Edinburgh V Ulster

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Edinburgh V Ulster

Friday 20th February 2015
KO 19:35
BT Murrayfield
Live on BBC Sport Scotland & BBC Northern Ireland

Referee: Leighton Hodges (WRU, 48th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Sam Grove-White, Mike Adamson (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)
TMO: David Changleng (SRU)

24 Played 24
8 Wins 16
16 Losses 8
0 Draws 0
37 Tries 61
27 Conversions 40
47 Penalties 69
5 Drop Goals 3
395 Points 601
25 Avg. Age 26

Teams

Edinburgh

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Phil Burleigh
11 Tim Visser
10 Tom Heathcote
9 Grayson Hart

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Neil Cochrane
3 W P Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Ben Toolis
6 Roddy Grant
7 Hamish Watson
8 Mike Coman (captain)

16 Stuart McInally
17 Grant Shiells
18 John Andress
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Hugh Blake
21 A N Other
22 Jade Te Rure
23 Andries Strauss

Ulster

1. Callum Black
2. Rob Herring
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Franco van der Merwe
5. Iain Henderson
6. Roger Wilson (c)
7. Mike McComish
8. Nick Williams

9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Ian Humphreys
11. Michael Allen
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Darren Cave
14. Craig Gilroy
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew
17. Andrew Warwick
18. Bronson Ross
19. Lewis Stevenson
20. Clive Ross
21. Paul Marshall
22. Luke Marshall
23. Peter Nelson

1. Callum Black
2. Rob Herring
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Franco van der Merwe
5. Iain Henderson
6. Roger Wilson (c)
7. Mike McComish
8. Nick Williams
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Ian Humphreys
11. Michael Allen
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Darren Cave
14. Craig Gilroy
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew 17. Andrew Warwick 18. Bronson Ross 19. Lewis Stevenson 20. Clive Ross 21. Paul Marshall 22. Luke Marshall 23. Peter Nelson

Teams up

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Phil Burleigh
11 Tim Visser
10 Tom Heathcote
9 Grayson Hart

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Neil Cochrane
3 W P Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Ben Toolis
6 Roddy Grant
7 Hamish Watson
8 Mike Coman (captain)

Replacements
16 Stuart McInally
17 Grant Shiells
18 John Andress
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Hugh Blake
21 A N Other
22 Jade Te Rure
23 Andries Strauss

Fraser McKenzie and Alex Toolis have been loaned to Glasgow Warriors

cp10 wrote:Teams up

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Phil Burleigh
11 Tim Visser
10 Tom Heathcote
9   Grayson Hart

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Neil Cochrane
3 W P Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Ben Toolis
6 Roddy Grant
7 Hamish Watson
8 Mike Coman (captain)

Replacements
16 Stuart McInally
17 Grant Shiells
18 John Andress
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Hugh Blake
21 A N Other
22 Jade Te Rure
23 Andries Strauss

Fraser McKenzie and Alex Toolis have been loaned to Glasgow Warriors

Wonder if that means Seymour and/or Maitland are fit for Italy.

Very pleased with the Edinburgh team - pretty much the best we could hope for just now with the Inernationalists away.

And, most importantly, look who is at 10!

That team is absolutely spot on, and the loan of McKenzie to Glasgow makes a lot of sense. In fact there's a lot of sense in that becoming a permanent move, because he's a good player only missing out at Edinburgh because of the remarkable rise of Ben Toolis.

I'm also hopeful that Edinburgh re-sign Atkins.

I'm not convinced those players from the Scotland squad won't play against Italy either. This is a Friday game and they'll have plenty time to prepare for Italy. As important as rest is, some players react better to playing rugby as a preparation to...playing rugby.

cp10 wrote:Teams up

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Phil Burleigh
11 Tim Visser
10 Tom Heathcote
9   Grayson Hart

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Neil Cochrane
3 W P Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Ben Toolis
6 Roddy Grant
7 Hamish Watson
8 Mike Coman (captain)

Replacements
16 Stuart McInally
17 Grant Shiells
18 John Andress
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Hugh Blake
21 A N Other
22 Jade Te Rure
23 Andries Strauss

Fraser McKenzie and Alex Toolis have been loaned to Glasgow Warriors

That's a good looking team, should be a good match

Also really pleased to see Watson starting - he will be itching to play some rugby having been on the sidelines with Scotland the last few weeks.

My opinion on Solomons has definitely increased - he's not been pressured into sticking with Hugh Blake, and he's clever enough to see that Te Rure is very rough around the edges and not the best player to be starting against Ulster.

funnyExiledScot wrote:That team is absolutely spot on, and the loan of McKenzie to Glasgow makes a lot of sense. In fact there's a lot of sense in that becoming a permanent move, because he's a good player only missing out at Edinburgh because of the remarkable rise of Ben Toolis.

I'm also hopeful that Edinburgh re-sign Atkins.

I'm not convinced those players from the Scotland squad won't play against Italy either. This is a Friday game and they'll have plenty time to prepare for Italy. As important as rest is, some players react better to playing rugby as a preparation to...playing rugby.

Yes let's hope so, he's a good player. Solomons seems to rate Alex Toolis as having lots of potential so hopefully he might develop as well as his brother has.

Is Kennedy injured with no scrumhalf replacement listed? Who else is there if he isn't fit?

Alex Glashan was on the bench last week, so I'm assuming injured or with the 7s...

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson will be the 4th Lock/6th backrower in the Irish squad.
Baring a shed load of injuries Diack will be nowhere near the squad

Schmidt can't afford to take 9 players to cover lock and backrow, unless World Rugby are allowing 31 man squads this year? He has to take 9 front-rows because of the restrictions so that leaves 8 to cover lock/backrow and 13 backs in a 30 man squad. Diack might not be great but he is the only player in the mix who has played all four positions.
So the RWC squad mix could be:
Starting Locks - POC, Toner
Bench Lock - Henderson
Starting backrow - POM, SOB, Heaslip
Bench backrow - Murphy
That leaves one squad place to cover all four positions for injury and start in the minnows games, so apart from Diack who else is there?

Re AN Other, I think SHC is maybe still being looked at for concsussion

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson will be the 4th Lock/6th backrower in the Irish squad.
Baring a shed load of injuries Diack will be nowhere near the squad

Schmidt can't afford to take 9 players to cover lock and backrow, unless World Rugby are allowing 31 man squads this year? He has to take 9 front-rows because of the restrictions so that leaves 8 to cover lock/backrow and 13 backs in a 30 man squad. Diack might not be great but he is the only player in the mix who has played all four positions.
So the RWC squad mix could be:
Starting Locks - POC, Toner
Bench Lock - Henderson
Starting backrow - POM, SOB, Heaslip
Bench backrow - Murphy
That leaves one squad place to cover all four positions for injury and start in the minnows games, so apart from Diack who else is there?

This is exactly whats happening this year. However, the extra spot will almost certainly be used in the front row. The change to have two front rows on the bench is the reason for it. Even still that leaves room for another back row and another lock in addition to those seven.

31-man squad

5 props
3 hookers
4 locks (including one who can cover back row)
5 backrows
3 scrum-halves
3 outhalves (including one who can cover centre)
3 centres
3 wingers
2 fullbacks

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson will be the 4th Lock/6th backrower in the Irish squad.
Baring a shed load of injuries Diack will be nowhere near the squad

Schmidt can't afford to take 9 players to cover lock and backrow, unless World Rugby are allowing 31 man squads this year? He has to take 9 front-rows because of the restrictions so that leaves 8 to cover lock/backrow and 13 backs in a 30 man squad. Diack might not be great but he is the only player in the mix who has played all four positions.
So the RWC squad mix could be:
Starting Locks - POC, Toner
Bench Lock - Henderson
Starting backrow - POM, SOB, Heaslip
Bench backrow - Murphy
That leaves one squad place to cover all four positions for injury and start in the minnows games, so apart from Diack who else is there?

Depends whether we take 5 props or 6

If fit Henry he will go
Murphy will be contesting with Ruddock, maybe Tuohy rather than Diack

My money is on POC, Toner, Henderson, Ruddock, Heaslip, SOB, Henry, POM + 1 more if 5 props

One thing that strikes me about this Edinburgh team is out of the 4 back rower in the 23 there is 3 open side and one 6/8 who doesn't carry. Wonder how Edinburgh expect to get over the gainline.

Coman has actually carried pretty well this season, and Toolis and Bresler have both carried a lot of ball. I suspect those three will be called upon quite heavily, with Nel contributing from the front row. Obviously we're a bit short with Denton and Du Preez both out, and Ford being rested.

We should also look to get Visser involved more from his wing. Complete girls blouse obviously, but he's pretty handy taking the ball at pace off the shoulder.

I am assuming that our Ulster fans are as confident as ever of administering an enema with a beach umbrella to this Edinburgh side, but I would welcome express confirmation of this.

Visser is the only player that i'm aware of who actually slows down going into contact. I hope they don't rely on him getting over the gainline! Burleigh has looked great though and has transformed the Edinburgh backline since his arrival. Toolis has been phenomenal and i hope he isn't rusty after a month without any gametime.

Not sure i agree with you on Coman, he is more like a Heaslip in terms of style (well the comparison ends here lol) but a ball carrier, he isn't.

Given they simply announced their side and promptly moved onto a discussion of the Irish World Cup Squad, my take is that they weren't overly alarmed at the prospect of facing Neil Cochrane and Rory Sutherland.

George Carlin wrote:I am assuming that our Ulster fans are as confident as ever of administering an enema with a beach umbrella to this Edinburgh side, but I would welcome express confirmation of this.

I think it will be hard but at this stage of the season it's an absolute must-win. No option but to win. Only winning is acceptable. And so on.

Ulsters away form has been truly woeful this season and Edinburghs home form has been strong so no-one is under any illusions we'll be administering any wedgies... 4 points by any means necessary will do just fine!

Perhaps if we just send Ulster the five points now, accompanied by a stripper and a catering size box of Tunnock's Caramel Wafers, then they will promise not to hurt us.

Edit: thanks Notch.

VinceWLB wrote:Visser is the only player that i'm aware of who actually slows down going into contact. I hope they don't rely on him getting over the gainline! Burleigh has looked great though and has transformed the Edinburgh backline since his arrival. Toolis has been phenomenal and i hope he isn't rusty after a month without any gametime.

Not sure i agree with you on Coman, he is more like a Heaslip in terms of style (well the comparison ends here lol) but a ball carrier, he isn't.

Coman isn't the guy to pick and drive you some extra yards through traffic, but he's pretty good at shifting the point of contact so the tacklers don't just line him up. Denton is a run straight and hard so of number 8, Coman likes to use his footwork to wriggle over and Du Preez is basically a hybrid.

I do agree on Visser in terms of running into tacklers, but where is his good is running onto an offload or reverse pass. He's so terrified of contact that he tends to run hard and fast, so he either goes clean through, or someone gets to him and he skids his shorts throwing the ball helplessly into the air. It can go one of two ways.

George Carlin wrote:I am assuming that our Ulster fans are as confident as ever of administering an enema with a beach umbrella to this Edinburgh side, but I would welcome express confirmation of this.

Actually of our next 5 games I reckon this is the hardest

funnyExiledScot wrote:Given they simply announced their side and promptly moved onto a discussion of the Irish World Cup Squad, my take is that they weren't overly alarmed at the prospect of facing Neil Cochrane and Rory Sutherland.

Who..are they rugby players

George Carlin wrote:Perhaps if we just send Ulster the five points now, accompanied by a stripper and a catering size box of Tunnock's Caramel Wafers, then they will promise not to hurt us.

Edit: thanks Notch.

Who is "we" and "us"? Are you now speaking for the 1872 champions??

I fancied Ulster initially, but now I've seen the Edinburgh side I'm going to tip us for a narrow victory. The Ulstermen don't travel well and we are on a decent run of form. The Ospreys scoreline actually flattered them, and with Visser back we've got a bit more cutting edge out wide.

geoff999rugby wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Given they simply announced their side and promptly moved onto a discussion of the Irish World Cup Squad, my take is that they weren't overly alarmed at the prospect of facing Neil Cochrane and Rory Sutherland.

Who..are they rugby players

Remember the names....

With the team we have out I just feel that losing this is the end of Ulsters season. Without looking to disrespect Edinburgh this is a bloody strong team but we seem mentally fragile

At least this week we have got Stevenson out and that means only McComish is still there to do their level best to stop us scoring tries like last week

Even if we do lose this our season if a long way from being over.

Just look at Ospreys and Warriors run ins and Leinster are often awful during 6N as last week proved

My point is Geoff is that ulster side can't beat that Edinburgh side the season i have no hope. There's a flicker I can see that despite being worse than we have been in about 3/4 years with the final at ravers we may just be due some luck. I sincerely hope we don't waste this chance

Standulstermen wrote:My point is Geoff is that ulster side can't beat that Edinburgh side the season i have no hope. There's a flicker I can see that despite being worse than we have been in about 3/4 years with the final at ravers we may just be due some luck.  I sincerely hope we don't waste this chance

How ironic would that be?

Very very ironic.

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson will be the 4th Lock/6th backrower in the Irish squad.
Baring a shed load of injuries Diack will be nowhere near the squad

Schmidt can't afford to take 9 players to cover lock and backrow, unless World Rugby are allowing 31 man squads this year? He has to take 9 front-rows because of the restrictions so that leaves 8 to cover lock/backrow and 13 backs in a 30 man squad. Diack might not be great but he is the only player in the mix who has played all four positions.
So the RWC squad mix could be:
Starting Locks - POC, Toner
Bench Lock - Henderson
Starting backrow - POM, SOB, Heaslip
Bench backrow - Murphy
That leaves one squad place to cover all four positions for injury and start in the minnows games, so apart from Diack who else is there?

This is exactly whats happening this year. However, the extra spot will almost certainly be used in the front row. The change to have two front rows on the bench is the reason for it. Even still that leaves room for another back row and another lock in addition to those seven.

31-man squad

5 props
3 hookers
4 locks (including one who can cover back row)
5 backrows
3 scrum-halves
3 outhalves (including one who can cover centre)
3 centres
3 wingers
2 fullbacks

Please enlighten me - which Irish prop can cover both sides?

If we go with 6 props that leaves only 8 players for position 4 to 8

POC, Toner, Henderson, Ruddock, Henry, SOB, Heaslip, POM

geoff999rugby wrote:If we go with 6 props that leaves only 8 players for position 4 to 8

POC, Toner, Henderson, Ruddock, Henry, SOB, Heaslip, POM

Can't you just cut the number of backs required by taking Earls and Fitzgerald, who both cover 11-15??

The Great Aukster wrote:

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson will be the 4th Lock/6th backrower in the Irish squad.
Baring a shed load of injuries Diack will be nowhere near the squad

Schmidt can't afford to take 9 players to cover lock and backrow, unless World Rugby are allowing 31 man squads this year? He has to take 9 front-rows because of the restrictions so that leaves 8 to cover lock/backrow and 13 backs in a 30 man squad. Diack might not be great but he is the only player in the mix who has played all four positions.
So the RWC squad mix could be:
Starting Locks - POC, Toner
Bench Lock - Henderson
Starting backrow - POM, SOB, Heaslip
Bench backrow - Murphy
That leaves one squad place to cover all four positions for injury and start in the minnows games, so apart from Diack who else is there?

This is exactly whats happening this year. However, the extra spot will almost certainly be used in the front row. The change to have two front rows on the bench is the reason for it. Even still that leaves room for another back row and another lock in addition to those seven.

31-man squad

5 props
3 hookers
4 locks (including one who can cover back row)
5 backrows
3 scrum-halves
3 outhalves (including one who can cover centre)
3 centres
3 wingers
2 fullbacks

Please enlighten me - which Irish prop can cover both sides?

There's no need to enlighten you- thats how its most likely going to break down regardless of covering both sides. Two loose heads, three tight heads. Maybe three loose heads with McGrath as an emergency tight head. That makes more sense than only having one extra player to cover lock and back row from a potential injury perspective.

If you look at the squads in 2011 which were 30-man squads, most teams went with four props and the ones that went with five tended to take a calculated risk with taking just two scrum-halves. With the size of the squad, you take your calculated risk somewhere. I'm not sure you're going to see too many sides taking nine front rows.

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson will be the 4th Lock/6th backrower in the Irish squad.
Baring a shed load of injuries Diack will be nowhere near the squad

Schmidt can't afford to take 9 players to cover lock and backrow, unless World Rugby are allowing 31 man squads this year? He has to take 9 front-rows because of the restrictions so that leaves 8 to cover lock/backrow and 13 backs in a 30 man squad. Diack might not be great but he is the only player in the mix who has played all four positions.
So the RWC squad mix could be:
Starting Locks - POC, Toner
Bench Lock - Henderson
Starting backrow - POM, SOB, Heaslip
Bench backrow - Murphy
That leaves one squad place to cover all four positions for injury and start in the minnows games, so apart from Diack who else is there?

This is exactly whats happening this year. However, the extra spot will almost certainly be used in the front row. The change to have two front rows on the bench is the reason for it. Even still that leaves room for another back row and another lock in addition to those seven.

31-man squad

5 props
3 hookers
4 locks (including one who can cover back row)
5 backrows
3 scrum-halves
3 outhalves (including one who can cover centre)
3 centres
3 wingers
2 fullbacks

Please enlighten me - which Irish prop can cover both sides?

There's no need to enlighten you- thats how its most likely going to break down regardless of covering both sides. Two loose heads, three tight heads. Maybe three loose heads with McGrath as an emergency tight head. That makes more sense than only having one extra player to cover lock and back row from a potential injury perspective.

If you look at the squads in 2011 which were 30-man squads, most teams went with four props and the ones that went with five tended to take a calculated risk with taking just two scrum-halves. With the size of the squad, you take your calculated risk somewhere. I'm not sure you're going to see too many sides taking nine front rows.

I read somewhere recently that it is going to be 32 man squads for the world cup.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:If we go with 6 props that leaves only 8 players for position 4 to 8

POC, Toner, Henderson, Ruddock, Henry, SOB, Heaslip, POM

Can't you just cut the number of backs required by taking Earls and Fitzgerald, who both cover 11-15??

Earls and Fitzgerald are fighting over 1 spot with Jones, Olding and McFadden as it is

If fit Payne, Henshaw, Kearney, Bowe, Madigan, Sexton, Trimble and Zebo are almost certaintly on the plane.
That only leaves 2 other slots and I am 100% convinced one of those will go to another 10

Majestic that rings a bell with me too but cant find any details

Yep definitely read it somewhere but can't remember where or find it online. Would make sense to have a 32 man squad so that teams can take enough reserve props and gives an extra position to have cover as well, probably back row or centre!

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Henderson will be the 4th Lock/6th backrower in the Irish squad.
Baring a shed load of injuries Diack will be nowhere near the squad

Schmidt can't afford to take 9 players to cover lock and backrow, unless World Rugby are allowing 31 man squads this year? He has to take 9 front-rows because of the restrictions so that leaves 8 to cover lock/backrow and 13 backs in a 30 man squad. Diack might not be great but he is the only player in the mix who has played all four positions.
So the RWC squad mix could be:
Starting Locks - POC, Toner
Bench Lock - Henderson
Starting backrow - POM, SOB, Heaslip
Bench backrow - Murphy
That leaves one squad place to cover all four positions for injury and start in the minnows games, so apart from Diack who else is there?

This is exactly whats happening this year. However, the extra spot will almost certainly be used in the front row. The change to have two front rows on the bench is the reason for it. Even still that leaves room for another back row and another lock in addition to those seven.

31-man squad

5 props
3 hookers
4 locks (including one who can cover back row)
5 backrows
3 scrum-halves
3 outhalves (including one who can cover centre)
3 centres
3 wingers
2 fullbacks

Please enlighten me - which Irish prop can cover both sides?

There's no need to enlighten you- thats how its most likely going to break down regardless of covering both sides. Two loose heads, three tight heads. Maybe three loose heads with McGrath as an emergency tight head. That makes more sense than only having one extra player to cover lock and back row from a potential injury perspective.

If you look at the squads in 2011 which were 30-man squads, most teams went with four props and the ones that went with five tended to take a calculated risk with taking just two scrum-halves. With the size of the squad, you take your calculated risk somewhere. I'm not sure you're going to see too many sides taking nine front rows.

It's not about 'sense' it's about regulations. It was fine in 2011 to have four or five because there was only one on the bench, and there was always the possibility of going uncontested and still keep 15 players on the field. The prop position is almost always subbed during a game so having an "emergency" prop who can't cover his position, means even if the starter isn't injured they will have to play the full 80. Joe has already played Ross a full 80 to see if he can last, so he is no doubt trying that out, but if Ross or Moore get injured then he has to either immediately send him home to get a replacement or risk fielding a LH in the TH bench spot. The opposition would no doubt be making the starting prop's life especially difficult to force Joe's hand on that one and that could be the game gone right there.

Looking forward to seeing Henderson up to speed.

Ulster need to win this to have any chance of a home semi, but I suspect Edinburgh will be tough to crack. Ulster are seriously short of leaders and if they make a similar number of stupid decisions as they did against Treviso they will lose.

We've got someone called Nathan Fowles as our bench scrummie. Who he?

He's a young scrummie on loan from Sale Sharks.
He came through their youth set up and has played for them 17 times.
3 month loan.

Good luck, young person.

I'm expecting a tough game, but also expect Ulster to pull away in the 2nd half to edge the win.

SUFTUM!!

C'mon Edinburgh, if not for Glasgow then do it for Bru's stones.

How did the ref miss that forward pass...

Ulster wasteful and sloppy in possession, not chasing kicks effectively either.

Shocking from Ulster, Edinburgh gave us a lesson in chasing the kick.

Great try!!