Munster v Saracens

First topic message reminder :

This place really is going to the dogs...1:00pm the day before a huge European night with the teams named for over 2 hours and no tread up yet?!?!

Munster
Jones, Conway, Smith, Hurley, Zebo; Keats, Murray; Cronin, Casey, BJ; Foley, PO’C; P O’M (capt), TO’D, CJ Stander

Replacements: Guinazu, Kilcoyne, Archer, B Holland, Copeland, Williams, JJ, GvdH

Saracens
15. Alex Goode, 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Marlcelo Bosch, 12. Brad Barritt ©, 11. David Strettle; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Neil de Kock; 1. Richard Barrington, 2. Jamie George, 3. Petrus Du Plessis, 4.George Kruis, 5. Jim Hamilton, 6. Kelly Brown, 7. Will Fraser, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements; 16. Scott Spurling, 17. Rhys Gill, 18. James Johnston, 19. Mouritz Botha, 20. Jackson Wray, 21. Richard Wigglesworth, 22. Charlie Hodgson, 23. Duncan Taylor.

Brennus wrote:Have to say I really enjoyed the forward battle myself. Sarries have a massive pack, but my God did the local Munster lads make these internationals look very average. I think Sarries visited the Munster 22 a grand total of 2 times in the whole game. With a tad bit more ambition and luck, this Munster team could've went for a try bonus point. Jeff teams struggling in Europe again.

comedy

i) munster have as many current internationals as saracens do
ii) munster only managed to score 1 try when sarries were down to 14 men. 2 line breaks in a whole match does not a try bonus point make
iii) again? like sarries made the semi and final in the last 2 years? that kind of struggling?

Can any Saracens fan say how Duncan Taylor, Kelly Brown and Jim Hamilton have been for you this season?

quinsforever wrote:

Brennus wrote:Have to say I really enjoyed the forward battle myself. Sarries have a massive pack, but my God did the local Munster lads make these internationals look very average. I think Sarries visited the Munster 22 a grand total of 2 times in the whole game. With a tad bit more ambition and luck, this Munster team could've went for a try bonus point. Jeff teams struggling in Europe again.

comedy

i) munster have as many current internationals as saracens do
ii) munster only managed to score 1 try when sarries were down to 14 men. 2 line breaks in a whole match does not a try bonus point make
iii) again? like sarries made the semi and final in the last 2 years? that kind of struggling?

Yep, not that hard to understand really:

1) The local Munster forwards that played last night:
James Cronin - Cork
Dave Kilcoyne - Limerick
Duncan Casey - Cork
Stephen Archer - Cork
Dave Foley - Clonmel
Billy Holland - Cork
Paul O Connell - Limerick
Peter O Mahony - Cork
Tommy O Donnell - Cahir

2) Chose to go for the posts on 3 occassions when we were already more than a converted-try ahead. As I said, a bit more ambition and the try bp was on considering we were camped in the Sarries 22 for a lot of the 2nd half. Sarries were spent after an hour.

3) Yep, well done to Sarries in the last coupe of years for being the only Jeff representative at the business end. Just goes to show, even if you get a lucky route through the comp, you still have to go and win the games. But let's not ignore the elephant - where were the other Jeff teams?

where were the irish teams in the last 2 years once it got to the semis?

or finals?

pretty poor showing given the rest you are able to give your provincial stars in preparation for HC games. A luxury that AP and top14 sides could not afford.

at least we got that anomaly sorted so your teams will have to keep at least half an eye on their domestic competition in order to qualify for europe's top tier next year.

Quins if it wasn't for Munster getting "draw" to play in the south of france, i'm sure they would have reached the final at least once.

all if's and buts and totally pointless!

How is the semi draw working this year? lets hope it's meritocratic.

quinsforever wrote:at least we got that anomaly sorted so your teams will have to keep at least half an eye on their domestic competition in order to qualify for europe's top tier next year.

Good point - You would think that the Jeff teams would be a bit more competitive now than they were in the last few years, wouldn't you? At least that's one less excuse that will come our way!

i love how so many people are declaring the AP weak, again, after only Round 2.

pretty funny.

check out the "taking the urine" thread. much more of the same pointless early doomsaying

quinsforever wrote:i love how so many people are declaring the AP weak, again, after only Round 2.

pretty funny.

check out the "taking the urine" thread. much more of the same pointless early doomsaying

Pretty poor argument if you ask me. That's goes in the 'oh no we're not' folder I think.

Jeez, anyone would think the Irish teams have put 50 points on the board against every team with how some of the posters are going on here!

It's a shame Sale were denied a probable win last week due to a refereeing blunder, as assuming Clermont win tomorrow that would make things much more interesting in this pool ...

quinsforever wrote:where were the irish teams in the last 2 years once it got to the semis?

I don't know quins...ask Munster.

dont need to ask munster. i know they were there. might ask the rest though.

was merely highlighting brennus argument actually shows the pro12 sides as having been weaker in the last 2 years based on as he said the "business end of the tournament"

Heaf wrote:It's a shame Sale were denied a probable win last week due to a refereeing blunder, as assuming Clermont win tomorrow that would make things much more interesting in this pool ...

A more interesting pool?  

You see, here we go - the same old arguments keep hitting the surface, the same old comments, the same old opinions - and this is the NEW competition pin-Tinkywinky detail designed by PRL to end all the old arguments, comments and opinions.

Already, after only two weekends (not through the second one yet) we've already heard that the pools might be 'more interesting' if certain sides did this and other sides didn't get away with that.  
And we've heard about the quick arrival of the 'boring' drudge forward-slop game.  
And the ref is already stopping the 'better' side winning the games and weighing the competition back on the minnow sides who......................em, probably shouldn't still be allowed to be in it.

The cull was too merciful.  Too many minnows were still allowed into the Prime contest and now will probably ruin it by winning games they shouldn't win.  The Chimney Pots will be seriously pi-ssed if this keeps up

SecretFly wrote:

Heaf wrote:It's a shame Sale were denied a probable win last week due to a refereeing blunder, as assuming Clermont win tomorrow that would make things much more interesting in this pool ...

A more interesting pool?  

You see, here we go - the same old arguments keep hitting the surface, the same old comments, the same old opinions - and this is the NEW competition pin-Tinkywinky detail designed by PRL to end all the old arguments, comments and opinions.

Already, after only two weekends (not through the second one yet) we've already heard that the pools might be 'more interesting' if certain sides did this and other sides didn't get away with that.  
And we've heard about the quick arrival of the 'boring' drudge forward-slop game.  
And the ref is already stopping the 'better' side winning the games and weighing the competition back on the minnow sides who......................em, probably shouldn't still be allowed to be in it.

The cull was too merciful.  Too many minnows were still allowed into the Prime contest and now will probably ruin it by winning games they shouldn't win.  The Chimney Pots will be seriously pi-ssed if this keeps up

About the only true part of your whole ramble.

A rambling thorn bush............. I catch a few and others get away to fight another day.

SecretFly wrote:A rambling thorn bush.............  I catch a few and others get away to fight another day.

Unlikely to catch many any more - as frankly your once witty attempts a now just tired and dull repetition.

Thanks Tiger.  I irritate you.  Confirmation of fact noted.  Well, we can't be liked by everyone...can we?

Just saw the highlights, what was the reason given for conways try to be disallowed?

SecretFly wrote:

Heaf wrote:It's a shame Sale were denied a probable win last week due to a refereeing blunder, as assuming Clermont win tomorrow that would make things much more interesting in this pool ...

A more interesting pool?  

You see, here we go - the same old arguments keep hitting the surface, the same old comments, the same old opinions - and this is the NEW competition pin-Tinkywinky detail designed by PRL to end all the old arguments, comments and opinions.

Already, after only two weekends (not through the second one yet) we've already heard that the pools might be 'more interesting' if certain sides did this and other sides didn't get away with that.  
And we've heard about the quick arrival of the 'boring' drudge forward-slop game.  
And the ref is already stopping the 'better' side winning the games and weighing the competition back on the minnow sides who......................em, probably shouldn't still be allowed to be in it.

The cull was too merciful.  Too many minnows were still allowed into the Prime contest and now will probably ruin it by winning games they shouldn't win.  The Chimney Pots will be seriously pi-ssed if this keeps up

Jeez calm down, I only meant it would mean all teams would be on roughly the same points.

quinsforever wrote:where were the irish teams in the last 2 years once it got to the semis?

or finals?

pretty poor showing given the rest you are able to give your provincial stars in preparation for HC games. A luxury that AP and top14 sides could not afford.

at least we got that anomaly sorted so your teams will have to keep at least half an eye on their domestic competition in order to qualify for europe's top tier next year.

Showing your ignorance there,Irish traditionally like to get our main players out on the pitch in the weeks leading up to the HC.Leinster v Munster is usually the week before the first HC matches and we always put out our 1st teams for those matches.We rotate in other parts of the season but so do the AP sides and the French are probably the worst with their home and away teams.

quinsforever wrote:where were the irish teams in the last 2 years once it got to the semis?

or finals?

pretty poor showing given the rest you are able to give your provincial stars in preparation for HC games. A luxury that AP and top14 sides could not afford.

at least we got that anomaly sorted so your teams will have to keep at least half an eye on their domestic competition in order to qualify for europe's top tier next year.

Munster got their tactics spot on for the Sarries game. Sarries one weakness is that they are poor under a high ball so of course Munster were going to go after them that way. You hardly think Munster were going to throw the ball around with Ashton & Strettle hanging around waiting to take off? Munster also used their lineout well and were not afraid to kick the corners. Simple gameplan - play in the right areas of the pitch and give them nothing (but 3pts). Job done.

The best laugh is Ben Kay going on about CJ Stander and how Munster don't play act. He must not have watched Alan Quinlan in the 2008 final getting Fabien Peleous sent off

fiar play for the honesty sin e!

the tactics were spot on. but it would only have really pleasing to a munster or irish fan (although not all obviously). was hardly quality precision rugby. far too much randomness introduced by infield kicking for me to like it. ok arries might have a slight wekaness under the high ball, but that could very easily have backfired.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:where were the irish teams in the last 2 years once it got to the semis?

or finals?

pretty poor showing given the rest you are able to give your provincial stars in preparation for HC games. A luxury that AP and top14 sides could not afford.

at least we got that anomaly sorted so your teams will have to keep at least half an eye on their domestic competition in order to qualify for europe's top tier next year.

Showing your ignorance there,Irish traditionally like to get our main players out on the pitch in the weeks leading up to the HC.Leinster v Munster is usually the week before the first HC matches and we always put out our 1st teams for those matches.We rotate in other parts of the season but so do the AP sides and the French are probably the worst with their home and away teams.

1 week does not "weeks" make. read plenty of comments about none of your centrally contracted players appearing in the first several pro12 matches.

quinsforever wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

quinsforever wrote:where were the irish teams in the last 2 years once it got to the semis?

or finals?

pretty poor showing given the rest you are able to give your provincial stars in preparation for HC games. A luxury that AP and top14 sides could not afford.

at least we got that anomaly sorted so your teams will have to keep at least half an eye on their domestic competition in order to qualify for europe's top tier next year.

Showing your ignorance there,Irish traditionally like to get our main players out on the pitch in the weeks leading up to the HC.Leinster v Munster is usually the week before the first HC matches and we always put out our 1st teams for those matches.We rotate in other parts of the season but so do the AP sides and the French are probably the worst with their home and away teams.

1 week does not "weeks" make. read plenty of comments about none of your centrally contracted players appearing in the first several pro12 matches.

Yeah that's what I mean,we rotate just like the AP sides.Your teams just rest their players at different times.You should also understand that we haven't changed our rotation policies,we still don't overplay our internationals so nothing has changed.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:where were the irish teams in the last 2 years once it got to the semis?

or finals?

pretty poor showing given the rest you are able to give your provincial stars in preparation for HC games. A luxury that AP and top14 sides could not afford.

at least we got that anomaly sorted so your teams will have to keep at least half an eye on their domestic competition in order to qualify for europe's top tier next year.

Munster got their tactics spot on for the Sarries game. Sarries one weakness is that they are poor under a high ball so of course Munster were going to go after them that way. You hardly think Munster were going to throw the ball around with Ashton & Strettle hanging around waiting to take off? Munster also used their lineout well and were not afraid to kick the corners. Simple gameplan - play in the right areas of the pitch and give them nothing (but 3pts). Job done.

The best laugh is Ben Kay going on about CJ Stander and how Munster don't play act. He must not have watched Alan Quinlan in the 2008 final getting Fabien Peleous sent off  

Some people seem to think that was in some way random. Obviously they don't understand the Munster way (or more accurately the Shannon way). That was as well an executed game plan as any over the last couple of years...

There also seems to be some confusion as to what constitutes entertainment. For most people its winning which is what we did. How is completely irrelevant Sarries usually make their scores from broken play after the opposition make mistakes...we nullified that and then squeezed the life out of them. In all the games against them its our biggest win. It should have been more..still very enjoyable though

quinsforever wrote:fiar play for the honesty sin e!

the tactics were spot on. but it would only have really pleasing to a munster or irish fan (although not all obviously). was hardly quality precision rugby. far too much randomness introduced by infield kicking for me to like it. ok Sarries might have a slight wekaness under the high ball, but that could very easily have backfired.

The tactics were spot on, Quins. The high balls were a significant part of it, but that will only work if you have good chasers to ensure it doesn't backfire. In that respect Andrew Conway was very good last night - nearly grabbed and opportunist try from the kick rebound.

What I should add though isthat Sarries only weakness was not just under the high ball. Their game plane was also a weakness. In the early stages of the game they attempted to send Billy Vunipola rampaging through the 12 / 13 channel. This was a reasonable game plan given every Munster fan knows how poor our 12-13 are at the moment (see my post from last night on this). However, if we could all see it then sure as anything Axel and his coaching team are also aware of it but ... Munster has a bit of an injury problem in the midfield. So how do you deal with that? Well you use your other players to support the defence in your vulnerable area. It is not quantum physics (rocket science is dead easy so that is a rubbish metaphor). So when BV came charging he found himself facing a red wall with no way through especially as the chop tackle was used effectively all night. Unfortunately for Sarries they were unable to conjure a Plan B - a contributory factor to their loss of the game.

And whether or not you are an Irish or a Munster fan, kudos to the coaches for identifying a significant weakness and preparing a game plan which absolutely nullified that weakness.

Golden wrote:Just saw the highlights, what was the reason given for conways try to be disallowed?

Couldn't hear the conversation between ref and TMO, Golden, so not a clue. Commentators didn't say why either. We are all pretty much in the dark.

KiaRose wrote:

Golden wrote:Just saw the highlights, what was the reason given for conways try to be disallowed?

Couldn't hear the conversation between ref and TMO, Golden, so not a clue.  Commentators didn't say why either.  We are all pretty much in the dark.

When he initially goes down the ball is a fraction short, with his hand underneath. As he slides over the line and the ball makes contact with it his elbow also goes into touch.

Heaf wrote:
Jeez calm down, I only meant it would mean all teams would be on roughly the same points.

Wrong emphasis.  My point is that some here pretend they don't like to see their sides win every game in their pool (easily and by as many points as possible - IF possible)  That's the ideal. And those fans with teams in the ERCC who claim that's not what they want are being disingenuous at the very least.

We all want wins for the sides we support - and we want those wins to be as easy as our favourite sides can manage.  As neutrals we can enjoy close combat games - yes - and as supporters of particular sides, we can enjoy in hindsight a close-quarters game (IF our side won).

So my point is that we should all stop pretending something New was invented in the new competition - old instincts still motivate us all.  We pretend we want close contests right to the edge of the final pool games, the concept is well marketed by the TV people - but it's simply not true, not if you're involved.  

Saracens fans would have been rightfully delighted had their side crushed Munster in an away win.  It's what they would have come to do and what they would have planned for and it's what their fans would have dearly wished for.

Instincts haven't changed.  We want our sides to win all their games as easily as possible.  We don't want our sides losing any games to make the pools more 'interesting' for the neutrals.  We don't care about the demands of neutrals when our sides are playing.  AND...we hope we get a pool more inclined to 'Weak' sides than to strong sides.

Instincts haven't changed with the birth of HEC Mark2.

Blimey Fly you do like you're own voice!

I understand what Heaf meant, he's a neutral to the pool so if it was a bit closer it'd be more entertaining for him. Simples!

As to the try getting disallowed, there is the chance that the video ref thought the grounding was short, and then as the Munster player slid forward he rolled on to his arm and had that between the ball and the ground by the time he went in to touch. It's pretty impossible to know for sure as you can't really hear the convo and 9 times out of 10 I think it'd have been given.

yappysnap wrote:Blimey Fly you do like you're own voice!

I understand what Heaf meant, he's a neutral to the pool so if it was a bit closer it'd be more entertaining for him. Simples!

I don't twitter...correct.  If you guys read all this bunk on your smart-phones whilst walking on a tightrope across the Grand canyon, then tough!  Sorry my extra words are making the journey more dangerous  I suggest you turn off the bloody smartphone.  

Whichever way you read Heaf, the summation is that it would have been better for one of his AP sides had Munster lost one of their games over the last two weeks.  
Simples.  
I'm longwinded (for the new Tweetin' generation) but not an idiot.  And Heaf ain't an idiot either.  He's an English APer .. he knows where his loyalties lie - meaning he ain't 'neutral'.

Fly,

Yes I support an AP team (but unfortunately one currently in the challenge cup) and I can't claim to be completely neutral.  

However I simply said I thought if Munster hadn't won last week it would make things more interesting in this pool - which for me it would, although I appreciate that doesn't apply to a Munster fan.

I also wasn't trying to make any statements about this version of the competition versus what went before.

I still think it's unfortunate that Munster are further ahead in their pool than perhaps they should be due to the officiating blunder, but I'd feel that if they were playing a non AP team too simply due to my sense of fairness.  Although again I admit if it were my team that had benefitted I'd be happy enough.

I agree we all want our own teams to hammer the rest but my post was simply about what would have made things more interesting for me ... nothing more, nothing less.

Heaf wrote:Fly,

Yes I support an AP team (but unfortunately one currently in the challenge cup) and I can't claim to be completely neutral.  

However I simply said I thought if Munster hadn't won last week it would make things more interesting in this pool - which for me it would, although I appreciate that doesn't apply to a Munster fan.

I also wasn't trying to make any statements about this version of the competition versus what went before.

I still think it's unfortunate that Munster are further ahead in their pool than perhaps they should be due to the officiating blunder, but I'd feel that if they were playing a non AP team too simply due to my sense of fairness.  Although again I admit if it were my team that had benefitted I'd be happy enough.

I agree we all want our own teams to hammer the rest but my post was simply about what would have made things more interesting for me ... nothing more, nothing less.

What officiating blunder would that be...just interested given your slightly neutral point of view?

I suspect he means when Sale were 23-7 up before HT and had a try denied because just as the Sale player was dotting down the ref blew early for the O'Donnell infringement rather than playing advantage.

Sale only have themselves to blame for failing to score from the resulting penalty, but 99 times out of 100 the advantage is played for at least a couple of seconds and the try would have been awarded.

Because the sale player had knocked it on and O'Donnell had allegedly tackled the player without the ball. A bit harsh on O'Donnell. Another whinge then. For a second I thought he was talking about the multiple sale infringements in the second half without a yellow being threatened or the flopping all over the ball. Maybe it was the disallowed try against Saracens by Conway. So much to chose from

The Sale player didn't get to touch it, he'd already been taken out, O'Donnell batted it back. Lucky escape for Munster. Clermont and Saracens will put bonus point wins on Sale there though, so won't make any real difference to the end result of the pool.

markb wrote:The Sale player didn't get to touch it, he'd already been taken out, O'Donnell batted it back.  Lucky escape for Munster.  Clermont and Saracens will put bonus point wins on Sale there though, so won't make any real difference to the end result of the pool.

Why are you so certain Clermont and Saracens will put bonus point wins on Sale?

they have an agreement that any sides with two losses wont try if it helps stop the provinces from qualifying

Good answer.  I thought it must have been something so sweet - we all know the certainty of a lost cause side isn't in the competition itself  

Yes I was referring to the try denied by the ref blowing his whistle a half a second before the Sale player touched the ball down.

SecretFly wrote:

markb wrote:The Sale player didn't get to touch it, he'd already been taken out, O'Donnell batted it back.  Lucky escape for Munster.  Clermont and Saracens will put bonus point wins on Sale there though, so won't make any real difference to the end result of the pool.

Why are you so certain Clermont and Saracens will put bonus point wins on Sale?

Sale aren't playing well this season, they're third from bottom in the AP. Saracens comfortably got a bonus point win over them only a few weeks back despite a 2nd string pack and two sequential yellows. Clermont are warming up in the competition, don't face them away till the last pool weekends (which will be after 4 losses), have the right sort of game to punish Sale and will do so with tries. Clermont will win the Pool.

markb wrote:The Sale player didn't get to touch it, he'd already been taken out, O'Donnell batted it back.  Lucky escape for Munster.  Clermont and Saracens will put bonus point wins on Sale there though, so won't make any real difference to the end result of the pool.

Like I said..another whingefest

Saracens were tactically naive and inept. No plan B either. Munster do what they do well - they grind opposition down - it's predictable but effective.

Every man and his dog knew what Munster were going to do yet there was no response from Saracens.

I said before the game that Saracens would have won if they played like they did like vs Clermont - quite clearly they did not. Of course credit must go to Munster's defence and overall streetwise attitude but Saracens were tactically out thought. If something is not going your way then you change your style.

Someone compared it to the Saracens vs Toulon game - that's an apt description. On that day they were tactically outmanevoured and refused to use a plan B till it was too late.

Saracens were at their most dangerous early in the 2nd half - which is when it would have been intelligent to bring on Hodgson for a rusty Farrell Jr.

I knew there was no coming back when Saracens steadfastly refused to bring on Hodgson. The only player not to come on - absolutely barmy.

Taking off Barrington - I've mentioned it - what also a stupid decision - when someone is playing well you shouldn't really take them off unless they have a knock or carrying an injury which affects performance.

Of course that YC for Gill gave Munster the momentum needed to score 8 points which won the match.

Well done Munster but silly silly Saracens (it's why Saracens haven't won any silverware recently).

Decent words, beshocked. No Munster man here to say so but in this cut-throat world of ERCC and fans chewing into each other, it's right to acknowledge grace.

Having watched it again last night here's my take on the match - Munster could have and should have won by more, given previous incidents I don't know how Gill didn't get a red card, and having watched it over and over again including in slow-mo I have no idea why Conway's try wasn't given.

So having negotiated the opening 2 matches successfully next up will be the crucial middle section where I fully expect Munster (hopefully having won at home) to target the away match against Clermont.

They've gone close away to Toulon and Clermont over the last couple of years and the time is right for another 'generation defining' away win in France.

Of course alot of that depends on how many injuries we suffer during the Autumn Internationals.

Foley above anything else certainly knows the mental ingredients necessary for Europe.... something Penney probably just didn't get and was unfamiliar with.

So the Animal is certainly returning to Munster.  And yes, it'll be needed to once again push back the flow of perfection coming from Toulon and Clermont.  
Those teams can't be bluffed by better tactical play, they'll simply have to be hit by a cusading army of bile and fury.  That's what all sides will need, English or Irish or Scottish or French.  The Harlem Globetrotting Allstar sides need to be hit with something angry and never-say-die.  Munster have both in their locker and just need to unleash them.

Shame Munster have lost their reputation of being silent during kicks.

Heard one screaming banshee shouting during Bosch's kick attempt.

Munster Mac red card? Really? He didn't plant the player's face into the ground did he?

It wasn't exactly as if the Munster player went off injured - he was fine. He did a bit of play acting too. Probably something you approve of.


Secretfly Clermont have already been beaten by better tactical play. It's just teams need to be intelligent every single time they play.

beshocked wrote:1. Shame Munster have lost their reputation of being silent during kicks.

Heard one screaming banshee shouting during Bosch's kick attempt.

2. Munster Mac red card? Really? He didn't plant the player's face into the ground did he?

It wasn't exactly as if the Munster player went off injured - he was fine. He did a bit of play acting too. Probably something you approve of.


Secretfly Clermont have already been beaten by better tactical play. It's just teams need to be intelligent every single time they play.

1. Yea, one person makes a bit of noise in a crowd of 26,000. Munster have definately lost their way. (by the way, I believe there were also some Sarries fans at the game who might not have known about the tradition)
2. You don't have to plant a players face in the ground to get a red card. He was perhaps lucky that one of his team mates was there to break his fall. It was a dangerous tackle and I think he is lucky it wasn't a red card. though I'm happy enough with a yellow. As for the play acting. None of us minded Alan Quinlan's playacting that got Fabien Pelous sent off in the HCup Final in '08. CJ has obviously been watching Munster DVD's of winning backrow performances.

PS - should you not be lecturing your own team about how pointless it is to take swallow dives in the middle of the pitch. That was a good laugh.

Interesting that you mention performances - RugbyNet's Top 10 Performances in Pool 1, Round 2 have 5 Munster Players and 5 Clermont players. No Saracens or Sale Players make the Shortlist.

http://www.rugby.net/topten.html#List:listId=5166483822870528