Ulster 2014/2015, Part 4

First topic message reminder :

God we love the sound of our own voices.

Notch it could also be looked at as being a player desperate to prove his worth in a position trying to standout

I haven't seen Payne make any space for anyone so far. Defensively he has been superb, but creatively (it could be on instruction) he hasn't been that good.

Sin é wrote:I haven't seen Payne make any space for anyone so far. Defensively he has been superb, but creatively (it could be on instruction) he hasn't been that good.

Well, I haven't seen anyone make space for him. As much as the back three outside him rely on him to create space, he can't do that if the halfbacks inside him aren't doing the same thing for him. And they can't do that if the forwards aren't creating quick ball for them... and thats Irelands biggest problem and the one that all the others radiate out from.

Think some Ireland fans still give Payne at 13 a hard time with calls for Fitz or Earls there.
A look though the stats in

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-rucks-1971929-Mar2015/

At Rucks out of the Backs he arrived first more than any with 7 first arrivals (5 effective, 1 guard, 1 ineffective) thats more than Sean O’Brien who's job is to get to rucks first.

Jared Payne and Robbie Henshaw had 15 rucking involvements each, with the Ulsterman’s seven first arrivals standing out as particularly important [five of them were effective].

So while it appears Payne isn't making the breaks, he is doing a lot of the unseen dirty work, and appears he's doing it well letting Henshaw do more of the eye catching stuff. But we all know that Payne is well capable of the flashy stuff if there is a gap.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:I haven't seen Payne make any space for anyone so far. Defensively he has been superb, but creatively (it could be on instruction) he hasn't been that good.

Well, I haven't seen anyone make space for him. As much as the back three outside him rely on him to create space, he can't do that if the halfbacks inside him aren't doing the same thing for him. And they can't do that if the forwards aren't creating quick ball for them... and thats Irelands biggest problem and the one that all the others radiate out from.

That is why I'm advocating that he move to fullback. He might get more opportunities to be creative.

Kingshu wrote:Think some Ireland fans still give Payne at 13 a hard time with calls for Fitz or Earls there.
A look though the stats in

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-rucks-1971929-Mar2015/

At Rucks out of the Backs he arrived first more than any with 7 first arrivals (5 effective, 1 guard, 1 ineffective) thats more than Sean O’Brien who's job is to get to rucks first.

Jared Payne and Robbie Henshaw had 15 rucking involvements each, with the Ulsterman’s seven first arrivals standing out as particularly important [five of them were effective].

So while it appears Payne isn't making the breaks, he is doing a lot of the unseen dirty work, and appears he's doing it well letting Henshaw do more of the eye catching stuff. But we all know that Payne is well capable of the flashy stuff if there is a gap.

You make my point for me, all he does is hits rucks (which in fairness to him, he is probably instructed to do). Same with all the backs. You would expect the centres to be closest to rucks and so be first of the backs to arrive at them. You do Sean O'Brien an injustice in that he was only on for about 20 minutes v. England when he was replaced by Tommy O'Donnell who was outstanding and should probably not have been dropped for what I think a semi fit O'Brien.

Does anyone else hate the breaks in the league? Two weeks off now, and then again on the 3/4/5th and again on the 17/18/19th April.

Anyone want to explain? Is it just to minimise the game played without star players on Six Nations duty?

I do support Ireland, but results outside of the World Cup do not have me caring overly either way.

But seeing if Ulster can bounce back from poor form, that's what I'm really interested in right now. That and the return of Jackson/Olding/McCloskey.

LV cup (incase any welsh regions qualified for knockouts) and then Europe isn't it?

Double LV cup. Semi last weekend, final this. I guess there could be Irish v scots and Italian fixtures, but it would probably be too much hard work to figure that out along with other weekends.

dragon4life wrote:LV cup (incase any welsh regions qualified for knockouts) and then Europe isn't it?

So yes, you're spot on of course. I only skimmed the post above and only saw about the two week gap.

Kingshu wrote:Think some Ireland fans still give Payne at 13 a hard time with calls for Fitz or Earls there.
A look though the stats in

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-rucks-1971929-Mar2015/

At Rucks out of the Backs he arrived first more than any with 7 first arrivals (5 effective, 1 guard, 1 ineffective) thats more than Sean O’Brien who's job is to get to rucks first.

Jared Payne and Robbie Henshaw had 15 rucking involvements each, with the Ulsterman’s seven first arrivals standing out as particularly important [five of them were effective].

So while it appears Payne isn't making the breaks, he is doing a lot of the unseen dirty work, and appears he's doing it well letting Henshaw do more of the eye catching stuff. But we all know that Payne is well capable of the flashy stuff if there is a gap.

Schmidt plays Payne at 13 because he is his best option there. If Payne were to be injured then undoubtedly Henshaw would be moved to 13, so it doesn't look as though Fitzgerald or Earls are in contention.

Payne does get a hard time though because most Ulster fans think he should play 15, and the parochial nature of Irish rugby doesn't like project players either. George Hook's diatribe post match on him not being Irish was cringeworthy but not unrepresentative of plenty of fans views either.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Think some Ireland fans still give Payne at 13 a hard time with calls for Fitz or Earls there.
A look though the stats in

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-rucks-1971929-Mar2015/

At Rucks out of the Backs he arrived first more than any with 7 first arrivals (5 effective, 1 guard, 1 ineffective) thats more than Sean O’Brien who's job is to get to rucks first.

Jared Payne and Robbie Henshaw had 15 rucking involvements each, with the Ulsterman’s seven first arrivals standing out as particularly important [five of them were effective].

So while it appears Payne isn't making the breaks, he is doing a lot of the unseen dirty work, and appears he's doing it well letting Henshaw do more of the eye catching stuff. But we all know that Payne is well capable of the flashy stuff if there is a gap.

Schmidt plays Payne at 13 because he is his best option there. If Payne were to be injured then undoubtedly Henshaw would be moved to 13, so it doesn't look as though Fitzgerald or Earls are in contention.

Payne does get a hard time though because most Ulster fans think he should play 15, and the parochial nature of Irish rugby doesn't like project players either. George Hook's diatribe post match on him not being Irish was cringeworthy but not unrepresentative of plenty of fans views either.

What the heck is wrong with saying he doesn't approve of the project player thingy. I agree with him. Its far too short and I would prefer to see someone who has some connection to Ireland other than moving here for a well paid job playing in that position.

He then went on to say Payne was generally not a very good player as part of that diatribe, which is much more contentious. It was an interestingly timed rant- he'd obviously been saving it up for a loss when people are looking for scapegoats. But as a result of that, he said it after the first game where I genuinely thought Payne was the best performing player on the pitch in green. Only O'Connell seriously rivalled him for that accolade. He earned it for the wrong reasons, because a lot of our normal top performers had off days, but singling him out for criticism was laughable when other key players like Sexton, Best, Kearney, O'Mahony, O'Brien and Heaslip were below their usual high standards. But they're popular and have the right accent, so they get a free pass on it.

It was an incredibly stupidly timed diatribe that had been saved up for maximum effect and ignored the facts of how he was playing for conclusions about his ability based on a bias due to his accent and his passport. Sums up why Hook is so nauseating. Payne could have been the best player on the pitch full stop and he still would have trotted out the same lines.

George Hook said recently that he won't watch the RTE panel after he retires. I will only watch it consistently when he retires! I normally watch BBC and often when I do watch RTE I switch over to BBC at half-time. The only saving grace of watching it now is Ronan O'Gara and Shane Horgan not even trying to hide how little respect they have for him, which is quite funny. Of course, Tom McGurk is his obnoxious equal but I think he's retiring soon too so happy days.

clivemcl wrote:Does anyone else hate the breaks in the league? Two weeks off now, and then again on the 3/4/5th and again on the 17/18/19th April.

I'd love to see rugby 52 weeks a year if it was possible for players to stay at peak fitness and uninjured that long but the human body can only take so much punishment! These rest weeks are pretty important for players to recover.

Look at it this way, the breaks mean we and everybody else will have the highest chance of getting players in top condition for the run-in. If we had no breaks we'd have more injuries. There's a tipping point where if you play more games, the overall quality drops because the attrition on the body and mind takes a larger role. I think thats part of the reason the Top14 can be so turgid.

Paddy Jackson to play for the Ravens

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3401/Jackson-to-play-for-the-Ulster-Ravens-against-Munster-A.aspx

Humphreys reign of terror in the 10 shirt is over! For now...

Thank the baby Jebus for that.

Not so sure about Horgan - he incorrectly blamed Tommy Bowe for the missed tackle for the Welsh try. Eddie O'Sullivan corrected that misinformation on Against the Head blaming Heaslip. Horgan is not impartial.

Notch wrote:Paddy Jackson to play for the Ravens  

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3401/Jackson-to-play-for-the-Ulster-Ravens-against-Munster-A.aspx

Humphreys reign of terror in the 10 shirt is over! For now...

Anyone know who M Best is? We really have another 12 in our wider club?

Great knews about Paddy - still no sign of Ruaidhri Murphy. A long way down from news articles fighting for Aussie eligibility!

Sin é wrote:Not so sure about Horgan - he incorrectly blamed Tommy Bowe for the missed tackle for the Welsh try. Eddie O'Sullivan corrected that misinformation on Against the Head blaming Heaslip. Horgan is not impartial.

No, definitely not impartial but he's not bad. He falls into the trap of being a bit biased towards guys he played with.

Munster A v Ravens team:

Munster A: Johne Murphy; Andew Conway, Dan Goggin, Ivan Dineen, Luke O'Dea; Rory Scannell - capt., Neil Cronin; Peter McCabe, Kevin O'Byrne, Stephen Archer; Joe McSwiney, Donnacha Ryan; Shane Buckley, Sean Dougall, Paddy Butler.

Replacements: Niall Scannell, Liam O'Connor (Cork Constitution), John Ryan, Frank Bradshaw Ryan (Shannon), Ben Kilkenny (Young Munster), Jamie Glynn (Academy), Dave Johnston (Academy), Diarmuid McCarthy (Young Munster), Darren Sweetnam (Academy).

Munster 'A' v Ulster Ravens, Thursday March 19th 2015 at Nenagh Ormond RFC - KO 4:30pm.

That team should be too strong for the Ravens, but there are full internationals on both sides so it'll be good value for the 8 people in Nenagh who can actually go.

Ulster Ravens team & replacements to play Munster A, Interprovincial, Nenagh, Thursday 19th March (16:30 kick off):

(15-9): J Owens, R Andrew, M Stanley, M Best, R Scholes, P Jackson, P Marshall: (1-8): A Warwick, J Andrew, B Ross, L Stevenson (Captain), N McComb, F Taggart, S Reidy, R Diack; Replacements (16-23): P Jackson, D Ryan, R Lutton, S Mulholland, D Shanahan, M Heaney, K Joyce, J Rosborough.

By the way thats Paddy Jackson at 10, Paul Jackson on the bench as reserve hooker. They're brothers.

Is Jack Owens released from the u20s?

Yes, Dardis is at fullback, Gaffney and Fitzgerald on the wings and Stockdale is on the bench. No place for Owens in the 23 this week.

Notch wrote:That team should be too strong for the Ravens, but there are full internationals on both sides so it'll be good value for the 8 people in Nenagh who can actually go.

Ulster Ravens team & replacements to play Munster A, Interprovincial, Nenagh, Thursday 19th March (16:30 kick off):

(15-9): J Owens, R Andrew, M Stanley, M Best, R Scholes, P Jackson, P Marshall: (1-8): A Warwick, J Andrew, B Ross, L Stevenson (Captain), N McComb, F Taggart, S Reidy, R Diack; Replacements (16-23): P Jackson, D Ryan, R Lutton, S Mulholland, D Shanahan, M Heaney, K Joyce, J Rosborough.

By the way thats Paddy Jackson at 10, Paul Jackson on the bench as reserve hooker. They're brothers.

Plenty of school kids I'd imagine - its free entry.

Rory Scannell isn't really an out half, he plays more in the centre so the Ravens should win the halfback battle.
I wonder why Jack O'Donoghue (Munster As captain) isn't playing?

Notch wrote:Yes, Dardis is at fullback, Gaffney and Fitzgerald on the wings and Stockdale is on the bench. No place for Owens in the 23 this week.

Dardis can consider himself massively fortunate to be making the team

Yes Dardis has been very disappointing considering the hype surrounding him. He has made a few too many poor decisions to convince me he can translate his innate ability into a top pro rugby player.

Owens has been reassuringly solid but unspectacular so it's fair enough to give Gaffney a chance. The only standouts in the U20s have been Ringrose and McCall.

So what do people make of this BBCNI six nations show tomorrow night? Will it be good, or actually quite painful?  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31942605

Seems to be a tight affair in Nenagh. 13-12 at half time.

Ulster TH and Paddy Butler in the bin!

Archer in the bin 41 mins!
Ulster Try - now 13-17 (not converted). Looks like PJ is having a bad day with the boot.
Try Cronin 20-17.
Try Munster. 27-17.
Try Ulster (Penalty try from scrum) 27-24.

I think it won't be bad Clive, panel is a good one so should be interesting to see.
I think we would expect Paddy to be rusty with the boot Sin after being out so long. Sounds like a reasonable match there.

neilthom7 wrote:I think it won't be bad Clive, panel is a good one so should be interesting to see.  
I think we would expect Paddy to be rusty with the boot Sin after being out so long. Sounds like a reasonable match there.

Plenty of YCs doing the rounds. I like that in an interpro!

Ulster got 2 penalty tries!

So it seems Ulster lost 30-24 but scored four tries. I'll take that considering how poor the Ravens usually are.

Well that sounds like either the ref is a bit pernickety or it's a proper interpro lol Munster A win 30- 24 at full time according to Ulster Rugby Twitter page.

neilthom7 wrote:Well that sounds like either the ref is a bit pernickety or it's a proper interpro lol Munster A win 30- 24 at full time according to Ulster Rugby Twitter page.

I think the ref might have been a bit pernickety.

Fair enough although it is nice to see a full blooded A game it's what those guys really need if they are to step into pro 12 spots when called upon. Also won't hurt guys like Paddy Jackson and Donnacha Ryan to get as much full blooded game time as they can after injuries. We need Paddy now more than ever so he needs as much gametime as he can get

neilthom7 wrote:Fair enough although it is nice to see a full blooded A game it's what those guys really need if they are to step into pro 12 spots when called upon.  Also won't hurt guys like Paddy Jackson and Donnacha Ryan to get as much full blooded game time as they can after injuries.  We need Paddy now more than ever so he needs as much gametime as he can get

Hope it wasn't too full blooded - Donnacha Ryan came off after about 60 minutes with a bit of a knock (apparently not serious). I haven't heard of any other injuries.

Yes well there is an acceptable level of full bloodedness so it doesn't go to far lets hope it was at that level. The perfect balance between getting guys ready and not injuring them

Sounds like Munster couldn't deal with the Ulster driving lineout- one try for Bronson Ross off the back of a catch and drive and two penalty tries from similar positions for taking it down! Sounds like it was the only thing keeping us in the game actually.

Paddy Jackson played 40 minutes. Even if he's only on the bench next Friday I'll still rest easier knowing we can give Humphreys the shepherd's crook if he has another sloppy performance.

We've signed up four good young players- bemused about McCall, he seems to have fallen off the radar.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3414/Talented-quartet-sign-new-Ulster-contracts-.aspx

Notch wrote:Sounds like Munster couldn't deal with the Ulster driving lineout- one try for Bronson Ross off the back of a catch and drive and two penalty tries from similar positions for taking it down! Sounds like it was the only thing keeping us in the game actually.

Paddy Jackson played 40 minutes. Even if he's only on the bench next Friday I'll still rest easier knowing we can give Humphreys the shepherd's crook if he has another sloppy performance.

We've signed up four good young players- bemused about McCall, he seems to have fallen off the radar.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3414/Talented-quartet-sign-new-Ulster-contracts-.aspx

Notch have they not been moving McCall around the front row? Would maybe explain his lack of progress, especially after what was a decent debut against Leinster

Delighted we've kept a hold of Nelson and O'Connor especially. Both could be features of the Ulster team for some time.

With Jackson back, who do we still have injured? Or banned? Are we still missing our three best inside centres?

McCloskey and Marshall still banned. McCloskey back after the Blues game, Marshall back after the Connacht game. Olding still injured, I think, we'll see whether or not he's available for the Blues.

Tuohy is back fit, Diack seems to be back fit, Wilson is back from suspension, not sure if O'Connor is fit or not.

If Paddy isn't ready to come back, or if he's on the bench, I'd start Paul Marshall with Pienaar at 10. Stanley at 12. Ludik at full-back. Will the likes of Bowe and Best get a rest week?

If available,

9 Marshall
10 Pienaar
11 Gilroy
12 Stanley
13 Cave
14 Bowe
15 Ludik

20 Jackson (if not then Arnold)
21 Allen
22 Scholes

I think you might have forgotten about Payne there Clive

Really don't know what the policy will be on Bowe, Payne and Best. The game is only six days after the Scotland match so I'd be very surprised if they started after two really tough games in two weeks. Probably on the bench if they are back.

You'd imagine Henderson will be available to start though which will be interesting in terms of selection with him, Tuohy, van der Merwe, Wilson, Diack and Williams all available together for almost the first time this season. I'm sure he'll play but I'm not sure where he'll play.

We have a week off after next weeks game due to Europe. A bit stop start as you were saying earlier.

I would say we are looking at

Black, Herring, Herbst, van der Merwe, Tuohy, Henderson, Ross, Wilson, Pienaar, Jackson, Gilroy, Stanley, Cave, Scholes, Ludik

Best, Warwick, Ross, Diack, Williams, Marshall, Payne, Bowe

Could easily be van der Merwe on the bench, Henderson and Tuohy together and Diack at blindside.

Notch wrote:I think you might have forgotten about Payne there Clive

Doesn't he play for Leinster yet?

Yea my bad, you would think 12Cave 13 Payne then if the internationals are allowed to start.

Its a strange one, can IRFU make demands on rest games? I say give them the rest AFTER the Blues, where theres a natural break in the fixture calendar.

Full strength team potentially. Best squad availability all season pretty much bar our young 12s and Trimble.

Imagine fielding...

Black, Best, Herbst, Henderson, Tuohy, Diack, Wilson, Williams, Pienaar, Jackson, Gilroy, Cave, Payne, Bowe, Ludik

Herring, Warwick, Ross, Van Der Merve, Ross, Marshall, Stanley, Scholes

I think the IRFU determine how many minutes and games they can play and its up to Ulster to decide when they play but this is one of the comparatively easier games in our run-in, they'll be recovering form a very tough game in Edinburgh and they haven't been in the Ulster environment for two months.

For me, it makes sense if they are rested for this one but who knows... one thing is for sure, if we can get 5 points in this game it will make our lives a lot easier.

I doubt that Bowe will be back this week anyway as he will be on his stag party.
I expect all the starters for Ireland will be given at least a week off

Its a difficult one though. IF we are not under any official restrictions - it is tempting to strike while the other teams are perhaps still resting their internationals. I mean two weeks off for everyone after Friday night. I'm sure these athletes can manager another game 6 days later before a well earned break.

Blues is the remaining game in which we are most likely to nab a bonus point win. Surely we need to do everything in our power to grab these chances.

That said - Notch may have a point that the rest of the squad may be more well used with each other at present says the internationals have been absent from training.

Wouldn't even consider playing Bowe, Best or Payne - not if we want them in one piece and on top form for the end of the season - that was a brutal championship. It's not about having 6 days to recover, you couldn't see these guys being ready for full training for a few days at least....

Henderson should be in good shape though.

More good news;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3424/Olding-set-to-make-injury-return-against-Cardiff-.aspx

He's gotta start.

I think the most interesting aspect will be how the back five of the pack shakes out.

Van Dr Merwe, Tuohy, Henderson, Ross, Wilson is how I'd start. I'd be tempted to have Diack and Williams on the bench. Williams to run at tired legs, Diack to shoulder a load of work.

Thats what I would go with too, understandable if it's Henderson on the bench and Diack to start though.

I think Van Der Merwe will definitely start given his responsibility for the lineout and the fact he's been with Ulster and Tuohy and Henderson have been away these past two weeks, but his place has got to be under serious threat. I suppose the fact the other two guys would have more impact off the bench will count in his favour.