Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread V - The Fun Continues

[IanBru]

First topic message reminder :

Banter through the ages:

https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
https://www.606v2.com/t53119-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iii
https://www.606v2.com/t54519-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iv

Well friends, the pre-season has come and gone, now things get real.

A. Edinburgh Rugby


1. Pre-Season

Edinburgh 10-11 Leicester Tigers
Edinburgh 21-15 Newcastle Falcons

2. Results
Munster 13-14 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 13-14 Connacht
Ospreys 62-13 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 20-20 Scarlets
Ulster 30-0 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 24-10 Newport Gwent Dragons
Bordeaux-Bègles 13-15 Edinburgh

3. Upcoming Fixtures

Friday 24 Oct 2014 - 19:45 (TBC)
Lyon   (H)   -   European Rugby Challenge Cup

B. Glasgow Warriors


1. Pre-Season Results
Glasgow Warriors 23-24 Harlequins
London Scottish 19-38 Glasgow Warriors

2. Results
Glasgow Warriors 22-20 Leinster
Cardiff Blues 12-33 Glasgow Warriors
Newport Gwent Dragons 13-33 Glasgow Warriors
Glasgow Warriors 39 - 21 Connacht
Benetton Treviso 23-40 Glasgow Warriors
Ulster 29-9 Glasgow Warriors


3. Upcoming Fixtures

Sat 18 Oct 2014 - 15:15 (Live on BT Sport 2)
Bath   (H)   -   European Rugby Champions Cup

Sat 25 Oct 2014 - 18:15 (Live on Sky Sports)
Montpellier Herault   (A)   -   European Rugby Champions Cup

Any and all discussion of things rugby-related is welcome. Restaurant recommendations are openly sought. Introductions to eligible young people would be fantastic. Bullying, jingoism, and wang-measuring is not on.

We need to move forwards not backwards, upwards not forwards, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

[Weegie Wizard]

Edinburgh Rugby team v Ulster, Friday 3 October, Kingspan Stadium, Ravenhill, kick-off 7.35pm

15 Greig Tonks
14 Jack Cuthbert
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser
10 Phil Burleigh
9 Sean Kennedy

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Ross Ford
3 John Andress
4 Anton Bresler
5 Grant Gilchrist
6 Mike Coman (captain)
7 Roddy Grant
8 Cornell Du Preez

Substitutes

16 James Hilterbrand
17 Allan Dell
18 Willem Nell
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Tomas Leonardi
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Tom Heathcote
23 Nick McLennan

[Weegie Wizard]

Decent pack but Edinburgh must have some serious injury problems out wide. Anticipating a strong endorsement of the centre pairing

[funnyExiledScot]

I posted on this in the match thread. Good pack but some rank awful decisions in the backs.

[jimbopip]

Cuthbert is a better full-back than winger but gets shifted because Tonks is a better full-back than 10 so that Hurley might be able to show that he's not quite as bad at 10 as he is at centre. Heathcote must be loving this.

[InjuredYetAgain]

Jeez, that back line is so slow you could probably take the team photo of them when running without having any blurry images.
Ball up the jerseys for the forwards methinks.
Looking forward to seeing how Rory Sutherland gets on, though. He looks a big lad but, then again, so was Matthew Proudfoot.

[tigertattie]

When can we start saying Solomons selection policy is as daft as that of Rab C?

[cakeordeath]

Correct Cakey - but I think that the SRU are approaching this the right way. It's fashionable to be frothy about a new third team but it seems that the SRU are quite clear eyed about this and their priority is clearly the academies for now. Surely everyone knows by now that we're going to get a much better team in 10 years by paying all of Scottish schools PE teachers to coach rugby on Saturday mornings, rather than pouring dosh into a new professional franchise.

In my view there seems to be a massive dis join between clubs and schools, we need to align a club to n number of schools and follow the NZ system.

[InjuredYetAgain]

Changing tack a bit, there is an interesting article on BBC Alba about the 7s squad.
Anyone else agree that Colin Gregor is holding the team back? He lacks speed, can't tackle and looks like he is sleeping rough.
I just feel that his presence may intimidate some of the younger players who may be ready to assume the "playmaker" mantle.

Also had to chuckle when Scott Wight said something about playing 3 games each day. In my memory, on a Sunday two games is normally enough to find ourselves sitting in the stands knowing the days' work is done

[Argybargy]

When can we start saying Solomons selection policy is as daft as that of Rab C?

About 1 month ago. We're late.

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Changing tack a bit, there is an interesting article on BBC Alba about the 7s squad.
Anyone else agree that Colin Gregor is holding the team back? He lacks speed, can't tackle and looks like he is sleeping rough.
I just feel that his presence may intimidate some of the younger players who may be ready to assume the "playmaker" mantle.

Also had to chuckle when Scott Wight said something about playing 3 games each day. In my memory, on a Sunday two games is normally enough to find ourselves sitting in the stands knowing the days' work is done

Budgie (Gregor) has lost 1/2 a step he's not the 7s player he was.

[RDW]

Well in more positive news, Ayr player Robbie Ferguson is making his comeback tomorrow having been diagnosed with cancer just 6 months ago and going through chemo.

What a legend!

[EWT Spoons]

That's great news for the lad.

[InjuredYetAgain]

Lordy, I didn't even know he had been diagnosed.
Was he not being talked about as getting a pro contract too?
Either way, hats off to the guy

[George Carlin]

Fergusson always looked a bit like Ben Cairns to me - excellent young player. Wish him all the best. Ayr have some guy called Sean Maitland on he wing for them this weekend. Would be amazing to see him at Milbrae. I won't mention this to Mrs GC. She already fancies him more than me without seeing him in pink.

[InjuredYetAgain]

Is this Maitland fella a product of the club's youth policy. Good on them for developing local talent if he is
Seriously, though, I can't imagine how hard it must be for even a decent club player to have to contain Maitland.
That said, the pro props who play for club sides don't seem to make a humongous difference when you read the press reports

[jimbopip]

Fergusson always looked a bit like Ben Cairns to me - excellent young player. Wish him all the best. Ayr have some guy called Sean Maitland on he wing for them this weekend. Would be amazing to see him at Milbrae. I won't mention this to Mrs GC. She already fancies him more than me without seeing him in pink.

GC, does this mean she fancies him more than you do? Or she finds him more sexually alluring than she does yourself? I feel the Empsonian levels of ambiguity could cause no end of confusion in some of our pantaloons wearing eastern brethren.
Also, when did Buffy's mate give up grappling with the undead and become a prop?

[BigGee]

Just watching a recording of the London Scottish v Plymouth games. Lee Millar, playing at 13 scored 2 great tries and generally had a great game. If Edinburgh are looking for a 13 (who can also play 10) then they should have a good look at him. Jamie Stevenson also having a very good game at SH and looks capable of playing at a higher level as well.

With Bristol and Worcester kicking around in that league, I don't see them going up, but they should make play offs this year and if they continue this trajectory then they will be aiming for that in years to come. They are already a force to be reckoned with.

[justified sinner]

Nah, we'll just sign another useless Saffer, it's what Solomons does.

[BigGee]

Lee Millar, MoM and there were plenty candidates! Connor Braid came on as a second half sub and scored two tries. Looks a decent enough player but just hard to see how he is going to break into this Glasgow team. We are going to be decimated by international call ups at some stage in the season though, maybe we will need him then.

[madmaccas]

Just watching a recording of the London Scottish v Plymouth games. Lee Millar, playing at 13 scored 2 great tries and generally had a great game. If Edinburgh are looking for a 13 (who can also play 10) then they should have a good look at him. Jamie Stevenson also having a very good game at SH and looks capable of playing at a higher level as well.

Sod that. They go to Edinburgh and their careers will take a nosedive like every other SQ player there. They'd end up sitting on sidelines behind a load of 3rd rate SH journeymen. At least at LS they're getting regular game time and will help the team push on as you suggested. What would be a brave move would be for Vern Cotter to consider one of the LS players for the AI training squad. We're not exactly flush with 9's and 10's at the moment so why not!

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Just watching a recording of the London Scottish v Plymouth games. Lee Millar, playing at 13 scored 2 great tries and generally had a great game. If Edinburgh are looking for a 13 (who can also play 10) then they should have a good look at him. Jamie Stevenson also having a very good game at SH and looks capable of playing at a higher level as well.

Sod that. They go to Edinburgh and their careers will take a nosedive like every other SQ player there. They'd end up sitting on sidelines behind a load of 3rd rate SH journeymen. At least at LS they're getting regular game time and will help the team push on as you suggested. What would be a brave move would be for Vern Cotter to consider one of the LS players for the AI training squad. We're not exactly flush with 9's and 10's at the moment so why not!

Plymouth were miserable and would lose 50+ more weeks than not against in the PR0 12. Not saying that you can't pick players from the English 2nd Tier, but its difficult to evaluate players playing it completely different standard of competitions.

[RDW]

Some interesting comments from Peter Wright on the BBC

"Edinburgh are like the America of the Ryder Cup, Glasgow are the Europe," said Wright on BBC Radio Scotland's Sport Nation programme.

"Where Edinburgh are getting it wrong, is that they're playing a style of rugby that doesn't suit the players.

"I don't think the players like the way Alan Solomons is trying to play. He mentions all the players that are missing, but he never signed those players - all the guys he signed are the ones who played last night, and he's saying they're not in his top XV, so why sign these guys?

"As players, they can't come out and criticise the coach, because it'll affect them - he won't pick them.

"I don't think Alan Solomons is the type of guy you get on the wrong side of.

"I'm sure there's meetings going on in private where the players will get to air their views, and if anybody has the courage to stand up and actually say 'this is not working, it's not our style'.
"Until they address that, it's going to go from bad to worse."

He often sprouts some pish, but I think he's dead on here.  Solomons' tactics are A) not very good, B) archaic and C) not fitting for the players he's got.

We've got two livewire scrum half who are told to play a tactical, set-piece orientated game.  We have an absolutely buzzbomb of a 7 who, despite being relatively lightweight, is needing to play in a pack that has to play slow, laborious rugby.  We have a ball playing 12 (Hurly) and skillfull 10/15 (Tonks) and they are being told to hoof the ball into the air, or just run into people.  We have one of the most deadly finishers in the league on the wing (Visser) and he's barely seeing any ball, other than as a crash ball merchant.

How can Solomons honestly say they are good tactics?

From memory Omar is not only defence coach but our attack coach too - no wonder that's what our attacking threats come down to.

[RDW]

What is so frustrating is that I'm certain that if Watson, Kennedy, S-H-C and event Tonks, Hurly and Visser played in the Glasgow team, they'd do really well and push themselves into Scotland contention.

I'm not saying we should copy Glasgow's harum-scarum style of play, but for feck sake we need to do better than the massively limited gameplan he's got us doing just now.

[EWT Spoons]

Sorry to keep banging this drum, but I don’t see why we would want to keep him on till the end of the year, if nothing has changed by xmas.

As RDW calls out (along with Wright) the players aren’t playing a style that suits them, the ones he’s signed aren’t even capable of playing it either from the look of things, the team look totally demotivated, and if we are relying on Omar to coach defence and attack then clearly he’s not doing well with either of them.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Insipid is the best way to describe Edinburgh at the moment.

The team are playing tactics that don't suit them and it is completely ineffective.

I’m trying to avoid words like “bag of rancid excrement” but it’s hard to avoid them when that is what you are seeing day in day out.

Contrast it with the great unwashed and how arguably their reserve team smashed Treviso at home Edinburgh are in really bad shape. Solomans has taken a team who were bad and turned them into an utter embarrassment. It’s fair enough saying he is missing players but he let guys like Rennie, NDL and other all go and replaced them with guys like Coman and Strauss.

The fact Visser isn’t getting any ball tells you all you need to know about the Edinburgh tactics. I quite frankly preferred the get the ball to Visser tactic.

Roll on the third pro team based on the Caley Reds!!!!!

[RDW]

His latest excuse is to bemoan the fact that we're missing Internationalists in Denton, Scott and Fife, and Gilchrist was injured at half time. I have some sympathies in this, as we obviously don't have as much squad depth as Glasgow and so we will be hurt by these injuries more keenly, but this is just another in a long line of excuses now.

He blamed the penalty count, the yellow cards, the lack of his top players - he made no mention of the limp, passive defence, poor set piece, blunt attack, clueless kicking game. They are the reason we lost - not the penalty count (although that certainly didn't help).

[RuggerRadge2611]

I seriously think you could go round Melrose, Gala, Ayr, Stirling and pick from their 1st Teams and get a better side together than that crud we were served up on Friday Night.

[VinceWLB]

He is always seeking for excuses and this really is getting on my nerves.

Coman and particularly Strauss selections are absolutely mindless, worst thing is when Scott comes back he will be pushed to outside centre..

These guys are Currie cup/ITM cup journeymen, they are not Top 10 team Rabo standard.

[RDW]

I think Solomons' reign is going to be defined by whether he picks Strauss on Saturday.

If he does then it says nothing is broken and there is no need to fix anything. I'm sure he's trying his best - and seems to be a popular member of the team - but his performances aren't warranting his selection and he adds very little.

If Solomons puts Hurly at 12 and Beard at 13 - with Chris Dean on the bench - I'd be happy. Stick Tonks at 10 to get some attacking threat in the backs. I don't mind us losing if we have a go and give it a crack. I'd rather lose 50-20 than 30-0!

I can't see it happening though.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Edinburgh's performances have been utterly unaccaptable. I gave Solomons the benefit of the doubt last season. But this is his team now. They have gone through his pre season etc and I thought we had really turned a corner beating Munster in the opener.

We are just a laughing stock now, another Zebre to put a cricket score on.

the thought of what Glasgow will do to us in the holidays is terrifying.

Edinburgh are now in a cycle that will be ver difficult to break.

Noone wants to go along to a half empty stadium to watch a team of gutless incompetents get hammered. I barely got along to watch Edinburgh when they were winning. There is no motivation to go along at all now.

[tigertattie]

Its all a bit of a guddle eh!

wonder if Solomons knows what a guddle means???

Sat is going to determine Solomons future at the club I reckon!

It's really easy for us to sit here and critise the man, I'm sure he has far more rugby knowledge than I do. I can't see though why he is not bringing in changes when it is painfully obvious that things are not working!

Coman needs dropped. Strauss needs dropped (and moved to another club to be honest) If Solomons doesnt make the changes then I can see a bit of a fans revolt occuring at HQ!

In my armchair pundit opinion, the backs for Sat should be:

9. Kennedy
10. Heathcote
11. Visser
12. Burleigh
13. Beard
14. Hoyland/Farndale/A.N.Otherwinger/GC's mildy racist uncle Dougie
15. Tonks

Or put Tonks at 10 with Cuthbert back at 15. However I'd like to see Heathcote get some time with someone other than Struass outside him!

With tonks at 15 though he can be a second playmaker to come into the 10 slot when Heathcote has been tied up elsewhere!

I think the forwards would up their game significantly if they had confidence that the ball they win will be used to some effect by the backs!

[funnyExiledScot]

I think Solomons' reign is going to be defined by whether he picks Strauss on Saturday.

If he does then it says nothing is broken and there is no need to fix anything.  I'm sure he's trying his best - and seems to be a popular member of the team - but his performances aren't warranting his selection and he adds very little.

If Solomons puts Hurly at 12 and Beard at 13 - with Chris Dean on the bench - I'd be happy.  Stick Tonks at 10 to get some attacking threat in the backs. I don't mind us losing if we have a go and give it a crack. I'd rather lose 50-20 than 30-0!

I can't see it happening though.

Agree entirely. The backline needs to be adjusted and Burleigh needs to be at 12 with Beard at 13. Tonks to 10 and Cuthbert at 15. Visser is the only choice for the left wing and if Fife isn't fit then the new signing should play, or Hoyland, or Farndale, or as a last resort Hidalgo-Clyne.

I also think Watson should return at 7. We seem to be dropping our form players at the moment, and he started the season brightly.

Getting fed up with constant excuses from Solomons. He's had his pre-season following a whole year to assess the squad. Moaning about injuries doesn't wash with me. We were only missing three or so first choice players at the weekend (Denton, Scott and Fife) and yet didn't managed to score a single point. It's hardly an isolated incident either. We were spanked against the Ospreys and defeated by Connacht at Murrayfield. Not good.

[EWT Spoons]

For those who were saying Solomons should get the whole season, has the game at the weekend changed some opinions? There now seems to be a lot more negative comments coming out towards the coaching staff.

[RDW]

For those who were saying Solomons should get the whole season, has the game at the weekend changed some opinions?  There now seems to be a lot more negative comments coming out towards the coaching staff.

I think he still needs at least until the New Year at least.  As I posted earlier, we have a much easier 1st half to the season than the 2nd half.  If we can win all our home games (Dragons, Lyon, Blues, London Welsh, Treviso) and do reasonably well in the other European games (i.e. not losing to London Welsh) then we will be in a better position to take on the tougher 2nd half of the season.

If results - and performances - continue like this it will be a tough decision for the SRU - keep him for the whole season and risk ruining the club, or get rid of him, try and find some temporary coaches and start from square 1 with a lot of expense in bringing in a new coaching team and paying off players, not to mention finding decent replacements?

The big thing for me is that he's got to improve the level of performance.  Losing so often isn't such a big deal if your players are giving their all and at least putting in acceptable performances.  We have been so far short of acceptable this season it has been embarrassing.

The problem will come if he loses the dressing room.  Peter Wright has been hinting it - the players might get sick of the negative tactics, of being told they aren't strong enough or fit enough, and might take matters into their own hands.

I bet Kennedy and S-H-C are dying to take a quick tap and go.

[funnyExiledScot]

Agree - I would review his position after Glasgow school us in the 1872 fixtures. If at that point matters have not improved I would start another one of those global/comprehensive searches the SRU love so much (which usually end in the nearest bloke in the room/cheapest person they can find getting the job).

[tigertattie]

I bet Kennedy and S-H-C are dying to take a quick tap and go.

Imagine if Matalawu was playing for Edinburgh! He'd sit and rock himself to sleep at night "I must not play rugby, I must kick the ball dead. I must not play rugby. I must kick the ball dead.................."

[Weegie Wizard]

I can fully understand why Edinburgh folk might want to get rid of him but I think that would be a mistake.
It is obvious he is not getting good performances out the team so far this season (apart from v Munster) but who would you bring in? Easy to say Lineen but remember how rank Glasgow were for about 3 or 4yrs with him as head coach. We finished below Treviso at least once.
I'm not saying you need to stick with Solomons for years in blind faith that he will come good but it is not so simple as changing you coach every 18 months if he doesn't turn it around.

Plus, knowing the SRU if he goes you would end up with Scott Johnson

[EWT Spoons]

I actually think that might not be a bad approach this time round (picking nearest person)...well as long as Scott Johnson's not the nearest bloke in the room.

I'm still going with Sean Lineen as the sensible choice.  He wouldn't have been my pick last time round, but given how fractured the team is and how badly we're doing just now, I figure he can only be an improvement.

RDW if the first half of the season is the easier fixtures, i dread to think how we'll get on in the 2nd half given how poor we've been to date.

Weegie - The Munster game was a freak result, there is no other explanation for it given the other performances.  Lineen might not be the be all and end all, but he started the journey that Glasgow are on now.  He brought through promising players, built a team ethos and laid some decent groundwork that toonie is building upon.  Edinburgh need that, we're such a shambles from top to bottom we need someone to come in and start from scratch.  I don't like chopping and changing coaches, but we're shocking at the moment, the players don't know what they are doing, or seem capable of doing it and look like they couldn't give a f**k even if they did know.  But yes Scott Johnson's presence is a concern

[RDW]

Plus, knowing the SRU if he goes you would end up with Scott Johnson

That is a very, very good point.

[Weegie Wizard]

I'm not saying that there is a change of fortune around the corner but your next 5 games are Dragons, Blues, Treviso and Zebre (and Leinster). You can write off the Leinster game but if you were to get even 10 points (or more) out of those that puts you in a better mood for the annual tankings at Christmas.

Obviously doing badly in those games would be a bit of a disaster but they are a lot easier that Munster, Connacht, Ospreys, Scarlets and Ulster. I understand that it is the way you are playing that causes the most alarm but 7pts is more than I would have given you at this stage at the start of the season.

[RDW]

Weegie - 7 points is probably just about what we would have expected given we had Munster and Ospreys away, and Connacht and Scarlets at home, but the thing that is causing so much doom and gloom are the performances. The Ospreys and Ulster performances are some of the worst I can ever remember from Edinburgh - and there have been some really bad performances!

[RuggerRadge2611]

SJ cannot do any worse frankly.

Solomons is not playing to our strengths and IMO we have gone backwards this season by persevering with non SQ journeymen.

We have been robbed of any creative sparkle, our tackling is at best highly questionable and at worst down right disgraceful and our guys seem to not give a monkeys. Coupled with the fact our guys are never out the sin bin and so far we have shipped over 80 points in 2 games we are an absolute shambles.

[funnyExiledScot]

Plus, knowing the SRU if he goes you would end up with Scott Johnson

That is a very, very good point.

It would spell the end of Hamish Watson's career for starters. Far too useful and mobile for an openside. Step forward Fraser McKenzie, the 7 jersey is all yours.....

[RuggerRadge2611]

Answers on a post card at what SJ can do that will make him worse than Solomans....

[EWT Spoons]

Answers on a post card at what SJ can do that will make him worse than Solomans....

Best answer will be on page one of SJ's new book "Rugby Coaching by idiots"

Seriously though I don't want to tempt fate and say he couldn't do any worse, because there is that doubt at the back of my mind, that says "you know what, he probably could"

[RDW]

That's reminded me about SJ - what does he do again? And what has he actually been up to since the summer tour??

[EWT Spoons]

It's tenuous, but he's overseen the first academy, I suppose he must have had some input there.

Not sure if that extends beyond tipex'ing out the no.7 & 6 pegs from the changing rooms and replacing them with 8s.

[RDW]

It does sound like one of those jobs that you hate people for having - do bugger all but get paid loads for it - but secretly wish you had yourself!

Says the man who is regularly on 606 at work...

[Weegie Wizard]

Radge tbh I can't really argue with any of that apart from the 1st bit. Cast your mind back to that England game in the 6 nations before saying what SJ is and is not capable of.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I cannot take a single positive from Edinburgh's performances. We are a disgrace.

Personally I don't see how we can do worse than shipping over 80 points against Ospreys and Ulster.

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