholes - that's probably one too many players of that quality.

StandU - have to disagree completely.

Ulster lost the game in the first half because Fitzpatrick and the backrow aren't up to this level. That's nothing to do with Doak and everything to do with a lack of quality forwards. The backs had precious little ball to do anything with, and yet both last week and this they still managed to score from planned moves - that's actually very rare and shows how good Ulster's coaches are.

I watched the first half. WE had plenty of opportunity to move the ball to the backs. It was kick tennis and we were doing it into the wind. What did we think would happen? Im not just referring to this game though and you're right the pack need to take their share of the blame.

The penalty count in the first half was 11 - 3 in favour of Scarlets. Most of those were scrum or breakdown, plus there were ordinary turnovers. With no consistency of possession it is very hard to execute any planned moved.

With regard to the tactics I thought the kick tennis was fine in the first half. Handling was obviously difficult so both teams had been told by their coaches to let the other try and string moves together in the rain. The problem was that when the inevitable knock-on happened Ulster conceded the scrum. What was the alternative? Try to run from deep when Ulster were losing the scrum and breakdown? Ulster simply don't have the ball carriers in this team to hold onto the ball in wet weather and make ground.

When the weather eased in the second half Ulster played with more ball in hand and won that 13 - 10 so it could be argued that Doak and co. gave them the right instructions at half time.

The Great Aukster wrote:I agree with Notch in that Anscombe had lost the dressing room and the calls to go came from the very top players who command the utmost respect - his position was untenable.

Unfortunately there in lies the problem at Ulster - when the top players can usurp the coach then you have a problem.

I'm imagine quite a few top coaches are not universally popular - that's not the coaches job. Can you imagine Richard Cockeral getting the chop because he winds the players up?

I'm not saying Anscombe was the answer but to sack him, with no immediate alternative lined up and replace him with a couple of inexperienced homedown boys wasn't really the best idea for a club that has asperations of silverware in my opinion.

The team have never recovered psyhcologically from the mauling by Toulon - this is where experience is needed in a head coach and we don't have it. The injuries haven't helped but I think it runs deeper than that -the confidence built up over the past 3-4 seasons has evaperated and there is a panic about the side  -summed up by the idiotic final play by two of our most experienced players yesterday and Bowe, Cave and Marshall bombing a certain try.

The head coach doesn't have to be popular, but has to be respected. When the coach loses respect by treating players unfairly and dividing the team, either he goes or half the team goes. There is no evidence to suggest that Anscombe could have done any better with this team than Doak.

As for the "mauling" by Toulon - after the half time talk, Ulster won the second half 10-7. A fairly good performance considering that only one or two of the Ulster starters would have a sniff of getting into the Toulon side. Ulster's pack in comparison was seriously under-powered especially the backrow so I'd be interested to know how Anscombe would have redressed that imbalance to produce a win.

I do agree that game did affect the team psychologically though as the stark reality of the gulf in class became apparent. Rory Best summed it up afterwards when he acknowledged the superior numbers of good decision-makers Toulon had on the pitch. The players they have are not just imposing specimens but experienced at using their heads as well. To me this is a fundmental shortcoming in the current Ulster team that no amount of coaching will instill in players that don't possess it to start with.

Roger Wilson has never impressed me as a "heads up" rugby player, so it wasn't surprising that he threw the intercept yesterday. The trouble is that he is not alone: Cave, Stevenson, Fitzpatrick, Diack, Williams, (maybe Ludik) and Paul Marshall spring to mind as being guys who have been around the block and should know better, but just don't have any real nous to their game. Unfortunately if Anscombe had stayed I don't think it would have been that group of players that would be looking to leave.

I actually blame Pienaar for trying to break open when the scrum had wheeled towards the blindside - Wilson shouldn't have passed but no idea what Ruan was doing there.

How Wilson has got 3 more years is beyond me though. I'd get rid of both him and Williams and try and get someone half decent. I wonder if Kaino is still interested....

Kaino will be 32 next April and will still command a lot of dough. Ulster don't have the luxury of taking on someone like him when they already have Wilson, Henry and Williams (and McComish!) in their thirties and Diack is 29. They should be looking for much younger guys in the Wiehahn Herbst mould who are on the periphery of Test selection but have at least some proven high level experience.

I was joking about Kaino!

Backrow is a real weakness though. Henderson could add a bit of power at 6 and Diack switch to cover for Henry but other than that the options are thread bare. Might Willie Faloon come back?

I see Ferris has kicked the hornets nest, or at least the beeb are trying to spin it that way regarding overseas signings. In fairness I don't agree we need more than 4 + 1 on the overseas/project players.

They do need to be top quality mind you. I think more should be invested in getting the best coaching involved at all the provinces. Bringing in new and fresh perspectives should be a good thing for irish rugby. I have no issue with a homegrown coach but to my mind they should have a bit of experience coaching outside of Ireland before they get the big job at any of the provinces.

Standulstermen wrote:I see Ferris has kicked the hornets nest, or at least the beeb are trying to spin it that way regarding overseas signings. In fairness I don't agree we need more than 4 + 1 on the overseas/project players.

They do need to be top quality mind you. I think more should be invested in getting the best coaching involved at all the provinces. Bringing in new and fresh perspectives should be a good thing for irish rugby. I have no issue with a homegrown coach but to my mind they should have a bit of experience coaching outside of Ireland before they get the big job at any of the provinces.

Totally agree.

The lack of big name foreign signings isn't why we failed to get out of that group, and certainly not why we failed to win against Scarlets as Ferris and McWhirter seem to be suggesting.
Maybe Doak put them up to it.

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I see Ferris has kicked the hornets nest, or at least the beeb are trying to spin it that way regarding overseas signings. In fairness I don't agree we need more than 4 + 1 on the overseas/project players.

They do need to be top quality mind you. I think more should be invested in getting the best coaching involved at all the provinces. Bringing in new and fresh perspectives should be a good thing for irish rugby. I have no issue with a homegrown coach but to my mind they should have a bit of experience coaching outside of Ireland before they get the big job at any of the provinces.

Totally agree.

I also am in agreement

On listening to that interview it struck me that the fault doesn't lie with the IRFU's stance but with the Aviva Prem. and Top14 being given a free reign with their cheque books and international singings which will have a deeper effect than just hogging all the marquee signings in the future. While they grow stronger we can only fall by the wayside, the old story of the rich growing richer while the poor grow poorer. It could be a bleak future as all the quality players' and coaches' eyes focus where the money and silverware lies.
The Irish international scene is looking very good but as Stevie says, it's the weekly club rugby that will suffer for the glory of the once a year international tournaments.

Ulster still have a chance in Europe. If they beat Toulon (4-0) and Leicester beat Scarlets (4-0), it would be:
Toulon - 13
Leicester - 12
Ulster - 10
Scarlets - 8

Then if you beat Leicester (4-0) and Scarlets beat Toulon (4-0), it would be:
Ulster - 14
Toulon - 13
Scarlets - 12
Leicester - 12

The main questionable one is Scarlets beating Toulon but the other Toulon game would be in your hands.

HammerofThunor wrote:Ulster still have a chance in Europe. If they beat Toulon (4-0) and Leicester beat Scarlets (4-0), it would be:
Toulon - 13
Leicester - 12
Ulster - 10
Scarlets - 8

Then if you beat Leicester (4-0) and Scarlets beat Toulon (4-0), it would be:
Ulster - 14
Toulon - 13
Scarlets - 12
Leicester - 12

The main questionable one is Scarlets beating Toulon but the other Toulon game would be in your hands.

No hope then Hammer

Anscombe should have been retained.  So what if certain players didn't like him (most of them already leaving too?) - quite a number of Leinster players wouldn't have liked Cheika.  And I'm sure around Europe, other sides haven't a matey relationship with their coaches but are still relatively successful.

I doubt Ulster would be in the Pool position they are now had he still been onboard.  One person left without warning and it seems Ancombe was then the wrong man at the right time for Ulster heads to again exert authority after the embarrassment of being side-tracked so suddenly by perhaps the man they trusted most not to leave them in a lurch.

HammerofThunor wrote:Ulster still have a chance in Europe. If they beat Toul..

OK I just stopped reading the rest of what you said...

Can anyone tell me when Olding, Hendo, McCloskey are back?

Hoi peeps how you all doing !

Been lurking for a fair while - was away for a couple of months but thought I would jump in on a couple of points

Firstly can we please put the player power got rid of Anscombe to bed please.
It was not.

Logan originally was going to keep him for his last year albeit with reservations.
However two things changed his mind:
1 - Dublin made it clear they were not impressed not only as a coach but also his lack of professionalism off the pitch (often fuelled by too much alchol), he had favourites - little ,largely Kiwi, drinking club in Cutters Wharf.
2 - He had a couple of heart to heart chats with Johann Muller before he left and basically Johann told him Anscombe was not good news.

When Dublin said Les Kiss was availabel that along with Johann's advice decided it.
I think it was the correct decision.

Having said that it was determined Ulster needed Les Kiss for the simple reason Neil Doak is not up to the head coach job.
I think we will be pretty ruderless until Les Kiss returns.

---------------------------
On the injury front I believe Olding, Jackson, Henderson and Payne are closer i.e Dec/Jan than Henry, Williams and Herbst.
McCloskey I dont know.

---------------------------
Also the reduction of players from 4+1 to 4 total is coming in next year.
I assume existing contracts will be honoured as Ulster have 5 players total contracted for next year

Bout ye Geoff!

Great points except for one contradiction - Kiss isn't available so we are stuck with Doak until after the RWC.

Did Ulster know this when they got rid of Anscombe? Or did the IRFU do a U-turn on Kiss?

Hey Geoff, great to hear from you, we've been wondering where you've been.

Understand Kiss is not available now - that was known at the time.
He never was going to be.

I think when Dublin suggested the currently solution , Logan dithered but Johanns words tipped the balance into getting rid of Anscombe.

Basically it was have a head coach who is not seen as good enough for a year (Doak) or one seeing out his contract who was seen as unprofessional and a bad egg (Anscombe)

Neither was an attractive solution.

Because none of our NIQ contracts are up this coming summer we went with the Doak solution and brought in a respected ex player - Bryn Cunningham, to re-sign the IQ boys who contracts are up this coming summer.

Cave and Wilson are the start of that.
By the way I have read Wilson has a 3 year contract on her - thats not true it is 2 years and at a reduced salary. Cave is 3 years.

As an aside the only 2 players who left last year (not counting retirements) we wanted to keep were Annett and Farrell - the rest were not offered contracts.

Little breakdown of the squad - by and large it doesn't make for pretty reading.

At prop we have 2 excellent prospects - Herbst and Warwick, 1 good provincial player - Black, 2 good backups - Lutton (he should be getting some game time), Ross (has come on a ton this year). Fitzpatrick I just despair - physically tried everything he just isn't up to it, Murphy is medicore imv, Dave Ryan is simply not good enough - waste of a contract.

Hooker - Best, Herring - big void

2nd Row - Van de Merwe, Tuohy, O'Connor (best find of the year), Stevenson.
McComb is a joke and will not get a new contract, Donnan is the only other younster likely to make the grade

Back row - Henry, Diack, Wilson and .... Williams is not fit and nearly all performances ave been unacceptable.
Ross and Reidy cover players only, Butterworth will be moving on - not made it, Joyce will not make it. McCormish is an even bigger joke than McComb and will also leave after this contract.

Scrum half - some bloke called Pienaer and not great cover imv - Marshall, Heaney, Shanahan. Good prospect in the Ravens O'Connor but a bit early to tell

Fly half - Jackson, Humphreys after than O'Hagan looks good but a bit early to tell

11 to 15 we seem fine depth wise. Now Anscombe has gone nice to see a smile on Peter Nelson's face he seems to be enjoying himself again.

In truth the almost total absence of players coming through the ranks in the forwards is a grave cause for concern we simple cannot go on like this - remember of the players I list above in a positive light only Best, Warwick, Lutton, Stevenson, Henry and Wilson are Ulstermen and only Warwick and Lutton are under 29.
We cant even say we have lost promising forwards - Faloon (thank you McLoughlin !), McAllister, Annett - that is a very very bare cupboard

Farrell's new boss Mr Jackman has been raving about him and I know I was sorry to see the big lad go. No matter how congested our midfield looked at one stage it certainly isn't a packed area now.
As long as we can concentrate on reaching the playoffs I'm not fussed about much else. It'll be s struggle enough doing that but I won't say anything against Doaky in case I am reprimanded again.....

"Hooker - Best, Herring - big void"

If we lose Herring to injury during the 6 nations that only leaves 'big void' as cover

In seriousness we'd be in the deep do-do. I know Murphy finished last season at hooker and looked to do a decent enough job.

That big injury list continues to haunt us with it always being those keys players out. I mean Ruan has only started playing for us and it's christmas, Hendo not about, Payne in pain, Trimbs in a moon boot. G.G. has a big old workload these days.

You forgot Hendo there Geoff!

Not overly impressed by Van Der Merwe if truth be told. Looks the part physically and puts himself about but the lineout has been very poor and he doesn't seem to bring anything in the leadership department. Am I being harsh?

Whoops - yer he'll do
It does emphasis that Ulster need him as a backrower but Ireland need him as a lock (a square to be circled)
O'Connor's emergence has made that even more stark.

Not really harsh on de Merwe - a good honest provincial level pro.

Bottom line is he has1 SA cap.
Muller has 24 caps and a WC winners medal (and that in the era of Botha and Matfield)

There is a reason for that disparity

One biggy is summer of 2016 - Ludik, der Merwe and Willaims contract all up and we will only be allowed 2 NIQ players.
Seeing what I see now I make them both backrowers

geoff998rugby wrote:
One biggy is summer of 2016 - Ludik, der Merwe and Willaims contract all up and we will only be allowed 2 NIQ players.
Seeing what I see now I make them both backrowers

Are we seriously stuck with Williams until then?

Yep but a buy out would not surprise me

What I would like to see if indeed the rumours were true that Johann and Rory were leading things a lot under Anscombe is potentially a return of the big man as a forwards coach under Kiss. As I said above I wouldn't question the integrity of Muller and in fairness if Geoff is right then I am being harsh on Doak who is merely filling in. That said I would like to see some fresh face in a Kiss coaching setup. Irrespective of head coach some new ideas in the backs cant be a bad thing. Will Jonny Bell be retained given Kiss is specially a defence coach at international level?

Aukster brought up a point earlier that I agreed with too. I would like to see the young lads given a go in the centre as a combination. Not that I don't rate Cave or Payne but we seem reluctant to trust the young lads as a pairing (perhaps with reason) but they haven't been given a go yet to find out. Marshall/McCloskey and olding would be very exciting.