Edinburgh V Ulster

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Edinburgh V Ulster

Friday 20th February 2015
KO 19:35
BT Murrayfield
Live on BBC Sport Scotland & BBC Northern Ireland

Referee: Leighton Hodges (WRU, 48th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Sam Grove-White, Mike Adamson (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)
TMO: David Changleng (SRU)

24 Played 24
8 Wins 16
16 Losses 8
0 Draws 0
37 Tries 61
27 Conversions 40
47 Penalties 69
5 Drop Goals 3
395 Points 601
25 Avg. Age 26

Teams

Edinburgh

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Phil Burleigh
11 Tim Visser
10 Tom Heathcote
9 Grayson Hart

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Neil Cochrane
3 W P Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Ben Toolis
6 Roddy Grant
7 Hamish Watson
8 Mike Coman (captain)

16 Stuart McInally
17 Grant Shiells
18 John Andress
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Hugh Blake
21 A N Other
22 Jade Te Rure
23 Andries Strauss

Ulster

1. Callum Black
2. Rob Herring
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Franco van der Merwe
5. Iain Henderson
6. Roger Wilson (c)
7. Mike McComish
8. Nick Williams

9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Ian Humphreys
11. Michael Allen
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Darren Cave
14. Craig Gilroy
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew
17. Andrew Warwick
18. Bronson Ross
19. Lewis Stevenson
20. Clive Ross
21. Paul Marshall
22. Luke Marshall
23. Peter Nelson

Unbelievable! But to be fair when we persist with going for the posts when the lad taking the kicks is woefully out of form was a stupid tactic. Then the huddy hilterband was just pathetic, he has yet to have a good decent better than sh*te game for us.

Well done Ulster, you managed to hang on and did just enough and fair play to you for it, sign of a good team grinding out wins when you're not playing well

neilthom7 wrote:I disagree with Paddy Wallace he was head at the bottom feet at the top with no control over what would happen next so there was every danger to the player there.  The law says Red and it was a red, fair decision

Have to disagree there, he wasn't in control but I think the risk wasn't as great as a red card would indicate.

Ulster are getting too good at playing with players off the pitch but I wish they'd stop practicing.

Hodges was desperatley trying to give Edinburgh the win but the bet he obviously placed is deservedly lost

That red card was laughable, a yellow would have been fairly harsh but fair. If refs are following rules instead of interpreting laws they should be officiating sports with more spherical balls.

Anyway....phew

I don't know the law on that one. Can't say I've seen a red before but not going to be too critical. There does seem a trend that ulster get reds when others get yellow. I could rhyme of a list of Payne-esque tackles since last season that have only got yellow including one which was given by the same ref that red carded Payne and ended up injuring a player.

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I disagree with Paddy Wallace he was head at the bottom feet at the top with no control over what would happen next so there was every danger to the player there.  The law says Red and it was a red, fair decision

Have to disagree there, he wasn't in control but I think the risk wasn't as great as a red card would indicate.

I would disagree but sure whats done is done. In my opinion Mcloskey had the player so that his head was starring towards the ground and he could do nothing to defend himself as whoever was also there was also holding him, even though there's no malice to it, one slip and that player lands right on his neck and that is never acceptable speaking as a guy who has been dropped on his head more times than he cares to relive. The rules say anything liek that where a player is in a position to come down on his neck or head is a red so I think Hodges got it right but again it's done now lets hope the panel doesn't take a dim view of it as McCloskey is a big player for us

McCloskey will be banned for at least a week maybe more. Luckily we have Luke Marshall fit and ready but its frustrating given he's only just back in the team.

We got four pretty underserved points. Now let us never speak of this farcical game again.

neilthom7 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I disagree with Paddy Wallace he was head at the bottom feet at the top with no control over what would happen next so there was every danger to the player there.  The law says Red and it was a red, fair decision

Have to disagree there, he wasn't in control but I think the risk wasn't as great as a red card would indicate.

I would disagree but sure whats done is done.  In my opinion Mcloskey had the player so that his head was starring towards the ground and he could do nothing to defend himself as whoever was also there was also holding him, even though there's no malice to it, one slip and that player lands right on his neck and that is never acceptable speaking as a guy who has been dropped on his head more times than he cares to relive.  The rules say anything liek that where a player is in a position to come down on his neck or head is a red so I think Hodges got it right but again it's done now lets hope the panel doesn't take a dim view of it as McCloskey is a big player for us

His head never left the ground though, theres still danger involved but less so than many instances in the game

A quick word for the subs that did well and in fairness to Wilson and Pienaar (who were poor for large parts) they stood up at the end. How solid was Marshall locking out the open side of that last scrum. Looked better than mccomish who should sod off now

Notch wrote:McCloskey will be banned for at least a week maybe more. Luckily we have Luke Marshall fit and ready but its frustrating given he's only just back in the team.

We got four pretty underserved points. Now let us never speak of this farcical game again.

Agreed

Standulstermen wrote:A quick word for the subs that did well and in fairness to Wilson and Pienaar (who were poor for large parts) they stood up at the end. How solid was Marshall locking out the open side of that last scrum. Looked better than mccomish who should sod off now

After the way McComish and Humphreys played, you have to wonder whats going on if we don't have a look at the two short-term guys, Boys and Stanley. I think Humphreys just pipped McComish to being the worst player on the pitch tonight.

An uplifting 'pearl of wisdom' from one of Edinburgh's followers on Twitter

@EdinburghRugby few games ago u would've been happy with losing BP. Shows progress that you'll be disappointed tonight - learn & move on

See we're all looking at tonight in the wrong way. that was progress...

Damn it must be amazing to drift through life with such a blindly positive mindset!

Notch wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:A quick word for the subs that did well and in fairness to Wilson and Pienaar (who were poor for large parts) they stood up at the end. How solid was Marshall locking out the open side of that last scrum. Looked better than mccomish who should sod off now

After the way McComish and Humphreys played, you have to wonder whats going on if we don't have a look at the two short-term guys, Boys and Stanley. I think Humphreys just pipped McComish to being the worst player on the pitch tonight.

That volley! Wtf!!!?

Excellent game Ulster, brilliant win against the odds.

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I disagree with Paddy Wallace he was head at the bottom feet at the top with no control over what would happen next so there was every danger to the player there.  The law says Red and it was a red, fair decision

Have to disagree there, he wasn't in control but I think the risk wasn't as great as a red card would indicate.

I would disagree but sure whats done is done.  In my opinion Mcloskey had the player so that his head was starring towards the ground and he could do nothing to defend himself as whoever was also there was also holding him, even though there's no malice to it, one slip and that player lands right on his neck and that is never acceptable speaking as a guy who has been dropped on his head more times than he cares to relive.  The rules say anything liek that where a player is in a position to come down on his neck or head is a red so I think Hodges got it right but again it's done now lets hope the panel doesn't take a dim view of it as McCloskey is a big player for us

His head never left the ground though, theres still danger involved but less so than many instances in the game

I think your number 11 (Allen) was holding his head off the ground whilst McCloskey helped Watson practice his cartwheels, not sure a red was totally warranted, but I do wonder if Allen holding the top half of Watson made it look worse and than it maybe would have been had McCloskey just tipped him alone.

GLove39 wrote:An uplifting 'pearl of wisdom' from one of Edinburgh's followers on Twitter

@EdinburghRugby few games ago u would've been happy with losing BP.  Shows progress that you'll be disappointed tonight - learn & move on

See we're all looking at tonight in the wrong way. that was progress...

Damn it must be amazing to drift through life with such a blindly positive mindset!

That definitely glass half full if I ever seen it lol

That was surreal.

This comment made it almost worthwhile though.

GLove39 wrote:

Notch wrote:If Edinburgh somehow don't win this, they'll kick themselves so hard they'll not be able to field a team next week for broken legs.

Heathcote would miss his

I think this is one of those situations where you just have to walk away embarrassed that you somehow managed to fail to lose. Although, to be fair, Edinburgh might have felt the same way if they had stolen it at the end.

Commiserations Edinburgh.

Shows you how far Edinburgh have come that they are dissapointed to lose this game (they should have really won). It wasn't long ago this Edinburgh team were losing to Zebre.

GLove39 wrote:An uplifting 'pearl of wisdom' from one of Edinburgh's followers on Twitter

@EdinburghRugby few games ago u would've been happy with losing BP.  Shows progress that you'll be disappointed tonight - learn & move on

See we're all looking at tonight in the wrong way. that was progress...

Damn it must be amazing to drift through life with such a blindly positive mindset!

2 years ago, Edinburgh won that same fixture against arguably a stronger Ulster side. Are we still talking about progress?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Shows you how far Edinburgh have come that they are dissapointed to lose this game (they should have really won). It wasn't long ago this Edinburgh team were losing to Zebre.

It wasn't to long ago this ulster team were losing to zebre

Hodges, did his best to give the game to Edinburgh, luckily they were so bad they couldn't take it.

Some of the pens given on the final 20 were farcical. Ross pinned down on his back by entire ruck, pinged for not rolling away.The actual yellow were personal fav, VDM simply competed for the ball and as a result was landing into to the Edinburgh lifter, not a pen in a million years. It looked like he was looking out for anything he ping Ulster on. Shocking.

Ulster deserve the win purely to deny Hodges.

Does Solomons even watch the game? taking motm Cochrane off and keeping Hart and Heathcote are professional mistakes! I wish i could get away with those at my daily job. This result should definitely cost Edinburgh a top 6 finish.

I have to say Hodges did his best to save the day for Solomons as i don't think McCloskey deserved a red.

VinceWLB wrote:Does Solomons even watch the game? taking motm Cochrane off and keeping Hart and Heathcote are professional mistakes! I wish i could get away with those at my daily job. This result should definitely cost Edinburgh a top 6 finish.

I have to say Hodges did his best to save the day for Solomons as i don't think McCloskey deserved a red.

Doak gets bad press but taking Humphreys off and moving Pienaar to 10 was a master stroke when McCloskey went off. Whomever made the decision not to contest the last maul needs a medal as that was the first real demonstration of leadership that Ulster have shown in the 'championship minutes' in yonks. Ulster were poor but they just about deserved to win because they made a few better decisions at crucial times and against the odds.
Solomons has improved Edinburgh and built depth but he can't legislate for guys missing goals, not throwing straight, knocking the ball into touch under pressure etc.

OK guys, I'm just in from the Old Guildfordians' annual Cheese Tasting & Peasant Shoot, and I've seen the result.

Should I watch the match, or should I file it in my mental box of things which definitely never happened (along with Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, everything Radiohead recorded after 'Kid A', and that unfortunate time in Waterstones when I read a paragraph of '50 Shades of Emotionally Crippled Womanhood')?

A master class from Pienaar

the brainfart of the decade from Edinburgh

Pienaar was as poor as I have seen him for ulster. His passing was well off

Solomons not beating about the bush - days that kicks from hand, kicks at goal (17 points missed apparently) and squint lineouts cost us the game.

And here was me beating the drum for Heathcoat  to start...

I've said this before, but surely Top 6 is near impossible now?

Hugely disappointing. Just what we needed after last weekend..

Gameplan was working, particulary with a lenient ref of bossing things up front, getting the penalties.
Unfortunately the penalties werent really an advantage to us. Option 1 kick for goal.. Heathcote made 4 out of 10 kicks (17 points gone begging).
Option 2 kick for line out, Hilterbrand got pinged for 2 (3?) Squint throws on our lineout in the last 10 minutes against 13 men - one on the 5 metre line and the other just outside the 22. What chance have you got?! Schoolboy stuff, might have faird better with the old schoolboy tap and go!

That said, Solomans still needs to take a bit of the blame. Why hook Cochrane when he was playing so well. And why not bring on Te Rure with 20 to go after the red card??? Heathcotes kicking was terrible anyway and the extra space would have been made for te rure. Should have sent him on with the explicit instruction to run around like a headless chicken.

Anyway, decent Ulster side who despite not playing well managed to hang on. Their defense looked very aggressive and organised and didnt look like being breached (edinburgh try aside!) so well done to them.

Cochrane has a rib injury apparently.

What happened to mcinally?

Agree JonnyEdinburgh, plus add to that replacing Burleigh with Strauss. Just when we should have been attacking wide we removed our playmaker for an entirely defensive inside centre. Bonkers!

Edinburgh couldn't win despite a 5-15 penalty count, you have to laugh at that.

Edinburgh having to play with 3 OS in the back row made Solomons looks like a fool. Actually had Edinburgh won it would have been a travesty as Ulster were clearly the better team until the undeserved red card.

IanBru wrote:OK guys, I'm just in from the Old Guildfordians' annual Cheese Tasting & Peasant Shoot, and I've seen the result.

Should I watch the match, or should I file it in my mental box of things which definitely never happened (along with Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, everything Radiohead recorded after 'Kid A', and that unfortunate time in Waterstones when I read a paragraph of '50 Shades of Emotionally Crippled Womanhood')?

Heresy.

I would wonder if Heathcote has ever missed so many kicks at goal in a match, unbelievably bad especially as most of them were fairly straight forward. I suppose it must be difficult for the captain or coach to know at what point to change the kicker, expecting a normally reliable Heathcote to nail the next one but really somebody should have said ,say, after two misses Cuthbert will take the rest. We would have won by a reasonable margin if even half the misses had been successful.
I'm also quite sure Te Rure was worth a gamble in the second half as well, we needed some more attacking instinct on the field against the 13 men.

What a cluster ruck of a game.

Hilterbrand and Heathcote should be sent down to the reserve team - they're simply not Pro12 standard, let alone international standard.

I thought we were persisting with Heathcote for his reliable kicking?! Doesn't seem like his has anything else to offer!

Te Rure and McInally/Chochrane have to start next time.

Well we were truly terrible at the breakdown - Wilson on his own.
Williams is only good for an impact sub not got 80 mins in him
McCormish reverted to his usual inept self - if Boys is not in the 23 next week total waste of time bringing him over.

Kicking was terrible form both players in the first half and from Humphreys all game.
He was totally useless - again Stanley should be in the 23 next week or why bring him over.

It does occur to me that since their contract renewals Wilson and Cave have been the best forward and back in the team - certaintly proving the doubters wrong.

Two priceless moments in a terrible game
1 - Pienaer laying down the law to the front row for the last scrum
2 - Just before that Black snaffled a loose ball on the ground from Edinburgh when they were only 5 yards short and we were down to 13 men. I could have hugged him and maybe even kissed him

Thank you Heathcote Ulsters man of thew match 4 from 10 kicks !

McCloskey was disappointing but he will be fine and what the last 2 games have confirmed to me is this lad is the real deal - he is going to be some player

There's a lot of love for Wilson and in fairness he stepped up massively at the end but he was poor for the vast majority of that game and contributed to the issues at the breakdown.

Just on the McCloskey red. Look at about 1.03 in this for the only previous incident I can recall.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FQwDx9v4Gdw

Doesn't look too disimilar and in truth in this clip the player is taken off the ground. I'm not complaining about the card McCloskey got but merely saying ulster seem to get red where others get yellow. I haven't seen a Payne-esque tackle get red since our HEC QF. Plenty of citings but no red. Refs really need to be more consistent

In that final scrum?

I know we had Luke Marshall packing down on one flank. Was Nelson playing the other side?

If that is true then the team they were on deserved to win that match just for locking out that scrum.

My thoughts on the match:

- Leighten Hodges was a refreshing change - should have been a man of the match. The red card was deserved and the yellow too. He wasn't sticky at the scrum - which benefited both sides - and let the game flow.

- Ulster did what they needed to do to get the 4 points. I thought Piennar might have been more effective starting at 10, but solid - if not spectacular - performance.

- Edinburgh's gameplan was wrong regarding kicking. Heathcote should have said that the kicks were at the very edge of his range and gone for territory instead.

- Visser and Fife didn't seem like internationalists coming into the side. They seemed rusty and Visser, in particular, didn't really seem up for it.

- A toddler can throw a rugby ball straighter than Hilterbrand! His JOB is to throw straight - I mean, how hard can it be!

- The Edinburgh pack is seriously impressive - Sutherland and Cochrane in particular were outstanidng. Toolis has to at least bench next week and Bresler is getting better game by game. Thought the back-row was less effective without Coman (3x7s - from AS?!) but Watson and Grant had good games.

Nematode wrote:My thoughts on the match:

- Leighten Hodges was a refreshing change - should have been a man of the match. The red card was deserved and the yellow too. He wasn't sticky at the scrum - which benefited both sides - and let the game flow.

- Ulster did what they needed to do to get the 4 points. I thought Piennar might have been more effective starting at 10, but solid - if not spectacular - performance.

- Edinburgh's gameplan was wrong regarding kicking. Heathcote should have said that the kicks were at the very edge of his range and gone for territory instead.

- Visser and Fife didn't seem like internationalists coming into the side. They seemed rusty and Visser, in particular, didn't really seem up for it.

- A toddler can throw a rugby ball straighter than Hilterbrand! His JOB is to throw straight - I mean, how hard can it be!

- The Edinburgh pack is seriously impressive - Sutherland and Cochrane in particular were outstanidng. Toolis has to at least bench next week and Bresler is getting better game by game. Thought the back-row was less effective without Coman (3x7s - from AS?!) but Watson and Grant had good games.

Oh I did laugh at this. It is meant to be a joke isn't it?

Erm, no Pete. 

I thought he had a good game and was consistent to both sides. I'm not normally a huge fan of his reffing, but he was not bad last night.

Isn't it funny how we all see the same thing differently.....with our one eye.

I think Hodges is a good ref, but last night was a poor performance from him. I don't have any problems with the red, but the yellow was a farce. Also, the penalty's seem weighted against us, and I honestly don't believe it was because we were committing three times the amount of offences.

Sure, what do I care. We won

Not sure you can say the yellow was a farce when a lot of refs would have had a man in the bin earlier, for persistent infringing, given the number of pens Ulster gave away.

Because I don't believe it was a penalty offence. Maybe they were persistently offending, and maybe they they did deserve a yellow card at some point, but if they did, then so did Embra. That's what I mean about they penalty's being weighted against us.

Isn't it odd that although we won the game, Ulster supporters, and others, think Hodges had a bad game, and yet, even though Embra lost, a few of their supporters defend him? Very odd.....or maybe not.

Anyway, we won Believe what you want.

Oops Nematode I really did think you were taking the peepee. As Munchkin has said it's amazing how our views can be so skewed by our heart-felt loyalty to our side.

For me the red card was ludicrous and a yellow would have been harsh enough but acceptable. The player was never lifted and although his legs went above the horizontal it happens to some degree in a lot of clearouts. This example absolutely looked more dramatic in the slo-mos. McCloskey will receive a token ban because the citing panels always back up the refs decisions however bad. It just seems we are on the receiving end reds yet we're not a dirty team, physical but never maliciously dirty.

Anyway, we offset the bad luck with the great luck in not losing one that should have got away. Edinburgh has improved a heck of a lot and have a ways to go but we seem to be in decline at a similar rate. As bad as everyone is saying Humps was last night Pienaar's loopy passes certainly didn't help our outhalf. It was the first time I've seen Ruan pass like that. Perhaps he's carrying a niggle because it was out of character to say the least.

'The player was never lifted'
Are you being serious?
What was it then - magnetic levitation that left his feet 6 feet above his head - you need to get a grip if you you want to be to be taken seriously.
His ban will reflect the danger of his actions and will not be light.

I agree Pete that Ulster are not a dirty team as such , just very indisciplined and hence the penalty count. Ulsters own coach blamed their remarkable victory on their own indiscipline and not the ref,

malky1963 wrote:'The player was never lifted'
Are you being serious?
What was it then - magnetic levitation that left his feet 6 feet above his head - you need to get a grip if you you want to be to be taken seriously.
His ban will reflect the danger of his actions and will not be light.

I agree Pete that Ulster are not a dirty team as such , just very indisciplined and hence the penalty count. Ulsters own coach blamed their remarkable  victory on their own indiscipline and not the ref,

The player was not lifted from the ground as in there was no clear air between him and the ground. Upended yes but picked up and dropped no. If the ban is lengthy then we may as well start playing touch rugby or go full on fairy and call it soccer.

As much as I have no problem with the red, it's stretching things to say it deserves a lengthy ban. There really wasn't all that much in it. No more than a week on the naughty step for me.

Pete330v2 wrote:

malky1963 wrote:'The player was never lifted'
Are you being serious?
What was it then - magnetic levitation that left his feet 6 feet above his head - you need to get a grip if you you want to be to be taken seriously.
His ban will reflect the danger of his actions and will not be light.

I agree Pete that Ulster are not a dirty team as such , just very indisciplined and hence the penalty count. Ulsters own coach blamed their remarkable  victory on their own indiscipline and not the ref,

The player was not lifted from the ground as in there was no clear air between him and the ground. Upended yes but picked up and dropped no. If the ban is lengthy then we may as well start playing touch rugby or go full on fairy and call it soccer.

I think the issue with the red is that there is no precedent for it. Initially I thought harsh and a later point i make may back it up (not the point i want to make mind you), but realistically in todays game im not sure hodges had much choice.

I put up the rhys gill incident though and its fairly similar and resulted in a yc and iirc there was no citing. Its slightly different in that mccloskeys is probably more vertical yet Gills actually lifts and drops whereas Watson (it was Watson?) doesn't lose contact.

Its another hornets nest like the contested high ball but all we can hope for is consistency. We have seen retrospective consistency in that case from citing officers but not from officials on the field

I watched the Rhys Gill incident. It is similar, although another one that could have went either way, as the players feet were lifted above his head, and without due care being taken to help ensure a safe landing. In this instance, I don't think the head was actually lifted off the ground, but I can still understand how it might have been interpreted as dangerous play. I thought a yellow at the time, but then it's Ulster, and Ulster, as everyone knows, leads the way in setting precedent. The ref's must love us

I fully agree, there's much more consistency with the citing officers, than with ref's. Maybe some ref's are afraid to award red's, while others may be afraid not to award red's? I don't know, but as far as setting precedent, I wish they would pick on someone else!