606v2 Rugby Fans Scottish Independence Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

 v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).
 
If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.
 
It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:
 
1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?
 
2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.
 
If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.
 
What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.
 
Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

[LordDowlais]

Well I am trying to convince the Scotts to stay with us, but it looks like I am failing badly.

Oh well at least I tried, God love a tryer.

[PenfroPete]

MANAGEMENT - there's absolutely no way, never, not ever, ever, ever there'll be a pay rise or more family friendly working hours /practices this year

UNION REPS - Oh, OK sorry to have troubled you, there'll be no negotiations

This is not about trade unions getting equal rights for their workers, this is about another country allowing another use their currency, it's a little different from getting an extra tea break and 3.5% on your hourly pay.

I am just using the example to illustrate that parties start from differing viewpoints when negotiations start. As was pointed out earlier, Rev Ian Paisley's initial start point was NEVER !!! In the end he and McGuinness worked together and McGuinness counted him a friend

[SecretFly]

Well I am trying to convince the Scotts to stay with us, but it looks like I am failing badly.

Oh well at least I tried, God love a tryer.

I think you're on the winning side. Chin up.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

[beshocked]

I'm sure the Scots appreciate all the interest in their affairs, although it's a shame they've been marginalised in their own thread (there is some deep meaning there somewhere).

I for one, and every person I know, will not be bitter towards Scotland (no more than they already are ).  The history will still be there. Radge, if your Godson is still in Hull, and I am as well, send him round to me when he's grown up and I'll set him right.  If he's growing up in Yorkshire he'll have a good strong identity anyway and with the calls for local governance here I'm sure he'll understand.

Any Englishman affronted by the sheer moxy of Scottish people to leave the Union need a slap. I don't care if we're worse off, they have the right to make this decision and to live with it. Plenty of world economies grew rich of slavery or explotation, so should they stay? No, we get rid of them where we can (or at least shift explotation to those poor countries no-one really seems to care about). This country grew on the backs of working people all over, in shocking conditions. We gave rights, introduced safety standards, increased wages to fair levels...any the work goes to the countries where they don't worry about that sort of thing.  Does that mean it was the wrong thing to do? I wouldn't say so.  Clearly an over done example but the principle is the same.

There is one issue here, and that is whether Scottish people (however they are classed) want to be in an independent country.  They may decide that based on 'facts' or emotion. Personally I think 99% are doing it on emotion and will twist the facts to meet it. And there is nothing wrong with that. The economic state of Scotland or rUK or the world is always subject to change. Maybe they're find a whole load more oil, maybe it'll run out sooner, maybe someone will invent something that makes oil redudant, maybe that person is Scottish.  Voting with your heart is the way to do it my opinion.

Hammerofthunor you obviously don't care about the Union but don't act all high and mighty. No one is stopping Scotland making their own decision.

Voting with your heart is right? Completely disagree. You have to step back and take emotion out of it.

Braveheart mentality from the Yes faction is far too apparent and the Irish want to jump in on the action too.

[Notch]

I've voted in every election I've been eligible to vote in- both when I was living in Scotland and when I was living in Northern Ireland.

Looking back I don't think I was ever doing anything more than choosing the least worst option, and in spite of any idealism I felt at the time I've become rather cynical and disengaged. I think that right now in the YES campaign there is a groundswell of optimism and positivity amongst many activists. I just hope that level of engagement with politics in Scotland carries on after the referendum. We need people of every background to hold politicians to account. Too much of the UK is like me; cynical and disillusioned and unable to see anyway of holding the government to account. Once you cease thinking you can change anything, well, thats a self-fulfilling prophecy and it's a trap that the people who really hold the power will be quite happy about seeing you fall into.

Whats happening with many people in Scotland is they are discovering radical change can be affected through exercising their democratic franchise. For better or worse. And only history will tell us which it is.

[quinsforever]

when all i hear from Salmond are threats not to pay their share of debt unless they get Sterling. After RBS and HBOS cost UK taxpayers GBP65bn. While 2 Scots MPs (Blair and Brown) were piloting the ship. Yes, that does annoy me.

its nothing to do with misplaced pride in the "Union". it's about Salmond trying to bend rUK over a barrel and shaft them.

So if its a YES, and i hope that it is, rUK will owe Scotland nothing. And rUK will have to look after its own voters. And the outcome of the 18months of negotiations will surely reflect that new reality.

[Notch]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

So... was it a YES then?

[SecretFly]

Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."  

As he found out to his cost when he forever thought that Blair would stick to some unwritten Leadership agreement and his advisors kept moaning behind his back: "Don't believe him, Gov. Don't believ the lad with the Cheshire Cat smile."

Where did that lad, Salmond get born and bred incidently?  His answer was 'scaremongering some of the time is cheap-shotism most of the time'.

[RuggerRadge2611]

As a wiseman has already said :

"The poll booth has a curtain for a reason."

I'm afraid for me to use that quote would be a bit like closing the Fence when the Horse is 73 miles away....

As I already said people will all have their own reasons for their voting choices.

I just hope that we can all move on after no matter the result and build a better Scotland for everyone.

[SecretFly]

Braveheart mentality from the Yes faction is far too apparent and the Irish want to jump in on the action too.

Our action is done and dusted many decades ago now. We're all having a rest-up cup o tea now and a big bun from all the effort. Gromit! Pass me the Winsleydale

[beshocked]

Notch fair points but the biggest problem is the lack of concrete answers from the Yes camp.

Taking emotion out of it - will Scotland actually make independence work if they go Yes?

[SecretFly]

Yes.

[Notch]

As a wiseman has already said :

"The poll booth has a curtain for a reason."

I'm afraid for me to use that quote would be a bit like closing the Fence when the Horse is 73 miles away....

As I already said people will all have their own reasons for their voting choices.

I just hope that we can all move on after no matter the result and build a better Scotland for everyone.

Amen Radge. I really do hope that the result is the best result for all of the people in Scotland. It's just hard to know what is best. I really do wish you and all the other posters in Scotland all the best in the next few years. Good luck- you'll need it as much as everyone else in the UK

[RuggerRadge2611]

Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."  

As he found out to his cost when he forever thought that Blair would stick to some unwritten Leadership agreement and his advisors kept moaning behind his back: "Don't believe him, Gov. Don't believ the lad with the Cheshire Cat smile."

Where did that lad, Salmond get born and bred incidently?  His answer was 'scaremongering some of the time is cheap-shotism most of the time'.

Our FM was born in Linlithgow.

And for the record I don't accept rational voices from business such as the Governer of the Bank of England or even the BBC to be scaremongerers.

From my experience any fact the YES Campaign don't like is treated as "scaremongering".

[LordDowlais]

MANAGEMENT - there's absolutely no way, never, not ever, ever, ever there'll be a pay rise or more family friendly working hours /practices this year

UNION REPS - Oh, OK sorry to have troubled you, there'll be no negotiations

This is not about trade unions getting equal rights for their workers, this is about another country allowing another use their currency, it's a little different from getting an extra tea break and 3.5% on your hourly pay.

I am just using the example to illustrate that parties start from differing viewpoints when negotiations start. As was pointed out earlier, Rev Ian Paisley's initial start point was NEVER !!! In the end he and McGuinness worked together and McGuinness counted him a friend  

Yes, ok I think we have found some middle ground, but it's easy to say, ah they'll never do that to us, but THEY could, and you would need a very good get out of jail card to counteract it, and for me the YES campaign have not even thought of what could happen if Westminster stick to their guns. There are lot's of incidents like this in the YES campaign and not once have they turned around to the Scottish public and said, "Dont worry if such and such happens, we have this plan in place for it", the truth is they do not have a plan, Alex Salmon is twisting the minds of the everyday Scottish person by beating the nationalism drum, he is getting half the population all wound up in a patriotic sense of fury without telling them about the rough seas ahead if the UK does not give them what HE wants, he has his own agenda, he always has, and I want the everyday Scottish person to realise this because I care.

[Notch]

Notch fair points but the biggest problem is the lack of concrete answers from the Yes camp.

Taking emotion out of it - will Scotland actually make independence work if they go Yes?

Hard to reduce it to a yes or no answer.

I think so, I think they will and they'll be able to stand by it, but there will be many hardships along the way. There will be a very rocky period and the process of disentangling from the UK will be drawn out and painful for both parties.

Ultimately I think the long-term future can and probably will be fairly secure in comparison to most countries around the world but the road to that point is fraught with challenges and difficulties.

[Notch]

Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."  

As he found out to his cost when he forever thought that Blair would stick to some unwritten Leadership agreement and his advisors kept moaning behind his back: "Don't believe him, Gov. Don't believ the lad with the Cheshire Cat smile."

Where did that lad, Salmond get born and bred incidently?  His answer was 'scaremongering some of the time is cheap-shotism most of the time'.

Our FM was born in Linlithgow.

And for the record I don't accept rational voices from business such as the Governer of the Bank of England or even the BBC to be scaremongerers.

From my experience any fact the YES Campaign don't like is treated as "scaremongering".

Fun fact. Alex Salmond and I share an alma mater, Linlithgow Academy.

[fa0019]

Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."  

As he found out to his cost when he forever thought that Blair would stick to some unwritten Leadership agreement and his advisors kept moaning behind his back: "Don't believe him, Gov. Don't believ the lad with the Cheshire Cat smile."

Where did that lad, Salmond get born and bred incidently?  His answer was 'scaremongering some of the time is cheap-shotism most of the time'.

Our FM was born in Linlithgow.

And for the record I don't accept rational voices from business such as the Governer of the Bank of England or even the BBC to be scaremongerers.

From my experience any fact the YES Campaign don't like is treated as "scaremongering".

For me I took insult to the south African analogy.. firstly Scotland have always been empowered politically... hell Brown and Blair are both Scottish. Cameron is half Scottish himself. Africans and Coloreds had no vote, no voice.

And poverty, most people in Britain whether they are on benefits or not don't know what real poverty is. Thanks the lord you were born in a country that provides you with education, basic health and for near all, a roof over your head.

The NHS is near unique... and it was the brainchild of a Welshman..... who is to say without the union Scotland would have ever had a NHS? Their are dozens of more left leaning nations who don't.

[PenfroPete]

There’s no right or wrong way to make the decision. For some it will, be the head – how will this affect me and my family economically ..etc. For others it will be the heart – I believe in self government and right of a nation to control their own destiny ..etc

Either way, we need to respect the democratically arrived at decision of the Scottish people (even if they're wrong like   )

[SecretFly]

From my experience any fact the YES Campaign don't like is treated as "scaremongering".

Stop scaremongering.

[SecretFly]

Fun fact. Alex Salmond and I share an alma mater, Linlithgow Academy.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And that's your going concern in this race!  Finally declared your interest....sly divil, Notch...a very sly divil.  And everyone knows I'm neutral on the side of William Wallace because I hung out for days outside his camp waiting for him to either go into or out of the mobile toilet cubicle.  Make sense of that if you will but its me bona fides for my opinions

[fa0019]

From my experience any fact the YES Campaign don't like is treated as "scaremongering".

Stop scaremongering.

Technically not scaremongering fly, more mud slinging.

Scaremongering is this saying "we're all doomed" like the chap in dad's army.

Thought twice about being a picky git mind... especially since you've come out suggesting you clubbed some ulster fan years back for giving you some lip in your final match as a pro!!!

[fa0019]

Fun fact. Alex Salmond and I share an alma mater, Linlithgow Academy.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And that's your going concern in this race!  Finally declared your interest....sly divil, Notch...a very sly divil.  And everyone knows I'm neutral on the side of William Wallace because I hung out for days outside his camp waiting for him to either go into or out of the mobile toilet cubicle.  Make sense of that if you will but its me bona fides for my opinions

Well if we're all going to name drop... hell I grew up in the same town as Darius Danesh. Impressed right??? I'll get my coat.

Soon we'll have someone claim they used to date Michelle McManus....shudder!!!!!!

[LordDowlais]

Well I am trying to convince the Scotts to stay with us, but it looks like I am failing badly.

Oh well at least I tried, God love a tryer.

I think you're on the winning side.  Chin up.

Unfortunatley I do not think there will be a winning side, the polls are too close, Scotland will be forever split in two after this. There will be bitterness for years to come from all corners of the UK, but mostly within Scotland.

[Notch]

Fun fact. Alex Salmond and I share an alma mater, Linlithgow Academy.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And that's your going concern in this race!  Finally declared your interest....sly divil, Notch...a very sly divil.  And everyone knows I'm neutral on the side of William Wallace because I hung out for days outside his camp waiting for him to either go into or out of the mobile toilet cubicle.  Make sense of that if you will but its me bona fides for my opinions

Well if we're all going to name drop... hell I grew up in the same town as Darius Danesh. Impressed right??? I'll get my coat.

Soon we'll have someone claim they used to date Michelle McManus....shudder!!!!!!

I heard Sin E had a small role in Braveheart when they were down filming in Wicklow... problem was he and Mel Gibson had divergent opinions and he ended up on the cutting room floor.

[fa0019]

Well I am trying to convince the Scotts to stay with us, but it looks like I am failing badly.

Oh well at least I tried, God love a tryer.

I think you're on the winning side.  Chin up.

Unfortunatley I do not think there will be a winning side, the polls are too close, Scotland will be forever split in two after this. There will be bitterness for years to come from all corners of the UK, but mostly within Scotland.

Na if we stay together things will calm down. It will be like a lions tour again...

6N - Welsh fans, I hate those English C***s.

Lions -  Welsh fans, God save those marvellous Englishman.

Feel free to swap English with Welsh, Irish and once every 12 years or so... Scottish.

[fa0019]

Fun fact. Alex Salmond and I share an alma mater, Linlithgow Academy.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And that's your going concern in this race!  Finally declared your interest....sly divil, Notch...a very sly divil.  And everyone knows I'm neutral on the side of William Wallace because I hung out for days outside his camp waiting for him to either go into or out of the mobile toilet cubicle.  Make sense of that if you will but its me bona fides for my opinions

Well if we're all going to name drop... hell I grew up in the same town as Darius Danesh. Impressed right??? I'll get my coat.

Soon we'll have someone claim they used to date Michelle McManus....shudder!!!!!!

I heard Sin E had a small role in Braveheart when they were down filming in Wicklow... problem was he and Mel Gibson had divergent opinions and he ended up on the cutting room floor.

Did Sin e offer to take him down to his local synagogue???

[Geordie]

What will happen regarding passports etc?

They would obviously need new ones. But would they be able to travel until those were created? How long would that take?

[SecretFly]

Fun fact. Alex Salmond and I share an alma mater, Linlithgow Academy.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And that's your going concern in this race!  Finally declared your interest....sly divil, Notch...a very sly divil.  And everyone knows I'm neutral on the side of William Wallace because I hung out for days outside his camp waiting for him to either go into or out of the mobile toilet cubicle.  Make sense of that if you will but its me bona fides for my opinions

Well if we're all going to name drop... hell I grew up in the same town as Darius Danesh. Impressed right??? I'll get my coat.

Soon we'll have someone claim they used to date Michelle McManus....shudder!!!!!!

I heard Sin E had a small role in Braveheart when they were down filming in Wicklow... problem was he and Mel Gibson had divergent opinions and he ended up on the cutting room floor.

And Mel was charged extra by Quantas for the ammount of files and paperwork Sin gave him to take home with him, proving Mel wrong on all counts.

But yes, I watched Mel for many glorious sunny days, waiting patiently for him to use a very pronounced mobile toilet unit perched on one treeless hill ...all alone.  It was either Tom Baker or Mel I expected to go into it.  But in all my days watching proceedings, nobody ever used it.  Nobody.

[LordDowlais]

Well I am trying to convince the Scotts to stay with us, but it looks like I am failing badly.

Oh well at least I tried, God love a tryer.

I think you're on the winning side.  Chin up.

Unfortunatley I do not think there will be a winning side, the polls are too close, Scotland will be forever split in two after this. There will be bitterness for years to come from all corners of the UK, but mostly within Scotland.

Na if we stay together things will calm down. It will be like a lions tour again...

6N - Welsh fans, I hate those English C***s.

Lions -  Welsh fans, God save those marvellous Englishman.

Feel free to swap English with Welsh, Irish and once every 12 years or so... Scottish.

I hope so I realy do, as much as I love the country, evertime I go to Glasgow,it's bad enough with the Rangers and Celtic rivalries up there, I wouldn't want to go up there and see a YES and NO rivalry, where there are pubs for the YES people and pubs for the NO people, its the same in Edinburgh between Hibs and Hearts.

I really hope you are right what ever the outcome, I hope I can still enjoy Scotland as much as I do now.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

It's not an easy choice to make. I guess that's why some people are voting with their hearts and others with their heads.

Having family from all over the UK (a dad from Wales, 2 Uncles and an Aunt from England and all their sons daughters and my neices and nephews) the decision is made much harder.

Lets just pretend for one minute everything Salmond promises comes to pass, we become Rich, Wealthy etc.


Years from now, my Godson who lives in Hull or my Nephew who lives in Sheffield or my Pensionable Aunty who lives in Newcastle could ask me the question:

"Why did you leave us behind? Why did you take all the wealth and natural resources with you and abandon the rest of us?"

What am I supposed to say?

Tough toleys? It was my Right? We were under the oppression of Westminster for too long?

This is where the Nationalist argument breaks down. I want a fairer society with oppertunities for all, not just those who live in Scotland.

Tis a lovely thought, Radge, but you can influence the one and not the other

[SecretFly]

Millennium Stadium is far more scary for an English man than Glasgow headbutters talking politics.

It's the DaffodilCowboy hat crowd that are the real enemy of Union!

[quinsforever]

Nah. MS is fine. The Welsh love rugby more than they hate the English. I had the misfortune to be at MS 2 years ago when we got stuffed. And the Welsh fans were all keen to chat

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

The man responsible for taking the UK into the largest financial disaster in near on a century?! I'm not sure that I'd want to quote him on anything tbh

[SecretFly]

Nah. MS is fine. The Welsh love rugby more than they hate the English. I had the misfortune to be at MS 2 years ago when we got stuffed. And the Welsh fans were all keen to chat  

That was only the ones in front of you...the decoys.  You were lucky that day...there was a growing shadow of red crawling up behind you and from underneath you and from up above.  Wasn't it lucky you needed a piddle and made a quick spin for the Gents.  The Gents saved you that day, Quins.

[fa0019]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

The man responsible for taking the UK into the largest financial disaster in near on a century?!  I'm not sure that I'd want to quote him on anything tbh

He was the captain of the ship sure but how much he was to blame is contentious and lets be honest. His model of rescue was lauded around the world and repeated everywhere.

He is to blame for not setting aside funds in the good years yet the crash would have happened. The only difference is that how much we had to pay subsequently.

[HammerofThunor]

Hammerofthunor you obviously don't care about the Union but don't act all high and mighty. No one is stopping Scotland making their own decision.

Voting with your heart is right? Completely disagree. You have to step back and take emotion out of it.

Braveheart mentality from the Yes faction is far too apparent and the Irish want to jump in on the action too.

I don't care about union. I have no doubts whatsoever that rUK will continue to have strong links with Scotland, just as it maintains strong links with Ireland. Lot's of history (most of it fighting each don't forget, but we all like a good ruck) that won't just disappear. You don't appear sad that they may leave, you see peed off that they may leave. There is the difference. I don't have a problem with people being sad about. I don't have a problem with people being angree if it's done in an unfair way (relating to assets and debts). But the guff about them "turning their back on us" is guff.

I also haven't seen much, if any, "Braveheart mentality". None of this comes across as "**** you England", unless you're looking for that.

As for taking emotion out of it...you can't. It's pretty clear that both sides have proved their case with countless experts and business leaders. You believe the one you want to believe. Most people aren't able to accurately predict their future so they rely on others doing it (badly). And they're all biased in one way or another.

Here's a nice analogy for you, kicking to space in the corner in rugby. There's plenty of room there, you kick it so it lands 5 yards in from touch and 10 yards from the try line. Is it a good kick? Does it matter if it stays in play and a try is socred? What about if it's goes out for a throw in from the try line? What about if it bounces in goal and we back for a scrum in our half? Any of these can happen once it's left the boot even if the kicker did everything they could to make it a good kick. Depending on what happens will see commentators saying "good kick" or "poor kick" but that doesn't make sense. You see the space and go with your gut.

Now that applies for staying with the union as well as being independent. Staying with status quo in government does mean you stay with the status quo with your personal life. The UK might leave Europe. The UK might decide the get rid of it's nuclear weapons. Frakking may find loads of gas in England. We don't know. So way step back and try and take emotion out of it (by reading emotionally driven 'expert advice') when in 5 years, 10 years, 50 years all the predictions were completely wrong? So, yes, you can read forcasts, you can read the propaganda from both sides. But what makes you think that you can make an informed decision from that? Most just use it to confirm their own gut anyway.

[beshocked]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

The man responsible for taking the UK into the largest financial disaster in near on a century?!  I'm not sure that I'd want to quote him on anything tbh

Completely agree.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

The man responsible for taking the UK into the largest financial disaster in near on a century?!  I'm not sure that I'd want to quote him on anything tbh

When last I looked Asbo it was Mr Salmond who encouraged RBS to take over ABN Amro

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/revealed-salmond-s-support-for-goodwin-over-disastrous-rbs-deal-1.1046662

Gordon Brown had no option but to take over RBS with UK taxpayer money and thus being at the helm when the ship started to sink.

I again ask was the Prime Minister supposed to stand by idle whilst one of the biggest banks in the UK went down the toilet?

Millions of homes and businesses were at stake. Would you or Beshocked advise was the best course of action?

[HammerofThunor]

What will happen regarding passports etc?

They would obviously need new ones. But would they be able to travel until those were created? How long would that take?

The Irish born before Ireland became independent maintain UK citizenship. I'd imagine it would be the same for the Scottish, so they would be able to keep their passport.

[Geordie]

Ah ok thanks Hammer

[Sin é]

MANAGEMENT - there's absolutely no way, never, not ever, ever, ever there'll be a pay rise or more family friendly working hours /practices this year

UNION REPS - Oh, OK sorry to have troubled you, there'll be no negotiations

This is not about trade unions getting equal rights for their workers, this is about another country allowing another use their currency, it's a little different from getting an extra tea break and 3.5% on your hourly pay.

I am just using the example to illustrate that parties start from differing viewpoints when negotiations start. As was pointed out earlier, Rev Ian Paisley's initial start point was NEVER !!! In the end he and McGuinness worked together and McGuinness counted him a friend  

Yes, ok I think we have found some middle ground, but it's easy to say, ah they'll never do that to us, but THEY could, and you would need a very good get out of jail card to counteract it, and for me the YES campaign have not even thought of what could happen if Westminster stick to their guns. There are lot's of incidents like this in the YES campaign and not once have they turned around to the Scottish public and said, "Dont worry if such and such happens, we have this plan in place for it", the truth is they do not have a plan, Alex Salmon is twisting the minds of the everyday Scottish person by beating the nationalism drum, he is getting half the population all wound up in a patriotic sense of fury without telling them about the rough seas ahead if the UK does not give them what HE wants, he has his own agenda, he always has, and I want the everyday Scottish person to realise this because I care.

You need a devious b**stard with conviction to argue your case when dealing with Westminster. Great quote about our devious b**stard De Valera.

Lloyd George claimed that negotiating with de Valera “was like sitting on a merry-go-round and trying to catch up with the one in front.” He also famously said that negotiating with de Valera was ‘like trying to pick up mercury with a fork’ to which de Valera replied, ‘why doesn’t he use a spoon?’

[SecretFly]

There is also the possibility of dual citizenship for anyone who wants it I'm sure. You know, the theory of screw two nations equally for the benefits received from both

I have a relative who never knows when to use their Irish or American passport. Irish one for.................. iffy areas. American one for duty free shopping.

[Sin é]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

The man responsible for taking the UK into the largest financial disaster in near on a century?!  I'm not sure that I'd want to quote him on anything tbh

When last I looked Asbo it was Mr Salmond who encouraged RBS to take over ABN Amro

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/revealed-salmond-s-support-for-goodwin-over-disastrous-rbs-deal-1.1046662

Gordon Brown had no option but to take over RBS with UK taxpayer money and thus being at the helm when the ship started to sink.

I again ask was the Prime Minister supposed to stand by idle whilst one of the biggest banks in the UK went down the toilet?

Millions of homes and businesses were at stake. Would you or Beshocked advise was the best course of action?

It was the Bank of England's responsibility. They messed up. Wasn't the ball set rolling by Northern Rock anyway?

[quinsforever]

Hammerofthunor you obviously don't care about the Union but don't act all high and mighty. No one is stopping Scotland making their own decision.

Voting with your heart is right? Completely disagree. You have to step back and take emotion out of it.

Braveheart mentality from the Yes faction is far too apparent and the Irish want to jump in on the action too.

I don't care about union. I have no doubts whatsoever that rUK will continue to have strong links with Scotland, just as it maintains strong links with Ireland. Lot's of history (most of it fighting each don't forget, but we all like a good ruck) that won't just disappear.  You don't appear sad that they may leave, you see peed off that they may leave. There is the difference.  I don't have a problem with people being sad about. I don't have a problem with people being angree if it's done in an unfair way (relating to assets and debts).  But the guff about them "turning their back on us" is guff.

I also haven't seen much, if any, "Braveheart mentality".  None of this comes across as "**** you England", unless you're looking for that.

As for taking emotion out of it...you can't.  It's pretty clear that both sides have proved their case with countless experts and business leaders.  You believe the one you want to believe.  Most people aren't able to accurately predict their future so they rely on others doing it (badly). And they're all biased in one way or another.

Here's a nice analogy for you, kicking to space in the corner in rugby. There's plenty of room there, you kick it so it lands 5 yards in from touch and 10 yards from the try line. Is it a good kick? Does it matter if it stays in play and a try is socred? What about if it's goes out for a throw in from the try line? What about if it bounces in goal and we back for a scrum in our half? Any of these can happen once it's left the boot even if the kicker did everything they could to make it a good kick.  Depending on what happens will see commentators saying "good kick" or "poor kick" but that doesn't make sense.  You see the space and go with your gut.

Now that applies for staying with the union as well as being independent.  Staying with status quo in government does mean you stay with the status quo with your personal life.  The UK might leave Europe. The UK might decide the get rid of it's nuclear weapons.  Frakking may find loads of gas in England. We don't know.  So way step back and try and take emotion out of it (by reading emotionally driven 'expert advice') when in 5 years, 10 years, 50 years all the predictions were completely wrong?  So, yes, you can read forcasts, you can read the propaganda from both sides. But what makes you think that you can make an informed decision from that? Most just use it to confirm their own gut anyway.

no, it's not guff. taking the oil, taking sterling, leaving the debt. that's not about positivity, entrepreneurialism and opportunity. that does not look classy or cool, it looks opportunistic. especially when its done on a wave of nationalism, threats and "this is our last chance to escape tory-westminster-elite" bandwagon.

Scots may prefer an independent Scotland, and i will be glad to be rid of the always-blame-westminster-and-the-english for our woes mentality. but make no mistake, it is a backwards step economically, educationally and politically for rUK and Scotland. Lets hope the the cultural feelgood factor in Scotland can buoy them sufficiently to outweigh these undisputed negatives.

[Notch]

have a relative who never knows when to use their Irish or American passport.  Irish one for.................. iffy areas.  American one for duty free shopping.

I would say there is quite a few people from NI who use British or Irish passports depending on where they are going as well. Having two passports is handy. You can have a 'clean' passport for going to the States, where you might be refused entry for having visited and spent time in certain countries.

[LordDowlais]

MANAGEMENT - there's absolutely no way, never, not ever, ever, ever there'll be a pay rise or more family friendly working hours /practices this year

UNION REPS - Oh, OK sorry to have troubled you, there'll be no negotiations

This is not about trade unions getting equal rights for their workers, this is about another country allowing another use their currency, it's a little different from getting an extra tea break and 3.5% on your hourly pay.

I am just using the example to illustrate that parties start from differing viewpoints when negotiations start. As was pointed out earlier, Rev Ian Paisley's initial start point was NEVER !!! In the end he and McGuinness worked together and McGuinness counted him a friend  

Yes, ok I think we have found some middle ground, but it's easy to say, ah they'll never do that to us, but THEY could, and you would need a very good get out of jail card to counteract it, and for me the YES campaign have not even thought of what could happen if Westminster stick to their guns. There are lot's of incidents like this in the YES campaign and not once have they turned around to the Scottish public and said, "Dont worry if such and such happens, we have this plan in place for it", the truth is they do not have a plan, Alex Salmon is twisting the minds of the everyday Scottish person by beating the nationalism drum, he is getting half the population all wound up in a patriotic sense of fury without telling them about the rough seas ahead if the UK does not give them what HE wants, he has his own agenda, he always has, and I want the everyday Scottish person to realise this because I care.

You need a devious b**stard with conviction to argue your case when dealing with Westminster. Great quote about our devious b**stard  De Valera.

Lloyd George claimed that negotiating with de Valera “was like sitting on a merry-go-round and trying to catch up with the one in front.” He also famously said that negotiating with de Valera was ‘like trying to pick up mercury with a fork’ to which de Valera replied, ‘why doesn’t he use a spoon?’

What the feck does any of that firstly mean, and secondly answer ? None of what you have said plugs any of the massive holes in the YES argument.

Actually, you sound just like the YES campaigners not really answering the questions being asked, but answering something.

[fa0019]

I have already voted Lord, the nature of my work neccesitated a postal vote.

I'm happy with the decision I have made.

The campaign has been more about personalities than facts.

The bulk of the Facts get shot down by Alex Salmond as scaremongering, westminster tory elitism.

However Gordon Brown a Kirkcaldy lad born and bred said it best.

"You can ignore some of the warnings some of the time, but you cannot ignore all of the warnings all of the time."

The man responsible for taking the UK into the largest financial disaster in near on a century?!  I'm not sure that I'd want to quote him on anything tbh

When last I looked Asbo it was Mr Salmond who encouraged RBS to take over ABN Amro

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/revealed-salmond-s-support-for-goodwin-over-disastrous-rbs-deal-1.1046662

Gordon Brown had no option but to take over RBS with UK taxpayer money and thus being at the helm when the ship started to sink.

I again ask was the Prime Minister supposed to stand by idle whilst one of the biggest banks in the UK went down the toilet?

Millions of homes and businesses were at stake. Would you or Beshocked advise was the best course of action?

It was the Bank of England's responsibility. They messed up.  Wasn't the ball set rolling by Northern Rock anyway?

How was it the BoE's fault?

They have no say in how a business runs itself. That's the government via regulation. The exposure that individual banks took up was/is not regulated by the BoE, rather government agencies.

The credit crunch would have happened regardless.

What would have made a difference was stricter government regulation  and also tighter fiscal policy in the good years, none of which were done. That was down to the government.

At least they were able to take control of their matters in house though. That is one thing I think Salmond can only dream about if Scotland votes yes and the next big recession arises say late 2020s/2030s????

[SecretFly]

Lord...I'll try this one more time and then I'll leave you in peace until..................... well, 15.40

But here goes.

Both sides are trying to seduce?  Yes?  I mean...........em.................  I can't use YES or else I'll be accused of trying to put YES on your lips................... so.........em, you agree?

Both sides are trying to seduce with.....arguments.  You agree?

One side uses arguments like "We is gonna get every blasted thing we want!  And we won't want for anything; and we have the oil that'll go for another thousand years at least; and the Pound is ours and safe and there'll be honey in the pots, oil in the barrels, wheat in the barns, chickens in the oven, Tories down there and all will be right with the world."  
That's their arguments.  None of it has to be true - it's a line, a seduction line, it's the 'buying you a drink' chatup routine.  It's courting.  It's a date.

Now.... the other side thinks Scotland is a fine looking bird but they want her for their own so they say "that other suitor is much too slick and syrupy.  Maybe this girl likes a more straight-talking guy who is a bit rough and mean.  Some ladies like that kinda manly growl."
So they say "You're not going to get anything.  The oil ain't worth another day's talk and will last less than another day anyway; the pound is ours to keep from you; there's not enough of you to defend yourselves, even from us if we wanted to take yis back, and look................. we love you lots, will make you suffer lots if you reject us...and do'ya wanta go to the cinema with us?"
They're all just seduction gigs from both sides.  Neither of them have to be true.  All they want is that kiss and cuddle - and will say anything to get it.

[Sponsored content]