Ulster 2014/2015, Part 3

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Continue to discuss Ulsters lack of back row options and season in general

Again Doak has to take a lot of credit for turning the performance around at half time.

Still think the forwards look poorly coached though. VdM was pinged again for taking the man out in the air at the lineout - the exact same thing he was carded for last week - talk about not learning from mistakes. OTOH Williams getting penalised (and nearly getting a yellow) for simply clearing a ruck was harsh - even though Shingler looked hurt after it and didn't return after the break. A penalty count of 10 - 8 against Ulster was again too high but at least far more reflective of the game than last week.

I couldn't believe Wilson was MOTM - he was OK but nothing special. Gilroy should have got it for his game changing brilliance.

Expect a Shaun Edwards headline of 'Ban clearing out at rucks, it's dangerous'

clivemcl wrote:I can't believe how bad we can be and be joint top of the league. Doesn't say much for the league I must admit.

I think it's a bad year in terms of quality. All the top sides are going through some kind of transition phase.

The Great Aukster wrote:Again Doak has to take a lot of credit for turning the performance around at half time.

The funny thing is up to the last 3 matches the performances had dropped markedly in the 2nd half.
In the last 3 games it has been the opposite,
Did Doak have a Damascus moment after that dross in the 2nd half away to Treviso

Don't think so Geoff. I have looked up the games so far, with the half time scores first; then full time score. Taking the aggregate from each half and comparing them gives the difference between the halves (in brackets).

U6 - Scarlets 13; 25 - 20; -7 v 12 (19)
Edin 14 - U10; 17 - 20; -4 v 7 (11)
U10 - Trev 0; 43 - 3; 10 v 30 (20)
Trev 7 - U24; 20 - 24; 17 v -13 (-30)
Lein 9 - U6; 24 - 11; -3 v -10 (-7)
U10 - Conn 3; 13-10; 7 v -4 (-11)
Ospr 17 - U3; 31 - 20; -14 v 3 (17)
Muns 8 - U12; 21 - 20; 4 v -5 (-9)
U18 - Ospr 3; 25 - 16; 15 v -6 (-21)
U11 - Drag 3; 23 - 6; 8 v 9 (1)
U15 - Glas 6; 29 -9; 9 v 11 (2)
U13 - Edin 0; 30 - 0; 13 v 17 (4)
Zebr 0 - U0; 13 - 6; 0 v -7 (-7)
Blue 9 - U12; 9 -26; 3 v 14 (11)
U19 - Zebr 10; 33 - 13; 9 v 11 (2)
Scar 24 - U15; 32 - 32; -9 v 9 (18)

So that's 10 games where Ulster have been better in the second half compared to 6 where they have been worse. Ulster still won three of the six where they were worse in the second half. They have also turned around three losing first halves into two wins and a draw, with only the Munster game being lost where they were up in the first half.

The Great Aukster - have you really been impressed by Doak? Or do you think he gets unfair criticism?

Pete330v2 wrote:Expect a Shaun Edwards headline of 'Ban clearing out at rucks, it's dangerous'

What happened? I haven't been able to find a link yet.

Ok but you will notice that for 5 of the 6 games prior to the last 3 we had a negative and in that time some of the post HT performances were terrible.

For me Doak doesn't cut it

Interestingly heard from a player on Thursday (was in the 23 for both Scarlets and Edinburgh) that only Muller has proved clear coaching direction in the last few years.
A fair few players cant wait for Kiss to come back because they want a coach with a vision and one who has the authority to lead.

Anscombe apparently was a very very laid back coach (sometimes literally after a night out ) who let the players get on with it - sounds to me Muller ran the team.
That's when he wasn't screaming at Academy kids

Well I for one would be delirious to see johann return in some capacity (forwards coach?). 

I have given Doak plenty of stick (and I think it has deserved) but in fairness to him the results are coming and over the last few games I don't think the negatives can be put down to him too much.

Treviso- the big negative was that we butchered so many opportunities before cutting loose. That's basics and that's with the players
Edinburgh- I don't think our backs looked cohesive but cards played a factor.
Scarlets- humph had a mare and discipline was poor but he turned it round.

Standulstermen wrote:What I would say is that (depending on availability of players) we need to be punishing ill discipline. I know Anscombe gets slated but in fairness to him when guys like Henderson kept giving away penalties he called them on it and I can see kiss following in Schmidts footsteps with regard to discipline.

The discipline issue is a big one, when you see guys making the same mistakes repeatedly it is a clear sign that either the message isn't being delivered or isn't being listened to. Either way its not good

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The Great Aukster - have you really been impressed by Doak? Or do you think he gets unfair criticism?

Not yet and yes.

Doak is respected by the players - more so than Anscombe. He has had to cope with losing his leaders and having key players injured - as Geoff says Muller was a massive loss. Doak has done a lot better that McCall who has turned out to be OK. He gets criticised because he doesn't speak with a SH accent, and supposedly is part of "jobs for the boys" etc. Objectively would anyone else have done that much better?

The Great Aukster wrote: Objectively would anyone else have done that much better?

Les Kiss would

I don't think Anscombe would to be honest, or McLaughlin or Williams for that matter. I do think we should be aiming for a higher class of coach than that, so I understand the frustration, but I do think Kiss could turn out to be a coach in that class. It's not ideal for Doak to be living in the shadow of a man that has to come but Anscombe was a dead duck for the last year of his contract anyway and we would likely have had to wait until after the RWC to get his replacement so...

The Great Aukster wrote:
Doak is respected by the players - more so than Anscombe.

To be fair the players had more respect for Sparky than they had for Anscombe so that's not much of a claim.

The players like Doak not sure I would agree they respect him - slightly different.
The players respected, in bucket loads, Mueller

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote: Objectively would anyone else have done that much better?

Les Kiss would

I don't think Anscombe would to be honest, or McLaughlin or Williams for that matter. I do think we should be aiming for a higher class of coach than that, so I understand the frustration, but I do think Kiss could turn out to be a coach in that class. It's not ideal for Doak to be living in the shadow of a man that has to come but Anscombe was a dead duck for the last year of his contract anyway and we would likely have had to wait until after the RWC to get his replacement so...

The highest profile coach that any province or the national team has ever attracted has probably been Alan Solomons. Since then it has tended to be relative unknowns who haven't made it elsewhere, so whomever is appointed it is likely to be somewhat hit or miss.

Chris Henry told someone on The Other Forum he is aiming to be back for Cardiff. Olding says he and Jacko are a month away.

Don Alfonso wrote:Chris Henry told someone on The Other Forum he is aiming to be back for Cardiff.  Olding says he and Jacko are a month away.

Interesting - I thought Henry was more likely to be Connacht than Cardiff.
The Jackson projection doesn't fit with the initial prognosis

Needless to say happy to be wrong on both counts

Tim Boys out for the season with a toe injury! You have GOT to be kidding me... Mike Stanley better watch his back or the curse of the short term contract will claim him too!

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3338/Squad-Update-.aspx

Better news on Paddy Jackson though

Ulster turning the corner a bit for me and look a good bet for the title.

Still don't agree with some of the carry on thats gone on pre season but credit where its due, Doak is doing ok lately.

Notch wrote:Tim Boys out for the season with a toe injury! You have GOT to be kidding me... Mike Stanley better watch his back or the curse of the short term contract will claim him too!

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3338/Squad-Update-.aspx

Better news on Paddy Jackson though

Freakin heck, you couldn't write better comedy than our injured injury jokers.

At least it seems G.G. is still giving the lads wolverine-like healing powers with Jackson to make a return. Wow

THe news on Paddy Jackson just gets better and better - he is now a realistic target for the Cardiff game as are Olding and Henry.

Means that we have a chance of going into the the last 2 months with only Trimble missing from our front line players - given the injury list a few weeks back that is nothing short of incredible.

Herbst and Diack are available for Dragons

Oh man oh man. Henry and Jackson, in particular, back for the last three or four games makes a colossal difference to our prospects.

Those two on the pitch, fighting for a potential final in Ravenhill...

As for the Tim Boys news... of course he's injured. Of course he is. How could it play out any other way at Ulster?

It's all great news Geoff and added to the fact that, dare I say it, we're perhaps peaking at the right time for a change..........there I dared say it

I wouldn't describe us as "peaking", in all fairness.

Being a bit less dreadful, having had a couple of lucky results.

Although momentum is momentum.

I predict a Home semi. Or at worst case travelling to Glasgow in round 22 with a home semi in the balance.

I suspect the knock-on effect of having had so many players in the Ireland camp, training with Joe and potentially feeling the confidence boost of an excellent Six Nations campiagn, will see Munster and Leinster really improve in the last quarter of the season.

We have only Best, Hendo, Bowe and Payne benefitting from that. I think the Joe-time a gretare number of Munster and Leinster players are experiencing will do for the rest of the Pro12. We've seen it before, when returning players lift a team massively.

Don Alfonso wrote:I wouldn't describe us as "peaking", in all fairness.

Being a bit less dreadful, having had a couple of lucky results.

Although momentum is momentum.

Yeah, that's probably a more accurate way to phrase it.

Leinster have another competition to think about though - that distraction could prove crucial - espcially as they have a decent chance of making the SF

geoff998rugby wrote:Leinster have another competition to think about though - that distraction could prove crucial - espcially as they have a decent chance of making the SF

They also play Glasgow 6 days after the Scotland game which will surely mean they are minus their international contingent and hopefully Glasgow will have a few of theirs back like Pyrgos, Horne and Maitland if he's fit

Wales have also released Scott Williams and Priestland to play against Leinster on Saturday

Good news, Trimble has signed a new contract to play for Ulster and Ireland until 2017!

Did Henderson sign already or did I imagine it?

Yeah Hendo signed a three year deal with ulster, apparently not a central contract according to the Irish times and independent.

RTE are also reporting that Luke Marshal has been cited for kicking an opponent during the Scarlett match. I missed the second half as I had to catch a flight but I don't remember that happening.

BelfastDickVet wrote:RTE are also reporting that Luke Marshal has been cited for kicking an opponent during the Scarlett match. I missed the second half as I had to catch a flight but I don't remember that happening.

FFS... I have no idea when that might have happened.

They are also reporting roger Wilson has been cited for an alleged Strike/punch to a player in the same match

They looked at that at the time and there was really nothing in it at all. Given the fact neither incident provoked any form of a reaction from either side there's a good chance both will be dismissed.

It wasn't a particularly dirty or physical game, there wasn't a lot of niggle in the game at all, so to have two citings come out of it is slightly bizarre.

BelfastDickVet wrote:Yeah Hendo signed a three year deal with ulster, apparently not a central contract according to the Irish times and independent.

There are other sources who say it is a central contract - no idea what the truth is

I was hoping you would reply to that Geoff as I put a lot of stock in what you say on here, and I remember you mentioning before about the likely hood of Hendo's new contract being central. To be honest I would trust your sources more than the independent et al.

Looked up the website and for the different players it says

Trimble - Ulster and IRFU are please to announce a new Ireland contract
Henderson - Ulster and IRFU are pleased to announce a new contract
Wilson - Ulster are please to announce a new contract
Black - Ulster are please to announce a new contract

Typically when IRFU are mentioned it means a central contract.
Having said that is not as clear cut as Trimble.
Maybe, and this is pure speculation, it is an Ulster contract with a plan to upgrade after POC retires. It would make perfect sense.
Also has a precedence in that Paynes contract was split starting as an Ulster one and then being upgraded to a Central one

You can tell what kind of a contract it is by who is quoted in the press release. Nucifora (used be Browne) is usually quoted in the IRFU/Central Contract. For Andrew Trimble & Peter O'Mahony (both recent central contracts - Nucifora is quoted along with provincial rep). For Provincial contracts - it will be a quote from Province (Bryn in Ulster's case).

Going on what Brian O'Driscoll said about Henderson on Newstalk a few weeks ago, I doubt if he will be replacing POC. Apparently he has no interest in learning his detail.

Sin é wrote:Going on what Brian O'Driscoll said about Henderson on Newstalk a few weeks ago, I doubt if he will be replacing POC. Apparently he has no interest in learning his detail.

Last year we said the same about Zebo and look at him now. People change and mature over time.

Henderson is being lined up to replace POC.
Nucifora not being mentioned is easily explained - the first year is an Ulster only contract.
As I say if IRFU are part of the announcement there is almost certaintly a central contract element somewhere.

You will have to excuse me re BOD speaking - it often comes out the wrong end.
From everything I know saying Henderson has no interest in learning detail is complete and utter *****
Unlike ROG who has proved to be very astute

I'm not sure the problem was with Zebo not learning his 'detail'!

A lock is going to have to do an awful lot of video analysis and of all people to replace, POC probably does more than anyone. Henderson doesn't even call the lineout for Ulster.

BOD maybe talking out of his wrong end, but it was a very unusual comment for him to make. Usually he says very little about players.

Maybe it will be upgraded if he reaches certain targets. Keith Earls said in an interview last week that they really have to spend a lot of time on homework (8 or 9 o'clock at night) and that Joe is liable to try and catch them out the next morning on their homework.

I've found the incident with Luke Marshall and I must say it's totally baffling that its resulted in a citing. It appears that Tagicakibau has fallen after being tackles and as he lies on the ground Marshall has somehow clipped the side of his face and he runs back to get into an onside position. The contact is at 1:15:12. It is completely innocuous and Marshall isn't even looking at the player- there's nothing there that could even be described as a kick. It looks like a complete accident and as I say I am baffled by this getting pulled up.

https://youtu.be/Uh405I_tz3M?t=1h15m00s

Here is the Wilson incident; this one is more understandable but the referee and TMO both agree he's trying to bind onto the maul and catches Barclay by mistake. His view of where Barclay is seems to be blocked by another Scarlets player.

https://youtu.be/Uh405I_tz3M?t=1h28m52s

I think these citings are inexplicably petty. It's good news, in that we are likely to have Marshall and Wilson available at the weekend bar a display of incompetence unprecedented even in rugby union disciplinary hearings. But it's incredibly baffling and ridiculous that these incidents were highlighted in the first place.

Henderson said himself he isn't comfortable calling the lineout as he struggles learning the calls so its no great revelation - or that he prefers the backrow. He's only a young fella.

Zebo was pinged for his defence and work off the ball. Fair fooks to him he's sorted himself out a bit and got his tall poppy syndrome under control for now.

Notch wrote:I've found the incident with Luke Marshall and I must say it's totally baffling that its resulted in a citing. It appears that Tagicakibau has fallen after being tackles and as he lies on the ground Marshall has somehow clipped the side of his face and he runs back to get into an onside position. The contact is at 1:15:12. It is completely innocuous and Marshall isn't even looking at the player- there's nothing there that could even be described as a kick. It looks like a complete accident and as I say I am baffled by this getting pulled up.

https://youtu.be/Uh405I_tz3M?t=1h15m00s

Here is the Wilson incident; this one is more understandable but the referee and TMO both agree he's trying to bind onto the maul and catches Barclay by mistake. His view of where Barclay is seems to be blocked by another Scarlets player.

https://youtu.be/Uh405I_tz3M?t=1h28m52s

I think these citings are inexplicably petty. It's good news, in that we are likely to have Marshall and Wilson available at the weekend bar a display of incompetence unprecedented even in rugby union disciplinary hearings. But it's incredibly baffling and ridiculous that these incidents were highlighted in the first place.

I think the the expression 'somehow' caught his head with his boot sims it up, and in how on earth did he contrive to get his boot into that position?? Think he'll take a ban for that, no logical explanation as to why his foot would stick out like that unless he was trying to chip the ball out of his hands. Certainly can't be explained away by simply running past the player.

Higher_Ground wrote:

Notch wrote:I've found the incident with Luke Marshall and I must say it's totally baffling that its resulted in a citing. It appears that Tagicakibau has fallen after being tackles and as he lies on the ground Marshall has somehow clipped the side of his face and he runs back to get into an onside position. The contact is at 1:15:12. It is completely innocuous and Marshall isn't even looking at the player- there's nothing there that could even be described as a kick. It looks like a complete accident and as I say I am baffled by this getting pulled up.

https://youtu.be/Uh405I_tz3M?t=1h15m00s

Here is the Wilson incident; this one is more understandable but the referee and TMO both agree he's trying to bind onto the maul and catches Barclay by mistake. His view of where Barclay is seems to be blocked by another Scarlets player.

https://youtu.be/Uh405I_tz3M?t=1h28m52s

I think these citings are inexplicably petty. It's good news, in that we are likely to have Marshall and Wilson available at the weekend bar a display of incompetence unprecedented even in rugby union disciplinary hearings. But it's incredibly baffling and ridiculous that these incidents were highlighted in the first place.

I think the the expression 'somehow' caught his head with his boot sims it up, and in how on earth did he contrive to get his boot into that position?? Think he'll take a ban for that, no logical explanation as to why his foot would stick out like that unless he was trying to chip the ball out of his hands. Certainly can't be explained away by simply running past the player.

Now I've heard everything! It certainly can be explained by running past the player. Indeed that would appear to be far and away the most obvious explanation. His boot is where it is because he's turning around and running backwards at the same time. Given he's turning around, running backwards and looking at the ball it's pretty unbelievable anyone could think he has any awareness of the player. It's staggering anyone could come to the conclusion there was even a hint of foul play in that, never mind cite it... if that gets a ban, it'll be a real jumping the shark moment for rugby union. The criteria for a citing is that the action must merit a red card. If we see incidents like that getting punished with red cards... sorry, might as well just call the whole thing off.

Anyone who has ever played the game will have caused and caught a few of those accidental contacts. I can't believe that these are being cited, what are players supposed to do - look left, look right, look left again before they move at a brisk walk! If the citing commission issue bans for those I expect every game will see a few players incur their wrath and the finals will be played out with Academy players.

I'm not the citing officer. But he's not running backwards, he's running forwards, and at the moment he passes the player, he makes a very unnatural movement of turning sideways and leaving a trailing leg which catches the players head. Anyone's guess as to why. Not the worst thing I've seen on a field, but if they've gone to the trouble of citing him, he'll probably get a short ban. I'm not agreeing with it, just saying what I think will happen.

He is running forwards. He is actually pivoting which is the action that catches the player. I suspect both will be thrown out and I would expect the citing commissioner to maybe have an awkward chat coming his way. Convening these things cost £££ and doing them frivilously (as in this case) is baffling. 

The Wilson one I actually find more baffling given the ref dealt with it

I hate it when I see other teams acting all coy, so I'm going to be honest here. I think Wilson should be cited. He was either trying to dislodge a ball (which he couldnt see) or was intended to strike the player. He should be cited even if just for clumsiness.

No way anyone can excuse that swing of the arm I'm sorrry to say.

Marshall though - I'm not so sure. There's certainly not enough evidence to say it was intentional that I can see.

Not much in the Marshall one. But the Wilson one is a ban. Terrible use of the forearm on a players nose. No excuse.

Really disappointed that we didn't get to see the replay on the TMO feed (twice it was cut short).

But then the TMO was from County Antrim, so it figures.

Higher_Ground wrote:I'm not the citing officer. But he's not running backwards, he's running forwards, and at the moment he passes the player, he makes a very unnatural movement of turning sideways and leaving a trailing leg which catches the players head. Anyone's guess as to why. Not the worst thing I've seen on a field, but if they've gone to the trouble of citing him, he'll probably get a short ban.  I'm not agreeing with it, just saying what I think will happen.

It seems that you are implying Marshall intended to connect boot to head, because you apparently can't fathom why else he would make such 'a very unnatural movement'. Look at it again. There is nothing unnatural about his movement. Marshall was obviously positioning himself to face the advancing Scarlets by turning around, and in doing so he clipped the player by accident.

It is ludicrous that Marshall has been cited for this. Pathetic.