Review/Discussion of the state of the England team

First topic message reminder :

Just a quick review/discussion on the status of the England team.  Not necessarily a complete analysis but I sure others will fill in the missing gaps and provide their own views.

England were very disappointing and stalled during the Autumn Internationals. Without a dominance scrum they could very easy have lost to Australia.

FORWARDS:

Generally went well, but England should not complacent as next up is Wales away at the MS, where they were bullied last time.

If Corbisiero and Cole can regain form and fitness, England will be strong at prop.  Brookes quietly improving with some younger guys waiting in the wings.

Hooker seems to be a weak area though, Webber did not look wonderful over the week-end.  Hartley a bit undisciplined.

Quite a good groups of locks, but I would still prefer an Attwood or Slater type.  Occasionally Lawes and Launchbury look a little light-weight.  Also though competition is very tight, I would like to have seen how Kitchener would fare.

Backrow is a point of discussion and debate.  The number eights look good with Vunipola coming back to form and future options in Ewers and others (Hughes?).  I think Robshaw almost always plays well but I would not mind seeing Garvey at blindside, to do the tight stuff and allow the other back five forwards to excel in the loose.


BACKS:

Not totally bleak but how to get them playing?

Fullback seems set with Brown and I wonder if Watson should be seen as his successor.

Scrum-half is fairly well served by Youngs and Care if he can recover his form.  Also Simpson can look a good player?

Fly-half is well stocked with Ford, Farrell, Myler and Cips.  Indeed at the week-end I thought Myler had a great game.

At wing there are lots of options in May, Watson, Rokoduguni, Nowell, Wade, Yarde and Benjamin has come on a bit as well. I would love to see Wade get a go sometime.

Centre has been a problem which is annoying has there seems to be talent available.  Tuilagi, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph, Barritt, Slade, Twelvestrees, etc. all seem good players

So if everyone was fit and on Form, I would go with: -

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Launchbury
Garvey
Robshaw
Morgan

Youngs
Ford
Watson
Burrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

Would definitely have Lawes on the bench in case the line went belly-up. Have not yet found room for Wade but would have Eastmond on the bench.  However in most positions there is a lot of competition, so sometimes the choice could go either way.
Perhaps England’s real weakness is having several good players (with the sum being better than the parts), but with very few world class options.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why are people still looking to drop May?? I cant work that one out personally....

Joseph is playing top class rugby now...and is consistent as well. He genuinely needs to be looked at especially if Manu is out.

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Burrell
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown / Foden

Because 'people' tend fix their views on limited exposure and refuse to believe that players get better (and worse). May makes tackles, takes the high ball and is increasingly doing at international level what he does all the time at AP level, which is scare the whatsits out of defenders by attacking from anywhere with extreme pace.

Manu will be fine eventually, and he is only 23. At this point I would rather they just put together a plan to make sure he is fit for the start of the RWC. He is increasingly an iconic figure, despite (maybe because ) he isnt playing, and you know what a lift it will be to the fans and the team when he does make it onto the pitch.

You are right about people having fixed views. I think the England management suffer from this. They have fixed views about certain players and nothing will change them. I do not know why they bother going to watch players because no matter how well certain players play they are ignored. I am confident that Jonathan Joseph will spend the next few weeks playing for Bath rather than England.

LordDowlais wrote:Just a quick question for my English pals on here, how confident are you feeling about comming to Cardiff next month ?

If as I suspect SL picks Burrell and Barritt and maybe even Farrell then not very confident at all. Trying to play Gatlandball against the experts seems dull to me.  If he picks Ford, Eastmond and Joseph then I would be confident.  

Two teams playing Gatlandball is not exactly going to be a festival of rugby.

LordDowlais wrote:Just a quick question for my English pals on here, how confident are you feeling about comming to Cardiff next month ?

Someone else asked a week or two again and nothing has changed for me. I still expect us to lose, even if we had no injuries. But I expect us to be competing. I expect that 60 mins in, I think deep down we could win this. If it's another hammering I'll be dissappointed.

Wales at home in the 1st game of the 6 nations.

I can only see Wales winning but then again its only the warm up act for the big game in the RWC. Thats the one from 2015 that will be remembered.

LordDowlais wrote:Just a quick question for my English pals on here, how confident are you feeling about comming to Cardiff next month ?

Nervous and excited in equal measure LD.

On a generic note excited as always for the 6N and a game at the Millennium. Also excited about the chance to see some young backs such as Ford and the wingers (May, Watson, Yarde, Wade ) get some more game time. In addition to this we have some guys such as Corbs, Vunipola, Cole and Youngs returning to the front row to add strength in depth. Plus I'd like to see how Kitchener would do if given a chance but expect Kruis to be ahead of him.

I'm nervous however about selection in the centre and to an extent the back row, as now seems to be a constant for an England fan.

In the centre we have 2 guys in Burrell and Joseph playing brilliantly at 12/13 for two top performing clubs. I feel their skill sets will complement each other and could work excellently with Ford at 10 and very promising back 3 options.

However I fear we will go with a less balanced partnership of 12.Barritt 13.Burrell. Whilst rock solid in defence, this would offer me little optimism of posing more of a threat in the wider channels which has been a very poor part of our game for too long.

Cheers for the replies lads, I think if Wales can gain parity with the English forwards in the set peice we will be ok, I think we have the edge at 6,7,8 and the breakdown could be a good contest, as long as Webb and Biggar can stay fit then I think we could just edge it.

Can I also make one request please......

When an England player gets the ball with the intention of taking it into contact or crash balling it....can they do so at FULL pelt and as aggressive as possible. Not the usual preamble up to the defence men and then head to the floor.

Only Barritt, May and Morgan have actually shown that ability. Its not difficult. It also means defenders (multiple) HAVE to tackle and get sucked in creating space.

LordDowlais wrote:Cheers for the replies lads, I think if Wales can gain parity with the English forwards in the set peice we will be ok, I think we have the edge at 6,7,8 and the breakdown could be a good contest, as long as Webb and Biggar can stay fit then I think we could just edge it.

Biggars the key for you guys if anyone can up their game on the day its him.

Forwards wise I think England have the edge at the moment.

TightHEAD wrote:I can only see Wales winning but then again its only the warm up act for the big game in the RWC.

I do not think this game will have any bearing on the WC, I for one would like to see Wales have a decent 6N, then some good warm up games and trying to gain confidence for the WC, but come the WC form will more than likely go out the window, and it will be who ever holds their nerve on the day. So for me it is one competition at a time, so lets win the 6N first.

Whatever the outcome its going to be one hell of a battle.

Wales quite rightly should be favourites, but I think both sets of supporters are reserving judgement until the actual team selections. There are too many different ways it could all go. Ford, Burrell and JJ or maybe even Eastmond? Or will Farrell and Barritt get a start? Totally changes things from an England perspective.

hugehandoff wrote:Wales quite rightly should be favourites, but I think both sets of supporters are reserving judgement until the actual team selections. There are too many different ways it could all go. Ford, Burrell and JJ or maybe even Eastmond? Or will Farrell and Barritt get a start? Totally changes things from an England perspective.

I'd go with this, in my mind its literally 50-50 unless one team gets selection completely wrong.

Comfort wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:Wales quite rightly should be favourites, but I think both sets of supporters are reserving judgement until the actual team selections. There are too many different ways it could all go. Ford, Burrell and JJ or maybe even Eastmond? Or will Farrell and Barritt get a start? Totally changes things from an England perspective.

I'd go with this, in my mind its literally 50-50 unless one team gets selection completely wrong.

Yes I agree, also, I think the same applies for the WC game as well.

For me on paper the Wales game is the hardest game for England ahead of the 6N even though Ireland are the better team. How will the team react this time given they seemed shellshocked last time. A few new faces may help or hinder. Wales for the win but only just.

if we use haskell, ford, and any combination of burrell/barritt/eastmond then England are favourites for me

england have very strong set piece and lineout, even missing our first choice second rows, and our scrum looks very solid.

haskell will go some way towards neutralising the power of the welsh 6,7,8. far more than wood imo.

however, if farrell is picked to start then i have to be honest i think we lose. because in a single swoop our backs become a defensively oriented selection. with ford at 10, england have the ability to threaten every time they get quick ball. especially with burrell and eastmond outside him. and may and watson on the wing. a genuinely threatening backline asks all kinds of positional questions of opposition defenders and creates gaps all over the field around the breakdown, in behind the rush defenders, on the outside, etc.

The loss of Lawes even with a returning Parling is 1 reason why I think we ll still see Wood at 6 to aid the lineout. That said I must be 1 of the few who doesnt see what extra Haskell will bring over him.

Are Wales probably lining up with Lydiate, Warbs and Faletau? If so, I don't think we're lacking in power regardless of who starts at 6

No 7&1/2 wrote:The loss of Lawes even with a returning Parling is 1 reason why I think we ll still see Wood at 6 to aid the lineout. That said I must be 1 of the few who doesnt see what extra Haskell will bring over him.

watch the full quins v wasps game. someone posted the youtube link to the entire match on another thread.

25 tackles, countless turnovers. his physical presence is far greater than wood's. in carrying and in tackle and in turnover. irrespective of how well everyone says that wood does the unseen stuff. i just dont see it

BamBam wrote:Are Wales probably lining up with Lydiate, Warbs and Faletau? If so, I don't think we're lacking in power regardless of who starts at 6

that sounds about right.

haskell however is custom built to play against Gatball. much more so than wood.

quinsforever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The loss of Lawes even with a returning Parling is 1 reason why I think we ll still see Wood at 6 to aid the lineout. That said I must be 1 of the few who doesnt see what extra Haskell will bring over him.

watch the full quins v wasps game. someone posted the youtube link to the entire match on another thread.

25 tackles, countless turnovers. his physical presence is far greater than wood's. in carrying and in tackle and in turnover. irrespective of how well everyone says that wood does the unseen stuff. i just dont see it

Ive watched plenty of both of them although not the Quins game. Just dont think Wood has underperformed for England to need to replace him. Haskell is being made out to be more physical than he is he has the look but rarely reproduces performances consistently to match.

I think he has done this season though. He went into the Samoa game having just lost nearly a stone through illness, but for Wasps has been fantastic. Wales would be the ideal game to try him as well, particularly if we're going with the Bath midfield. We would lose something in the lineout, but Attwood and Parling are both strong there and other countries don't tend to pick their back rows for their jumping. We'd still have plenty of options.

Yeah I suppose with Lawes out it would be useful to have someone who will give a genuine thumping tackle every so often, Parling definitely doesn't offer that

BBC reporting that Cipriani and Easter will be in the training squad (following the Times last week saying neither would and the Telegraph a day or so later saying Easter but not Cips).

Make of that what you will.

I still maintain that the Wales game will be won or lost in the scrum, and that England have three big positives in that area since they last went to Cardiff - i) Whichever way round Marler/Corbs and Wilson/Cole are deployed, it's a stronger scrummaging unit than we had 2 years ago; ii) One way or another, England will have an actual No 8 on the pitch; iii) French ref.

Centre pairing is probably the biggest worry. Burrell / Joseph has potential, but it's very close to the RWC to be trying yet another untried pairing, particularly in a crunch game. I could see Barritt/Burrell being the starting pair, with Joseph on the bench (and possibly phased in over the course of the 6N if it works well), but I think it's unlikely he'd start given what is at stake.

p.s. Did anyone realise in 2003 that Will Greenwood would be the retiring player we would miss the most? Be honest now...

supposedly Easter and Cipriani are going to be called up to be in the training squad. Can understand Cipriani, but a little unsure on Easter because of his age.

My pedantry wants to point out that Greenwood went on for another year after the WC but take your point. Too many greats were lost too close to each other to retirement or injury.

nathan wrote:supposedly Easter and Cipriani are going to be called up to be in the training squad. Can understand Cipriani, but a little unsure on Easter because of his age.

I'd only expect him to be involved in any match day squad if Vunipola gets injured. He's there in case he's needed for the World Cup with Morgan and Vunipola out. At least that's why I would have him.

nathan wrote:supposedly Easter and Cipriani are going to be called up to be in the training squad. Can understand Cipriani, but a little unsure on Easter because of his age.

perhaps he's more there to help coaching and training the young 8's in the squad? Or he's 1 injury off bench/starting.

Anyone worried it'll be
10 Farrell
12 Barritt
13 Burrell

I don't think it'll be that. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's Ford, Farrell and Barritt.

If Easter and Cipriani are involved, I wonder how this all relates to EPS selection which, after all, does determine what the RFU pays to clubs.

It's unlikely they count as frontline EPS choices but it's not clear they are Saxons names either. I wonder if they will officially count as injury cover call-ups.

Mind you, this could be another Wilkinson knighthood moment, although the Telegraph usually has a reliable inside line.

JJ has been in sensational form. It's great to see him fulfilling his potential. It's rare for England to have a centre playing that well - he has to start instead of Barritt. There are a few options at IC. I wouldn't be surprised if Twelvetrees started. I think Burrell's form has dipped slightly in the last few weeks, but on the other hand Eastmond is playing well and knows Ford and JJ well. England actually have some interesting option in the centres for once.

Since the experiment with goode coming in at second receiver from fullback stop Lancaster has consisting selected a 'distributing' 12. Initially that man was 12trees, I think he fits that mould to a tee, problem is his consistency. Eastmond has also been tried there and for me not done the business, although I do like him as a player.

This need for a ball playing, distributing, has a kicking game 12 has meant burrell has not played there despite doing so for his club. Barrett also has not played there for england for some time, question is; Is lancaster prepared to change this selection philosophy? I dont think so but we will see.

This means 12trees or eastmond (or farrell). I wouldnt advocate Slade at this stage, he is young his time will come, same with devoto. I think we have enough quality, capped and match fit options at centre we just have to get the game plan right and utilise them correctly.

Oh and they have to perform!

We said they are young and their time will come about a few players who ended up not getting a look in

The whole Twelvetrees thing is very interesting if you're a neutral (like me).

He has been perfectly competent for England, but I never recall having seen him playing 'very well' for his country. Whether that means he is not capable of doing so is another question entirely but surely Lancaster has his measure by now? I just watch Premiership games and struggle to believe that he's the best that you have.

This season he's probably the fourth or fifth best 12 in the league. Problem is SL has a game plan that calls for almost a second 10 at 12, only Twelvetrees can really do that bit he's just not been very good. I'd like to see the gameplan change now Fords in as he could use two bigger lumps or a bosher at 12 at least.

yappysnap wrote:This season he's probably the fourth or fifth best 12 in the league. Problem is SL has a game plan that calls for almost a second 10 at 12, only Twelvetrees can really do that bit he's just not been very good. I'd like to see the gameplan change now Fords in as he could use two bigger lumps or a bosher at 12 at least.

Is he even 5th best this season?

So, the squad will be announced in a few hours. Do you think you will be pleased, surprised or annoyed...???

George Carlin wrote:The whole Twelvetrees thing is very interesting if you're a neutral (like me).

He has been perfectly competent for England, but I never recall having seen him playing 'very well' for his country. Whether that means he is not capable of doing so is another question entirely but surely Lancaster has his measure by now? I just watch Premiership games and struggle to believe that he's the best that you have.

I wouldn't say he's been "perfectly competent" for England. At times he's been shocking (v high risk offloads, terrible passing, missed tackles (although it counts as 'made' in England if you bump into them apparantly so that's ok). Overall, he's been reasonably competent with odd occation of losing the plot.

(I realise your standards for centres might be different to mine, what with being Scottish and all ).

Telegraph is normally right, so the reaction of the last few posts is probably quite reflective

Pleased to see Cips get a go, the rest of the squad is there or thereabouts what I would choose, but the key is actual match day selection

My attitude has changed on certain players.

Wouldn't be against seeing this backline going by form

9.Care
10.Ford
11.May
12.Eastmond
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown


Probably should give the Ford-Eastmond-Joseph axis a go. Wouldn't be against Ford-Burrell-Joseph or even Ford-Barritt-Joseph.

I have criticised Ford for his defence but against Toulouse he handled the big boys well enough and stopped a try.

I would be horrified if it was Ford-Farrell-Barritt.

HammerofThunor wrote:

George Carlin wrote:The whole Twelvetrees thing is very interesting if you're a neutral (like me).

He has been perfectly competent for England, but I never recall having seen him playing 'very well' for his country. Whether that means he is not capable of doing so is another question entirely but surely Lancaster has his measure by now? I just watch Premiership games and struggle to believe that he's the best that you have.

I wouldn't say he's been "perfectly competent" for England. At times he's been shocking (v high risk offloads, terrible passing, missed tackles (although it counts as 'made' in England if you bump into them apparantly so that's ok).  Overall, he's been reasonably competent with odd occation of losing the plot.

(I realise your standards for centres might be different to mine, what with being Scottish and all ).

Its a difficult one in that the England backs have worked better when he has been playing, without him doing much is that great (the odd pass and a nice grubber for a Burrell try aside). There does seem to be a lot of that ex golden boy turned hate object thing going on. But he hasn't (yet?) turned into the player we all wanted him to be and there are a bunch of options.

As for the back line now I'd go with what Beshocked suggesteed

beshocked wrote:My attitude has changed on certain players.

Wouldn't be against seeing this backline going by form

9.Care
10.Ford
11.May
12.Eastmond
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown


Probably should give the Ford-Eastmond-Joseph axis a go. Wouldn't be against Ford-Burrell-Joseph or even Ford-Barritt-Joseph.

I have criticised Ford for his defence but against Toulouse he handled the big boys well enough and stopped a try.

I would be horrified if it was Ford-Farrell-Barritt.

I too would be horrified if Ford - Farrell - Barritt lined up, but I think my first choice would be Ford - Burrell - Joseph, just because at Bath, Ford does seem to use someone like Banahan as a crash ball option with the 2 smaller centres, but I don't think we have that option in our back 3. I also wouldn't be too keen watching Roberts run at Ford and Eastmond all day long without a bit of protection

I would be frustrated if Eastmond does not get more opportunities.  This season for Bath he has played very well and defended fairly well.  I would interested to see how he plays with Ford and Burrell (or Tuilagi when fit).  I hope England aren't missing a trick, even if he was on the bench as he can cover a few positions.  Almost ditto for Joseph.

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

George Carlin wrote:The whole Twelvetrees thing is very interesting if you're a neutral (like me).

He has been perfectly competent for England, but I never recall having seen him playing 'very well' for his country. Whether that means he is not capable of doing so is another question entirely but surely Lancaster has his measure by now? I just watch Premiership games and struggle to believe that he's the best that you have.

I wouldn't say he's been "perfectly competent" for England. At times he's been shocking (v high risk offloads, terrible passing, missed tackles (although it counts as 'made' in England if you bump into them apparantly so that's ok).  Overall, he's been reasonably competent with odd occation of losing the plot.

(I realise your standards for centres might be different to mine, what with being Scottish and all ).

Its a difficult one in that the England backs have worked better when he has been playing, without him doing much is that great (the odd pass and a nice grubber for a Burrell try aside). There does seem to be a lot of that ex golden boy turned hate object thing going on. But he hasn't (yet?) turned into the player we all wanted him to be and there are a bunch of options.

As for the back line now I'd go with what Beshocked suggesteed

To be honest I think it's a myth that Twelvetrees was the reason the England backs worked better.

Twelvetrees created one try in the 6 nations, I don't think he created anymore.

It was Care,Brown and Burrell's influence that was more important. Even Farrell was better than Twelvetrees.

The problem with Twelvetrees is that his influence and skill has been exaggerated. His supporters seem to believe that he orchestrated the whole backline effort in the 6 nations.

Twelvetrees has been okay for England, that's it. He's not been the messiah but he's also not been a disaster. He's been worse for Gloucester than England in my opinion.

I wouldnt disagree.

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

George Carlin wrote:The whole Twelvetrees thing is very interesting if you're a neutral (like me).

He has been perfectly competent for England, but I never recall having seen him playing 'very well' for his country. Whether that means he is not capable of doing so is another question entirely but surely Lancaster has his measure by now? I just watch Premiership games and struggle to believe that he's the best that you have.

I wouldn't say he's been "perfectly competent" for England. At times he's been shocking (v high risk offloads, terrible passing, missed tackles (although it counts as 'made' in England if you bump into them apparantly so that's ok).  Overall, he's been reasonably competent with odd occation of losing the plot.

(I realise your standards for centres might be different to mine, what with being Scottish and all ).

Its a difficult one in that the England backs have worked better when he has been playing, without him doing much is that great (the odd pass and a nice grubber for a Burrell try aside). There does seem to be a lot of that ex golden boy turned hate object thing going on. But he hasn't (yet?) turned into the player we all wanted him to be and there are a bunch of options.

As for the back line now I'd go with what Beshocked suggesteed

I don't think it's Golden Boy turned Hate. I had never thought Twelvetrees had played great. He had done ok, not bad enough to get dropped immediately, not good enough to keep hold of it if someone else showed great form. But I, and others with that opinion, were drowned out a bit by those who thought he was great (or at least good with great potential). Since then his form has dropped more and those that backed him have been quieter and those that had doubts are relatively louder. Different people saying different things.

One good thing is that Farrell seems to have regained some form, which is great. If only he had been given that chance to regain fitness by England (and Saracens). Then we perhaps wouldn't have that Munster game and some of the AI to hold against him.

Hammerofthunor agree with all that.

Just makes you wonder how the Munster game and AIs would have panned out if Farrell was not involved (when he quite clearly shouldn't have).

I've been a supporter of Twelvetrees as I do think he's made the team better overall but at no point have I said he's been fantastic but rather middle of the road, no great games no terrible. The alternative to the role he has is/was Eastmond who has had an abysmal game but then been better; he also has a better kicking game than Eastmond. We've also got Farrell who seems to be considered for that role. I've supported Twevetrees as to me he's the best fit at present.

If we were to move away from the ball playing 12 I wouldn't be too bothered but we still need balance. Barritt Burrell wouldn't work for me we’d need flair at 13.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30916098

Official squad

England Senior training squad:

Forwards:

Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers),Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Backs

Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Danny Care (Harlequins), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).