Munster v Saracens

First topic message reminder :

This place really is going to the dogs...1:00pm the day before a huge European night with the teams named for over 2 hours and no tread up yet?!?!

Munster
Jones, Conway, Smith, Hurley, Zebo; Keats, Murray; Cronin, Casey, BJ; Foley, PO’C; P O’M (capt), TO’D, CJ Stander

Replacements: Guinazu, Kilcoyne, Archer, B Holland, Copeland, Williams, JJ, GvdH

Saracens
15. Alex Goode, 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Marlcelo Bosch, 12. Brad Barritt ©, 11. David Strettle; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Neil de Kock; 1. Richard Barrington, 2. Jamie George, 3. Petrus Du Plessis, 4.George Kruis, 5. Jim Hamilton, 6. Kelly Brown, 7. Will Fraser, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements; 16. Scott Spurling, 17. Rhys Gill, 18. James Johnston, 19. Mouritz Botha, 20. Jackson Wray, 21. Richard Wigglesworth, 22. Charlie Hodgson, 23. Duncan Taylor.

quinsforever wrote:Notch, we're all really just warming up after a summer of limited 606 aggravation.

Is kind of like pre-season training

Delightful!

We've all been Munstered by some team, some time. They obviously outsmarted Saracens. I didn't see the game, but I'm glad enough. It sounds almost as dull and uninventive as last years final.

Apologies notch.

I guess you can say I am a sore loser because I thought it was a dire game and thought Sarries played poorly but I did give credit to Munster. They were streetwise, deserved to win, I thought the YC and try should have gone Munsters way.

Actually that comparison to the final isn't far off. Like in that match I thought Hodgson should have been playing instead of Farrell.

I enjoyed the style of rugby on show although i reckon it would get boring pretty quick week in week out.

Saracens definitely looked more threatening ball in hands but Munster's power and cohesion in the forwards was too much for them at the end.

niwatts wrote:Sarries will rue not picking up the LBP there.  A couple of poor tactical mistakes as well.  Barrington shouldn't have been taken off at HT with Sarries winning the scrum (especially in the hindsighted light of the Gill yellow), they lost initiative thereafter with it shaping up to be an increasingly powerful weapon.  Similarly Bosch came off too early.

What was also obvious against a good lineout side like Munster is what they're missing with Borthwick's retirement.

Yes, the Barrington thing was odd, he'd been having a really good game. The commentators said it was because the coaches recognised they had an advantage and Gill was meant to be a bit quicker in the drive and so could maximise it. Backfired badly. When you've got an advantage don't mess with it until you have to.

lets be honest that game was entirely about the yellow card. no complaints that it was deserved. but munster had shown nothing prior to that moment, and precious little after Gill came back on.

so for all the excited comments about physicality etc etc. the reality is the game was poor quality. lots of knock ons. ridiculous numbers of boxkicks/highballs, many of which bounced! appaling frequency of blocking of players chasing the box kick (i hadnt realised how bad this had become but its pretty ugly to watch), and precious little attacking play, especially from munster, and poor decisions/discipline from Sarries.

so as a club neutral, a dull game.

Totalflanker wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

wolfball wrote:

quinsforever wrote:awful rugby to watch, even if it was physically competitive. so are bar brawls, but the difference is bar brawls are entertaining

LOVED IT. Of course I love that an Irish team won, but that tense power driven rugby is what makes our game great, the completely varied way it can by played.

In the past quins I suggested you didn't really understand the ethos of rugby (during the debate over stopping rugby become like football with galactico teams etc), and its comments like the above which remind me of that.

silly boy. world rugby has moved on. you stick to your powerball. you wont beat a SH team as they will run tries in for fun if you kick to them all day like that. especially where you dont have home advantage. like in a world cup. wonder if thats why ireland are the most overranked side when it comes to world cups? ever considered that its you that doesnt get it?

BOD was a great player. In any other team eschewing "powerball" with decent quality around him, he would have been a legendary player. it's telling that BODs best moments were for Leinster not Ireland.

More a case of doing what was needed to get the job done. Sometime it is exactly what is needed and had Keatley had his kicking boots on and the scoreline been a little further apart maybe we would have seen something different towards then end, but it wasn't and we didn't, doesn't make it any less of a game. If not enthralling from a running rugby perspective was for the sheer physicallity on both sides.

This. Especially from Munster in the second half. Few teams could live with them when they take it up a notch. And good to see the team from the league of "intensity" being shown what its all about. Now up to Saracens to stick it to Munster in their home fixture. See what they're made of. I look forward to the rematch

quinsforever wrote:lets be honest that game was entirely about the yellow card. no complaints that it was deserved. but munster had shown nothing prior to that moment, and precious little after Gill came back on.

so for all the excited comments about physicality etc etc. the reality is the game was poor quality. lots of knock ons. ridiculous numbers of boxkicks/highballs, many of which bounced! appaling frequency of blocking of players chasing the box kick (i hadnt realised how bad this had become but its pretty ugly to watch), and precious little attacking play, especially from munster, and poor decisions/discipline from Sarries.

so as a club neutral, a dull game.

bullcrap - and your own entry for graceless comment of the night.

Don't worry, you've got it nailed.

I enjoyed the game but there was only one team that was going to win Sarries were hanging on most of the game, the second half Munster were camped in Sarries half. Murry's box kicking exposed Sarries poor catching and Munster scored the try twice. What the TMO was watching the first time Munster went over is beyond me.

The better team won.

tatterd wrote:

quinsforever wrote:lets be honest that game was entirely about the yellow card. no complaints that it was deserved. but munster had shown nothing prior to that moment, and precious little after Gill came back on.

so for all the excited comments about physicality etc etc. the reality is the game was poor quality. lots of knock ons. ridiculous numbers of boxkicks/highballs, many of which bounced! appaling frequency of blocking of players chasing the box kick (i hadnt realised how bad this had become but its pretty ugly to watch), and precious little attacking play, especially from munster, and poor decisions/discipline from Sarries.

so as a club neutral, a dull game.

bullcrap - and your own entry for graceless comment of the night.

really? during that ten minutes the score went from 6-3 to 14-3. half the points in the match were scored during that 10 minute period. what were the other pivotal moments you might point to?

The yellow card was pivotal. That cannot be denied. But the 15-man team have to take advantage of it for it to become pivotal and we often see that that does not happen.

Munster came with a simple game plan tonight - 9-man rugby. After last week, many fans were expecting JJ Hanrahan to start at 12 because the centre pairing of Hurley and Smyth has not yet bedded in. Hurley is still learning his trade as a 12 and Smyth is not yet fitting into Munster ways. When we saw the team I think many supporters will have had all their fingers and toes crossed about that centre partnership - that it would do something miraculous compared to last week and previous outings in the Pro 12. So, first up, well done to Smyth and Hurley. Very much a work in progress but they were better than any previous game together.

The kick chase, it may not be liked by neutrals, but there have been many comments that Saracens cannot cope well with high balls. Conor Murray's kicking from hand is superb, measured to an inch (or 2.5 cm if you have gone metric!) so that his chasers have time to get to the ball and put the catcher under pressure. If a coach perceives a weakness in the opposition he is bound to create a game plan that exploits it.

Last week, Munster were slow to the breakdown and not physical enough in it in the first half. I had hoped for a repeat of their performance against Leinster a few weeks ago, and was disappointed by the lack of intensity. This week they were far more intense in that area and it showed.

It seemed that Ian Keatley had left his kicking boots in Sale. His kicking from hand was very good but from the tee, even though there was a breeze was still unbelievably awful. Maybe they should let Conor Murray take the place kicks. He has done it before, and been reasonably successful. Seriously though, place-kicking is one skill which requires hours and hours of practice. I have no idea how much time Keatley spends at it, but he does need to improve. The rest of his game is good enough but he will never be picked for Ireland with stats of around 55%.

The crowd did have an effect. That is what home advantage brings you. I daresay in the return match Saracens will lay on all sorts of stuff (as they have done in the past) to have a similar effect on the game. But I am sure the Munster copaching team will rpepare the team for it.

So hard luck Saracens, but thank you Munster for letting my heart have a slightly less traumatic time tonight.

Vaguely disappointed with the result. We should have won by more and I think we gave them too much respect overall. Keatley brilliant kicking from hand, terrible goal kicking left 11 points behind (outside of the yellow card period as well funnily enough).

I suppose we cant complain too much given we nearly tripled the average winning margin between both sides but again the lack of penetration in the backs is worrying. Overall it was like watching Shannon in the late 90's in a Munster senior cup final but that is also a thing of beauty in its own way.

Just had a quick look at the stats and CJ was outstanding again even outshining his much vaunted opponent from Australia....really growing into the role.

Keatley, Keatley, Keatley.....what can I say ROG like in his kicking from hand, but his goal kicking was atrocious. At this stage the only way is up in terms of improvement. Hurley had a couple of good carries and our defence overall was very good (good sweeping from Zebo). Delighted for Conway who is beginning to show his class and potential....

Luckily we have Clermont at home first in the double header....

Reasonable, balanced post that stands well apart from much of the crap posted so far. Cheers Kia. Only one team deserved the win today and I'm sure the fans will be having a good night tonight.

Remember that the only fan of the losing team here was quick to congratulate Munster and specifically said that the yellow was deserved and Munster's try shouldn't have been disallowed.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Reasonable, balanced post that stands well apart from much of the crap posted so far. Cheers Kia. Only one team deserved the win today and I'm sure the fans will be having a good night tonight.

Remember that the only fan of the losing team here was quick to congratulate Munster and specifically said that the yellow was deserved and Munster's try shouldn't have been disallowed.

Pity about Nils Mordt and Maurits Botha...seems some south africans in saffacens cant be as gracious as you.....

No idea what they said or how that applies to me and what I posted?

I eagerly await enlightenment.

nothing about you FD...just your post was reasonable unlike these two...have a look at twitter for the aforementioned

Oh here you go then...

@NilsMordt: CJ Stander milking a penalty like a footballer. #disgraceful #NotRugby

@mouritzbotha: Rugby is a tough physical game. Don't let diving ruin our lovely game! #StopDiving

Well now it does get confusing and I genuinely don't know who to stand by. I completely agree with what they say  about his behaviour (the penalty should have been reversed - at the very least, before we end up with 30 Morgan Parras on the pitch). However I also strongly feel that they should shut up and leave it to the fans and pundits to discuss. Congratulate your opponents and leave it there.

But then again I enjoy sportsmen being honest rather than Poopie out the lines that the PR people permit them to say. Honestly torn on this.

BTW not a Saracens fan, if that's where the confusion is coming from.

Edit: auto correct not a fan of Morgan apparently.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Well now it does get confusing and I genuinely don't know who to stand by. I completely agree with what they say  about his behaviour (the penalty should have been reversed - at the very least, before we end up with 30 Morgan Patras on the pitch). However I also strongly feel that they should shut up and leave it to the fans and pundits to discus. Congratulate your opponents and leave it there.

But then again I enjoy sportsmen being honest rather than shutting out the lines that the PR people permit them to say. Honestly torn on this.

BTW not a Saracens fan, if that's where the confusion is coming from.

#hooked #truecolours.....

Just to be clear...you approve of that type of behaviour then, whereby a player could be seriously injured....

My only comment on the incident was that it should have been at least a yellow. Maybe read what someone has actually said rather than pretending they said something that conveniently allows you to persue your confrontational agenda. Cheers mate.

Now you are just telling a little untruth...you just said the penalty should have been reversed...in what parallel universe would that be...you sad little toad.

Maybe tomorrow you'll have a better grasp of the English language and understand how wide of the mark you are, maybe you won't. Either way I won't be wasting my time. Enjoy.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Maybe tomorrow you'll have a better grasp of the English language and understand how wide of the mark you are, maybe you won't. Either way I won't be wasting my time. Enjoy.

thank god for that...run along now..

ME-109 wrote:Oh here you go then...

@NilsMordt: CJ Stander milking a penalty like a footballer. #disgraceful #NotRugby

@mouritzbotha: Rugby is a tough physical game. Don't let diving ruin our lovely game! #StopDiving

Disgraceful comments.

Yep, disgraceful comments. Disgraceful play acting. Discraceful vertical tipping of a player unable to defend himself. Not good in any way and diverts the conversation away from what it should be, which is another fine physical performance from a team that can still school most in Europe about physicality. A couple of times this week they've been called average by a few posters but they've shown that to be Love sacks.

KiaRose wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Oh here you go then...

@NilsMordt: CJ Stander milking a penalty like a footballer. #disgraceful #NotRugby

@mouritzbotha: Rugby is a tough physical game. Don't let diving ruin our lovely game! #StopDiving

Disgraceful comments.

More lacking in class than anything else....one for the dressing room wall for the return....

Given the comments on alleged simulation (even though Stander and Gill were lucky that he landed on the players in the ruck) these comments seem more like something you would expect from another footballing association...

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Yep, disgraceful comments. Disgraceful play acting. Discraceful vertical tipping of a player unable to defend himself. Not good in any way and diverts the conversation away from what it should be, which is another fine physical performance from a team that can still school most in Europe about physicality. A couple of times this week they've been called average by a few posters but they've shown that to be Love sacks.

so you are retracting your statement on simulation and that the penalty should have been reversed...maybe an apology for the slur on the player in question would be appropriate no?

Read my second sentence and that'll answer your questions. Honestly, maybe you're normally OK and you're just overly pumped up because your team has won, but at this point it's not worth it to find out. Onto the ignore list you go. I know you'll be getting the last word in because experience tells me it's important for people like you. I'm sure you'll put me right in my place

Not at all FD...just having some fun with someone with a self importance over and above their capabilities...so lets be clear...you do retract your rather silly statement on simulation by CJ in the tackle. I am sure we will all give you the benefit of the doubt , I will for one. We all make mistakes...some bigger than others...

Munster won that game easily, or would have a few years ago with ROG. My abiding memory of this game is where it noticeably used the concussion bin as a tactical replacement tool. Billy V ran off (in a straight line) to be replaced by a returning and rested Fraser for the last five minutes. How much must Dean Richards have wished for this rule before now?

ME-109 wrote:Not at all FD...just having some fun with someone with a self importance over and above their capabilities...so lets be clear...you do retract your rather silly statement on simulation by CJ in the tackle. I am sure we will all give you the benefit of the doubt , I will for one. We all make mistakes...some bigger than others...

He was rolling around clutching his head and neck until the ref gave the yellow and then miraculously jumped to his feet and carried on playing, sounds a little odd no?

Can someone provide a GIF or some other footage of this simulation?
I don't recall noticing it at the time, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.

Even if Stander was doing a Rita Hayworth, I'm not sure it would have affected the fact that a yellow was shown.

I'm actually pretty amazed about the Twitter feeds from the Sarries players. Fully expect these to be yanked once the Sarries PR team notices.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

malky1963 wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Looks as though the dubious yellow changed the course of the game.

It was not dubious in the slightest

It was a home decision -

Would O'Connoll have been tolerated to back chat to the ref like he did at any other ground?

The sarries player after lifting the leg continued to flip the player over. Thats why its a pen and a yellow

I've never seen so many Refs at a game.

I thought it was a terrible game to be honest.

Munster are such a Marmite team, you can see by the comments on this thread, it seems to blind people to one degree or another!

Pretty clear yellow, play acting or not! Suspect he will be spoken to by the management.

Everyone knows what you get when you go to Thomond, it wouldnt have been a shock for Sarries or their management. By they arent as bad as suggested away from home either, have beat Gloucester, Northampton and Quinns (althought that was like a home game) in the last few years!

Every professional player in the game knows that Garces can be influenced by the outcome of an incident following his red for the Payne/Goode accident last year. Last night the question was whether he would turn a cast iron yellow into red.

Stander managed to appeal to the ref before requiring treatment. I think the medics made a concerted effort to get to him quickly before he could show he was fine. A real farce that the game didn't need. Though there was generally a lot of hand waving on the Munster side.

Interestingly such behaviour was predicted a month or so ago;

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Red-card-hard-punch-just-soft-punch/story-23037986-detail/story.html

Thankfully Garces made the correct call with only the yellow card.

Delighted Munster won. They ground it out. Soft enough yellow but the Sarries player only has himself to blame for picking the guy up.

Nice work Munster, bad Keatley.

Ridiculous call for the Conway try. It is the Anglo-French cup though so what do you expect.

Brilliant win for Munster! I was really worried about this match as Sarries are a top top team, finalists and are where the bar is at. It was far from perfect performance but it was a comfortable win in the end.

Our backrow now is as strong as it has ever been and in Murray we have a world class scrum half.
Bring on clermont now

Just watched the game this morning.

Shocking bad game for the neutral - poor skills and very dull game play

It was a yellow, did not see the playacting - but if there was I would hope they (and this should be the same for any team) would get censored

Munster deserved to win overall - but the yellow made it more comfortable

But overall not one I would ever want to watch again - a very very poor match

What play acting?

people are commenting on it above, not seen it myself, so can not comment on who did what

But if there was - then throw the book at them I say

Miss the game did you guns?

Was pretty obvious in real time. Unless you are pathologically opposed to Sarries. They aren't my favourite team either.

But if refs and the IRB don't do something about teams trying to win yellows then the game is going to be in big trouble.

Just wanted to pop on and say congrats to Munster great to see you guys winning and hitting top of the group. Hopefully we can grab a win of our own today.

Oh Dear.

A 'Bad' 'boring' 'shocking' and 'cheating' game?

We were promised that wouldn't happen!!!

I'm mad that the organisers are going back on their word!

Great to see Munster win it. The Grind is coming back into their choice of gears. Outlanders don't seem to like it but why should a tank try to be a racehorse just to please chaps who like the garish colour of the silks and a damn good thrashing given to rustic cart horses?

It's as if some wanted Munster to play a game of hara kiri - falling on their sacrifical sword and whispering 'All Hail Saracens' as they died?

Agree SF, it was great to see the old Munster game triumph over the 'fast running' Sarries, or in Ashton's case the fast tripping one (known as the Ash Gash by his PR team).

It won't be censored it's just not something you want to see in the game. Player is fouled, referee rightly blows up and asks for the replay, players then huts the deck with the entire medical team piling around him. He was perfectly fine when appealing and as soon as the card had been brandished. Just didn't need to do it, the referee was capable of making the correct decision without the theatrics.

The referees governing body need to change the interpretation so that action and intent are used to quantify the level of sanction and not player outcome as this will stop the temptation for players to hit the deck unnecessarily.

Is there a video of the incident?

I only saw bits and pieces of the game. Didn't look like I missed much from comments on here and from what I've read.

Good win for Munster though. It's going to be a tight old group, this one. Clermont will have been heartened by the lack of cutting edge shown both sides last night.

Have to say I really enjoyed the forward battle myself. Sarries have a massive pack, but my God did the local Munster lads make these internationals look very average. I think Sarries visited the Munster 22 a grand total of 2 times in the whole game. With a tad bit more ambition and luck, this Munster team could've went for a try bonus point. Jeff teams struggling in Europe again.