We Go Again! The 2014/15 Premier League Thread

[Dolphin Ziggler]

First topic message reminder :

Yeah that definitely has a point and relevance. It shows how ludicrous a comment that is.

[Duty281]

I do not think the lack of coaches/managers with a dark skin colour is an issue because, quite simply, skin colour is irrelevant to the merit and abilities of a person.

If there is evidence of discrimination, then by all means tackle it with sanctions and penalties, but I have not seen or heard of any such incidents.

Even if there were any such evidence, the key underlying point is that you can never defeat discrimination by discriminating. It is ludicrous, ridiculous and patronising.

Let us say that, in twenty years, the Premier League had ten black managers and ten white managers as a result of this Rooney Rule and more positive discrimination. How does that make the Premier League any better? How does this make football better?

Answer: it does not.

The Rooney Rule does not force you to hire a black manager or member of staff, all it says is that at least one black manager has to be interviewed. This is not an instant fix however in ten/twenty years it would make a difference. That and making the cost of coaching badges a lot cheaper.

But why should one manager, based on the colour of his skin, have to be interviewed?

Why does his skin colour matter so much? It is a meaningless external characteristic, much like a person's shoe size or their eye colour.

[Lowlandbrit]

But why should one manager, based on the colour of his skin, have to be interviewed?

Why does his skin colour matter so much? It is a meaningless external characteristic, much like a person's shoe size or their eye colour.

Because whether through active avoidance or a lack of familiarity, BME candidates aren't (or at least don't think they are) getting a look in currently. Getting interviews would at least boost their profile with chairmen and the public, and opening up the hiring process increases opportunities for qualified coaches of all races.

[Hammersmith harrier]

It is again completely overlooking the processes in place for hiring a new manager, it's all shortlist driven and then the backroom staff is largely chosen by the manager.

[GSC]

I agree something needs to be done, because the number of minority managers in this country is completely disproportionate to the number of minority player. But the Rooney rule completely misses the point for me. Its about making minorities the best candidate, whereas the Rooney rule makes them a "candidate"

[Hammersmith harrier]

It's about making yourself the best candidate, the opportunity is there whether you're black or white and no measures should be taken to make anybody the best candidate.

[Lowlandbrit]

It is again completely overlooking the processes in place for hiring a new manager, it's all shortlist driven and then the backroom staff is largely chosen by the manager.

The problem is that 'the processes in place' largely seem to be less 'who's the best fit' and more 'who do we already know'. The point is to give more people a chance to get on the shortlist.

[Duty281]

But why should one manager, based on the colour of his skin, have to be interviewed?

Why does his skin colour matter so much? It is a meaningless external characteristic, much like a person's shoe size or their eye colour.

Because whether through active avoidance or a lack of familiarity, BME candidates aren't (or at least don't think they are) getting a look in currently. Getting interviews would at least boost their profile with chairmen and the public, and opening up the hiring process increases opportunities for qualified coaches of all races.

But that still does not answer the question of why so much importance is being placed on someone's skin colour. And, purely out of curiosity, how dark skinned do you have to be to qualify as one of the beneficiaries of this Rooney Rule?

Is Theo Walcott dark enough? Rio Ferdinand? David Luiz? Lewis Hamilton?

Is there a set criteria on how dark skinned you must be to get a token interview?

And, again out of curiosity, I notice that light skinned players are under represented in the Premier League with regards to the total population of this land.

Going by the same logic as the Rooney Rule, why is there no similar idea implemented to address this? (Duty tries to ask this with innocence, but he already knows the answer, and how it is related to the absolutely pathetic country where he hails from)

[Lowlandbrit]

And, again out of curiosity, I notice that light skinned players are under represented in the Premier League with regards to the total population of this land.

Going by the same logic as the Rooney Rule, why is there no similar idea implemented to address this? (Duty tries to ask this with innocence, but he already knows the answer, and how it is related to the absolutely pathetic country where he hails from)

Since the rule isn't a quota, but is instead related to access to opportunity, a 'similar idea' in that case would be something like forcing clubs to give at least one white youth player a trial every season. Frankly, I doubt there are any clubs that don't already.

[westisbest]

Forward on 24 hours.

What a massive win for Villa.
Benteke coming on to score the winner. And what a goal it was, worthy of winning any game.

Great chance for Chelsea to extend their lead at the top.

[mystiroakey]

Back on the Rooney rule.

There is no negative.

Only a positive. That may only be a potential positive but I reiterate there is no negative.

Some see a negative in positive discrimination . but I don't especially in this case, as it isn't a quota on employment just a possibility of employment.

Yes we won't see 5 black pl managers in the next 5 years. But we may see more black players getting coaching badges and a significant percentage getting more roles throughout the leagues all over the world as a result. And eventually we will see a closer percentage of black coaches in the leagues to the percentage of black players. This could take 20 years.

Yes there is discrimination -, and there is a mindset in black players minds that they won't get anywhere in management as its a white mans game. But this incentive will make more take there badges.

I like positive discrimination. I think its re balancing.

But it ONLY WORKS when the time comes when we can drop all forms of discrimination (including positive). The long game is to make black managers as normal as white managers as they are seen as players.

Time to start the Rooney rule for me. I fully endorse it.

If anyone thinks there is a better idea. Mention it....

If we put money into targetting black players by the FA to take the coaching badges. Then fine . but then we are still positively discriminating and to an even more extent.

So what other options are there to redress the balance?

And if you feel a balance doesn't need to exist then explain why. I cant be bothered hearing the racial classification talk. Its garbage. There is a problem and we can address it.

I would also happily start debating on how to get our large Asian community more into the sport as well.

Sport in the UK helps break boundaries. Its a huge part of our culture and a fabric that brings us as a society together..

[GSC]

I can't quite work out why the media thinks anyone gives a toss about Bartons opinion.

[Duty281]

A balance does not need to exist simply because there is no merit and no logic in placing such great importance on the colour of someone's skin.

People should be treated equally, regardless of sexuality, race, colour, religion etc.

Positive discrimination does not allow that. Think of the white fellow with this Rooney Rule; imagine how his legitimate chances of securing employment or an interview are diminished simply because of something as meaningless as the colour of his skin.

How is that fair? How is that just?

And again, imagine a world where the English Premier League has ten white managers and ten black managers: how does that improve the game? Answer, it does not.

[socal1976]

It's not about quota, it's about a belief that currently black players aren't given the chance in coaching in management and nothing has been done to dispel this belief. If the Rooney Rule encouraged more black players to go through their coaching badges then great, as Oakey said it won't happen straight away but in ten years we would certainly see the benefit.

I fully agree, you see a great deal more black managers and coaches in American team sports because of ways to increase visibility and availability of minority candidates. Who knows 10 interviews may result in nothing, but one club's committee or board might be wowed in an interview and look closer at a candidate. They might find that someone they had never thought about could do the job, it is a win-win. The club is not required to hire X, but to look at X and maybe X knocks there socks off in the early discussions and gets the gig. Nothing nefarious in it, nothing that cuts down the freedom of the club to select the best person for said club.

[socal1976]

A balance does not need to exist simply because there is no merit and no logic in placing such great importance on the colour of someone's skin.

People should be treated equally, regardless of sexuality, race, colour, religion etc.

Positive discrimination does not allow that. Think of the white fellow with this Rooney Rule; imagine how his legitimate chances of securing employment or an interview are diminished simply because of something as meaningless as the colour of his skin.

How is that fair? How is that just?

And again, imagine a world where the English Premier League has ten white managers and ten black managers: how does that improve the game? Answer, it does not.

You seem to ignore the fact that no one is requiring a quota or an appointment just an interview.

[Lowlandbrit]

Positive discrimination does not allow that. Think of the white fellow with this Rooney Rule; imagine how his legitimate chances of securing employment or an interview are diminished simply because of something as meaningless as the colour of his skin.

Other than the purely mathematical decrease in odds if there are more people on the shortlist than before, the only way this diminishes his legitimate chances is if the minority candidate is so much more convincing in the interview that he goes from best to second best choice, which would only prove the point that clubs are currently ignoring quality candidates.

[mystiroakey]

Duty.

You have admitted yourself there is nothing different between a person of one tone of skin than another. The fact you can see that but not see the trend is worrying me. It means you might not be speaking honestly.

You ask the question. How will it benefit the English game by having more black managers.

I don't know the percentage of white to non white skinned players in the PL. But let's say its 60 white and 40 non white.

If we are only employing from the 60% we have lost the potential of the other 40% who are as you stated above no different to white people.

It doesn't matter if its due to the minority players mindsets that they can't become a manger or if it is due to discrimination from owners. The simple truth is black players are not taking there coaching badges.

The more ex players or senior players we get taking there badges the more chance we have of getting better managers. It increases the pool of potential coaches to chose from...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I look forward to Chris Hughton/Paul Ince wowing the Liverpool board into appointing then sometime soon then

[Guest]

Is it Alan Pardew's last game today? Probably.

Swansea's attack should be all over our back line like a dog is on s**t.

Not the most exciting games in the PL today, not predicting too many goals either.

[mystiroakey]

Is it Alan Pardew's last game today? Probably.

Swansea's attack should be all over our back line like a dog is on s**t.

Not the most exciting games in the PL today, not predicting too many goals either.

Not sure . but whatever the outcome I can't see him leaving today....

Question on both topics.

Pardew or Houghton?

[Guest]

I look forward to Chris Hughton/Paul Ince wowing the Liverpool board into appointing then sometime soon then

Scenes Olly, crazy scenes!

[The Special Juan]

I can't quite work out why the media thinks anyone gives a toss about Bartons opinion.

Neither do I. It's not like he's a good player either, just a blinking naughty naughty boy.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Barton is a twit of the highest proportions and not that good. Its why QPR will go down, Joey Barton is too important to how they play and not good enough to be that important.

My view on the Rooney rule is that it isnt the best option, its the most PR easy option. I suppose my work in recruitment was in businesses where such quotas wouldnt matter, equally I would never ask the skin colour of anyone I spoke to.

But football is not comparable to recruitment on any level in the business world. There's far too many factors that don't exist in the outside world.

[Fernando]

Sunderland 1-1 Stoke - Wickham: Adam
Swansea 1-0 Newcastle - Bony

[mystiroakey]

Your points miss the point completely Dolph. and a stint in recruiting labour or admin workers isnt going to give you any added insight unless you can actually visualise the problem.

Football is very comparable to many other areas of recruitment- bar the players off course.

but from that point we all know 99% of football managers come from the players.

so that is your population or pool(ex players)- not the pool you were working from - which could have incorporated 5 million people.

we need to get more of them to take there badges- and we need to offer certain incentives for the minority groups that arnt represented enough- then we will get more British coaches of all colours not just black.

just think about your recruitment and then just scale it down to all the potential candidates only being ex footballers or fully qualified coaches..

and people need to stop thinking about the man united's or even Everton's of this world- think outside the PL- a black manager isn't going to manage man city tomorrow- because none have earned there stripes to yet- but get more players qualified- get more of them managing at lower level teams and then they will eventually earn there stripes.

[Fernando]

Sunderland 2-1 Stoke - Fletcher

[Guest]

Newcastle fans are fishing out their Pardew 'Out' signs from their pockets. Not sure why he keeps his job in all honestly. Team showing nothing, no improvement, no fight & when your asking Obertan to produce miracles after months of warming the bench, you know your in trouble.

[Fernando]

Because Ashley would rather finish bottom half then pay out to Pardew to end his contract.

[Fernando]

Leicester 1-0 Burnley - Schlupp

[Guest]

Bottom half? At this rate, it's Championship football & £50m+ wiped off the value of the club. I think Ashley can do the sums, pay him off for £5m & get someone in, who knows what they are doing.

[Fernando]

Bottom half? At this rate, it's Championship football & £50m+ wiped off the value of the club. I think Ashley can do the sums, pay him off for £5m & get someone in, who knows what they are doing.

Id put money on Ashley keeping his money in his wallet until Feb/March to see how badly you're actually doing then do something until then he'll do zilch as usual.

Currently you're being pounded by Swansea the good news though is it's only 1-0

#ComebackIsOn

[Duty281]

The PFA say 18% of people on their coaching courses are dark-skinned, which compares well, I would say, to the statistics that 25% of players in the English game are dark-skinned.

I cannot see how that presents a problem that not enough dark-skinned players are taking up coaching badges. It seems like a fair amount to me.

As for today: how long can Pardew last?!

[Fernando]

Leicester 1-1 Burnley - Kightly

[Fernando]

Swansea 1-1 Newcastle - Cisse

#You'reWelcome

#ObertanIsEpicTodayOnly.

Leicester 2-1 Burnley - Mahrez

[Guest]

oh my god

[Fernando]

Liverpool 1-0 WBA - Lallana

[Guest]

oh dear

[Guest]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[The Special Juan]

Ha, that Newcastle banner is hilarious.

[Guest]

2-2 FT - Good point. Pardew survives. Cisse back to his form of two years ago.

[hampo17]

Good win for us against a very hard working West Brom team. Have to say the Oliver made a right mess of the penalty for their equalizer, it was a foul no doubt but it was half a yard outside the box and should have been a simple decision, would have been very disappointed had that cost us.

[Lowlandbrit]

2-2 FT - Good point. Pardew survives. Cisse back to his form of two years ago.

If he could keep muddling along just enough to stay out of the relegation places, do you think he stays all season or do you pull the plug before the transfer window?

[Guest]

stays. ashley will only intervene, if we are bottom adrift & looking like a championship club & he can envisage losing half the value of the club with a relegation. as fernando states, aslong as pardew keeps the ship afloat above the relegation zone, ashley will do nothing.

[The Special Juan]

City look very shoogly at the back, Mangala especially looks poor.

[kingraf]

Was the Newcastle game any good?

[westisbest]

Ah well another defeat against the big guns.

Least Tekkers is back.

I'm feeling more confident this season.

Think we will take points off the likes of Palace etc where we didn't last season.

We still need to defend that bit better and goong forward, need to be more clinical.

I think we will be alright come may.

Next 2 games after the international break are Everton & QPR, both away. 4 points will do.
Thats a draw at Everton and a good win at QPR.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Your points miss the point completely Dolph. and a stint in recruiting labour or admin workers isnt going to give you any added insight unless you can actually visualise the problem.

Football is very comparable to many other areas of recruitment- bar the players off course.

but from that point we all know 99% of football managers come from the players.

so that is your population or pool(ex players)- not the pool you were working from - which could have incorporated 5 million people.

we need to get more of them to take there badges- and we need to offer certain incentives for the minority groups that arnt represented enough- then we will get more British coaches of all colours not just black.

just think about your recruitment and then just scale it down to all the potential candidates only being ex footballers or fully qualified coaches..

and people need to stop thinking about the man united's or even Everton's of this world- think outside the PL- a black manager isn't going to manage man city tomorrow- because none have earned there stripes to yet- but get more players qualified- get more of them managing at lower level teams and then they will eventually earn there stripes.

Wait, I wasnt recruiting for football teams? Bloody hell, thanks for telling me Myst, I had no idea this wasnt the same scale

The exact thing you talk about is the exact thing you have then completely misunderstood. Its not about the Rooney Rule, thats just easy PR cos its definable and easy to produce a counter argument for the FA. Its about the earlier steps, encouraging them to do a lot more early on, rather than some token gesture of "well, if you qualify then people will HAVE to talk to you". If anything, it comes across as suggesting football is slightly more racist than it actually is and that chairmen only want to talk to white people.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good win for us against a very hard working West Brom team. Have to say the Oliver made a right mess of the penalty for their equalizer, it was a foul no doubt but it was half a yard outside the box and should have been a simple decision, would have been very disappointed had that cost us.

More dejan Lovren lolz

[GSC]

I agree with the principle of the Rooney Rule.

I disagree with its application. Implementing it in its US form would be a complete waste of time outside of PR

[hampo17]

Good win for us against a very hard working West Brom team. Have to say the Oliver made a right mess of the penalty for their equalizer, it was a foul no doubt but it was half a yard outside the box and should have been a simple decision, would have been very disappointed had that cost us.

More dejan Lovren lolz

More Michael Oliver "lolz" would be more accurate mate, was a shocking decision.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Its still a stupid foul wherever it is

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