Review/Discussion of the state of the England team

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Just a quick review/discussion on the status of the England team.  Not necessarily a complete analysis but I sure others will fill in the missing gaps and provide their own views.

England were very disappointing and stalled during the Autumn Internationals. Without a dominance scrum they could very easy have lost to Australia.

FORWARDS:

Generally went well, but England should not complacent as next up is Wales away at the MS, where they were bullied last time.

If Corbisiero and Cole can regain form and fitness, England will be strong at prop.  Brookes quietly improving with some younger guys waiting in the wings.

Hooker seems to be a weak area though, Webber did not look wonderful over the week-end.  Hartley a bit undisciplined.

Quite a good groups of locks, but I would still prefer an Attwood or Slater type.  Occasionally Lawes and Launchbury look a little light-weight.  Also though competition is very tight, I would like to have seen how Kitchener would fare.

Backrow is a point of discussion and debate.  The number eights look good with Vunipola coming back to form and future options in Ewers and others (Hughes?).  I think Robshaw almost always plays well but I would not mind seeing Garvey at blindside, to do the tight stuff and allow the other back five forwards to excel in the loose.


BACKS:

Not totally bleak but how to get them playing?

Fullback seems set with Brown and I wonder if Watson should be seen as his successor.

Scrum-half is fairly well served by Youngs and Care if he can recover his form.  Also Simpson can look a good player?

Fly-half is well stocked with Ford, Farrell, Myler and Cips.  Indeed at the week-end I thought Myler had a great game.

At wing there are lots of options in May, Watson, Rokoduguni, Nowell, Wade, Yarde and Benjamin has come on a bit as well. I would love to see Wade get a go sometime.

Centre has been a problem which is annoying has there seems to be talent available.  Tuilagi, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph, Barritt, Slade, Twelvestrees, etc. all seem good players

So if everyone was fit and on Form, I would go with: -

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Launchbury
Garvey
Robshaw
Morgan

Youngs
Ford
Watson
Burrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

Would definitely have Lawes on the bench in case the line went belly-up. Have not yet found room for Wade but would have Eastmond on the bench.  However in most positions there is a lot of competition, so sometimes the choice could go either way.
Perhaps England’s real weakness is having several good players (with the sum being better than the parts), but with very few world class options.

yappysnap wrote:Did Kruis avoid getting banned for that spear tackle then?

3 week ban. Rules him out of Saxons game but free for 6Ns

Fair enough, seems the right amount of time off. Hopefully Kitchener will get a chance in either of the sides.

Just to confirm the locks available for the first game are:
Attwood
Parling
Kruis
Kitchener

Bound to be Attwood and Parling seeing as one is the incumbant and Parling as the only guy who regularly leads the lineout. I'd like Kitchener on the bench but it'll be Kruis.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bound to be Attwood and Parling seeing as one is the incumbant and Parling as the only guy who regularly leads the lineout. I'd like Kitchener on the bench but it'll be Kruis.

Agree, though doesn't Attwood call for Bath?

Hooper I believe. They were getting into a bit of a pickle when he wasn't on the field this weekend as well.

Kitchener is pretty good at the lineout though...and offers more around the field than Parling IMO.

And Attwood is an excellent lineout leader. Does it for Bath doesn't he?

Hooper does I think. Although Attwood might be backup. Parling has been in the squad. We're two first choice locks down, who are both young. I can see this being damage control rather than bringing in yet another new face.

At the end of the NZ series, it was quite clear that in the coaches minds, Parling was first choice and one of the team's leaders. Since then he has been out due to concussion and Attwood especially, but also Kruis, have been able to push their claims.

I cannot see that the coaches will do anything other than select Attwood at 4, Parling at 5 and Kruis in the 19 shirt. Lawes will be the 4th Lock in the 6Ns squad, but will be temporarily replaced by Kitchener for early week training.

I just think Kitchener would add more bulk and has been playing well.  I guess a choice between potential and experience, but Kitchener would be more battle hardened.

I think Kitch is better - than Parling and Kruis. Still expect to see the other two ahead of him in th eengland pecking order.

Has Kitchener called the lineout at Leicester much LT and how has it gone?

LondonTiger wrote:At the end of the NZ series, it was quite clear that in the coaches minds, Parling was first choice and one of the team's leaders. Since then he has been out due to concussion and Attwood especially, but also Kruis, have been able to push their claims.

Only momentarily, what with Launchbury being tired and sh**ged out after a long squawk. If all fit and fresh I'd still assume that Lawes and Launchbury would start. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see him start with Attwood in the circumstances though. We've got enough experienced locks this close to the world cup and they'll stick with the ones who've performed in the past, I'd guess.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Has Kitchener called the lineout at Leicester much LT and how has it gone?

 He is the caller when Parling not been there.

 Considering Leicester have lead Europe in lineout completions in all comps I think 96% he has done very well.

Reinforces the benefit of having him on the bench. Personally would still have Parling ahead in the pecking order.

#atm the starting pair should be Attwood and Parling and then IMO have Kitchener on the bench.

 Although Leicester will be down in locks.

Attwood and Parling have to start against wales, also id be inclined to give Jordan Joseph a start after playing so well against Toulouse. He gave the best centre performance I've seen since Tuilangi vs New Zealand in 2012.
My line up for Wales:
Marler
Hartely
Wilson
Parling
Attwood
Haskell
Robshaw
Vunipola
Youngs
Ford
Watson
Burrell
Joseph
Yarde(hasnt played particularly well this season, but has all the attributes to be Englands best winger in years)
Brown

I think that's pretty close to what it will be. I'm expecting Wood to start with Haskell on the bench. May to start over Yarde. Then I fully expect the centre partnership to be Twelvetrees/Farrell at 12, with Burrell at 13.

rugbygod2 Yarde? Really?

For me he would be behind May,Wade,Varndell,Banahan,Ashton,Strettle,Rokodiguini,Benjamin,Watson,Sharples and Nowell.

Thankfully beshocked, you aren't on the England selection team so he will be part of the squad if not on the bench. Would expect Watson and May to continue to start

Yarde has looked a bit more like his old self in the past few games, I'm sure the Quins fans would back me up on that?

A bit more yes, but not in international form. I agree with those who say the Saxons lineup v Wolfhounds this year should be chosen from players a bit nearer the first XV than usual, and would play Yarde in that, but he wouldn't be near first choice at the moment.

Bambam fair enough perhaps Yarde has suddenly woken up. Most of the games I have seen him he's been pretty ineffectual.

Would horrify me if they pick him on the bench still though.

I'd have Yarde in the Saxons too. For me it's May/Watson, followed by Wade and Banahan!

I reckon Wade won't get a go unless we have a spate of injuries like we've had in the locks, shame as I would love to see him get a run in the 6N. I am a fan of May and Watson though, if Brown is on form that's probably as dangerous a back 3 as we've had for many a year

BamBam wrote:Thankfully beshocked, you aren't on the England selection team so he will be part of the squad if not on the bench. Would expect Watson and May to continue to start

Yarde has looked a bit more like his old self in the past few games, I'm sure the Quins fans would back me up on that?

he is indeed playing much better. was our only standout player against a very strong wasps defense imo on saturday. made several breaks out of nothing.

i would put him on the bench. his power and pace offer something slightly different from may or watson, or indeed roko or wade.

One of the few real positives from the AI was having a wing combo that looks like it really works. There are good alternatives, and most of us would love to see more of Wade at this level, but May and Watson do look the part.

Looks like Manu is out for the entire 6 Nations 

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jan/19/manu-tuilagi-england-six-nations-leicester?CMP=share_btn_tw

i feel for him, but its time to rule manu out of the RWC too imo. unless he shows real form towards the end of the AP season.

too little gametime and fitness, and too many injuries. and we have far too many good otions who could really do with the opportunity to gel.

burrell at 12
jj at 13

with burgess an option to come on at 12 or 13

those 3 players could totally change how we feel about the attacking potential of our backline, especially outside an in-form Ford. and especially with May and Watson (or Yarde/wade etc) outside with real space, once defenders are dragged in to cover Burrell, JJ and Burgess.

This will be the fourth round of internationals Manu has missed since the Lions tour. He wasn't available for the 2013 Autumn round, only played one match in the 2014 Six Nations, and didn't feature this Autumn.

You'd think his constant absence might have helped us settle on other options but, as we know only too well, that hasn't happened.

It does look as if attempts to develop Twelvetrees as our playmaking centre haven't really come off. If Tuilagi fails to even make it to the World Cup, then the partnership Lancaster once probably envisaged as his first choice pairing will be out of the picture.

It will be fascinating to see whether Lancaster perseveres with Twelvetrees or if he now sees him behind Burrell, Barritt, Eastmond and even Joseph.

Almost everyone agrees that Lancaster should be settling on his combinations now but it is striking that there is so little consensus among pundits about who should actually be selected.

Not sure we should be ruling out Tuilagi even with his injuries; they guy is top class. Burgess is a long way from the England side.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure we should be ruling out Tuilagi even with his injuries; they guy is top class.

I doubt whether anyone is ruling him out. We are perhaps just being a bit fatalistic about his injury record, which is beginning to match post 2003 Wilkinson.

Is it the same injury or different ones? If it's the same then that's probably worse as it could be something that never really goes away. I'f their different then with a bit of luck he could be fit and in form for the RWC.

So England's centres to pick from should be:

Barrett
Burrell
Eastmond
Joseph
Twelvetrees

Four 12's and one out and out 13. From those id play Burrell and Joseph with Eastmond in the 23 shirt (both Eastmond or Joseph can cover wing).

yappysnap wrote:Is it the same injury or different ones? If it's the same then that's probably worse as it could be something that never really goes away. I'f their different then with a bit of luck he could be fit and in form for the RWC.

Well this is a recurrence of the one that caused him to miss the AIs, but prior to that it had all been different I think.

Manu is one of England’s top players in a position where we are average and unsettled. He’s also an iconic member of our side. But if we can’t see that his constant injuries are telling us something about him then we’re delude. If I was Stewie I’d officially rest the guy for a year - give him chance to work on the physical aspects of his game and body that are so clearly troubling him and hope he can return to test rugby after the RWC. Otherwise the poor guy is going to have a very short and frustrating (not to say damaging) rugby career.

I’d also say that Corbs (and maybe even Cole) are in the same boat. Top level rugby is becoming too attritional.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Manu is one of England’s top players in a position where we are average and unsettled. He’s also an iconic member of our side. But if we can’t see that his constant injuries are telling us something about him then we’re delude. If I was Stewie I’d officially rest the guy for a year - give him chance to work on the physical aspects of his game and body that are so clearly troubling him and hope he can return to test rugby after the RWC. Otherwise the poor guy is going to have a very short and frustrating (not to say damaging) rugby career.

I’d also say that Corbs (and maybe even Cole) are in the same boat. Top level rugby is becoming too attritional.

Cole has just had 9 months out, i believe he just has an ankle injury at the moment, nothing major and isn't being rushed back. Same with Manu, i think it was a recurrence of an existing injury which is why he's been given a lot long out. For me it would be daft to rest him for a year when we have a world cup on home soil. - He will be fit and ready well before the start of it, mean while we get to bed in some other options.

Strange comments on Manu. For me he is clearly a world class wrecking ball who has and can make a difference against the best opposition in the world. We are hosting a RWC and yet some people want to rest him for a whole year? Crazy. If he is fit then he should return quickly to the fold. His fitness is an issue, but if he he has a run of games for Leicester and shows some form then we would be very foolish to ignore him. Who are the alternatives? I rate JJ and hope he gets selected V Wales, but imagine an injury to our 13 in the RWC and we have to go with BB when Manu is actually fit and swimming off a tropical island somewhere....that would not be sensible. Same issue with all the long term injured players....as soon as they are back on the pitch it is purely a matter of form and nothing else.

Why are people still looking to drop May?? I cant work that one out personally....

Joseph is playing top class rugby now...and is consistent as well. He genuinely needs to be looked at especially if Manu is out.

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Burrell
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown / Foden

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why are people still looking to drop May?? I cant work that one out personally....

Joseph is playing top class rugby now...and is consistent as well. He genuinely needs to be looked at especially if Manu is out.

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Burrell
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown / Foden

Because 'people' tend fix their views on limited exposure and refuse to believe that players get better (and worse). May makes tackles, takes the high ball and is increasingly doing at international level what he does all the time at AP level, which is scare the whatsits out of defenders by attacking from anywhere with extreme pace.

Manu will be fine eventually, and he is only 23. At this point I would rather they just put together a plan to make sure he is fit for the start of the RWC. He is increasingly an iconic figure, despite (maybe because ) he isnt playing, and you know what a lift it will be to the fans and the team when he does make it onto the pitch.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why are people still looking to drop May?? I cant work that one out personally....

Joseph is playing top class rugby now...and is consistent as well. He genuinely needs to be looked at especially if Manu is out.

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Burrell
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown / Foden

Because 'people' tend fix their views on limited exposure and refuse to believe that players get better (and worse). May makes tackles, takes the high ball and is increasingly doing at international level what he does all the time at AP level, which is scare the whatsits out of defenders by attacking from anywhere with extreme pace.

Manu will be fine eventually, and he is only 23. At this point I would rather they just put together a plan to make sure he is fit for the start of the RWC. He is increasingly an iconic figure, despite (maybe because ) he isnt playing, and you know what a lift it will be to the fans and the team when he does make it onto the pitch.

One thing i think May needs to work on (actually Brown as well) in their communication. It's happened a fair few times now when they have both gone for the same ball resulting in a error.

Maybe im the only one not getting built up so much about Manu's importance...but theres more to centre play than being a 18 stone bulldozer.

Burrell is a powerful crashball runner...but he also showed a lot of shrewdness running excellent lines in the 6n...looking to attack the space.

Joseph has been in very good form this season offering a different style again.
Half the problem imo has been the lack of creativity at 10 to utilize the players.

Having Ford at 10...or even Cipriani changes the whole make up of the backs and gives us a more attacking onus...to simply being a one trick pony and banging Manu up the middle constantly.

And trust me the SH teams can tackle players like that all day long.

Its players with power AND a bit of guile and skill that causes the problems..

But the thing is that Manu does run good lines from time to time. One of the reasons he is rated so highly is that he scores a lot of tries, and that doesnt just come from running into and over people. Yes he does that a lot but its not all he does, and at least if there is no space he is still going to make yards.

And yes they do see players like that in the SH. We see other big lumps in the center in the NH too. Basteraud comes to mind and we all know what happened when Basteraud came up against Tuilagi

I dont want to just talk up Manu's performance in the one game, but he has taken NZ apart, and the number of current playing centers in the world game who have done so is very very small.

Maybe with a player like Ford or Cipriani at 10 we will see the benefits of Manu more running those lines then LIW. I value a player who can crash ball and carry 4 players on his back....but I like variation.

Billy Vunipola is very similar IMO. He too happily looks for contact.

We saw the value of Ben Morgan in the AI's because despite being a monster of a man and having the ability to crash with the best of them...he mixes his game up...actively looking for space to run into. It makes him a far advanced player to Billy V when he's on top form again just my opinion.

Ive said before on other threads I would love Billy to learn this ability...and he too would elevate into the top 8's in the world
.
I would like to see Manu run similar but maybe hasn't been helped having Farrell at 10.
Indeed Burrell has shown far better angled running during his time at 13 for England.

Ben Foden has ruptured his ACL, and is most likely out of RWC

And that's his England career over.

What real shame for the lad. Injuries have blighted his career....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maybe with a player like Ford or Cipriani at 10 we will see the benefits of Manu more running those lines then LIW. I value a player who can crash ball and carry 4 players on his back....but I like variation.

Billy Vunipola is very similar IMO. He too happily looks for contact.

We saw the value of Ben Morgan in the AI's because despite being a monster of a man and having the ability to crash with the best of them...he mixes his game up...actively looking for space to run into. It makes him a far advanced player to Billy V when he's on top form again just my opinion.

Ive said before on other threads I would love Billy to learn this ability...and he too would elevate into the top 8's in the world
.
I would like to see Manu run similar but maybe hasn't been helped having Farrell at 10.
Indeed Burrell has shown far better angled running during his time at 13 for England.

i can remember some lovely lines he ran with Wilkinson at 10. He also runs those lines at club level and did it well with Ford at 10

I think we're all forgetting that the last time Manu played for England he was used terribly and was really ineffective. The two tactics were only ever a. Give the ball to Manu and hope for the best or b. Ignore him for large parts and make him spend his time rucking.

Everyone seems to think he'll be great when he comes back but there's no telling

yappysnap wrote:I think we're all forgetting that the last time Manu  played for England he was used terribly and was really ineffective. The two tactics were only ever a. Give the ball to Manu and hope for the best or b. Ignore him for large parts and make him spend his time rucking.

Everyone seems to think he'll be great when he comes back but there's no telling

The rucking thing does drive me nuts. He does spend way too much time tied up when he would create a lot more problems (and space) just by lurking nearby

Just a quick question for my English pals on here, how confident are you feeling about comming to Cardiff next month ?

BamBam wrote:Ben Foden has ruptured his ACL, and is most likely out of RWC

Very sad. Always thought he was a cultured player.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why are people still looking to drop May?? I cant work that one out personally....

Joseph is playing top class rugby now...and is consistent as well. He genuinely needs to be looked at especially if Manu is out.

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Burrell
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown / Foden

Because 'people' tend fix their views on limited exposure and refuse to believe that players get better (and worse). May makes tackles, takes the high ball and is increasingly doing at international level what he does all the time at AP level, which is scare the whatsits out of defenders by attacking from anywhere with extreme pace.

Agree with the bit about people fixing their views and struggling to adapt them - we are all guilty of it as sports fans from time to time though.

On the other point, it's an old saying but there really is no replacement for pace. Especially on the wing. Yes players also need the basics but some sheer pace and acceleration out wide immediately makes a team a different beast IF utilised well.

This is what excites me so much about our current batch of young wingers - May, Watson, Wade, Yarde, Rokoduguni, Sharples (he's coming back to form), etc. They are all players who have most of the basics and a good reading of the game but they also all have a mix of great pace, acceleration and power. It's a potent mix if we can use it.

Incidentally this is also a reason I would like to see Nowell move back to FB as I just feel he's missing that yard of pace to make him an absolutely top class international wing. At FB however his defensive attributes and power coming into the line could be very potent.

With Foden now likely to miss the World Cup versatility in that second FB slot could be very important, which leaves the door open to Watson or Nowell with their ability to cover wing. Or Goode with his ability to cover 10 - wouldn't be my choice personally but has his attributes.