Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread V - The Fun Continues

[IanBru]

First topic message reminder :

Banter through the ages:

https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
https://www.606v2.com/t53119-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iii
https://www.606v2.com/t54519-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iv

Well friends, the pre-season has come and gone, now things get real.

A. Edinburgh Rugby


1. Pre-Season

Edinburgh 10-11 Leicester Tigers
Edinburgh 21-15 Newcastle Falcons

2. Results
Munster 13-14 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 13-14 Connacht
Ospreys 62-13 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 20-20 Scarlets
Ulster 30-0 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 24-10 Newport Gwent Dragons
Bordeaux-Bègles 13-15 Edinburgh

3. Upcoming Fixtures

Friday 24 Oct 2014 - 19:45 (TBC)
Lyon   (H)   -   European Rugby Challenge Cup

B. Glasgow Warriors


1. Pre-Season Results
Glasgow Warriors 23-24 Harlequins
London Scottish 19-38 Glasgow Warriors

2. Results
Glasgow Warriors 22-20 Leinster
Cardiff Blues 12-33 Glasgow Warriors
Newport Gwent Dragons 13-33 Glasgow Warriors
Glasgow Warriors 39 - 21 Connacht
Benetton Treviso 23-40 Glasgow Warriors
Ulster 29-9 Glasgow Warriors


3. Upcoming Fixtures

Sat 18 Oct 2014 - 15:15 (Live on BT Sport 2)
Bath   (H)   -   European Rugby Champions Cup

Sat 25 Oct 2014 - 18:15 (Live on Sky Sports)
Montpellier Herault   (A)   -   European Rugby Champions Cup

Any and all discussion of things rugby-related is welcome. Restaurant recommendations are openly sought. Introductions to eligible young people would be fantastic. Bullying, jingoism, and wang-measuring is not on.

We need to move forwards not backwards, upwards not forwards, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

[George Carlin]

Nice to see Austin Lockington left his Noel Coward play long enough to score.

I think if Glasgow had kept their first XV on, that would have been a very ugly scoreline by the end.

It does sadden me how much talent isn't playing each week, though. Spinks, Bordill and Ashe really are brilliant young players. I guess their time will come but you look at the likes of Gilchrist and Ickle Jon and you just wonder how they would get on right now if they were let loose.

[InjuredYetAgain]

Woah, everyone. Sod the A game. Hold on a sec and let's back track a bit.
Can someone confirm that 21st has left? If so, I am pleased to say that I will be back frequenting these boards again

[RDW]

Did a bit of editing IYA

Well he said he's left...

[InjuredYetAgain]

You are power-mad RDW.

[RDW]

More chat like that and I'll order GC to ban you!

[RDW]

You at the game DoT?

Yeah, Just left to collect the kids. It's 30-0 to Glasgow, Maitland scored a cracker before being replaced.

Did you make much of Alan Dell from what you saw?

Still got high hopes for him, but he's just an infant in propping terms.

[funnyExiledScot]

I thought our scrum was pretty decent against Munster with Andress at tighthead but Solomons seems to have gone back to Nel pretty quickly, and I notice that with Nel and Dickinson we appear to have struggled somewhat (although Solomons was quick to blame the ref in the Connacht match).

Anyone know anything about where Stuart McInally is in his development as a hooker? Hilterbrand isn't pulling up trees and Ford can't play every fixture, plus I'm not convinced that Cochrane will be anything more than a journeyman. Really want to see Rambo given a crack at the 2 jersey. He'd be awesome in the loose.

[VinceWLB]

If the Glasgow's forum is anything to go by Blaauw suffered a nasty knee injury so i guess we will soon find out what Allan Dell is really made of.
So far i have liked very much what i have seen from Sutherland, lots of promise imo. Both are 22 which is young for a prop but not that young anymore by today's standards, as we see more and more young props developing very early on.

[RDW]

I think we haven't seen McInally yet because he's injured. Hilterbrand throws himself about the pitch, but his lineout throwing has been rubbish from day 1.

It will remain to be seen whether a converted back rower throws better...

Shame to hear about Blaauw. He's no world beater but given we got rid of Alex Allan (a ridiculous decision), we're looking a bit short there now. Dickinson can't play every game, and Sutherland and Dell are very green.

[funnyExiledScot]

Sutherland did well pre-season and it's a shame that Solomons went straight for Dickinson without giving him a proper shot at the first games. Our best player so far this season has been Hamish Watson so it's clear that giving young form players a shot can pay off.

On the throwing, I'd say it remains to be seen whether a converted back rower can throw any worse!!

The Alex Allan decision is looking utterly bonkers, and really casts a big cloud over Solomons' judgment. Cross and Allan would have become our first choice props this season in my opinion. Both SQ as well.

[RDW]

Absolutely.  Glasgow have shown that it's not just good enough to have 1 top class player in each position - you need two or even 3.

If we had Allan and Cross we could rotate Dickinson and Nel throughout the season without any drop in quality.  It would also mean the likes of Blaauw and Berghan would be for emergency use only.

Same with wing - we let Lee Jones go (OK, I've been his fiercest critic, and his form was awful when he left!) but then have to play scrum halfs and centres on the wing?

On that note, I see Nikki Walker is still on the squad list, but I'm pretty sure I read he'd been released.

[VinceWLB]

Someone mentioned on the Embra forum it was Allan's choice to go to Glasgow, so this is not AS 100% fault but still..
Jury's still out about Allan's scrummaging abilities but so far from what i have seen he looks to be the best prop in Scotland in the loose.
Cross' decision is bonkers and leaves a sour taste but Andress is looking good and i would have him ahead of Nel in a heartbeat, as the latter has looked poor both in the loose and more importantly at scrum time.

I too can't wait to see McInally at hooker, lets be honest his throwing can't be any worse than Hilterbrand!

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm not sure we should just let our young and talented players move just because they want to. Seems an odd decision for him as well with Grant and Reid at Glasgow. At Edinburgh he'd have had a decent chance of becoming first choice, whereas at Glasgow I'd be surprised if he makes the matchday squad if others are fit.

RDW - on Lee Jones he's done really well to recover his form at Glasgow. Their style of play (i.e. actually showing up and playing rugby) certainly benefits a player like Jones who thrives on attacking ball. The way Edinburgh are playing at the moment you could have Savea and Folau on the wings and they'd look dreadful. I am desperate to see Farndale and Hoyland in Edinburgh colours this season. We need to start getting our young SQ wingers onto the pitch. They'd surely do no worse than SH-Q, Beard and McLennan in those roles.

I'm starting to lose faith in Solomons. We don't seem to be getting anywhere. He isn't really promoting SQ players, and we aren't seeing result improving. I may be jumping the gun a bit here, we're only three games in, but I don't really like the style of play being coached and the players don't really seem to be enjoying their rugby either. Fingers crossed we can start to turn things around, because if we don't qualify for the top tier European competition this season I'd query Solomons' position.

[EWT Spoons]

Started a thread for the Edinburgh game

Edin v Scarlets

[EWT Spoons]

FES I was thinking something similar around Solomans, but figured it might be too early to judge. Sure last season was pretty terrible and this season seems to be worse, but….nope I’ve lost my point.

I suppose we did have the result against a Munster B team, and we did seem to have a style of play, sure it’s not worked since, but at least the players in that game seemed to know what was being asked of them.

He did say that a pre-season would make all the difference, so far the jury is well and truly out on if that difference is actually a good thing, but 3 games might be too early to say for sure.

However, I’m in total agreement that we don’t seem to be getting better, and a lot of the players he’s brought in are (based on their performances so far) terrible, especially when you compare them to players he’s let go.

[VinceWLB]

I'm not sure we should just let our young and talented players move just because they want to. Seems an odd decision for him as well with Grant and Reid at Glasgow. At Edinburgh he'd have had a decent chance of becoming first choice, whereas at Glasgow I'd be surprised if he makes the matchday squad if others are fit.

This is true but with Dickinson, Blaauw and the early signing of Dell, he was probably seeing himself blocked at Edinburgh too, remember Lewis Niven received a very poor treatment early on last season too with Blaauw getting ahead of him without having to prove himself.

I don't think AS is a bad coach but he does seem to try to impose his gamestyle (which i like personally) to players rather than adapting a gamestyle to the players at his disposal.
Last sunday was a disgrace and it wasn't Solomons who missed tackles left and right, the team never played on song, for every good tackle or good carry there was 5 half arsed attempt at a tackle and 3 poor passes.

[George Carlin]

I'm not sure we should just let our young and talented players move just because they want to. Seems an odd decision for him as well with Grant and Reid at Glasgow. At Edinburgh he'd have had a decent chance of becoming first choice, whereas at Glasgow I'd be surprised if he makes the matchday squad if others are fit.

RDW - on Lee Jones he's done really well to recover his form at Glasgow. Their style of play (i.e. actually showing up and playing rugby) certainly benefits a player like Jones who thrives on attacking ball. The way Edinburgh are playing at the moment you could have Savea and Folau on the wings and they'd look dreadful. I am desperate to see Farndale and Hoyland in Edinburgh colours this season. We need to start getting our young SQ wingers onto the pitch. They'd surely do no worse than SH-Q, Beard and McLennan in those roles.

I'm starting to lose faith in Solomons. We don't seem to be getting anywhere. He isn't really promoting SQ players, and we aren't seeing result improving. I may be jumping the gun a bit here, we're only three games in, but I don't really like the style of play being coached and the players don't really seem to be enjoying their rugby either. Fingers crossed we can start to turn things around, because if we don't qualify for the top tier European competition this season I'd query Solomons' position.

I think that we need to give Pappy the standard measure of time to give him a reason to change his current set up. Unfortunately, all timescales are truncated and I think that having had a full pre-season, he now needs to have a run of say 5-6 matches where he does exactly what he wants, which means he then has the imperative to act if it isn't working.

There's nothing we can do about the fact that out of the 7 specialist centres on Edinburgh's books, only 2 (Scott and Dean) are SQ. However, on the wing for example, Farndale, Fife, Hoyland, Visser, MacFarland and Michael Tait are all SQ and at least as good as the likes of Brett Thompson so I'm going to be bloody annoyed if the latter is preferred. I also think that any of the players I have mentioned above deserve a shot in the centre if Beard, Dominguez and Strauss aren't getting it done (which they aren't at present). We know that Fife is happy enough in the midfield and he's one the most promising backs Edinburgh has.

You always have to circle back to the point that Old Man River just wants a winning team and clearly bringing on young Scottish players is, at best, co-incidental to this purpose.

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

You at the game DoT?

Yeah, Just left to collect the kids. It's 30-0 to Glasgow, Maitland scored a cracker before being replaced.

Did you make much of Alan Dell from what you saw?

Still got high hopes for him, but he's just an infant in propping terms.

Never really noticed him to be perfectly honest, wasn't paying too much attention to the Edinburgh team. It was such a one sided 1/2 that it was difficult to take much from, when judging Edinburgh as at a team, certainly from a fans point of view. They never got in the Glasgow 22 when I was watching, and from what I heard the only time they did was when the scored at the end.

[cakeordeath]

On slightly different topic from names derived from Famous Five books. Does anyone know when Tyrone Holmes is up in front of the panel?

[JonnyEdinburgh]

Even further off topic. I don't suppose anyone knows if Edinburgh will send me a new season ticket, having lost it alongside my wallet at the weekend? I tried calling a few times but eventually settled on sending them an email yesterday, no reply yet. I'm getting a bit twitchy at the thought that I paid £180 just to watch that Connacht match

[George Carlin]

Nope - can't find in on the website. Interestingly if you Google relevant terms, you see that Holmes was also sent off in Currie Cup rugby for stamping.

Rumours are unconfirmed that a copy of a manual entitled 'Attitude Problem My Arse' by someone called "S.W. Hogg" from Melrose was found in Holmes' changing bag as he was leaving the stadium

[RDW]

There's nothing we can do about the fact that out of the 7 specialist centres on Edinburgh's books, only 2 (Scott and Dean) are SQ. However, on the wing for example, Farndale, Fife, Hoyland, Visser, MacFarland and Michael Tait are all SQ and at least as good as the likes of Brett Thompson so I'm going to be bloody annoyed if the latter is preferred. .

Without being picky, Tait is also a (very average) centre. Newcastle fans weren't exactly sad to see him go.

I do agree with your sentiment though.

[cakeordeath]

Nope - can't find in on the website. Interestingly if you Google relevant terms, you see that Holmes was also sent off in Currie Cup rugby for stamping.

Rumours are unconfirmed that a copy of a manual entitled 'Attitude Problem My Arse' by someone called "S.W. Hogg" from Melrose was found in Holmes' changing bag as he was leaving the stadium

[RDW]

Even further off topic.  I don't suppose anyone knows if Edinburgh will send me a new season ticket, having lost it alongside my wallet at the weekend?  I tried calling a few times but eventually settled on sending them an email yesterday, no reply yet.  I'm getting a bit twitchy at the thought that I paid £180 just to watch that Connacht match  

You'd like to think they could just cancel your original card and issue a new one.

They are pretty good at responding usually so keep at them - Tweet them if you're on Twitter.

[funnyExiledScot]

Agree with RDW, they are usually pretty responsive on the season ticket front (there are so few of us you can get a pretty bespoke service).

Perhaps pretend that you want to buy one, and once you have them on the phone explain the situation.

[JonnyEdinburgh]

Thanks a lot guys, put my mind at ease a bit - will keep chasing it up.

[IanBru]

Jonny, if they're anything like Glasgow (and for ticket T&Cs I'd assume they would be), there will be a specific provision for lost cards. If I recall, they guarantee to replace it.

[tigertattie]

Can't you say you've lost it and then ask for your money back?

You can then go to some Prem 3 matches for a fraction of the cost but the standard of rugby being played will be higher!

[JonnyEdinburgh]

Can't you say you've lost it and then ask for your money back?

You can then go to some Prem 3 matches for a fraction of the cost but the standard of rugby being played will be higher!

not a bad idea!

My wallet contained my driving license (with address) and I dropped it outside my house so it looks like someone engaged the "finders keepers" rule rather than returning it. After Sundays match when reflecting on that cretin potentially making use of the season ticket all I could think was - it'll serve him bloody right.

[funnyExiledScot]

Can't you say you've lost it and then ask for your money back?

You can then go to some school girl under-12 touch rugbyPrem 3 matches for a fraction of the cost but the standard of rugby being played will be higher!

Amended for the sake of accuracy.

[jimbopip]

Can't you say you've lost it and then ask for your money back?

You can then go to some school girl under-12 touch rugbyPrem 3 matches for a fraction of the cost but the standard of rugby being played will be higher!

Amended for the sake of accuracy.

But your chances of being arrested rise exponentially.

[funnyExiledScot]

Typical Weegie - lowering the tone

[InjuredYetAgain]

Edinburgh's biggest problem is a lack of game changers. The players seem decent enough but you look around and ask where that spark of inspiration is coming from.
The Weeg have Matawalu, Nakajory, Strauss or even Johnny Gray all of who could do something to lead by example.
What have we got? A couple of ball boys who can retrieve the oppositions latest conversation from 16 rows back in the stand in record time

[funnyExiledScot]

IYA - agreed. We really do lack spark without Matt Scott (12) in the backline. Visser can score individual tries, but we aren't even giving him the chance these days with our gameplan of humping the ball in the air or running into the opposition at every opportunity. There's no-one looking to do anything off the cuff, chance an offload or increase the tempo. It's all so scripted and predictable. Kennedy and Hildalgo-Clyne are both attacking scrum halves how like to play at pace and have an eye for the gap. Box kicking ponderous possession does not play to their strengths.

[TJ]

A lot of injuries have hindered Edinburgh but it would appear IMO that leadership is the real issue. I credit kellock for a large part of the turnaround in Glasgows fortunes - he helped make them a team. Edinburgh need a real good captain and some strong leadership

[RDW]

Sam H-C actually said in an interview he wants to do more tap and goes but has been told not to because we are meant to be playing a more set piece orientated game.


That's going well!

[funnyExiledScot]

A lot of injuries have hindered Edinburgh but it would appear IMO that leadership is the real issue.  I credit kellock for a large part of the turnaround in Glasgows fortunes - he helped make them a team.  Edinburgh need a real good captain and some strong leadership

You mean even better than Coman and/or Strauss??

[funnyExiledScot]

Sam H-C actually said in an interview he wants to do more tap and goes but has been told not to because we are meant to be playing a more set piece orientated game.


That's going well!

Well if that's the case then perhaps he should follow Alex Allan and demand a move to Glasgow (who are a bit short at scrum half). It's a bit like having Tim Visser in your side and asking him only to tackle and chase long balls......

[TJ]

A lot of injuries have hindered Edinburgh but it would appear IMO that leadership is the real issue.  I credit kellock for a large part of the turnaround in Glasgows fortunes - he helped make them a team.  Edinburgh need a real good captain and some strong leadership

You mean even better than Coman and/or Strauss??

Not seen much sign of leadership from either - the team looks like there is no leader. Kellock was inspirational for Glasgow who is doing the role for Edinburgh?

[RDW]

Sam H-C actually said in an interview he wants to do more tap and goes but has been told not to because we are meant to be playing a more set piece orientated game.


That's going well!

Well if that's the case then perhaps he should follow Alex Allan and demand a move to Glasgow (who are a bit short at scrum half). It's a bit like having Tim Visser in your side and asking him only to tackle and chase long balls......

Well our current tactics don't seem to be getting him to do much else!

[Argybargy]

Sam H-C actually said in an interview he wants to do more tap and goes but has been told not to because we are meant to be playing a more set piece orientated game.


That's going well!

I was somewhat pleased to see Laidlaw move on as I (incorrectly?) assumed that his pointless/endless/ineffectual box kicking was his idea.

Seems it was really part of a grand Embra plan to give the ball to opposition, get them to kick for territory and then lose the lineout on the 10m line. A modern twist on the set piece.

[George Carlin]

I am sure I read that official Pappy Tactics were to kick the arse off the ball if you received it in your own half at the beginning of a new set of phases. How depressing must that be to have to adhere to?

[tigertattie]

won't be long until Edinburgh Rugby Football Club drops the "rugby" from the name!

[EWT Spoons]

Not sure he can justify this, also some of the comments are interesting.  One saying the difference between the group of Edinburgh and Glasgow players was obvious in terms of looking united at the A game.  Also that Scott is soon to be out the door in favour of a South African forwards coach.

CLEARLY “a bad day at the office” doesn’t begin to describe our feelings coming off the pitch after the 62-13 defeat by Ospreys on Sunday. Our set piece, in the form of our lineout, didn’t function well. We’ll be working hard on that this week and hope it will be the cornerstone of our performance against Scarlets on Friday.

Our first three matches of this Guinness Pro12 – against Munster, Connacht and Ospreys – have underlined the importance of the set piece to the game. It doesn’t matter if you’re attacking or exiting from your own half, it’s a key component in the game.
If you look at the scrum, for example, the way I see it, it’s not just one person who makes a difference, it’s the collective unit. We’ve been working all pre-season on it and I think we’ve seen a massive improvement from where we were last season. I was particularly happy with the scrum in the game against Leicester Tigers. I don’t especially want to highlight one person but if you look at Rory Sutherland, three months before that game he was playing for Gala in the Premiership. For him to come in and perform against a full-strength Leicester pack, it shows that if he can work with the other seven players as a collective unit, that has given him confidence.
I think we took heart right from the start that we have got a good scrum and it is a weapon in the game. That and the driving maul – it’s hard to stop if you’ve got dominance through these set pieces.
So we took that confidence through to the Newcastle game. The weather conditions at Hawick made it a difficult night and there were more scrums but, on the whole, I felt we took another step forward there.
To go to Munster and do what we did there, we had complete set-piece dominance in that game and probably didn’t get as much reward as we should have, looking back through the video. On the whole, that gave us a good platform to play from and gave us the result.
Then the following week was really frustrating. After the big step forward we’d taken in that Munster game, we just came up against a different scenario against Connacht. Frustrating to say the least. Looking back over the match with the players, touch judges and referees, we did have dominance in the game and we didn’t really get reward for that. It’s maddening for a coach and for the players as well. We’ve learned from that and realise that we need to adjust on the field in these situations, to try different techniques that allow us to gain confidence without giving free away kicks and penalties.
On the back of the good work done earlier then, this past Sunday at Liberty Stadium was a huge disappointment. Our lineout didn’t function in the opening half which was frustrating, as we had good field position, and didn’t allow us to put pressure on the Ospreys.
We’ll keep working on the things we’re doing, without question. I think we’re going in the right direction and the players believe in what we’re trying to do. I can’t highlight enough that you need a strong set piece to play from and attack from. My job is to produce that platform for the team to play from.
We had a good start to the season with the lineout but the thing we’ve always got to work on is our drive. It’s similar to the scrum once it’s set up – it’s a dominance you can get in the game, having a good driving lineout. If you break it down, you’ve got good throwers in the team and you’ve got good lineout callers. I can highlight Gilcho [Grant Gilchrist] here. Halfway through last season he’d never really called the lineout, he was more a front jumper. We gave him that leadership role and he really developed through the end of last season, working with Izak van der Westhuizen when he was here. Gilcho really took to that role and I think it highlighted the first signs of the leadership role that he has subsequently taken on both within Edinburgh and going on to captain Scotland. That was a first step in his development, in that respect.
We’ve been working hard on our defensive lineout as well, especially stopping mauls. We’ve been pleased with that the first few weeks of the season and it was disappointing we lost that one against Connacht at the end of the game.
Looking at this week’s A game, it gave players like Ben [Toolis] and others that we’ve not seen fully yet, and boys coming back from injury, a great chance to show what they can do. It’s high level – just below the pro club – and against Glasgow, so there was no better game for these boys to have the opportunity to show what they’re made of.

Edinburgh going in right direction

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Following on from that Scotsman article, this comment (not mine) makes interesting reading, of course can't take any of it as gospel.

I got to the A game at Stirling very early. The difference between Glasgow and Edinburgh was obvious well before the start and the gap just got wider as things progressed.

Glasgow arrived as one - into the dressing room, onto the park for a team huddle in centre field, then back in. Pre-match meeting called, referee and touch judges, front rows and scrum-halves - Glasgow there ready, no Edinburgh.

Edinburgh arrived in dribs and drabs, no leadership obvious.

Glasgow warm-up, far more coherent and united.

Game - apart from the Toolis twins doing well at the lines-out, Edinburgh were second all over the park. The Edinburgh try would not have been scored had Glasgow not been a man down with Lee Jones sin-binned (wrongly - terrible decision btw).

When Zander Fargerson, an 18-year-old prop, can step-up from Glasgow Hawks 2nd XV to produce the storming wee cameo he did, and scrummage so well, merely underlined - the only place Edinburgh, as a club, are going, is backwards - at a rate of knots.

The pick of the Edinburgh Saffers on duty was Austin Lockington - and he plays for Melrose.

[EWT Spoons]

Thats the comment I was referring to as well, not mine either.

[tigertattie]

There is something wrong at Edinburgh. Something very wrong! It needs to be sorted out ASAP.

I don't know if it is the management, the coaching or the players. We're going backwards fast and it doesn't look like sorting itself any time soon!

[IanBru]

Think of this week as that dark point in 2011, sitting 24 points behind with 20 minutes left against Racing Metro. You did it then, and you'll pull it out of the fire on Friday as well!

Have faith, Eastern cousins!

Failing that, this always cheers me up.

[funnyExiledScot]

It's interesting that Steve Scott names Rory Sutherland as a key part of the pre-season matches given he was promptly dropped when the real stuff got started.

My feeling is that Solomons has picked the wrong individuals as his "leaders" within the squad. Coman and Strauss just don't look up to the job of being pro rugby players first and foremost, and it's impossible to have credibility as a leader if you don't deserve your place in the side in the first place.

I'm going to try and get to the game on Friday so I can watch more closely what is going on. There is no tangible justification for saying that Edinburgh rugby is moving in the right direction.

[George Carlin]

I see that Sherlock was suspended for a week for standing on Grabby Graberson. That's a tacit admission it shouldn't have been a red card in my one-eyed opinion.

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